Got New Training Aid

[OldLincoln]

My birthday was good to me this year and those who know mw know what I like, so I'm getting a new Silent Thunder STX OWB Holster, and I received a LaserLyte 9mm Trainer Cartridge.

This is sooooo cool!! I thought I was doing pretty good with my laser pen attachment to the PM9, but range trips made me a liar. The LaserLyte proves my range trips and now I think I'm getting the real deal.

It slides into the chamber of the unloaded PM9 fully aligned with the bore and is activated by the striker pin hitting the button switch.

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx269/OldLincoln/Misc/LaserLyte9mm.jpghttp://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx269/OldLincoln/Misc/LaserLyte9mm2.jpg

Perhaps the best thing is I can't seem to put it down and have "shot up" all the wallpaper and door knobs, etc in the house. I have to reset the striker with a partial rack which forces me to focus on each shot. If it were anything else I know I'd just be pulling the trigger repeatedly and loose the training aspect. I want my first shot out of the holster right on, and I think this will help.

Just passing the info along as an encouragement to practice at home to refine your skills before shooting all your ammo at the range. I did renew my range member ship after I got an additional $50 off for being so old. If I live long enough they may pay me to hang around the place!

[Rainman48314]

I have a 9mm kit with a bunch of small targets which really light up on center hits. Its fun to train with around the condo. I wasn't able to get my PM9 to work. Would that mean too light a striker hit?

http://www.adorama.com/LASU9MBSCK.html

[OldLincoln]

I'm not sure. If it works for others and you can push the striker button and it lights up then it's obviously not getting hit by the striker. I'm assuming you are half racking to reset the striker and it clicks okay. If it is a rod thing that fits into the barrel beyond the chamber, with the slide closed, you may need to push it from the muzzle into the breach. Other than that I just don't know.

I did see the targets you mentioned tho. LaserLyte has a $150 electronic target the displays and records the hits. Then you shoot the magic button on the left and it shows all your shots at once, then the magic button on the right to clear the shots. It's cool but I'm thinking more on the line of targets taped around the house and do "clear" the house drills. Maybe get my wife to put up targets so I don't know where they are. Is that fun or what?!

[TucsonMTB]

Here's a YouTube Video by the company. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTwK_9pIhG4

Neat toy! But, at about $90 delivered, I will have to find another way to annoy my wife around the house. ;)

[OldLincoln]

You're right about the price, but I have to say I've gone through a few hundred rounds trying to get an imprint on a new to me shooting style. It has a high, aimed, position that I shoot very well as I can actually see the sights with it. But they have a low, un-aimed, position for close in shooting that I struggle with. It's this that led me to spend my birthday money on the laser.

Not only was I wasting ammo, but I don't get to the range as much as I need to nail the new style. This is like having a tutor at home and I'll try to solve the issue sooner than otherwise. Plus it can lead into some IDPA type drills in the house. I seriously considered an Airsoft gun as JohnH recommended for this but it would have been closer to $150 by the time I got it equipped.

[paul34]

Although I'm always hesitant about things that require me to load something into the chamber and pull the trigger, I am pretty interested in this as well. I also can't get out to the range as much as I want to, plus, like many ranges, my ranges has rules that makes realistic CC-style practice difficult. I could have a lot more freedom at home. Of course, this can't simulate recoil, noise, etc. but it could really help you to refine concepts like point shooting, retention shooting, etc.

If I had the money, I'd snap these up. I think they could pay for themselves if you have a similar restrictive circumstance.

[OldLincoln]

Here's a YouTube Video by the company. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTwK_9pIhG4

Neat toy! But, at about $90 delivered, I will have to find another way to annoy my wife around the house. ;)
I've been thinking about the "annoy my wife" bit. Her sister got her a keyboard for Christmas and she practices on it for an hour or so several times a week. I really don't mind even though she plays the same 3 songs over and over because I know she loves it.

Given that, I don't think There will be the "click comments", then again, I'm not going to sit watching TV shooting all the bad guys either.

[TucsonMTB]

You're right about the price, but I have to say I've gone through a few hundred rounds trying to get an imprint on a new to me shooting style. It has a high, aimed, position that I shoot very well as I can actually see the sights with it. But they have a low, un-aimed, position for close in shooting that I struggle with. It's this that led me to spend my birthday money on the laser.

Not only was I wasting ammo, but I don't get to the range as much as I need to nail the new style. This is like having a tutor at home and I'll try to solve the issue sooner than otherwise. Plus it can lead into some IDPA type drills in the house. I seriously considered an Airsoft gun as JohnH recommended for this but it would have been closer to $150 by the time I got it equipped.
Makes sense. You are a more serious trainer than I, so it is money well spent for you. Add that how much easier it is to clean up laser flashes compared to those little Airsoft pellets and it's a "no brainer". :D

I've been thinking about the "annoy my wife" bit. Her sister got her a keyboard for Christmas and she practices on it for an hour or so several times a week. I really don't mind even though she plays the same 3 songs over and over because I know she loves it.

Given that, I don't think There will be the "click comments", then again, I'm not going to sit watching TV shooting all the bad guys either.
The fact that you even concern yourself about annoying her suggests that it will not be an issue. My office is at one end of the house. SWMBO has a computer Armour in the great room, nearly at the other end of the house. I don't get many complaints, but if there is one it usually centers around not being nearby enough to annoy her. :rolleyes:

It sounds like you enjoy a similar well balanced relationship. That's a good thing. :D

[garyb]

Looks like a very interesting dry fire practice tool. I dry fire practice regularly/daily and will check it out for sure. In fact, my wife and I are attending a dry fire and live fire gun handling program today, at a local gun range. I feel 50-75% or more of practice should be dry fire and the rest should be live fire. Dry fire practice can be done every day and costs 0.

Would a Crimson Trace Laser sighting system result in triggering the Laserlyte target device... In other words, would I need to remove or tape over the CTL to use this LaserLyte chambered device with their target receptor? Thanks for sharing this info on the LaserLyte tool. Appreciated.

[garyb]

I checked out their price: TLB-1 target $199.95 + LT-40 laser $99.95 = $300 round numbers plus shipping. That's an expensive training tool and equivalent to 2000 rounds of ammo or a nice deposit on a new gun.

It seems to be a great dry fire training tool and nothing against it, but there are also cheaper ways to achieve good dry fire results with a CTL. I just can't justify that price, so let's hope their prices come down. Thanks for sharing the info. I will keep watching for a better deal on this one.

[OldLincoln]

Gary, that's only if you get the $200 target. I'm training for self defense and a single stationary target isn't going to do it for me, no matter how cool.

As for the CT laser, it stays on so may interfere with the 200ms shot of the LaserLyte. I would tape over it if I had one. It's that snap shot out of the holster that I'm concerned about. No time to drag a laser spot to the right place.

I have a laser pen I can mount to the gun and used that at first. I realized I wasn't getting an accurate placement of the shot itself because it remained on. This one is a much more accurate as proved to myself by matching my actual poor performance at the range.

[garyb]

OldLincoln,
Are you using only the chambered light without the receptor target?

I can see that the laserlyte has a wonderful purpose for dry fire training. Again, I believe dry fire training is essential. The chambered light may be a better training tool at a better price, if the light can be used well without the receptor target. The light can be moved from gun to gun. It is less expensive than a CTL.

Because I already have a CTL, my mindset automatically goes to comparison of the CTL to Laserlyte. At this point, I have a CTL and for dry fire practice, it serves the same purpose as the LaserLyte because I can see where my shot would hit when I pull the trigger. Both the CTL or LaserLyte will serve the same purpose in this regard. The CTL is there if I need it in low light defense and adds less than 1 oz to my gun. ON the other hand, the LaserLyte can be moved from gun to gun of same caliber, is 1/2 the cost of a CTL ($100 for Laserlyte vs $150-200 for CTL). However, that is assuming that the Laserlyte can be used with good results without the receptor target. My CTL has been so reliable and effective, and the prices are so close that I'll probably stick with the CTL for now. Nothing against the Laserlyte and I will be watching to see more about the unique benefits of the laserlyte. Thanks again for sharing this info.

I will add one thing. If you practice dry fire with either device (CTL or laserlyte), your shooting WILL absolutely be guaranteed to improve. Especially if you use dry fire in the same proportions or more frequently than recoil time AND don't over shoot at the range. Yesterday my wife and I attended a gun training program consisting of dry fire training. Excellent training program. Then the instructors applied the dry fire training on the range. Remarkable results. If the plan is to improve, dry fire is the tool and the Laserlyte or CTL are excellent tools. You can practice dry fire every day of the week and then spend an hour on the range applying live fire to confirm your dry fire training. AMAZING RESULTS!

[OldLincoln]

Gery, Yes only the chambered laser. It projects well in and I haven't had problems seeing it against most objects, even in a room with the light on.

I suppose if I had a CTL installed I wouldn't have both. I have a laser pen that I mounted on the gun but discovered I wasn't pulling the trigger until it was on target. My objective is to have it on target when I first point so the pen defeated my objective. The CTL is with you all the time so it would not matter - except if it takes time to get things aligned.

I agree with the training value aspect as my initial shots are already much improved.

[garyb]

Good to know OldLincoln. I'll keep my eyes on this laserlyte device. It seems to be priced right. Let us know how it holds up, please.

I have gotten used to using my CTL two ways. Sometimes I practice indexing without pressing the laser on button on my grip. Mine turns ON with the index finger pressure (probably like most do). I use a looser grip on the index finger and point then add a little finger press the button to see where I've indexed. The other way is simply to watch the laser when I press the trigger to make sure I have stayed on target and followed through. Works kind of the same as the laserlyte tool. Both good practice.

Like I said, that Laserlyte is another great dry fire tool. It may find a place in my tool bag someday. Thanks again for sharing. I did not know this device was out there.

[Rainman48314]

I just bought the 9mm laser "bullet" for $92. Works great in my PM9. I hope to master the DA trigger pull. The other product I have is a kit which includes six or seven 4x4" targets. They look like thin plastic but light brightly on center hits. Instead of a bullet, this is a device with a hollow tube that comes out of the muzzle and a red cap can be attached as a reminder the gun is set up for dry fire. Doesn't setup as quick as the new generation device and did not work in my Kahr. Worked in an HK P30 and SR9c. Highly recommend the company's products.

[MW surveyor]

Just saw one of these today at one of the 4 LGS's in the neighborhood. Thought I get it for the 45 but after seeing the price.......Think I'll just keep on dry firing with the penny on top of the slide.

[Joe L]

I just ordered a SureStrike laser device to train with. Even though it is expensive, its cheaper than ammo. Should work in all my pistols, and I have three trigger systems to master--Kahr DAO, SIG DA/SA, and now a 1911. I think I can justify it for the Kahr triggers alone, since those are the ones I don't shoot as much and they are the carry guns. I'll post up what results I have with the device in a few weeks.
Joe

[jocko]

I know most all are aware that with a kahr just a 1/4" back pull on the slide resets the trigger system, so snap caps or this laser bullet should work really nice, no ejection needed..

[Bill K]

LaserLyte also makes a product that will work for multiple calibers. It fits the muzzle end of the pistol and, I believe, uses the sound to trigger the laser.

I believe that this device to be particularly useful practicing your clear, draw, point and shoot out of the holster. I believe that for most of us that first SD shot will be the most important and will likely be pointed not aimed. What a great tool for doing that type of training, well worth the the money. There aren't likely to be many ranges that will allow you to stand 14" from a target, draw from your holster and put a shot from your hip up into the center mass.

Will likely one day get one myself. Right now my Airsoft G26 serves well for this type of training.

Bill K.

[DBP9]

My question is regarding the insertion of the training cartridge into the barrel, and then dropping the slide. How is this not going to beat up my extractor any more than doing this with a live round. I'm going to be honest, I used to load my 1st round that way, rather than using the mag and topping off until I read that this is going to break my extractor. If I was really going to use this as a training aid, I would immagine the frequency of using the training cartridge would be just as often or more than when I'm reloading my defensive rounds back into the gun after practice sessions at the range.

[wayneo1]

I am against anything that might make you use the gun as a fun way to shoot the pets, or people or objects. It breaks down the 4 golden rules of gun handling. Use it strickly on targets in a proper setting I think its cool. I had a buddy laying on the sofa watching TV, he was cleaning his python and when a politician came on he didnt like he would aim and shoot. Later in the night he loaded his pistol to get it ready. The politician came on again and without thinking he picked the python up and shot his new TV, on the otherside of that wall his wife was sleeping. Fortunately she was fine,and Sears replaced the TV.

[OldLincoln]

DB, the LaserLyte fits into the chamber without a rim for the extractor to touch. Using it is that same as dry fire which is okay. The striker system uses an inertia firing pin that hits the primer and bounces back. With the LaserLyte it hits the laser switch and bounces back making the LaserLyte in fact a snap cap and it only lights up for about 200ms to give an accurate picture of where the shot would have hit.

Wayne, I am painfully aware of the dangers. I have a tray where I keep the LaserLyte and when practicing I leave my mag and chamber round in it. I try not to leave it laying around with the laser in it but try to have a practice session and remove it immediately.

I say try because last night dinner came in the middle and I broke my rule. When loaded I keep the gun in my pocket holster as a flag. Gosh, as I read over what I just wrote I need to add another layer in there. That is a weak spot but I don't see how anybody can practice gun handling at home any safer. But I do use it only on targets which I have taped here and there. Once I get better I'll have my wife move them and "clear the room."

[Joe L]

I think the insertable cartridge is undercut to prevent any contact with the extractor. The Laserlyte was the first thing I looked at but I wanted something without much extension so that I could draw it from an IDPA match holster. I also didn't want a sound trigger, although that isn't a deal breaker.

[garyb]

I always dry fire practice when I am alone in the house. The reason for this is because handling any firearm in the home always makes my wife nervous and I receive unusual (dramatic) expressions and reactions from her even though she is very familiar and proficient with firearms. Therefore, we have a simple agreement between eachother. I handle the firearms when she is away and she is fine with the whole firearm and carry issues. When I am carrying, the gun is out of sight and she is OK with my safety rules. It works for us. It makes us both conscious and aware. I do ALL my firearm handling (cleaning and dry fire practice) when she is gone from the home (shopping or at work). I do not handle firearms openly when she is in the home or outside doing yard work.

Secondly, I physically and mentally divide the gun handling event I am doing by assigning an area of the home. This "physically" and mentally maintains complete consciousness and focus on what I am doing safely. I always perform dry fire practice alone in the finished basement of my home against an outside concrete wall. I clean my firearm in my garage at my shop bench. I reload ammunition in another area of the home. I store live ammo in a locked vault. I keep my carry CD ammo (and ONLY what set aside for immediate carry needs) in the upstairs bedroom where I store my holsters. Each area of the home is physically assigned a conscious function for a specific event. It makes me physically think safety.

In praparation for dry fire, BEFORE I go to the basement, I unload my carry CD ammo upstairs and leave all ammo upstairs in a designated carry drawer. I consciously tell myself that I am preparing for dry fire. Changing the location in the home, physically tells me that this is where the CD ammo is kept when I am not in carry mode. The first thing that happens before dry fire practice is the ammo is physically separated from the gun in a separate area of the home. For this moment, I am empty and vulnerable. I check the gun 3X in the bedroom, then again 3X in the dry fire area of the basement. It is over doing it for safety.

I believe that dry fire practice should be done in the same safety conscious manner as range practice. Range practice is physically performed at the range. Dry fire practice is physically performed in my basement. If for some reason I have a mental fart resulting in an AD, this will happen when I am ALONE in a safe area of the home. Accidents happen, but I try to prepare for them. I feel it is very important to find a safe area of the home, designated as dry fire practice area. My basement is finished and is surrounded outside by concrete walls and dirt. To me, dry fire locations are not the living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, near windows, nor using a TV for a target, etc... But that is just me!

The basement becomes my temporary dry fire range. I lock the doors to this area when I practice dry fire, even though I am alone in the home. No one can see nor interfere with what I am doing. Practicing dry fire by a window where neighbors might see you is NOT a wise practice. The basement is where I store my snap caps (if used). I never co-mingle ammo and snap caps. Snap caps in basement training area and CD ammo in my designated upstairs CD ammo storage area. Two separate areas of the home. For certain practice sessions I use no snap caps. Other practice I use snap caps. It depends on what I am doing. I complete my 5 min (or more) dry fire practice a day, by concentrating on one or two specialty things (draw, indexing, trigger control, etc...) or combinations of special focus areas - what I refer to as a 'synergistic practice runs'.

When the dry fire session is completed, I remove my target(s) and dry fire mode is ended. I make a physical change in locations to the garage shop (cleaning area)where I go to cleaning mode, automatically check for empty again and wipe down my firearm. Then I physically shift my mental mode to live carry by returning to the ammo storage location of the upstairs bedroom where I reload and holster. Now my focus is back to my mental carry or loaded CD mode.

I find that having a different and specific physical location to conduct each mode of function, separates what I am doing. It makes the operation very conscious and lessons the chance of making a mistake. In other words, my focus is mainly on safety by breaking down the events into manageable components (live fire at a range, dry fire in the basement, loaded for carry beginning in the bedroom, cleaning mode in the garage, etc....). I consciously and physically distinguish between the event I am doing for focus and safety and I do the event ONLY when I am alone.

YES, this is going over board on the safety and 5+ min a day of dry fire might be considered excessive practice by some. But this is not just what I do...it's what I am. Bottom Line: The laser is a wonderful training tool to consider utilizing safely!

[JFootin]

Cudos, garyb! You get an A+ in the safety class!

I like the LT-PRO because it doesn't have to be loaded in the chamber like a bullet, and it doesn't stick out in front enough to interfere with practicing draw and fire from a holster. I plan to get one. Thanks, guys, for the info! :yo:

[Joe L]

GaryB--I don't think you are overboard at all. I had a close call yesterday that was a wake up call. I nearly removed a slide from my CM9 while there was a round in the chamber. I caught it, but it scared me pretty badly. I will not go the shop again without safety checking my carry gun, because I just may have forgotten that I reloaded the gun with carry ammo.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write up your safety concerns. I don't think your routine is too much at all. Good food for thought. I've been as close to an AD as I ever want to get.

Joe

[TucsonMTB]

Great thread, guys! Thanks for sharing! I can't justify the cost right now, but the video on the LT-Pro plus your comments make me a believer. :)

Link to LaserLyte LT-Pro page with video: http://www.laserlyte.com/New_Products/New_LT-PRO.html

[MikeyKahr]

Fortunately she was fine,and Sears replaced the TV.

So why did Sears replace the TV?

[ltxi]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that, too.