Liability insurance for self defense shootings

[TheTman]

The USCCA (US Concealed Carry Association) is offering insurance in case some scumbag's family sues you for shooting their little darling. Might not be a bad idea to look into. I'm thinking about it. Thought I'd pass the info on. I think everyone can look at the sales pitch, have to be a member to sign up for it. Especially if you live in a liberal environment.
http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/self-defense-shield/upgrade.asp?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email03-6-7-MEMBERS%20(1)&utm_content=

[Longitude Zero]

Good but.......

The claims that you never have to worry don't look to be true. The policies, as do all insurance policies, have limits. If the jury decides to hit you with a verdict 10 times the maximum payout who pays the excess... why the citizen of course.

As to the lawyer bills most every attorney I know reguires $50,000 as an up front retainer in a self defense case. In a recent case where I live the lawyers bill topped One Million dollars and he still lost.

So they are IMHO way OVERSELLING the potential benefits. Also what they are showing is only an add and not the actual policy which is where the devil is in the details.

Not to be a naysayer but if even the NRA barely got involved in something like this and USCCA jumps in???????

Thanks for the post it certainly looks like it might have limited benefits.

[TucsonMTB]

I always worry when you have to work really hard to find the prices. ;)

In fact, Google found lots of people questioning the value of their regular stuff but, no clear pricing. Pass . . .

[Thunder71]

I agree, if I have to sign up as a member just to find out what the pricing is other than:
$ $$ $$$ I'm not interested.

The guy is a marketing specialist, plain and simple.

[paul34]

Here is another option that has been around for a while.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/


Network membership costs $85 per year and additional household members may be added to the membership for an additional $50/yr. each. Three-year memberships are available for $225 and 10-year memberships for $650. If you are ready to join, we welcome you to do so by one of these convenient methods:

[TucsonMTB]

Currently we subscribe to Pre-Paid Legal Service, Inc (http://www.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/legal_plans/cost.html). they employ a Phoenix based law firm of significant size in our area. I hesitated to mention them earlier because I am not sure if they are as well represented in other areas of the country. Thus, YMMV. ;)

[rwblue01]

What if it is a bad shoot?
**** happens, people screw up.

The cops shot a guy with a cell phone the other day.

[knkali]

who picks your attorney?

[Diocoles]

The guy at USCCA picks the cases and reviews them.
They will only pay out if it's a justified shooting.
There are limits and it sounds like very little.
$3500 to start I believe if your case qualifies.

Most lawyers retainers are more than that.

In a justified shooting, it may come in nice, but if there's any grey areas whatsoever... good luck.

I also agree that they are just good sales people.
The forum is just like any other, but you have to pay to belong.
The information there is no different than what you find elsewhere for free.
None of the materials they sell are of any value if you have common sense and have internet access.
I was a member for a few years and no longer am.
No interest in paying for what is free. No other benefits there except what you have to pay extra for.

[Kahrson]

A prosecuting attorney may very well use the fact that you bought the insurance with a forethought of pre meditation. So if the insurance company declines to take your case in support of you because they have reservations that it's not a justifiable shooting that is not going to look good. You just dug a deep hole much deeper and you are still out the money for membership and premiums you have payed besides

To me the whole thing looks like a money grab by this USCCA group.

[Thunder71]

They decide? Pfft... definitely pass, if I'm paying I'm going to be represented.

That's like getting tried before your trial... if they don't 'accept you' why would the court decide any different.

Nice scam there.

[TheTman]

My prices are 97.05, 167.05 and 265.07 for the silver, gold, and platinum policies. Thats per year
You have to be a member as they take part of your membership money and deduct it from the premium. Most other things like this you have to be a member of some outfit or another.

[knkali]

I see you pick the attorney so that is answered

GOOD point Kahrson!

[TheTman]

Not surprisingly, they've had a lot of questions about this, here is an email I got this morning:

Good morning Thomas,

A member asked me a very important question last night:

"Self Defense SHIELD sounds great, but the devil's in the details:

Am I going to use my gun to defend myself, only to find out it doesn't help people who are in their cars when they use their gun, or even outside of their home?"

My favorite thing about Self-Defense SHIELD is that it protects us armed citizens everywhere.

As long as you legally posses your gun (the gun's not stolen and you're not a felon) Self-Defense SHIELD grants you the exact same benefits all the time.

> At home - you're protected.

> In your car - you're protected.

> In a public area - you're protected.

> In a private area - you're protected.

> In any of the 50 US states or territories... you're protected.

=> Self-Defense SHIELD is always turned on. (wlmailhtml:{4A28566B-8035-4A61-88F9-2ACBE680D630}mid://00000004/!x-usc:http://links.mkt3804.com/ctt?kn=2&ms=MTQwMjAwNwS2&r=NTY1NTI1NzgyS0&b=0&j=MjgwNzk5NDAS1&mt=1&rt=0)

This answers another very important question that someone asked me:

"Tim, I always worry that I'm going to accidentally end up in some gun free zone. I hate how I can go from 'good guy' to 'criminal' just by taking one step through some invisible line. Will Self-Defense SHIELD ABANDON me if I do something like this on accident?"

Thomas, Self-Defense SHIELD understands your second amendment, not imaginary lines.

The bottom line is this:

=> Self-Defense SHIELD will NEVER (wlmailhtml:{4A28566B-8035-4A61-88F9-2ACBE680D630}mid://00000004/!x-usc:http://links.mkt3804.com/ctt?kn=2&ms=MTQwMjAwNwS2&r=NTY1NTI1NzgyS0&b=0&j=MjgwNzk5NDAS1&mt=1&rt=0)
abandon you (wlmailhtml:{4A28566B-8035-4A61-88F9-2ACBE680D630}mid://00000004/!x-usc:http://links.mkt3804.com/ctt?kn=2&ms=MTQwMjAwNwS2&r=NTY1NTI1NzgyS0&b=0&j=MjgwNzk5NDAS1&mt=1&rt=0)

If you have ANY other questions, they are all answered on the page above. If you still have questions, give us a call: (877) 987-7443

Stay safe,


--
Tim Schmidt
Founder
U.S. Concealed Carry



I don't want you all to get the idea that I'm promoting this or making money off of it, I just wanted to share a product that might be useful. I see it hasn't been very well received, but I wanted to answer a couple of questions and post this email, then I will drop it. - Tman

[jocko]

I carry a million dollar rider policy of excess liability on my home owners policy for $150. It will do the same thing. These people are not the underlying writers of this policy. It would mean more to me if I could review some "claims" that they had to represent for the owner of the policy.

No offense but it sounds like something that a simple rider on ur existing home owners policy will cover.

[Longitude Zero]

A prosecuting attorney may very well use the fact that you bought the insurance with a forethought of pre meditation. So if the insurance company declines to take your case in support of you because they have reservations that it's not a justifiable shooting that is not going to look good. You just dug a deep hole much deeper and you are still out the money for membership and premiums you have payed besides

To me the whole thing looks like a money grab by this USCCA group.

Fortunately in my home state of OK that would get you an automatic mistrial. DA's are forbidden by rule of even mentioning potential insurance in a criminal proceeding. It is just as off limits as mentioning a defendants prior history prior to an actual conviction. Past criminal history cna only be used in the penalty phase.

[knkali]

I carry a million dollar rider policy of excess liability on my home owners policy for $150. It will do the same thing. These people are not the underlying writers of this policy. It would mean more to me if I could review some "claims" that they had to represent for the owner of the policy.

No offense but it sounds like something that a simple rider on ur existing home owners policy will cover.


Jocko, I asked my ins rep this question and the questions to me were: "did you intentionally shoot the man?" If yes, then it is not a covered event.
"Did you shoot someone by accident?" Might be covered.

[paul34]

I'll admit, I'm instantly skeptical once I hear it is from USCCA. They've always seemed to be way overpriced for what they are, even for their membership.

[O'Dell]

I've been carrying a 2 million umbrella liability policy for several years. That way I can carry the minimum liability coverage on my cars, house, rental properties, and of course, it would cover any liability involving my guns. Maybe I should raise the limits.

[knkali]

guys, please chk your ins carrier to see if your liability coverage will cover the shooting of an invader in your home or an incident where you shoot someone in self defense. I was told it will not. However, if you drop your gun and it goes off and hurts someone or causes property damage, you could be covered.

Any ins people here?

[O'Dell]

guys, please chk your ins carrier to see if your liability coverage will cover the shooting of an invader in your home or an incident where you shoot someone in self defense. I was told it will not. However, if you drop your gun and it goes off and hurts someone or causes property damage, you could be covered.

Any ins people here?

Yes, mine does.

[knkali]

please pm me your carrier's name. I might be switching to them.

[TheTman]

Someone posted they only cover up to a certain amount, and what if you have to pay a million dollars to the scumbags family. I see this as being no different then having an auto accident and killing someone (much more likely than a self defense shooting) and being sued for millions of dollars. How many of us have auto insurance to cover a multimillion dollar claim? If you're like me you carry what you can afford and hope for the best.

Jocko, this is a brand new deal so I don't think there are any claims to review. They do say they helped a guy traveling by air with a handgun escape being charged with a felony over some kind of screw up with his luggage or something. Anyway he was in possesion of a handgun in NYC, through no fault of his own and they tried to crucify the guy and the USCCA helped him out.

Does the USCCA have a bad rep for ripping people off or something? I know they've sent me a couple of investement deals I ignored. But this deal sounded like something that could come in handy, so thought I'd pass it on. I sure hope I didn't offend you all. My apologies if I did.

[Bawanna]

I'm with you thetmanski, I just buy what I can afford and hope for the best. Insurance to me has always been a major rip off in all regards. Your covered for everything except on wednesdays between 8 and 4 unless it's raining. Oh your 15 year old dog died, that voided the coverage for your new dog since the premium is raised and we weren't notified. Created by a bunch of bottom feeders who feed on themselves and each other and get the government to subsidize them by making it required.
Here in Washington its a law to have insurance on your car. 550 dollar fine if you dont have it. Most still don't have it. Usually the ones that run into people I know. They don't get me too often I'm too wicked quick.

Far as self defense insurance I figure I'm gonna be crucified. I don't even know a criminal defense lawyer let alone carry the phone number for one around in my wallet for every town I visit like Ayoob suggest.

All the more reason to use restraint and not pull the pistol till theres no other options.

I'm far more concerned about getting my firearms insured against O'Dell, I mean theft or fire etc. I keep meaning to find out if they are or not and get a add on if necessary. If they got took I believe that would break my heart.

[TheTman]

I just googled "insurance for self defense shootings" and there are a lot of options available. The NRA does endorse one company. And many others offer insurance. The armed citizen network mentioned earlier sounds like a good one. I just never gave it much thought until I got the email from the USCCA and that got me to thinking "what if..." I'm trying to check with my insurer to see if I'm already covered, probably not.

[O'Dell]

I'm far more concerned about getting my firearms insured against O'Dell, I mean theft or fire etc. I keep meaning to find out if they are or not and get a add on if necessary. If they got took I believe that would break my heart.[/QUOTE]



Hey Bawanna, you don't have to insure your guns against me. I promise I won't drive 2500 miles from Atlanta to Washington State to steal or set fire to your guns. :D

Seriously, I can vouch for ArmsCare, the company that underwrites the NRA insurance. I filed a claim after my HO insurance paid their reduced amount, and they came through fairly and promptly. I'm buying a $10,000 policy from them for the future, which means I'll probably never need it.

[jocko]

I guess until one gets sued, you really don't know what kind of liability coverage u really have either. Iam sure u can ask an insurance agent a question like this gun stuff and get a totally off the wall answer that would not hold up in any court be it pro or con even.

Becuase u shoot an in truder in ur hom etc, does not mean ur gonna get sued, let alone loose, We tend to worry about some things that no kind of money, insuracne coverage can cover. IOhave no issues with this USCCA I used to take their magazine but for me it was way way to much for such little gained for me. If u feel better with their insurance over what u can probalby get from ur local agent, the indeed go with it, for again 99.995% will never have to use it to see if it is worth a sh-t or not.

My motorcycle insuracne covers 3K in riding apparrel. When I got into that wreck last Sept. my glasses were destroyed and they determined that they were my normal "seeing" glasses so they would not cover them. So I guess I need to by what they might call riding glasses for 3 to 400 bucks in order for them to cover. Makes no sense, so don't be illussioned by some of this insurance stuff, U can ask them all the questions u want, doesn't mean a damn thing down the road if needed. ANY INSURANCE company will look for some escape clause if there is one for them to pursue. Car, home, u name it, they are all the same. Most companies right everything..

If your liabili ty policy does not specifically say it will not cover any gun related incidents then they are going tohave a hard trime IMO walking away form liability if u are proven to be at fault. Remember u have t obe at fault and I would certainly think if an intruder comes into your home the courts are gonna side with u and again I seriously doubt if that case would ever make it top any civil court to.

[Bawanna]

I'm far more concerned about getting my firearms insured against O'Dell, I mean theft or fire etc. I keep meaning to find out if they are or not and get a add on if necessary. If they got took I believe that would break my heart.



Hey Bawanna, you don't have to insure your guns against me. I promise I won't drive 2500 miles from Atlanta to Washington State to steal or set fire to your guns. :D

Seriously, I can vouch for ArmsCare, the company that underwrites the NRA insurance. I filed a claim after my HO insurance paid their reduced amount, and they came through fairly and promptly. I'm buying a $10,000 policy from them for the future, which means I'll probably never need it.[/QUOTE]

Thats usually the case with me, you'll never have a flat tire when you have a spare and the tools to change it. $10,000 wouldn't go very far with your toy box would it. Not nearly enough to replace them all.
I better check them out now that this has come up. I know you get a minimal amount just for being a member, have to pay extra for larger amounts.

If you ever do drive the 2500 miles let me know, I'll spring for dinner, the least I can do. Bring the Boxer, never rode in one before. Might make sure the top goes up, it rains sometimes here, don't want to mess up your hair ya know?

[O'Dell]

Hey Bawanna, you don't have to insure your guns against me. I promise I won't drive 2500 miles from Atlanta to Washington State to steal or set fire to your guns. :D

Seriously, I can vouch for ArmsCare, the company that underwrites the NRA insurance. I filed a claim after my HO insurance paid their reduced amount, and they came through fairly and promptly. I'm buying a $10,000 policy from them for the future, which means I'll probably never need it.

Thats usually the case with me, you'll never have a flat tire when you have a spare and the tools to change it. $10,000 wouldn't go very far with your toy box would it. Not nearly enough to replace them all.
I better check them out now that this has come up. I know you get a minimal amount just for being a member, have to pay extra for larger amounts.

If you ever do drive the 2500 miles let me know, I'll spring for dinner, the least I can do. Bring the Boxer, never rode in one before. Might make sure the top goes up, it rains sometimes here, don't want to mess up your hair ya know?[/QUOTE]

Well that's $10,000 + the $2500 through the NRA + $3000 from my HO's - yeah, I think that would cover it.

I promise I'd drive the Boxter - You didn't think I'd drive that far in a Prius or on a CBR 600 did you?

[Bawanna]

Thats usually the case with me, you'll never have a flat tire when you have a spare and the tools to change it. $10,000 wouldn't go very far with your toy box would it. Not nearly enough to replace them all.
I better check them out now that this has come up. I know you get a minimal amount just for being a member, have to pay extra for larger amounts.

If you ever do drive the 2500 miles let me know, I'll spring for dinner, the least I can do. Bring the Boxer, never rode in one before. Might make sure the top goes up, it rains sometimes here, don't want to mess up your hair ya know?

Well that's $10,000 + the $2500 through the NRA + $3000 from my HO's - yeah, I think that would cover it.

I promise I'd drive the Boxter - You didn't think I'd drive that far in a Prius or on a CBR 600 did you?[/QUOTE]

If arson is your plan I'll supply the gas and compustibles, not take up so much room on the way out. If theft is your goal you might want to get a U Haul. So it's Boxter? not boxer. I want to make sure I got the terminology right in case I'm trying to dazzle anyone with my car knowlege ya know?

[jocko]

you dazzle me every time u post!!!!

[Longitude Zero]

ALMOST ALL homeowners policies deny coverage for what they call an "intentional tort". Shooting an intruder is automatically considered an intentional tort and disavowed. I know this is true for Prudential, State Farm, and Farmers home insurance companies.

[knkali]

ALMOST ALL homeowners policies deny coverage for what they call an "intentional tort". Shooting an intruder is automatically considered an intentional tort and disavowed. I know this is true for Prudential, State Farm, and Farmers home insurance companies.

exactly what i was told ...just you said it better.

[jocko]

well in Indiana with the advent of the castle doctrine law even expanded, a home invasion in my opinion is just maybe one or two more rounds in the intruder. Dead men can't tell their side of the story.

[knkali]

well in Indiana with the advent of the castle doctrine law even expanded, a home invasion in my opinion is just maybe one or two more rounds in the intruder. Dead men can't tell their side of the story.

Point understood:33:

[Bawanna]

Except that dead man was his momma's favorite and he was well on the road to being a fine boy after his 13 years in the penetentiary. You got to pay for the grief and suffering you caused his momma.

He was just stealing your worldly possessions and maybe making advances towards your wife or daughter since he was already there. Weren't no need to take his life. He didn't mean nothing with that knife and that toy gun. He was just funnin ya. He was on the trustee program the last 6 months of his prison time and just a fine boy.


Holy quacamole 8,001 bawanna! Get a life dude.

[jocko]

i was just going to mention that, what an accomplishment and to think in ur 8001 posts u have not managed to pi-s me off.

[Bawanna]

i was just going to mention that, what an accomplishment and to think in ur 8001 posts u have not managed to pi-s me off.

Oh I'm sure I managed to fog your goggles a time or two. Last I looked it was about 7600 and I thought holy moly, well here it is.

Metrics rule! Did that fire ya up some?

[garyb]

Anymore the legal and insurance systems make it cheaper to let him break into your home, steal your belongings, rape and murder your wife and daughter, and then have you bend over before taking a bullet yourself. Between the legal crap and insurance failures, an honest man has no other choice but to request some lube first. Fact of the matter is that it will be a life changing event either way and it's a tough decision we make to be on one end rather than the other. We were only given the right to keep and bare arms. Using them for self defense is another matter entirely and as you've all noticed, it keeps getting more and more expensive at every turn.

[jocko]

after 3 breaks in ,,, in my business, I kept my 110# yellow lab in the business at night and when the insurance peole came one day to do an audit, they ask me what kind of security I had in the business and I told them my 110# lab, and they said, get that dog out of this business. I said it is in here only after closing hours and through the night, they said they didn't care, they didn't want any dog in the building. Indeed they would rather pay for the loss instead of maybe the intruder getting his ass torn up and sueinfg them. Makes no sense but I got my doig outta there.

Now I used to story my 50# of bloack powder in a regulation rubber tired locked vault type safe in the back of my business and they told me to get it out of the building or I would not be covered. made no sense but I did and when ATF came to do an audit, they ask where my black powder was stored and I told them outside in a little buildingj, and they said NOPE not gonna work, it has to be in your business in that insulated lockable rubber tired vault that I had bought that was at that time ATF legal. So I had to pay merry go round with these two a-hole companies. When the nsurace people were coming in to my place the powder went outside and it was hunky dorrie and as soon as they left I brought it back inside so when ATF came it was also hunky dorrie.

OH my I am so glad I retired 14 years ago and said fokk it to all that b.s...

[jocko]

Metrics rule! Did that fire ya up some

oh yes, ur getting damn close!! damn close!!

[Bawanna]

Metrics rule! Did that fire ya up some

oh yes, ur getting damn close!! damn close!!

Whens your trip to Rockford again. Coming up pretty soon?

You gotta know I was tugging your leg on that metric thing.

[Rainman48314]

The USCCA (US Concealed Carry Association) is offering insurance in case some scumbag's family sues you for shooting their little darling. Might not be a bad idea to look into. I'm thinking about it. Thought I'd pass the info on. I think everyone can look at the sales pitch, have to be a member to sign up for it. Especially if you live in a liberal environment.
http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/self-defense-shield/upgrade.asp?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email03-6-7-MEMBERS%20(1)&utm_content=I received regular pre-sale announcements by email for a couple of weeks. I was not a member until June 6th when they launched Defense Shield. Of the three levels of protection, I bought the middle at $197 per year. That includes membership and other benefits that come with membership. Some insurance is better than no insurance. I will be reading the fine print when my member kit arrives.

[Kahrson]

Fortunately in my home state of OK that would get you an automatic mistrial. DA's are forbidden by rule of even mentioning potential insurance in a criminal proceeding. It is just as off limits as mentioning a defendants prior history prior to an actual conviction. Past criminal history cna only be used in the penalty phase.

So in other words you can take out a million dollar life insurance policy on your wife one day and kill her the next and they are prohibited by law to use the insurance policy you just bought for a million as a motivating factor? Not arguing with you I just find that rather amazing. :confused:

[TheTman]

My Insurance agent says I'm covered unless it's something they consider "stupid". Now, what in the hell do they consider "stupid"? They said something like waving my pistol around and it goes off. Well if I'm waving my pistol around and it goes off, I'm meaning to wave it at someone and hoping it goes off.

[TheTman]

Thanks for being our guinea pig Rainman, Let us know what you think of it when you get the policy.

[Longitude Zero]

In that case it would be probative as to motive and would be allowed. What is not allowed is for the plaintiff to bring up you have insurance to pay for your tort and that that you the defendant won't have to pay anything it is the big bad insurance company that will be writing the check.

In a criminal case most judges limit the mention of insurance to use as to prove motive only. If it is not probative as to motive then it is best to not mention it. If the DA cannot prove insurance is part and parcel of motive then.....judges discretion.

[Rainman48314]

Thanks for being our guinea pig Rainman, Let us know what you think of it when you get the policy.
I will. There is already missinformation posted in this thread. There is no one man determination of your benefits from the first (uninsured) level. The next level is an insurance contract. It involves a subsidiary of Meadowbrook, a very reputable organization. Members are beneficiaries, not policy owners. The USCCA owns the policy so that YOU are not targeted in lawsuits simply by the presence of insurance. Coverage is for ALL household members in the event of a shooting at home. If you concealed carry, it is only for the USCCA member. They are working on a "family" CCW rider. For now, both parties must take separate memberships. More to follow.

[O'Dell]

In that case it would be probative as to motive and would be allowed. What is not allowed is for the plaintiff to bring up you have insurance to pay for your tort and that that you the defendant won't have to pay anything it is the big bad insurance company that will be writing the check.

In a criminal case most judges limit the mention of insurance to use as to prove motive only. If it is not probative as to motive then it is best to not mention it. If the DA cannot prove insurance is part and parcel of motive then.....judges discretion.

Exactly right.