Excessive Mag Problems with PM9 & CM9?

[JFootin]

Hi, y'all. I am new to the forum, awaiting delivery of a new CM9. I spent a while reading threads on this forum and started seeing a pattern: an awful lot of reports of major issues with magazines in CM9s and PM9s, and quite a lot of magazine issues in the other polymer Kahrs. I started getting depressed! :(

I then did a Google search using "kahr magazine problems." There were more threads than anyone could read (try it and you'll see what I mean), on all the major gun forums, mostly about the PM and CM guns in 9mm and 40s&w! And there were lots of alarming complaints about poor customer service from Kahr: no answer to phone calls, no answer to emails, and always just the standard and inadequate replacement of the recoil spring or the magazine follower, with no willingness to admit that there are major design issues here that need to be FIXED! Also, the insistence that one use only one form of shipment that costs $40 to send guns back to them for service!

Another thing that I find highly unacceptable is Kahr's insistence that owners not rack the slide to load a round into the chamber, but only to do so using the magazine release. Again, this just illustrates that there is a serious existing problem with the design of their magazines, and they want to retrain owners instead of fixing the problem! It is irresponsible, bordering on criminal behavior, for them to continue to sell these guns, while denying that there is even a problem at all! If it were just one or two incidents, OK. But not with so many that there are multiple threads on every major gun forum, with replies from several other people having the same problems on every thread!

I know. Lots of people reply, saying that they have never had any problem with their guns. But the VERY LARGE number of complaints, and Kahr's unwillingness to admit to and address the problems with effective design changes, makes me have serious doubts about relying on a Kahr CM9 pistol for personal protection.

Have I bought a pig in a poke? :confused:

[TucsonMTB]

Nope! You're fine if you purchased it new. With a little pressure, Kahr will even pay for shipping if you have a problem. Admittedly, if you call them and act like a total jerk . . . all bets are off. Wait until you have a chance to shoot it. Then find something else that you can change to worry about, like maybe the rising US unemployment rate. ;)

By the way, of the two Kahrs I purchased, both new, one was perfect and the other went back to the factory. There is one tweak to the follower that is often needed if you experience nose dives. The follower may benefit from some sanding to gain some clearance between it and the magazine catch. It's an easy to do fix that costs nothing, is easy to reverse, and takes a few minutes. It might even be a good preventive step the first time you disassemble you magazine for cleaning. Now, relax! :D

[Bawanna]

What Tucson said and add the CM has had a very good track record so far. We haven't seen one yet that had to go back and only one or two that needed a little fine tuning that was taken care of by the owner with a little help from our friends.

Alot of what you read on the internet is a bunch of baloney. Read it absorb it, try to verify it if you can. Also you hear a 100 times more bad reports than good.

I'm confident you'll be a happy camper when your CM arrives and you'll know that I speak the truth.

Poor service from Kahr incidently is kind of an isolated thing too. We've heard of it now and then. Sometimes maybe even frequently we can write it off as poor communication. We also read of countless times when they went above and beyond to make things right. Their repairs are generally quite fast compared to others, usually a week or less.

[WilliamG]

Agreed. Stop worrying, really. People are more likely to complain than praise, so that might be part of the issue. I bought my PM9 new in the last month, and it's been nothing but a joy since day one. Even break-in I had no issues, with all six of my mags, 3x 6-round mags, and 3x 7-round mags.

[RogerP9fan]

Well, I broke in my new CM9 today and had the slide lock open 3 times in the middle of firing. Just had to hit the slide stop to resume firing. Thereafter, all went well and it's a very good shooting little gun. I sure hope there isn't any inherent design flaw in this little guy. I fired a total of 100 WWB 115g. (of course I've got another 100 to go)
Got the CW45 coming next week, you didn't mention any inherent design flaws with it.

[CJB]

Hi, y'all. I am new to the forum

Another thing that I find highly unacceptable is Kahr's insistence that owners not rack the slide to load a round into the chamber, but only to do so using the magazine release. Again, this just illustrates that there is a serious existing problem with the design of their magazines, and they want to retrain owners instead of fixing the problem!



Welcome!~

What you said (in the quote up there) is unadulterated misunderstanding of Kahr's guiding design ideals, and their implementation of the same, coupled with an incomplete comprehension of Kahr's decision to state what they do.

Kahr has developed the pistols in accordance to a design principle that makes size of the pistol a large consideration in the design process. Because of that, the amount of "overtravel" in the slide is very small. That is, on the slide's movement backward, once the slide clears the back of the round in the magazine it then almost immediately moves forward. On a design like the 1911, and many other pistols, the slide will continue rearward even though the breechface has fully passed the round in the magazine. On a 1911 this is quite nearly 1/2 inch of overtravel. On a Kahr PM45, its more like .060" overtravel.

Because of this, it is not out of the realm of reasonable and considerate thought, to imagine that a good deal of the shooting populace may have a problem getting that slide fully to the rear, withing .060" of where it needs to be, just to get that first round into the chamber. A lot of folks CAN do that successfully, but a lot of other folks cannot perform that maneuver.

Kahr's "insistence" is their way of promoting a method that works with the greatest number of shooters. The guns are up to having their slides racked, its not a design thing, but a "get the most shooters actually shooting" thing.

[RogerP9fan]

Ah, getting some very interesting facts rolling in now.......just wait till Bawanna and jocko get here lol :eek::D:eek:

[slowpoke]

I only have two Kahrs that I bought new. Both were perfect from day one.
I plan on one or two more.
I think that many of the complaints that are out there maybe from those who would take a gun out of the box and go to the range without any pre-lube. New Kahrs seem to like it clean and wet.

[Scimmia]

FWIW, I put 150 rounds through a new CM9 today, and racked the slide almost every time to see if I could duplicate the issue. It only happened once, and that was when I was riding the slide forward very slowly. I racked it very slowly a number of times, but it still only happened once. I'm not going to complain at all.

[Bawanna]

Ah, getting some very interesting facts rolling in now.......just wait till Bawanna and jocko get here lol :eek::D:eek:

I can't speak for Jocko, but Bawanna's done been here and gone. I think he took a midnight train to Georgia or maybe Nebraska.

Nothing to worry about here. Shoot it, love it, drink your kool aid and join the party.

[bigbob68]

No mag problems IMO. I have never had issue with mags from Kahr. They are the only mag that locks back 100% of the time. I sling shot my slide without issue and always load to capacity + 1. No conspiracy that I see.

[SkeletonSlinky]

"The follower may benefit from some sanding to gain some clearance between it and the magazine catch. It's an easy to do fix that costs nothing, is easy to reverse, and takes a few minutes. It might even be a good preventive step the first time you disassemble you magazine for cleaning. "

Been shooting my new PM9 with 100% reliability, both using the sling shot method and the Kahr recommendation...not one problem. Also did the "follower" mod as a simple preventative measure while I was putting it through it's prep...before I even took the first shot. Make sure you follow Jocko's Kahr Prep and the Kahr Lube chart in the Kahr Tech section before you shoot. No Fear - Look forward to your new CM!

[RogerP9fan]

Man, more great tips.......tak'in notes. But..where do you do the sanding on the follower? On the bottom part that hooks up with the mag spring? Or the very top where the bullet rests? Or that little circular bump on the side of the follower?

[SkeletonSlinky]

Check out the sticky in the Kahr Tech section called "CW45 (and other poly 45): issues and fixes". Read through that and you'll see the portion where Greg notes the simple modification to the follower to allow it to smoothly get past the magazine release. He's got great photos showing just what to do and how much to take off (applies to the PM/CM9 as well).

[RogerP9fan]

Awesome. Thanks very much.

[JFootin]

Thanks, everyone! I guess I overreacted. You're right. People post complaints most often, not praise. I will follow all of the good advice on the forum, break it in, check the follower carefully to see if it is binding against the magazine catch and sand it down if needed.

I am looking at the ultimate CC rig—an adjustable elastic shoulder rig that is featured on the Kahr website—the Active Pro Deep Concealment, listed in several sizes for both hands about 1/3 of the way down on the following link: http://www.kahr.com/PM9-Holsters/ALL/PM9-Holsters.aspx) It makes the gun and spare mag totally disappear under a shirt. Here is the maker's home page: http://www.activeprogear.com/234.html.

I have a great idea to reduce the time needed to draw the weapon: wear Western style shirts with snaps instead of buttons. You can grab both sides of the shirt and "rip" it open several snaps in a second. That's the way I undress when I wear Western shirts anyway. It doesn't damage the shirt or the snaps. A lot better than having to sew several buttons back on a shirt, or throw it away because it is torn!

[RogerP9fan]

Wow, you had a quick turn of Faith lol Took me longer, I was frustrated with another Kahr pistol from last year until after almost a year I started remembering all the good things about these pistols. And hey, if some need a little fine tuning....so be it.

[Rainman48314]

Hi, y'all. I am new to the forum, awaiting delivery of a new CM9. I spent a while reading threads on this forum and started seeing a pattern.....

It is irresponsible, bordering on criminal behavior, for them to continue to sell these guns, while denying that there is even a problem at all! .....


I wonder how much of what you read was from someone like yourself, i.e., NEVER fired the gun, don't own it yet? Criminal behavior, really? Perhaps YOUR comments could be considered libel! It's possible that Kahr is trying to keep you alive with its recommended method of chambering a round. Some owners want to carry this SD gun with an empty chamber. This then puts them in the position of NEEDING to rack the slide under stress and in a hurry..a bad combination. Kahr's way is a sure way.

My PM9 is barely broken-in but can be racked slingshot style. It locks back on empty.

Most of what you read is shooter error or ignorance. More than half these owners have not read the Owner's Manual.

Oh, and Welcome to the Kahr Forum

[Popeye]

I've never had any problems sling shot racking the slide and chambering a round. As far as the mags I can't say I've ever had a problem with them either. Having said that though, I do take them apart and clean them with WD40 every couple hundred rounds. I do that with all my pistols not just the PM9.

[jocko]

Hell give me any brand gun and I can find something to bit-h about, lets face it we are complainers, Just some that some people keep their complaints to themselves insteadof posting them on theinternet and basically making a damn fool out of them selves. Probably the only think criminal about kahrs is that some criminals own them. Ireally don't sit here and have my 3 kahrs in front of me making notes of what I want to post on this forum and others to bi-ch about. It is perfectly all right to come forwardand comment about someissues that one is having and most of the time THIS FORUM has the answers for you. Many as some have posted is the fact that in the manual there are things that kahrs tells a shooter that he should know and as we know many just wipe their ass with the manuals, for we all know more than those stupid manuals anyways.

[gb6491]

JFootin,
Welcome to the forums:)
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with some here as I feel that the magazines do need improvement. That said, I don't think you'll find you bought "a pig in a poke" and that you'll find your new CM9 a worthwhile firearm.
Regards,
Greg

[garyb]

JFootin,
+1 on support for Kahr. My PM40 runs like a dream. Just attended a dry fire and live fire training program yesterday with my wife. Another 100 rounds and my Kahr was flawless once again. Never a failure of any kind with every reload and every manufacturer's ammo I've tried. My Kahr eats her ammo like she enjoys it. Never a mag problem. Never a problem chambering a round either method described. Kahr has always responded to my inquiries. I don't see ANY major design issues of any kind. From my perspective, I wonder what % of the problems were operator error or simply the result of difficult people to deal with. Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones, but I know of too many other people who love their Kahrs. It should be expected that there will be problems with anything mechanical out there, with any manufacturer's guns, cars, etc... I have to believe Kahr stands behind their products. Sounding like another unhappy customer only adds to "potential" negative nonsense. Give your new gun time to break in. Prep it right. Look forward to good things with your new gun. If you have issues, learn from these folks who know their stuff. There is a good knowledge base to draw from on this forum. My advice at this point is to start thinking positive and bring good things to yourself.

[jlottmc]

Well said Gary. I have two Kahr pistols (ok one is the wife's, but still I get to shoot it and clean it), I have not had a problem that wasn't my doing. Like others have said, we hear more about the ones that slip through the cracks than we do of success. I know an officer that is about to become a Kahr convert, and while any gun is a tool, it helps to know that the maker stands behind them. Another lesson I learned years ago in the Corps was to get the lay of the land and see what is going on, BEFORE I form an opinion or jump in. Take that little pop gun out after you prep it (FWIW I do the same for ANY gun I haven't owned or sometimes even shot), shoot it till you bleed, clean it, reload it, and repeat. You'll enjoy it, now get to it.

[JFootin]

Thanks again, everyone, including jocko. I'm embarrassed. :o Now, I wish I could delete the thread. :84:

[garyb]

JFootin,
We have probably all been there and done that too...speaking for myself, that is. Don't worry about it. Hope you enjoy your new gun and welcome to the forum. You're guaranteed to learn some good stuff here and get picked on a little too. But it's all good. Let the harsh stuff run off and let the stuff you learn stick. No problem. Try to have some fun.

[knkali]

I cannot bash the OP since I just bought a Kahr P40 and am waiting for delivery. During my trying out of P40's, six of them had mags that would not eject--some did not move at all when the eject button was pressed. I found one that did eject the empty mags but this experience almost made me walk away from Kahr. I will give my first impression on or around 6/15. I understand that I must cycle this gun through 250+ rnd before making any decisions good or bad. I am coming from a Sig P230 for ccw which eats any type of ammo and has been perfect for years but as techno in gun making has now allowed me to upgrade caliber, lose weapon weight, and keep the same size, I thought it was time to change. Kahr fits that bill.

[myname]

Hell give me any brand gun and I can find something to bit-h about, lets face it we are complainers, Just some that some people keep their complaints to themselves insteadof posting them on theinternet and basically making a damn fool out of them selves. Probably the only think criminal about kahrs is that some criminals own them. Ireally don't sit here and have my 3 kahrs in front of me making notes of what I want to post on this forum and others to bi-ch about. It is perfectly all right to come forwardand comment about someissues that one is having and most of the time THIS FORUM has the answers for you. Many as some have posted is the fact that in the manual there are things that kahrs tells a shooter that he should know and as we know many just wipe their ass with the manuals, for we all know more than those stupid manuals anyways.

Ah cmon Jocko tell us how you really feel...:D

[garyb]

During my trying out of P40's, six of them had mags that would not eject--some did not move at all when the eject button was pressed. I found one that did eject the empty mags but this experience almost made me walk away from Kahr.

Yea...We're aware and have heard the same about Glocks and other manufacturer's too. Seriously, a very good LEO friend of mine is a Glock lover. It's his sword and it is all he owns. Two of his Glocks don't drop them either. He still loves and pushes his Glocks as the only way to go. Mags not dropping does bother some and but does not bother others. Probably can read the same thing on the Glock forums. Probably an easy way of tweeking things to make them work the way you want them too, if it is researched a little. I happen to like my mags to drop. All 5 of them do...ever since the first time out of the box. Good stuff.

[knkali]

I am going to keep my trap shut for now and wait to fire the weapon. Great group here. Glad I found this place

[les strat]

Funny thing is, I bought a Promag to use at the range with my CM9, and it cycles fine, does not allow 2nd round to nose dive, and drops easily. I still carry with the stock one.

[jocko]

Ah cmon Jocko tell us how you really feel...:D

I though I just did:D

[jocko]

Thanks again, everyone, including jocko. I'm embarrassed. :o Now, I wish I could delete the thread. :84:

no harm, no foul, IMO. My post was no more directed at you than anyone else, Just my personal feelings from reading thousands of posts from owner, and future owners.

No doubt some want their magazines to come flying out when that button is hit be it by accident or not. My PM9 has never dropped magazines since the day I got it over 4+ years ago, I have gotten so used to them not doing it, that I am extremely fast in removal, as my G19 would only drop one magazine and not the other, so I just figured it might be a polymer thing but again I don't carry a spare magazine and if I hit the mag release I do not have to worry about it dropping on the ground or where ever. So for me I am comfortable with it. There are some tricks posted on this forum that sometimes helps. I am sure that if you demand that kahr fix it so that they do, that they will indeed do so, proably on ur dme to and not theirs. I do know in their manual they say about takeing the magazine out to hit the release button and then PULL THE MAGAZINE out of the gun. I guess u can intrepet that any way you want. I mainly think it is the magazines and not the gun itself as like I stated my G19 came with two magazines, one drops free,the other sticks. Someone on here even did alittle (I call it mashing) compressing of the magazine tube on the kahr mags and reported back that it worked fine. One can get his magazines to fall freely in his kahrs if that is his desire, it's just what avenue u decide to travel on to getter done.

by the way u the poster can delete anythread that you posted..

[Joe L]

...Someone on here even did alittle (I call it mashing) compressing of the magazine tube on the kahr mags and reported back that it worked fine. One can get his magazines to fall freely in his kahrs if that is his desire, it's just what avenue u decide to travel on to getter done...

That would be me. I have received two more magazines to use for an IDPA match this coming weekend. For that type of competition, a clean mag drop is pretty important, but I am sure I can make all my mags drop properly, just like the original one that came with my little gun. I am also going to install plastic end caps on all three mags. Photos tomorrow.

Joe L

[GOOFA]

Thanks again, everyone, including jocko. I'm embarrassed. :o Now, I wish I could delete the thread. :84:

JFootin... There's no reason to be embarrassed or apologetic. Your post was well thought out and no one wants to purchase a firearm or any other product nowadays thinking whether or not are you going to have a problem with it. Problems are a big PITA and nobody wants to deal with that. As far as a consumer goes , you did a lot of research and now you made your decision and can only hope for the best.

This is a great forum, and I don't want to see it get to the point where members can't express their views about Kahr firearms with the fear of being ridiculed. There are already a few forums like that, which I will leave nameless where members are reluctant to submit their views and negative comments due to the verbal bashing they will receive. These forums are great for learning and the best places to go for help, let's keep them that way.

[Bawanna]

JFootin... There's no reason to be embarrassed or apologetic. Your post was well thought out and no one wants to purchase a firearm or any other product nowadays thinking whether or not are you going to have a problem with it. Problems are a big PITA and nobody wants to deal with that. As far as a consumer goes , you did a lot of research and now you made your decision and can only hope for the best.

This is a great forum, and I don't want to see it get to the point where members can't express their views about Kahr firearms with the fear of being ridiculed. There are already a few forums like that, which I will leave nameless where members are reluctant to submit their views and negative comments due to the verbal bashing they will receive. These forums are great for learning and the best places to go for help, let's keep them that way.

I'll second this one. Good post GOOFA. We're here to help make things right and sometimes make good things even better. Sometimes it isn't even a Kahr but quite often it is. Reasonable opinions and views are a good thing, we get a occasional new person with a burr under their saddle that just wants to bash and not listen to reason. Not good, but it doesn't take long to see how their stripes run and even they are entitled to their opinion long as the are civil about it.

[Allen]

What a great thread. I don't own a Kahr (yet) and am still undecided whether a CM or PM9 so far, but what an education I'm getting on this site. After owning a Beretta mod 85 .380 for over 25 years its hard to believe what I have to learn about the newer small auto.

Appreciate all the experienced replys to posts.

[ritz]

I own a pm9 and read a lot of the same. I contacted them and had it explained to me. It's not the magazine that is the reason for having to use the slide release to rack the first round. It's due to their offset feed ramp design. They offset their feed ramp to allow the barrel to sit lower in the frame, reducing muzzle flip. The result is the racking problem. I personally think the trade iff is worth it. Other than the mag not really sitting flush to the bottom of the grip, I've had no other issues with mine. I have over a thousand rounds through it so far, and it's been PERFECTLY reliable. The mag not sitting flush is just a looks thing, so I can live with that. It's been a great gun otherwise. They could use to make this better known to the public though so they aren't getting swamped with so many complaints. My guess is that most of the complainers are just not informed.