Magazine Disconnect Safties???

[dannyeller]

Except for putting certain degenerate traits on public display, I firmly believe in the "for each their own". But for the life of me I can't see the wisdom in the hatred for mag disconnect safeties. I was in the military for 25 years and in law enforcement for five and still would be in law enforcement if it were not for the 20 plus years of jumping out of airplanes (body parts no longer agree with fight'n drunks). This in addition to 20 some years of competitive shooting of some kind. In all that time almost ALL, I say again almost "ALL" accidental/negligent discharges (ADs/NDs) with some causing either life altering injuries and some deaths were the sole result of the shooter taking the magazine out of the pistol after racking the slide (or not racking the slide at all) and then either shooting themselves or someone else by accident. Even when no one was injured the ramifications were usually career altering to say the least. A simple mag disconnect safety would have prevented each and every one of them. Such things as Loaded Chamber Indicators (LCI) (an external extractor works as one anyway) and mandatory safeties on double action types of firearms are mandated by people who do not know what they are doing. But the mag safeties are a good thing. I would pay $50 to $75 right now to have one installed on all three of my Glocks and both of my Kahrs if they were available.

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women. Not that some can't use them to great effect but MOST women have trouble racking the slide. Especially .380s and smaller calibers, since most of them work on a blow back type action they have much heavier recoil springs than even a .45. They can do things like cocking the hammer if the pistol has one before trying the rack the slide but remember these things are to be used in a time of stress. At least if a woman or a weak wrist-ed male (could be due to an injury or age related illness and not the lack of testosterone) can make a semi-auto ready in a non-stressed environment and then just take out the magazine to render the gun safe. They could then just insert the mag to make the gun ready just as fast if not faster than racking a pump shotgun.

The only magazine disconnect I've ever had an issue with was on a Brit colleague's Highpower when we were working together in Iraq. That particular mag disconnect safety would prevent the magazine from falling out of the weapon during a quick reload and you had to stick your finger way up the magwell to push a protruding button before you could drop the hammer. Which was required as part of a weapons clearing procedure before entering certain areas.

The reasons given as justifications against mag disconnect safeties just do not make since to me. If I am holding someone at gunpoint (unless the slide is locked back) the last thing I'm going to do is a reload. Just don't see it... And the wisdom of being able to use the pistol as a magazineless single shot just does not make up for the overwhelming number of ADs and NDs that occur with semi-auto handguns, period. Each one of those ADs and NDs is just another arrow in the quiver of those socialist, Godless bastards that want to take our firearms away.

But if you have bought it then I have no problem with you disabling it for your use. But be warned... You have... say again.... YOU HAVE sharpened the very blade those socialist, Godless bastards mentioned earlier are gong to use to cut your heart out, even if your shooting incident is 100% justified.

[tv_racin_fan]

Negligent Discharges wont occur if you don't have a firearm, sir. I suggest you sell all of your firearms, that way the threat of a Negligent Discharge will be reduced.

[O'Dell]

I can't say that I disagree. I've had several pistols over the years with the disconnect safety, and the only one that I felt was a problem was on a Hi-Power. It can cause a problem on a Ruger P345 when dry-firing, but if you know this, don't dry fire w/o an empty mag in the gun. It's in the manual.

In 45 years of pistol shooting I've never had a ND, but my son did with my PM45. If that Kahr had had a mag disconnect safety it would not have happened. Fortunately, the only casualty was a wall light switch.

[RenegadeRebel]

I'm going to assume this post was in response to my thread earlier?

Well if it is, I have a rebuttal to make. First and foremost, I think you should have ended your post at "to each his own."

What you may find "necessary" or "safe," others may find a hassle, or even a down right burden and absolute risk.

Well it may be true that a mag disconnect could potentially prevent some types of ND's; I think the cons truly outweigh the pros. Like you said with your buddy's high power; sometimes the device WILL malfunction and cause the magazine to stick into the gun. This actually happened twice to me when I first took my gun out during the 200 round break in. The metal disconnect gets caught between the magazine body and the frame of the gun, and makes it very difficult to remove the magazine. Its also possible for the disconnect to be caught in such a way that it is still disengaged when it is trapped. That would have much more dire consequences then just a stuck magazine.

Can you imagine if either of those things happened in the middle of a gun fight? When mere seconds matter, it could surely mean the end of your life.

Point is, the more moving parts, the higher the propensity that mechanical failure will occur. I for one like simplicity in my guns. While it is true that a semi is complex in nature; there is still no need to further muddy the waters with superfluous devices.

Another negative against disconnects: They apply constant downward spring pressure on the magazine. If I needed to reload in a stress environment, its possible that the magazine wouldn't seat correctly and I could have a malfunction.

Your argument about women using a mag disconnect to their advantage sounds pretty good in theory; but loading a magazine is a fine motor skill just like cocking a slide, and in the heat of the moment, magazines can be fumbled, dropped, and inserted backwards just to name a few things that can go wrong. What happens if pretty Nancy, or frail Tim, drops the needed magazine under the bed when he tries to insert it from a deep sleep in the dark? What if they cant find it when they need it most?

An easier method would be to just leave the gun loaded with the hammer down. If its a striker fired handgun, then you can just leave it with the slide locked to the rear. Simply hitting the slide release when you hear the bump in the night is much easier than fumbling with a magazine in the dark.

While I agree with you that while holding someone at gunpoint would not be an opportune time to reload; being in the middle of a gun fight is certainly another case. If I have fired several shots, and know I am at the far tail end of my magazine, a tactical reload would be a smart choice if you have the chance. To me that is smarter then letting your gun run dry. If after I dropped my magazine, a threat presents itself, then I would need to deal with it accordingly. That would be impossible with a magazine disconnect in place.

Lastly, I'm a little confused about your last statement. "YOU HAVE sharpened the very blade those socialist, Godless bastards mentioned earlier are gong to use to cut your heart out."

What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying it is certain I will have a ND now that I have removed my disconnect? Please explain.

[dannyeller]

Negligent Discharges wont occur if you don't have a firearm, sir. I suggest you sell all of your firearms, that way the threat of a Negligent Discharge will be reduced.

No I won't sell all my firearms SIR!

And after 25 years in the Army, five years as a Law Enforcement Officers and during my 20 something years of competitive shooting I have never had either an AD or ND. But I have witnessed them. And I have witnessed them on rare occasions done by people that were expert shooters and some from people that use a gun for their living. I still just do not think but know that magazine disconnect safeties would absolutely prevent many of those tragedies that the socialist, Godless anti-gun crowd will use to take our freedoms away.

So SIR, just put your head back in the sand and leave it there since you brought nothing intelligent to the discussion.

[dannyeller]

RenegadeRebel,

No I did not assume that you would have an AD or ND. My statement is based on fact that has been proven time after time. The mere fact that you have disable a safety devise even one as useless as a LCI (Again useless since external extractors serve as one anyway) you have opened the door to those that will use that against you in the legal ramifications that will surely follow any Self Defense use of your firearm, REGARDLESS how justified that use was.

I'm not saying that is right, I am saying that is what will happen, period. There are a lot of people out there backed up with big money just looking for the opportunity to crucify any one of us who uses our firearms for self-defense. And California has a LOT more of them than most places. The ones in charge of California believe in the British model that we have no right to self defense. That even if your family is attacked you must retreat and wait for the police. That is the ultimate goal of the damn socialist Godless bastards that I mentioned. We need to be careful not to put the arrows in their quivers to use against us.

Just think about it. How many of you would want a 2lb trigger on your pocket pistol? Would that really be such a good idea? I'm not saying that no handgun should have a 2lb trigger but it is just not smart for even the best pistoleros to have such on a SD pocket pistol. Same argument goes in favor of Mag Disconnect Safeties. For a home defense gun and even for Police carry they make a lot of sense were as a 2lb trigger would not, period. Some years ago when I paid better attention to such things 1 out of 5 police officers killed in the line of duty were killed with their own weapon. Several Police officers owe their life to their ability to drop the mag during the struggle for their gun so that they could disengage from the wrestling match and deal with the threat with their back-up.

Again I say, I just do not understand what certainly appears to me to be an irrational hatred for Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Yes there are some like on the Highpower I mentioned that are designed to hamper quick mag reloads and are cumbersome to deal with. But there are several other designs out there that you have no idea they are present until you pull the trigger with no magazine. I encourage all gun manufactures to put those types into their guns and as I stated those that don't want them are usually smart enough to figure out how to disable them... but... maybe not smart enough to know that it would not be all that good an idea.

Sorry if I sound a little brash. The earlier post saying I should sell my firearms put me in a bad mood.

[RenegadeRebel]

There is no law saying I cant modify my gun as I see fit. Please name me one case where a person was charged with a crime because they used a gun that had been modified in self defense.

Whether the modification was a lighter trigger, disabling safeties, or what-have-you. Please cite one reputable source where the shoot was justified, but the shooter served time because of the modifications he did to his gun.

Maybe, MAYBE, I could understand your point if I did something like modify my glock 17 into a full auto glock 18 without a permit. But any other modification could easily be justified by any half witted lawyer.

Lets take your example of a 2 pound trigger. Say the prosecutor brings to light your ultra easy to use "hair finger kill trigger," the argument against that would be that it doesn't matter if the trigger is 20 pounds or 2; either way it needed to be pulled to kill the bad guy; so ease of pulling it does not matter. Unless he would have been 18 pounds less dead with the heavy trigger or something??

Same with the disconnect. The magazine was going to be in the gun no matter what if the guy was shot dead right (esp if more then one shot was used)? So what should it matter if I disabled a safety that was going to be disabled by default any way when I pulled the trigger and emptied my magazine in his chest?

Face it, you said it yourself, you were a Army man and a LEO, not a judge or a lawyer. You have no idea if those things would put me in a hot spot in court; thats just what you THINK might happen...Unless like I said earlier you can cite me a concrete example of such an incident.

[jocko]

:popcorn::popcorn:

u just can't beat front row seats:banplease:

[dannyeller]

Renegade, Your right for the most part on there is no law (that I know of) that states you cannot disable you firearm's safety. However, I have spent numerous hours in courts listening to the dribble put out by Civil attorneys and sometimes prosecutors. And to think that they would not make hay out of a disable safety on a gun you used to shoot one of their clients family members with you are just fooling yourself. This is not about what is law or even what is wrong or right. It is just what will happen if you use a firearm no matter how justified the circumstances. I haven't seen them do it on firearms yet but I have seen some attorney actually get money for a client whose now dead adult son bought two cases of beer from a grocery store then ran off the road after drinking most of it. That incident and many others showing attorneys using idiotic arguments that have no bases in fact and getting away with it. Even if they did not win you are still screwed, period. The least that will happen is that you'll walk out of court with your pockets a year or two lighter than when it started. My personal observations prove to me that the horror stories told by Mas Ayoob of such issues while being an expert witness on numerous trials are true.

See: http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html

Mas has published numerous articles discussing his testimony were the issues of gun modifications and type of ammunition used became serious problems for both civilians and police officers involved in shootings during several cases.

To me this just makes sense. I can understand that you want to do something and just don't like it when someone points out the problems with that decision. Again I say if you bought it you can modify it. But I am not just convinced but know beyond a doubt that it is just not a good idea to disable any of a guns safeties. Either for practical reasons or for reasons that could cost you your life's savings after a court judgement against you. And remember Torts do not have to be against any law to cost you a bundle.

[jocko]

In my older age, I have learned that one should not try to push his beliefs on another. It is always nice to present ones thoughts but leave it at that. to many scenarios come into play with this topic and one court case doesn't mean jack sh-t one way or the other. One can sue over damn near anything today.

If one feels a certain way about how he wants to carry his gun etc, then he should just do it ..99.995% of all of us on this forumn are not going to be in any shooting conflict, so what we do to our guns be they good or not is a personal thing that is not really going to effect anyone anyhow. Just my 2 cents.

I ran out of popcorn,so I had to make a comment!!

[MW surveyor]

Man, I gotta stay up later!

I believe tv's statement was partially made in jest and partly the possible result in the antis way of thinking as a way to get rid of civilian gun ownership.

This is all from me. I don't have a dog in this hunt with the exception of how the results of a gun modification could be used against you in a court of law. Remember that the laws are not enforced for justice but whatever interpretation that may happen in a particular case.

[500KV]

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/500KV_album/beat-dead-horse.gif

I’m not a huge fan of a loaded gun giving a false negative to the shooter. A gun with a round in the chamber and the magazine removed IS still loaded, but unable to fire, but will suddenly become “hot” with the introduction of an empty magazine, or the failure of the disconnect.
There is just no way this feature can be considered good.

[Indigo]

If I had a nickel for every time someone on here passionately tried to convince others their way of doing things was right and changed people's minds then I guess I'd have zero nickels. What you are calling facts are just mere observations subject to personal bias. Watch your step getting off that soapbox.

[CS534]

Magazine safeties to prevent ad's or nd's, or thumb safeties to prevent the same. A heavy trigger pull, or long double action. My friends, my fellow brothers of liberty and freedoms, we are losing sight of the real issues here: training. The first basic rules of handling a firearm, the 4 rules of gun safety, and repetition and practice with your weapon. Those are the safeties that every gun needs to be handled with. Unless one is trained properly and is totally aware of the powers and outcomes of handling firearms, accicents can and will occur.

Each of us have our own feelings about gun control, safeties and such. I know I have mine. But, opinions are just that. They are freedoms to be expressed amongst others. They are shared so others can view your insight. They are that and only that. Once your points are made, and if made with conviction and logic, they deserve respect. I appreciate all of the inputs on this forum. I am confident that I will use each and every one of them to form my own opinion to share with you.

[ripley16]

I'm somewhat neutral on the subject in that I neither need nor want any safety on a firearm other than a drop safety, but use pistols that have these features. The few pistols I have with magazine disconnects annoy me at times when handling them, but the annoyance is easily remmedied by inserting a mag.

Whether a pistol has a disconnect or not shouldn't matter in the case of unintentionally shooting one. If a person is careless enough to not clear a deadly weapon, then IMO, no mechanical safety made is protection from stupidity.

I know many people carry reloads. I don't, so whether the gun will fire with or without a magazine is a moot point in my case. The mag stays in no matter what. If I run out of ammo, then the mag makes the gun that much heavier a club with which to smack an adversary.

I prefer as few safeties as possible. Having said that, I confess I carried a Beretta 84 for many years, and it is loaded with safeties. The Beretta's unbreakable nature and perfect performance overroad my distaste for safety features. Safeties or not, a perfectly competent firearm is the most important feature.

Each person needs to find their own comfort zone and stay within it's boundaries. Proficiency and familiarity with one's choice of firearm are the most important factors in remaining safe, IMHO.

[CJB]

Its somewhat interesting to note - The first US Army "Description, Pistol, Model 1911" (from pre-WWI) fully advocated carrying the pistol cocked, with the safety applied. Later, in the WWII era and later, the US Army advocated carrying the pistol uncocked on a loaded chamber, by lowering the hammer after loading. And now days, the practice of civilian shooters tends to be an increasing number of them carrying cocked, with the safety applied. From horseback to HumVee - things go full circle it seems.

[CJB]

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women.

Eleven years of range duty told me that a good majority of females do not have the strength, or dexterity for certain firearms.

The tip-barrel Beretta automatics, being double action, having a tip barrel, do not require racking the slide, and given proper training, those seemed to do well for females (and some males) with hand strength and dexterity deficiency.

Similarly, I have advocated hammerless, double action only, revolvers for the same group. The problem being, an external hammer revolver, once cocked, must be safely decocked if one intends to not shoot it. Some folks have a real problem with that, and if they do, the exposed hammer revolver is not for them.

The AD/NDs cited, were all ND's. Negligent operation of the mechanism resulted in an unexpected discharge. AD's are more like - holstering discharges, the infamous S&W dirty safety discharge (while dropping hammer with the decocking safety), or while trying to manually lower the hammer on a Browning HP or 1911, that sort of thing. Racking the slide, then removing the (loaded) magazine is not an accident. Its stupidity, idiocy, or at best, a total lapse in the required attention needed when performing a potentially lethal maneuver. In short - those folks has S..T for brains, at least momentarily. No safety will help folks like that. The same group is also prone to the "I though the safety was on" type of ND. How the military, or PD's, deal with the cross segment of the populace, which must include those idiots, as their own membership, is beyond me. No amount of rule making, supervision, or training will totally eliminate the mechanically inept from doing something that has bad consequences.

[O'Dell]

There is no law saying I cant modify my gun as I see fit. Please name me one case where a person was charged with a crime because they used a gun that had been modified in self defense.

Whether the modification was a lighter trigger, disabling safeties, or what-have-you. Please cite one reputable source where the shoot was justified, but the shooter served time because of the modifications he did to his gun.

Maybe, MAYBE, I could understand your point if I did something like modify my glock 17 into a full auto glock 18 without a permit. But any other modification could easily be justified by any half witted lawyer.

Lets take your example of a 2 pound trigger. Say the prosecutor brings to light your ultra easy to use "hair finger kill trigger," the argument against that would be that it doesn't matter if the trigger is 20 pounds or 2; either way it needed to be pulled to kill the bad guy; so ease of pulling it does not matter. Unless he would have been 18 pounds less dead with the heavy trigger or something??

Same with the disconnect. The magazine was going to be in the gun no matter what if the guy was shot dead right (esp if more then one shot was used)? So what should it matter if I disabled a safety that was going to be disabled by default any way when I pulled the trigger and emptied my magazine in his chest?

Face it, you said it yourself, you were a Army man and a LEO, not a judge or a lawyer. You have no idea if those things would put me in a hot spot in court; thats just what you THINK might happen...Unless like I said earlier you can cite me a concrete example of such an incident.

First off I agree with Jocko - it's a "to each his own" issue. Personally, a disconnect safety doesn't bother me except in the case of the Hi-Power I bought 45 years ago and never shoot. I am use to thumb safeties and I actual prefer them if given a choice such as in my M&P, but again, I am used to them. All things considered, I would not eliminate a purchase because of the absence of one.

Second, I am or was a lawyer, but I quit the law twenty years ago. I do not recall a case involving the absence of a safety or a modified gun resulting in a problem for a shooter, but gun cases were much rarer back then. I do recall several ridiculous verdicts involving defense attorneys and prosecutors though. One in California [of course] involved a teenager stealing a motorcycle from a carport. He had never ridden a bike before, and predictably fell off soon after and was badly injured. His lawyer sued Honda and Bell Helmets, then a major player, even though he stole the bike, was inexperienced, and was not wearing a helmet. He won the case against Bell, because the court ruled that Bell should have advised him to wear a helmet. WHAT!!! He also won against Honda, but I don't remember the exact ruling. Fortunately, common sense won out in the end under appeal, but it goes to show what can happen.

[jocko]

O'dell, civil suits as u know are alot different tha criminal. If a ol lady can buy a cup of hot coffee at McDonalds and then spill it in her lap and then sue because it was to hot,, well u get my point.
When I had my motorcycle wreck last sept, I had 3 unsloicited contacts from attorneys I never heard of wanting to talok to me about my accident. To this day I have no idea how they even found out about it as it never even made the papers.

when I sent my M & P into Dasvid Bowie of Bowie tactical, supposably one of the best Smith guru's around, He call ed me and said, u didn't mention in ur instruction about taking out the mag disconnet. AII had not given it any thought, His comment was u don't want that fokking thing in this gun. So I said OK. He did send back all the parts. I have no idea why I told him that either, as I had not had one issue with the disconnect for any reasons, but I went along with the "guru".

Sometimes I think the biggest disconnect is WHAT IS BETWEEN OUR EARS. These gun companies more than likely don't want to put all those safety thingS in their guns but with todays litigators and many people who really should not be owning a gun, they error on the side of caution.

This newer generation of gun owners, like my son will accept these changes, for they know not better, so for them and certainly for women, they probably welcome those features. Most of us are older in lfe and todays technology and kids today are passing us faster than we can fart. Hel lI do good to just work my computer to get on these damn gun forums, where as my son could build a computer. Such is life. I am 67 he is 23, alot of water has went over the damn in my 44 years of living when he was not even thought about. Almost like alot of war stories, just something we don't talk about to the younger generation, for basically THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT... Hell my dad used to tell me about the great depression and how he would go to the landfills and look for discarded old tires that he could fix up and maybe get 50-100 miles out of it before it went sour for good. I found that very hard to understand as I was not a depression eria child.

Now I am beginning to sound like Deitrich, "RAMBLING"

[Bawanna]

We have an attorneys office that has a constant public information request for every accident report we create. Every single one.

They somehow publish this information (sell it) to other ambulance chasers to look for potential cases.

The leader had some health problems apparently and it stopped for a few years but recently it started up again. It's a pain to make copies even though we just do it as we process since we know it's coming.

I'm so ticked I got a supoena to testify in a stolen gun possesion case. Happened once before. I told them I'd never inspect another gun for that purpose. They promised me this time I wouldn't be called. All it is for is to tell them its a functioning firearm. I wrote a detailed report. The defense attorney can read it, the judge can read it. But NOOOOO I gotta drive half an hour and spend a couple hours sitting outside a court room to be called in and say yes it's a working gun. The judge will dimiss me in two minutes and do the drive back to work.

Frontier justice just sounds appealing to me.

[tv_racin_fan]

No I won't sell all my firearms SIR!

And after 25 years in the Army, five years as a Law Enforcement Officers and during my 20 something years of competitive shooting I have never had either an AD or ND. But I have witnessed them. And I have witnessed them on rare occasions done by people that were expert shooters and some from people that use a gun for their living. I still just do not think but know that magazine disconnect safeties would absolutely prevent many of those tragedies that the socialist, Godless anti-gun crowd will use to take our freedoms away.

So SIR, just put your head back in the sand and leave it there since you brought nothing intelligent to the discussion.

Apparently you don't get it. The instances of supposed ACCIDENTAL DICHARGE you mentioned were all NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES. SURE the persons did not mean for the gun to go off BUT THEY PULLED THE TRIGGER.

When I am looking at a firearm and my wife asks to take a peek I remind her that the first thing she must do even after seeing that I made sure it was not loaded is to make sure it aint loaded. Gremlins might have gotten it between her and I and loaded it... The guys at the local gun shop always check to be sure a firearm isn't loaded when they hand them to me to look at and the first thing I do is check to make sure they are not loaded then when I hand the firearm to my son or wife the first thing they do is make sure.

[RenegadeRebel]

O'dell, civil suits as u know are alot different tha criminal. If a ol lady can buy a cup of hot coffee at McDonalds and then spill it in her lap and then sue because it was to hot,, well u get my point.
When I had my motorcycle wreck last sept, I had 3 unsloicited contacts from attorneys I never heard of wanting to talok to me about my accident. To this day I have no idea how they even found out about it as it never even made the papers.

when I sent my M & P into Dasvid Bowie of Bowie tactical, supposably one of the best Smith guru's around, He call ed me and said, u didn't mention in ur instruction about taking out the mag disconnet. AII had not given it any thought, His comment was u don't want that fokking thing in this gun. So I said OK. He did send back all the parts. I have no idea why I told him that either, as I had not had one issue with the disconnect for any reasons, but I went along with the "guru".

Sometimes I think the biggest disconnect is WHAT IS BETWEEN OUR EARS. These gun companies more than likely don't want to put all those safety thingS in their guns but with todays litigators and many people who really should not be owning a gun, they error on the side of caution.

This newer generation of gun owners, like my son will accept these changes, for they know not better, so for them and certainly for women, they probably welcome those features. Most of us are older in lfe and todays technology and kids today are passing us faster than we can fart. Hel lI do good to just work my computer to get on these damn gun forums, where as my son could build a computer. Such is life. I am 67 he is 23, alot of water has went over the damn in my 44 years of living when he was not even thought about. Almost like alot of war stories, just something we don't talk about to the younger generation, for basically THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT... Hell my dad used to tell me about the great depression and how he would go to the landfills and look for discarded old tires that he could fix up and maybe get 50-100 miles out of it before it went sour for good. I found that very hard to understand as I was not a depression eria child.

Now I am beginning to sound like Deitrich, "RAMBLING"

Actually Jocko, I am only 21 and I flat out refuse all the silly "modern" safeties put on new guns...But I may be the exception...

The rest of what you said is spot on though! :cool:

[dannyeller]

If I had a nickel for every time someone on here passionately tried to convince others their way of doing things was right and changed people's minds then I guess I'd have zero nickels. What you are calling facts are just mere observations subject to personal bias. Watch your step getting off that soapbox.

You talking to me?... I don't see anyone else here...

Ohh... Sorry... you must be referring to Renegade.

Did I mention that I just don't understand the reasoning behind all the hatred for Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Still don't...

Unless it is of poor design like the mentioned HighPower I still just don't think but know they are a good thing that would help us in our fight against the socialist, Godless bastards I referred to while also going a long way in saving some of our less trained brothers and sisters a lot of pain. And again... I've seen very trained and intelligent have an AD/AD. One was in Iraq. As we were walking into a HQ area a Marine LTC who I was working with cleared his long gun and then in transitioning to clearing his M9 he racked and released his mag rather than the other way around. Bang... I considered it a training success since the bullet went into the clearing barrel and not someone's ass inside the HQ. Unfortunately others did not see it the same way I did. This guy shot competitively, was a seasoned Combat Veteran who now carries a gun as a commercial pilot. I have a lot of respect for him. He was in no way a dummy. But he handled guns constantly and got complacent. That is one incident that I think helps keep me on my toes with such matters.

Another was when I was assigned to take some techie guys to various places around Baghdad. They were doing critical VERY important work. But I could tell just in the first few moments that as technical proficient as they were in their very special work that they didn't know crap about pistols. The incident with the Marine LTC still fresh in my mind (who was corralled after his incident which hurt us and our efforts as much as it hurt him) I did a lot of side bar training on the safe usage of the Techies M9s. I paid very close attention at the clearing barrel and in a blink of an eye one of them Racked and dropped mag. I was able to put my hand on the top of the M9 in time to catch the hammer with the web of my hand. As painful as it was it saved me a lot of embarrassment on the quality of my training. Yes I walked them through the steps several times and had them perform it in front of me several times without making a mistake but this still happened.

Again I say if you bought it then you should be able to disable it if you want to. You're all big boys capable of taking the consequences of your actions. But I still think that this vitriol and unreasonable hatred for well designed Magazine Disconnect Safeties influences companies like Kahr and Glock to not make them available to those of us who like things like "circuit breakers" and think such things are good and that they help keep the socialist, Godless bastards from limiting the amount of AMPS coming into our homes for our own safety.

[RenegadeRebel]

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/500KV_album/beat-dead-horse.gif

I’m not a huge fan of a loaded gun giving a false negative to the shooter. A gun with a round in the chamber and the magazine removed IS still loaded, but unable to fire, but will suddenly become “hot” with the introduction of an empty magazine, or the failure of the disconnect.
There is just no way this feature can be considered good.

You bring up a very good point. Lets say a person is messing around with a hot gun (1 in the chamber, but no magazine inserted) doing holster drills, or pointing drills, or changing some parts; what ever. That person already thinks the gun is empty and safe; and since we already know this person doesn't have the knack for checking the chamber (or else the gun would have never been unknowingly hot in the first place), then when this person puts his EMPTY magazine in; it only further reaffirms his belief that the gun is safe empty. Then he goes to do some dry firing drills after his holster drills, or he does a function test after he changed his parts; and KABOOM!

Magazine disconnects wont prevent ND's, they will only delay them. What do you think about that Danny?

[tv_racin_fan]

Nothing will help in the fight against those who wish firearms were never invented...

[RenegadeRebel]

You talking to me?... I don't see anyone else here...

Ohh... Sorry... you must be referring to Renegade.

Did I mention that I just don't understand the reasoning behind all the hatred for Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Still don't...

Unless it is of poor design like the mentioned HighPower I still just don't think but know they are a good thing that would help us in our fight against the socialist, Godless bastards I referred to.

One more thing; those socialist bastards you speak of are real. They are coming for our guns. Those things you are correct about.

One thing you are wrong about though, is that they are coming for our guns NO MATTER WHAT! They dont need a rhyme or a reason. It wouldn't matter if not a single ND happened ever again starting today. They would find a different reason to take them. They are going to attempt to disarm us and there is nothing we can do to make them change their minds.

Putting more safeties and crap into our guns only makes THEM more safe when they try to kick down our doors and raid our gun safes!

[RenegadeRebel]

Nothing will help in the fight against those who wish firearms were never invented...

LOL you beat me to it!

[BuckeyeBlast]

Well this thread is pointless. Pointless because while everyone has an opinion, some think that theirs are fact. So, I'll go ahead and throw my pointless .02 into this thread before it degenerates even further and gets locked.

I don't care. I don't care because most of us have the ability to decide whether to purchase a firearm with or without one. Most of us have the ability to choose whether to remove or maintain one. Choice, freedom, personal responsibility. I don't believe for a minute that giving up choice, freedom, or personal responsibility will help us to keep any of them.

[TheTman]

The only pistol I have with a magazine disconnect is a Star Model 30 9mm. A great sturdy gun, but I hate the magazine disconnect. It actually got me in trouble with a range officer once. I was in a competition, and your gun had to be empty, with no mag, so I dropped the mag, cleared the chambered round, but couldn't drop the hammer. Right then they called my name to come shoot, and I didn't have time to put a mag in and drop the hammer, they were on a tight schedule, and when they saw me walking up with the hammer cocked the range officer about had a cow. After explaining my situation, things calmed down. But that sure left a bad impression of magazine disconnects. That was my first time at this particular competition and I was young and inexperienced and a little nervous anyway, and the a$$ chewing I got from the RO kinda ruined the whole experience for me. I should have taken the time and inserted a mag and dropped the hammer, or engaged the slide lock, but they were wanting you up to the line pronto as soon as your name was called. And I just grabbed my gun and went. I knew it was safe, but that didn't fly with the RO. I guess I wasn't expecting the harsh reaction I got. I was so embarassed I never entered that particular competition again.

[wyntrout]

For myself and anyone that knows me, I prefer my pistol to fire when I pull the trigger, magazine or not. I'm thinking self-defense... life and death. Some day I could be in a struggle and the magazine get released... or, I could be in the middle of a magazine change BEFORE empty magazine, and I want my pistol to shoot that bullet in the chamber... not just give me a "rock" or door stop to use for self-defense.
That's just me, though, and we're free to carry as we see fit... in accordance with the law... or as we see fit, being big boys and girls who've decided what's best for us in our own particular case.
I still can't believe how many people don't clear the chamber on autos after dropping the magazine. That ought to be taught first at home and in kindergarten or first grade... whatever.
Just my 2¢.
Keep it friendly.

Wynn:)

[O'Dell]

Hey Jocko. Yes, of course, beyond reasonable doubt and the preponderance of evidence are different, but you will still find sleazy prosecutors or sleazy plaintiff lawyers in both cases. BTW, I didn't even remember that my M&P has a disconnect safety. That's how little it bothers me. I did know that my 3rd gen S&W do have the disconnect, but I never think about it. And I did start out with " to each his own".

And Wynn. I understand what you're saying. You want you gun to go bang when that's your intention. I do too. But, the odds of ending up with a round in the chamber and no mag are pretty remote. My son is a 15 year vet in the police, ex swat team member, range safety officer, and now chief of a force. He's also a six year military vet with time in Granada and Beirut. Yet he dropped the mag and fired a round in my house with my PM45. I guess anyone can make a mistake no matter the training. Again, we all go with what we're comfortable with, and that's different with different people.

[jlottmc]

After coming back to this thread, I'm kinda real glad that my sincere and articulate didn't make it here as it was swallowed by the forum gods.

[jocko]

agree, I couldhaveleft that safety i my M & P but Ilet Bowie talk me into taking it out, at the time I guess I thought it was the cool thing to do. I personally could live with it in or out. Certainly would not keep me from buying a certain gun if I wanted it.

I have a hole in my business mens crapper door where a customer 30 years ago shot one through the door while on the crapper. I never plugged that hole either.. Kinda looks like a peep hole but when someone would ask, I always told them the fellas name who shot the hole in there to, and this was with a revolver.

[wyntrout]

Russian Roulette and he missed... or changed his mind???

I mentioned TWO instances where it's damned important that the pistol fire without a magazine... maybe "rare", but real show stoppers if your life is on the line. And, the three Kahrs I use for CCW all require the same actions from the same position, so there are no surprises for "muscle memory"... no safeties or racking required.

If I ever decide to try to carry my 4" 1911 (hefty :eek:) I'll be so conscious of its bulk and cocked and locked, I think I'll remember to swipe the safety down.

Wynn:D

[kpm9]

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women.

WOW, just WOW! You must be a real hit with the ladies.

[CJB]

Hit or not... its fair to say the female populace has a greater number of those cant manipulate an autoloader, than those can can. Its strength, its the way their fingers move, its skin softness on sharp edges. Has nothing to do with who they are, but what the Almighty gave them in the way of bio-hardware. Yes, with enough determination, and training, they can get some callouses, some strength, and dexterity, and pony up to any gun they want. I cant remember any saying that was in their list of stuff to look forward to.

[wyntrout]

It's up to the woman, for sure, but it takes more than just being able to rack a round. She must be willing to commit to learning how to shoot effectively AND how to clear malfunctions... especially if considering an auto for CCW or defense. But, I'd say that's true of revolvers, too, though most malfunctions can be overcome by pulling the trigger again for a fresh cylinder and round.

Wynn:)

[melissa5]

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women.

:blah::blah::blah:

[CJB]

You, madam, are one of the fine exceptions to the majority, and I suspect you damn well know it too. In fact, you relish in it!
Keep up the good work! Thanks for all ya do too!

[melissa5]

You, madam, are one of the fine exceptions to the majority, and I suspect you damn well know it too. In fact, you relish in it!
Keep up the good work! Thanks for all ya do too!

Thank you, CJB! It's a blessing and a curse! LOL!

I haven't met MOST women and don't know if they have the strength to rack a slide or not. That kind of thinking just bugs me.

[earle8888]

FWEIW, I have a S&W 52-2 and it has the mag disconnect, drives me NUTS!!!!!

[bigbob68]

There are 2 kinds of shooters. Those that have had AD's and those that will. I hate mag disconnect safties & won't own a gun that has one.

[O'Dell]

Thank you, CJB! It's a blessing and a curse! LOL!

I haven't met MOST women and don't know if they have the strength to rack a slide or not. That kind of thinking just bugs me.

Hi Melissa. I should have ask your help when getting Vickie a new pistol a couple of months ago. I wanted an LCP, but no matter how hard we tried with mine, she couldn't handle the slide consistently. I ended up getting her a KT P32, which she can operate.

[ripley16]

There are 2 kinds of shooters. Those that have had AD's and those that will.

You do realize that your statement is absurd... don't you? You are joking, right?

[melissa5]

Hi Melissa. I should have ask your help when getting Vickie a new pistol a couple of months ago. I wanted an LCP, but no matter how hard we tried with mine, she couldn't handle the slide consistently. I ended up getting her a KT P32, which she can operate.

O'Dell, I hold the gun turned sideways like a gangster and do a push-pull thing. That makes it pretty easy. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAENF-6X3gs&feature=related

[bigbob68]

You do realize that your statement is absurd... don't you? You are joking, right?

Tell me it's absurd after you have had yours. Every experienced shooter I know, including me has had one and luckily we all followed the first rule in gun safty, always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.. Mine was long ago but glad you think it's absurd, means that you haven't had one yet. You must not shoot much or handle a lot of guns, no disrespect. I am an FFL and have all kinds in and out but I always check em but that never stops having an AD if others are around and you are not diligent about safety.

[jocko]

I know in the bikers world that there are two kinds of bikers. Those whohave been down and those who are going down. I have no doubt this holds true for over 75% of riders WHO RIDE.

I won't aruge with Melissa on that statement but anyone who handles guns alot then things tend to happen that was not planned. One cannot replace the safety thaqt is between one's ears but something has to actually be there also.

[BuckeyeBlast]

I know in the bikers world that there are two kinds of bikers. Those whohave been down and those who are going down. I have no doubt this holds true for over 75% of riders WHO RIDE.

I won't aruge with Melissa on that statement but anyone who handles guns alot then things tend to happen that was not planned. One cannot replace the safety thaqt is between one's ears but something has to actually be there also.

Very true on all accounts. But there is a difference between an AD and a ND. While the odds are that most experienced, regular shooters will one day have an AD, it's also true that experienced, regular, safety observant shooters are much less likely to ever have a ND.

[jocko]

probably right, not sure their is a similiarity to my biker comment and a gun owner.

[O'Dell]

O'Dell, I hold the gun turned sideways like a gangster and do a push-pull thing. That makes it pretty easy. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAENF-6X3gs&feature=related

thanks. We tried every position. I even had Tara at my gun store try to help her. She could rack the LCP if she concentrated on it. but I feared she couldn't do it in an emergency situation. Hence, the lighter sprung P32.

[ripley16]

Tell me it's absurd after you have had yours. Every experienced shooter I know, including me has had one and luckily we all followed the first rule in gun safty, always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.. Mine was long ago but glad you think it's absurd, means that you haven't had one yet. You must not shoot much or handle a lot of guns, no disrespect. I am an FFL and have all kinds in and out but I always check em but that never stops having an AD if others are around and you are not diligent about safety.

I'm around a lot of casual shooters as well as pros, ( Marines, FBI, H.S.) and I've only personally ever known of one person to have an unintentional discharge, (and that was almost thirty years ago). Now that's almost 50 years of pistol handling. We must hang out with different crowds. I'm retired and shoot much less these days, but when I do, I make it apoint to not shoot something I don't want shot. I'm kinda anal in that regard. ;)

No dispresct in return, but you need to rethink safety if you think all shooters are as careless as your immediate crowd. In my experience most are not, and any carelessness around here is simply not tolerated.

[bigbob68]

I'm around a lot of casual shooters as well as pros, ( Marines, FBI, H.S.) and I've only personally ever known of one person to have an unintentional discharge, (and that was almost thirty years ago). Now that's almost 50 years of pistol handling. We must hang out with different crowds. I'm retired and shoot much less these days, but when I do, I make it apoint to not shoot something I don't want shot. I'm kinda anal in that regard. ;)

No dispresct in return, but you need to rethink safety if you think all shooters are as careless as your immediate crowd. In my experience most are not, and any carelessness around here is simply not tolerated.

Most don't like to admit it, seems like you have a flawless record. I perform a visual check, finger check and double check even if handed an empty gun. It is a practice that only takes once to forget to have an AD and that is why it is an accident and not an on purpose. I hang with LEO, IPSC, Cowboy Action and Military. We are all safe, it is the others that we worry about. Now back to the topic on hand, I do not like mag disconnect safties.

[earle8888]

O Dell I have luck teaching women to hold the slide in their weak hand and PUSH the frame with the strong hand while holding the weak one firm. I have found it to work very well.

[Rainman48314]

But for the life of me I can't see the wisdom in the hatred for mag disconnect safeties. .......

I prefer all my guns to be standardized in regards to mag safeties. Since my first three did not have them (Beretta Neos, HK P30, Sig P238), I disabled the one provided in my Ruger SR9c. I am OK with the LCI as Ruger has implemented it and would be happy to have it on all my guns. Its not a deal breaker either way.

[ltxi]

The sad part of this is that I allowed the OP to suck me into wasting five minutes of my life skimming this thread. I have no idea why other than the original post was just so nuts that I couldn't help wanting to see the responses.

Of course women shouldn't be allowed to own semi-auto handguns. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, either. Or be allowed outside of their home without wearing a veil.

[O'Dell]

O Dell I have luck teaching women to hold the slide in their weak hand and PUSH the frame with the strong hand while holding the weak one firm. I have found it to work very well.

Thanks, that's the way Tara does it, but it didn't work consistently for Vickie. The spring in the LCP is pretty stiff. Anyway she can handle the P32 fine, so we'll leave it at that.

[dannyeller]

The sad part of this is that I allowed the OP to suck me into wasting five minutes of my life skimming this thread. I have no idea why other than the original post was just so nuts that I couldn't help wanting to see the responses.

Of course women shouldn't be allowed to own semi-auto handguns. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, either. Or be allowed outside of their home without wearing a veil.

The nutty thing here is how you derived "shouldn't be allowed to" out of my comment that I don't RECOMMEND semi-autos to women shooters. That is truly the nutty part.

I stand behind my words as I have probably more experience at it than most even on this post. How some of you turned this into some sexism BS is beyond me.

I have SAVED many female officers their careers because I took the time to teach them to qualify with an M9 (And yes many of them had to pull back the the hammer (the proper word is censored on this blog) and do the push push method to rack the slide). That is the same kind of crap the Democrats try pulling on anyone that doesn't care for Obama's policies. It is not because he is a Socialist who is bankrupting our country and setting us all up for economic failure... no..... it is because he is black. Several of you have gone down the same path by implying if not saying outright that a TRUE statement is not because most women have less grip and upper body strength that prohibits many of them from being able to properly operate most semi-autos especially in a high stress situation. That is just common sense. No... it is because I somehow think that they must be inferior or not deserving of our precious semi's.... yeah that must be it...

Of course it would be prudent and RIGHT to steer them toward a revolver or a semi like some of the Barrettas that have a tip up barrel. I have coached women and men that because of their body stature, age, injuries that prevents them from holding a semi well enough to not cause weak-wristing malfunctions like stovepipes, failure to extracts and double feeds. Not to mention racking the slide (If you have to give a special side bar class on it maybe a semi-auto isn't the answer for that person). If it is not due to a mechanical issue of the pistol, sometimes such things can be fixed by using a higher pressure ammo, going to a slightly larger caliber but usually it means they should stick with a good revolver.

I state again... Magazine disconnect safeties are a good thing. They will help in preventing injuries and deaths by some like us who use firearms regularly but mostly those that just want something to keep the bad guys from doing them harm after busting in their door and are not going to fire 200 rounds in their life time let alone 200rds to just break-in a semi-auto.

I also say again that this vitriol hatred for Magazine disconnect safeties hurts our community as it influences good companies like Glock and Kahr from offering them unless it is forced to by people that have no clue about firearms but they do have more than a clue about making laws.

And again I say that if you want to disable it then fine. It is your pistol. If it causes you harm in some way later then you are big boys and can handle the consequences of such decisions. I think that such trends in safety should come from us and not damn Government bureaucrats shoving it down our throats. So I'm for a good mag disconnect safety that is well designed, functional without having to do something other than put in or take out a magazine and is 100% reliable. We get those by demanding it from our gun manufactures.

Or we can go the way that many here unknowingly support and get one that is added on after the fact by a Gun illiterate Bureaucrat like those in California. And while they're at it they'll tack on the LCI, safeties on double action only pistols and then keep going with micro stamping, limitations on the number of rounds, kind of rounds, power of rounds, caliber, taxes on ammunition, ammo components and so on and so on. They have such a wonderful record out there in California we should all emulate them now shouldn't we? Or... should we take the lead in doing things that work so as to take the wind out of the socialist, Godless bastards sails before they screw us with all those things that don't work?

[dannyeller]

Thanks, that's the way Tara does it, but it didn't work consistently for Vickie. The spring in the LCP is pretty stiff. Anyway she can handle the P32 fine, so we'll leave it at that.

I was surprised when Keltec offered these little guns and I found out that they have a locked breach design. Not that usual for .380 and even less so for .32s. Without the heavy recoil spring required for a blowback type of action they are much easier to use for those with limited grip strength. There is not a lot to hold on to with these little guns so the extra few pounds of the LCP's recoil spring probably is just enough to make it not the best choice for your wife. I would recommend her using either a Magsafe or Glaser type round n the .32. Regardless of the penetration arguments these rounds have an outstanding stop performance. They are higher pressure rounds so they would help give the little guns more to work with to help negate any shooter induced failures. I buy two packs every six months for my wife's lady smith 642. She'll then shoot off the older ones at the end of some practice to get used to the louder bark, sharper recoil and to check the point of impact. I have her practice only at 7 to 10 yards so I can't really see much change in impact between those and the practice ammo. My wife can still keep them all on a paper plate at those distances.

Keltecs are not my first choice but the gun she can operate is a heck of a lot better than one she may be able to operate.

[dannyeller]

Apparently you don't get it. The instances of supposed ACCIDENTAL DICHARGE you mentioned were all NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES. SURE the persons did not mean for the gun to go off BUT THEY PULLED THE TRIGGER.

When I am looking at a firearm and my wife asks to take a peek I remind her that the first thing she must do even after seeing that I made sure it was not loaded is to make sure it aint loaded. Gremlins might have gotten it between her and I and loaded it... The guys at the local gun shop always check to be sure a firearm isn't loaded when they hand them to me to look at and the first thing I do is check to make sure they are not loaded then when I hand the firearm to my son or wife the first thing they do is make sure.

uhhhh... sir, in the military and police you are "required" to pull the trigger at the clearing barrel to ensure the gun is safe before going into certain areas. Not all military or police are anywhere near as proficient with a firearm (especially a pistol) as one might think. Many are carrying them not because they want to but because they are required to just like the Pro-mask hanging off their rear end. Many of those "non-combat" related deaths you hear about are from ADs or ""NDs"". Where the simple act of Racking the slide, seeing the round eject then dropping the magazine occurred rather than the other way around.

Both Non-Combat and Combat troops have ADs/NDs. For the Non-Combat it is usually due to them not committing themselves to knowing their firearm since its use is not their primary role to Combat troops screwing around or getting complacent with something they have with them 24/7 months at a time.

And yes there are quite a few "ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES"...Sir.... From weapons falling out of vehicles when troops are trying to just get the hell out of the thing to weapons falling out of holsters and getting tangled up in the gobs of equipment our troops have tied to their bodies. And apparently you are not aware of the issue of M16s and M4s safeties being easily rubbed into the fire position by your equipment are you. Maybe your screaming ND... ND for God's sake they're all NDs!!!!!! are not the result of you knowing but are just, say again, just... assuming.

ON the lighter side, I was once leaving a chow hall and after putting my substantial amount of gear back on the thumb snap on my shoulder holster was undone. As I was walking out my M9 fell out of the holster and I inadvertently dropped kicked it across the chow hall floor. At least it came back my way once it reached the end of a coiled lanyard. Another time when in the States our Battalion Commander came a knocken. I came to attention with my rifle slinged on my shoulder. Right when I rendered a salute the sling broke at the top and my rifle went muzzle first right into the trash can located behind me. Funny now but not then. Those would have been ""ADs" had a round went off.

I will put my creds up against anyone on this blog. I'm not some lucky come lately. And from my statements above you can tell I'm not all that lucky. But my statements are the results of experience over a long period of time with some of that experience gained while standing in some of the crappiest places on earth.... Sir....

And yes, "I do get it" but I'm pretty sure you don't.

[dannyeller]

WOW, just WOW! You must be a real hit with the ladies.

Not so much a hit. More so as trusted. Like in someone who knows what the hell they are doing.

[MW surveyor]

Time for this thread to die!

[kpm9]

Not so much a hit. More so as trusted. Like in someone who knows what the hell they are doing.

You posted it and yet you felt the need to PM me this also?

I know quite a few women who could outshoot you and teach you a thing or 2.

Magazine disconnects are not safeties, they are mag disconnects.
There is no safety for stupid.

[dannyeller]

You posted it and yet you felt the need to PM me this also?

I know quite a few women who could outshoot you and teach you a thing or 2.

Magazine disconnects are not safeties, they are mag disconnects.
There is no safety for stupid.

I'm sure they are. And soooo? What does that have to do with anything. You didn't answer how you got "shouldn't have" from my stating that I don't "RECOMMEND"?

You're the one with the attacks and nothing but demagoguery. You may not agree with with me but you are unable to state that without attacking. Why is that? Never mind... the answer is obvious.

[Bawanna]

Deep breaths needed here. The mole hill is becoming a mountain and theres no need for that.

Be nice.

[dannyeller]

Deep breaths needed here. The mole hill is becoming a mountain and theres no need for that.

Be nice.

You're absolutely right Bawanna. I should not let "trivial" attacks get under my skin.

But this goes to my original point. I just do not understand the "vitriol" hatred for magazine disconnect safeties from those in our community. I really just don't understand that. I do understand the arguments made by many that they don't like the idea of the gun not being able to go bang when they pull the trigger for what ever reason. I don't agree with that in regards to well designed Mag disconnect safeties but I understand it.

But somehow some on this blog tries to turn lively pros and cons debates into attacks of sexism or anti-gunisms. Goes back to my point again. Just don't understand the hatred going on here with regards to this issue.

[jocko]

but IMO u need to accept everyone opinion and not get upset when someone totally disagrees. not a perfect world. It would be boring if we all agreed. stirring the pot, only makes the pot hotter. I have found on the internet it doesn't do alot to change one's mind.

[Bawanna]

Please note that my post was directed at all and not you specifically dannyyeller.

Personally I have no issue with well design mag disconnects. The officers I work with detest them as they want the ability to fire their weapon with the mag out and I cant hardly blame them.

I also look at it as a safety in case shooting is not justified or you find yourself fighting for your gun with a bad guy. I always figured I'd just dump the magazine and then I could focus on beating the guy rather than worry about the gun firing.

I've owned many Smith autos which all had disconnects and I never deactivate that sort of thing. Other than being a pain to work on or test it bothered me very little.

So I guess once again I'm in the middle, I could live with or without.

[dannyeller]

but IMO u need to accept everyone opinion and not get upset when someone totally disagrees. not a perfect world. It would be boring if we all agreed. stirring the pot, only makes the pot hotter. I have found on the internet it doesn't do alot to change one's mind.

Jocko, It is not the disagreement that gets my blood boiling. It is the attacks generated by such as this TV guy and some others. I'm just not the sort to lay low from such things. And I am not the one not accepting others opinions. But that acceptance doesn't mean I have to agree with something I know to be wrong. It just means I have to re-approach based on the others statements. Not attack personally.

But Bawanna's post is what this should be about. He gives both pros and cons based on his personal observation. No attacks.

But getting back to the point. This blog has proven my point that the hatred in regards to this issue hurts us as such vehement opinions prevent good gun makers such as Kahr and Glock to offer such things. Thus leaving such things up to those that will force mag disconnect safeties that are after the fact designs that may work and a whole lot more that won't work down upon us.

[O'Dell]

I was surprised when Keltec offered these little guns and I found out that they have a locked breach design. Not that usual for .380 and even less so for .32s. Without the heavy recoil spring required for a blowback type of action they are much easier to use for those with limited grip strength. There is not a lot to hold on to with these little guns so the extra few pounds of the LCP's recoil spring probably is just enough to make it not the best choice for your wife. I would recommend her using either a Magsafe or Glaser type round n the .32. Regardless of the penetration arguments these rounds have an outstanding stop performance. They are higher pressure rounds so they would help give the little guns more to work with to help negate any shooter induced failures. I buy two packs every six months for my wife's lady smith 642. She'll then shoot off the older ones at the end of some practice to get used to the louder bark, sharper recoil and to check the point of impact. I have her practice only at 7 to 10 yards so I can't really see much change in impact between those and the practice ammo. My wife can still keep them all on a paper plate at those distances.

Keltecs are not my first choice but the gun she can operate is a heck of a lot better than one she may be able to operate.

Thanks Danny. I got a box of Corbon with the pistol and bought a couple of boxes of Remington ball for practice. I haven't been a KT fan since I sold my P11 because of the trigger and my PF9 because it wasn't reliable. However, the LCP is close to a KT clone and has worked well, and the biggest problem I hear about the P32 is rim lock. Right now my biggest job is to drag Vickie to the range to practice. I'll look into the Magsafe.

BTW, Vickie is my best friend, not my wife. :) I haven't taken THAT step yet.

[dannyeller]

The comments on this thread certainly show that I am in the minority on this. Just means I have my work cut out to convince others that magazine disconnect safeties are a good thing that we should embrace as a standard feature and disable if it is not for us.

But the vitriol hatred and attacks making this about something else such as sexism or "stupidity" proves my other point that there is an unfounded hatred for what is a good thing. Such hatred for simple devices and directed at those that argue their merits is a cancer in our community. I don't know what the answer is but I will continue to engage such as it raises its ugly head.:(

[jocko]

Thanks Danny. I got a box of Corbon with the pistol and bought a couple of boxes of Remington ball for practice. I haven't been a KT fan since I sold my P11 because of the trigger and my PF9 because it wasn't reliable. However, the LCP is close to a KT clone and has worked well, and the biggest problem I hear about the P32 is rim lock. Right now my biggest job is to drag Vickie to the range to practice. I'll look into the Magsafe.

BTW, Vickie is my best friend, not my wife. :) I haven't taken THAT step yet.

rim lock, fiux.

Kt sells a rod that goes in the back of the magazines that will preevent rim lock in the 32"s. I would advise buying it, It drops right in and it works.. actually it isnot a rod but a flat peace..if not u might just encounter rim lock, as u know it is the round design and not a design flaw. I had one in my P32 kt and u don'teven know itis there..

How To Make FlyerWires (P-32 anti-rimlock device)
Kel-Tec Forum ... The .380 is rimless, so it's not subject to rimlock! ... The Flyerwire only works with the standard P-32 mag. ...
.

http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a5/a5.html

[dannyeller]

Please note that my post was directed at all and not you specifically dannyyeller.

Personally I have no issue with well design mag disconnects. The officers I work with detest them as they want the ability to fire their weapon with the mag out and I cant hardly blame them.

I also look at it as a safety in case shooting is not justified or you find yourself fighting for your gun with a bad guy. I always figured I'd just dump the magazine and then I could focus on beating the guy rather than worry about the gun firing.

I've owned many Smith autos which all had disconnects and I never deactivate that sort of thing. Other than being a pain to work on or test it bothered me very little.


So I guess once again I'm in the middle, I could live with or without.

Bawanna, When I was work'n for a Sheriff's Department I really had a fear of loosing my gun to some drunk I had to wrestle with. Wrestling with drunks was the most common of confrontational incidents. I carried a Glock 23 and it is still my favorite and most practical pistol of the couple of dozen pistols and revolvers I own. I used and still have a couple of the Safariland level three security holsters. That gave me some good confidence that at least I wouldn't get shot with my own gun. But a mag disconnect would have made me feel even better. One drunk actually pulled my big butt completely off the ground trying to rip my Glock out of the Safariland holster. I came close to shooting that guy with my back-up 642 but he quickly ran out of steam (probably had something to do with all the not-so-dead lifts he was doing). At the time I would have liked to disabled the gun and let him have it so I could get away from him and take other action.

[Bawanna]

Fortunately theres some very good retention holsters out there now days that weren't around in the old days.
Great access for the officer (if he/she practices) but very difficult for anyone else.
Another plus is they are very quick to reholster and latch so if you have to go hands on the gun is put away but there if needed later.
We had one officer that actually tried to shoot a drunk who had him in a bear hug lifted off the ground with his Beretta. Only reason he didn't was cause he had the gun shoved into the guys chest so hard it took it out of battery.

It was a real eye opener for the drunk after he realized how close he'd come to getting shot.

[O'Dell]

rim lock, fiux.

Kt sells a rod that goes in the back of the magazines that will preevent rim lock in the 32"s. I would advise buying it, It drops right in and it works.. actually it isnot a rod but a flat peace..if not u might just encounter rim lock, as u know it is the round design and not a design flaw. I had one in my P32 kt and u don'teven know itis there..

How To Make FlyerWires (P-32 anti-rimlock device)
Kel-Tec Forum ... The .380 is rimless, so it's not subject to rimlock! ... The Flyerwire only works with the standard P-32 mag. ...
.

http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a5/a5.html

Thanks Jocko, I've heard of the mod. My impression is that it occurs with certain brands,ie shapes, of defense rounds. I may just order one.

[O'Dell]

The comments on this thread certainly show that I am in the minority on this. Just means I have my work cut out to convince others that magazine disconnect safeties are a good thing that we should embrace as a standard feature and disable if it is not for us.

But the vitriol hatred and attacks making this about something else such as sexism or "stupidity" proves my other point that there is an unfounded hatred for what is a good thing. Such hatred for simple devices and directed at those that argue their merits is a cancer in our community. I don't know what the answer is but I will continue to engage such as it raises its ugly head.:(

If it helps, I'm pretty much in the middle - I wouldn't buy a pistol just because it had the disconnect, nor would I not buy one because it didn't have it. Other than the 45 year old HP, I've never had a problem one way or the other, and I have pistols both ways now.

[jocko]

Thanks Jocko, I've heard of the mod. My impression is that it occurs with certain brands,ie shapes, of defense rounds. I may just order one.

if ur gonna carry a defense load, u should have one or do the mod, the mod is simple, hell I did it, so u know it's simple, but kt's comes reeady to go also. don't trust the hp ammo without it..

[dannyeller]

Jocko,

I need a pistol lock box for my RoadGlide saddlebag. At one time I saw someone make one that slips right in your right bag and secures both the box and your bag by snapping into the front bag attachment. It was lined to protect you pistol.

Have you heard of such a thing and do you know who makes it? I know I saw it for sale but the Harley I had then didn't have bags.

[jocko]

never seen one, sound slike it would be nice to have traveling through some of those kommi states. I will do some research.

Harley Vault by Corporate Travel Safety (Free Shipping) - Car/Vehicle Safes - CorporateTravelSafety.com

HERE U GO. it ain't cheap but they ain't gonna steal it either, I think I would opt to just put it in a pistol case with an outside lock and then lock the saddlebags and with magazine somewhere else, u surely have to be legal. course if they don't ask me I sure in hell ain't gonna tell um either.. course if one has to go through all that b.s. he might as well leave the damn gun home, I am sure the BG ain't gonna do all that crap when he decides to rob u..

[dannyeller]

Thanks Jocko, I've heard of the mod. My impression is that it occurs with certain brands,ie shapes, of defense rounds. I may just order one.

Although I like the magsafes better, the Glasers have a round nose profile that seem to work in even the most finicky of pistols.

[jocko]

Although a like the magsafes better, the Glasers have a round nose profile that seem to work in even the most finicky of pistols.

not the bullet that screws things up on a 32, it is the case and rim that will lock into each other..

[BuckeyeBlast]

The comments on this thread certainly show that I am in the minority on this. Just means I have my work cut out to convince others that magazine disconnect safeties are a good thing that we should embrace as a standard feature and disable if it is not for us.

But the vitriol hatred and attacks making this about something else such as sexism or "stupidity" proves my other point that there is an unfounded hatred for what is a good thing. Such hatred for simple devices and directed at those that argue their merits is a cancer in our community. I don't know what the answer is but I will continue to engage such as it raises its ugly head.:(

And see, this is where you don't get it. Your all-knowing attitude is what offends people and can trigger the emotional responses. People have their opinions, and yours is no better. You're trying to "convince" people that you're right, when you're not. That doesn't mean that you're wrong either, but respect that people are going to have a difference of opinion. Your trigger words of hate, vitriol, etc regarding people's opinions which they uphold is going to trigger a certain response from people. Saying that their opinions, which they hold dearly, are a 'cancer' is not appropriate. Your word is not the final word, and you'll find that people will be much more open to different points of view when their own points of view aren't being called a cancer raising their ugly head.

[jocko]

I think u made a good point for maybe all of us to remember also. We can all sit around a fire and chat and watch it burn, but when u try to throw one in the fire, then things happen that is not normally nice..

[kpm9]

I don't care about you to hate you. Hate is such a strong word requiring work, which I neither have the proclivity for nor the energy for.

As Buckey so eloquently stated (I never would've thought I could use Buckey and eloquent in the same sentence - lol, no offense BB) alluded to, your behavior is what determines what people's perceptions of you are.

Now own it.

[dannyeller]

And see, this is where you don't get it. Your all-knowing attitude is what offends people and can trigger the emotional responses. People have their opinions, and yours is no better. You're trying to "convince" people that you're right, when you're not. That doesn't mean that you're wrong either, but respect that people are going to have a difference of opinion. Your trigger words of hate, vitriol, etc regarding people's opinions which they uphold is going to trigger a certain response from people. Saying that their opinions, which they hold dearly, are a 'cancer' is not appropriate. Your word is not the final word, and you'll find that people will be much more open to different points of view when their own points of view aren't being called a cancer raising their ugly head.

Your missing the points. It is obvious that you did not read all of the posts or just skimmed over them. It was not their opinions that I clearly referred to as the cancer of hate and vitriol. It is the personal attacks on people that you do not agree with rather than give a considered opposing view.

If I know something to be true I'm not going to be wishy washy about it. I'll consider others arguments and then try again to convince.

I suggest that you go back and actually read the posts. I will attack when personally attacked but not on the bases of their views but on their resorting to personal attacks when they can't argue the merits of their position.

And as far has hate and vitriol on the original issue of this post is proven by the very posts you are trying to defend.

[dannyeller]

I don't care about you to hate you. Hate is such a strong word requiring work, which I neither have the proclivity for nor the energy for.

As Buckey so eloquently stated (I never would've thought I could use Buckey and eloquent in the same sentence - lol, no offense BB) alluded to, your behavior is what determines what people's perceptions of you are.

Now own it.

I suggest anyone reading this post to go back and read kpm9's earlier entries on this thread. And yes kpm9, I gave you back some of what you put out. You deserved it.

Again, anyone reading these posts I encourage you to read kpm9's banter on earlier entries in this thread. kpm9 is just steamed that I pointed out his proving my points.

Then there will be no doubt about who is owning what.

[dannyeller]

never seen one, sound slike it would be nice to have traveling through some of those kommi states. I will do some research.

Harley Vault by Corporate Travel Safety (Free Shipping) - Car/Vehicle Safes - CorporateTravelSafety.com

HERE U GO. it ain't cheap but they ain't gonna steal it either, I think I would opt to just put it in a pistol case with an outside lock and then lock the saddlebags and with magazine somewhere else, u surely have to be legal. course if they don't ask me I sure in hell ain't gonna tell um either.. course if one has to go through all that b.s. he might as well leave the damn gun home, I am sure the BG ain't gonna do all that crap when he decides to rob u..

Thanks Jocko. that is what I was looking for. I did some searches but couldn't find this for some reason. After seeing the price I'm going to have to give it some additional thought. I spent a ton on my two project Kahrs the T9 and the MK40 and will need more time before I sneak this past the wife. After buying the RoadGlide back in 09 I was in hot water until I upgraded her ride to a decked out 2010 AWD Enclave. I knew she was gong to get me good but had I known how bad I would have stayed with the bagless Harley. I'll probably suck it up and get one of the Harley Vaults but not until I square away another overseas contract.

[BuckeyeBlast]

Your missing the points. It is obvious that you did not read all of the posts or just skimmed over them. It was not their opinions that I clearly referred to as the cancer of hate and vitriol. It is the personal attacks on people that you do not agree with rather than give a considered opposing view.

If I know something to be true I'm not going to wishy washy about it. I'll consider others arguments and then try again to convince.

I suggest that you go back and actually read the posts. I will attack when personally attacked but not on the bases of their views but on their resorting to personal attacks when they can't argue the merits of their position.

And as far has hate and vitriol on the original issue of this post is proven by the very posts you are trying to defend.

No surprises here. Of course since I don't agree with you, then you assume that I didn't read the posts and don't know what I'm talking about. If this doesn't prove my point, then I guess nothing will. Have fun arguing over the internet. :2rolleyes:

[kpm9]

I suggest anyone reading this post to go back and read kpm9's earlier entries on this thread. And yes kpm9, I gave you back some of what you put out. You deserved it.



uh, I think you need to go back and read all 2 of my previous posts.
Either you have me confused with someone else, or english comprehension is not one of your strengths.

I vote for both.

[dannyeller]

WOW, just WOW! You must be a real hit with the ladies.

kpm9, I thought I would help you out. Here is one.

[dannyeller]

You posted it and yet you felt the need to PM me this also?

I know quite a few women who could outshoot you and teach you a thing or 2.

Magazine disconnects are not safeties, they are mag disconnects.
There is no safety for stupid.

Here is number 2

[dannyeller]

I don't care about you to hate you. Hate is such a strong word requiring work, which I neither have the proclivity for nor the energy for.

As Buckey so eloquently stated (I never would've thought I could use Buckey and eloquent in the same sentence - lol, no offense BB) alluded to, your behavior is what determines what people's perceptions of you are.

Now own it.

and here is number 3.

And I'll restate the best part: kpm9 said, "I don't care about you to hate you. Hate is such a strong word requiring work, which I neither have the proclivity for nor the energy for."

Proves my points right. My points were:

I don't understand the hatred and vitriol in our community against magazine disconnect safeties.

I can't understand how my stating that "I don't "recommend" semi-autos to women shooters due to many having problems racking the slides in stressful situations turned me into a woman hater.

Or that my stating that the hatred and vitriol not only against magazine disconnect safeties, but the personal attacks on anyone arguing their merits hurts our community by discouraging good companies like Glock and Kahr from offering them as standard features on their products.

Or my point that although I am convinced that it is not a smart move if you bought the pistol and want to disable such a devise then no one including our Government should stop you.

So kpm9, how again is that stupid? Or in buckeyeblast's case how do those points mean I "don't get it" or that I have an "all-knowing attitude"?

[dannyeller]

I think u made a good point for maybe all of us to remember also. We can all sit around a fire and chat and watch it burn, but when u try to throw one in the fire, then things happen that is not normally nice..

And Jocko, thanks for handling the issue with a touch of humor.
It lowered my blood pressure some.

[Bawanna]

What say we put this one to rest and start fresh. A few members felt this one was rotting the rest of the barrel so to speak an this isn't how we roll.

I think we've lost track and I see little chance of getting it back. I see some miscommunication which is commonly a factor in cases like this.

So say good bye to this one.