What's up with Europeans?

[TheTman]

I get the impression that the guys across the pond think the 9mm x 19 is the ultimate caliber, and are perfectly happy with a .380 or .32 even for police work, while many of us consider the 9mm x 19 the smallest caliber we will carry. The .380 is kind of on the edge for me, might consider it for summer carry where it didnt have to penetrate much clothing. I do have a .32 Tomcat I bought years ago when there weren't many pocket pistols available in other than .25, but I rarely carry that, only to places I'm 99.9% sure I won't need it. I'm not sure citizens over there are even allowed to own handguns, I don't think you can own one in England unless you keep it at the "shooting club" or some such nonsense.

What's up with that? Are they legislated to smaller calibers over there?
My thinking is that our cowboy heritage with .44 and .45 pistols, and our experience with the .38 special in the Spanish American War has taught us bigger is better.
Plus I think they have cleared out all the deadly game over there, no "bear" country to warrant a .44 mag or better.
That's just something I been wondering about for a long time.

[O'Dell]

I get the impression that the guys across the pond think the 9mm x 19 is the ultimate caliber, and are perfectly happy with a .380 or .32 even for police work, while many of us consider the 9mm x 19 the smallest caliber we will carry. The .380 is kind of on the edge for me, might consider it for summer carry where it didnt have to penetrate much clothing. I do have a .32 Tomcat I bought years ago when there weren't many pocket pistols available in other than .25, but I rarely carry that, only to places I'm 99.9% sure I won't need it. I'm not sure citizens over there are even allowed to own handguns, I don't think you can own one in England unless you keep it at the "shooting club" or some such nonsense.

What's up with that? Are they legislated to smaller calibers over there?
My thinking is that our cowboy heritage with .44 and .45 pistols, and our experience with the .38 special in the Spanish American War has taught us bigger is better.
Plus I think they have cleared out all the deadly game over there, no "bear" country to warrant a .44 mag or better.
That's just something I been wondering about for a long time.

I don't know why they favor the smaller rounds over there, especially the 9x19, but I've been there and they do. My gun interest had sorta waned in the 80's and 90's when I traveled there a lot. I do remember seldom seeing a 40 cal and practically never a 45 in Europe.

Mostly I shoot 45, but have recently warmed up to the 40, mainly the CW40 and M&P c 40 for carry. My PM9 and old C9 car gun are the only 9's I own, but my son gave me an LCP for Christmas. I wish he hadn't - the pistol has made me lazy, because it's so easy to drop it in a pocket and forget about it. I always feel uneasy later carrying a 380 for protection.

[Longitude Zero]

It is my understanding the in European countries civilian s are not permitted to own weapons of "military" caliber. That is why you see many sub-calibers and weird sizes. At least that is what I have been told is true in most over the pond countries.

[TheTman]

Oh that is probably true LZ, I know the same is true is some South American countries. I've really taking a liking to the .40, it packs about the same or more FPE than many .45 rounds. Just doesn't leave quite a big a hole. And most guns give you an extra round or two over .45, Kahr being an exception. I'm a believer in the old saying don't bring nothing to a gunfight that's caliber doesn't start in a 4. So my carry guns are .40, .44 special, and .45. There is a little pocket 9 Im lusting after if they ever get it on the market, it's about the same size as a P380, but can deliver a 9mm +P punch. Weird looking little guy, and is totally different in it's feeding system, but delivers over 3" of barrel in a very small package. They're hoping to start taking orders for it this month, but they been saying that for awhile now. I guess they're looking for a good machinist to produce the frames.
http://kartalk.pccomps.com/BobergXR9S.jpg

[TD2K]

smaller people, smaller cars, smaller bullets.

makes sense to me. ;)

[Dietrich]

smaller people, smaller cars, smaller bullets.

makes sense to me. ;)


Well stated!!TD2K has vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals.:)

[TD2K]

but if my "vision" was very accurate, the chinese would only use .22s. ;)

[les strat]

Some 9mm+P is as good as most .40 ammo IMO.

The FBI did fine with .38SP for years. One shot drops don't always happen like in the movies with any carry caliber.

[CJB]

Great topic.

First of all - the 9x19, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Nato.. whatever ya want to call it, was invented in Europe by a European. So, they hold it near and dear to their hearts. Lets not forget ol' Georg invented that "jam waiting to happen" pistol as well.

Nice calibers, like the 45ACP, 38Super, 10mm Auto, 357magnum... all American inventions, invented in America, by Americans.

Gotta also remember that Browning started out as a bumkin of sorts. He ended up teaching him self French, and learning to actually speak English properly as well, but some somehow his name - Browning - is used like we use "kleenex". Any autoloader in Europe is a "browning" (note the lower case "b"). Thats what they call 'em.

It should be noted, the 25acp, 32acp and 380 (9mm Browning Short) were developed by Browning (upper "B" this time) WHILE HE WAS IN EUROPE working at FN and "commuting" back and forth occasionally to give his nod to Colt's who was also making a few things of his. So really, those cartridges are European, invented by an American. I think there's great insight in that, on Browning's part, not wanting to taint the USofA with the invention of such things.

And... of course, the 9x19 is a civilized round. Quite proper for military use. As also the 9mm Corto is perfectly suitable and civilized, should the police ever feel pressed into actually carrying weapons while on duty. The European police agencies have long known that guns are both evil, and a source of crime, and like habitually using marijuana, carrying a duty weapon leads to worse outcomes with near certainty..... Police in Europe are civilized, don't believe in counter violence, and act properly toward everyone, all the time.

Here in the good ol' USA we got our heads out of our butts, and are realists. Bad guys exist, cops carry guns, citizens carry guns --- because the bad guys carry guns, or even if they don't, why give them any advantage? We believe in "shooting to stop", no matter what it takes. Just dreadful and ghastly to the European mindset are we. Savages, brutes, Neanderthals... and Yankee's to the core (not northern yanks, just 'merican Yanks). The only way America could be worse, to a European, is if all Americans were Texans or Virginians. But before we lay damns on our European cousins, we must also remember, they can't help themselves. They've been spoon fed cradle to grave happy juice. The situation is now genetic in nature.... sad.

[wyntrout]

When I went to Germany (West) in 1983, I carried guns up to .44 Magnum with me. When I got there, I found that hollow point ammo was illegal AND guns, pistols in particular, were only for sporting purposes... having one for defense was verboten!

The first time I went to the local sporting club's range for the military, I was alone in this log cabin structure... really... the target end was a log wall and it was dank in there. Anyhow, I shot up my verboten ammo, but I still kept my S&W 639 (had two!) loaded with 9mm ball ammo... at home.

When out and about, I was keen on "blending in", not acting the "Ugly American", or at least not trying to stand out as an American tourist.

Those people over in Europe, except for the Swiss, are not permitted to walk around armed or even carry weapons in a car. I spent about 5 days in Italy and got there late at night, so I wound up just parking in the PARK and snoozing until the next day, when I could go to the USO down the street from the Vatican and find a decent room through them. I had done my research and found that this was legal, but carrying any kind of weapon was for the military on duty, cops, and, of course, the criminals. One could not even have a baseball bat in the car unless he was on the way to the proper baseball game!

I felt pretty naked there then and it was pretty "safe"... or relatively so. Now, I don't want to leave the U.S. where I can't be armed and we have a lot more active enemies now! Active meaning they want to kill any Americans they see!:eek:

The United Nations is full of countries who envy and hate us and our freedoms. Most would like to see us all as unarmed and vulnerable as they... and they would like us under that One-World Government... the one Obama fancies being its "Supreme Leader.

Too many people here think that having weapons is about duck hunting or just sports... proper ones like punching hole in targets... with .22's.

I really am glad that I've seen a lot of the world, because I don't want to travel out there unarmed anymore! Certainly not after experiencing our "permitted" freedom of self-defense.

My wife has long wanted me to consider moving to Arizona... too danged hot... "dry heat" or not, but they do have real constitutional carry there now, I think.
:80:
Wynn:):33: http://kahrtalk.com/smilie_USflagge13.gif

[paul34]

They also use 9mm NATO, which is a little hotter than 9mm +P here in the States.

There also isn't a robust market for law abiding citizens in most European countries like there is here in the US. There isn't as much market innovation for handgun rounds, since all said, most European police do not carry any sort of weaponry, and that leaves only the military. Handguns do not seem to be a huge priority for the majority of the military from any country.

There just isn't the incentive like there is here in the States. There is no focus on creating more effective cartridges and weapons to allow the law-abiding citizen to defend herself more effectively.

If we didn't have a second amendment, we'd probably have similar cartridges, too. Thinking about that some more, we'd all probably be speaking German and/or Japanese :rolleyes:

[CJB]

And the president would be named Schicklgruber!~

[wyntrout]

I don't know where you went in Europe, but a lot of cops were carrying MP5's or the equivalent when I was there in the mid-80's and it has gotten worse. Terrorists and anarchists were very active then and now there are Islamo-fascists and other terrorists everywhere... and their sympathizers, not to mention all of the international brands of the "Mafia".
With most of the Europeans embracing the One-World, no border crap there has been a great influx of immigrants and a large part of them are Muslim with large enclaves of poorly educated and jobless young people who are easily swayed to the aims of the extremists.
Most Americans have a hard time understanding that a lot of the world's population doesn't enjoy the freedoms and education that we have. If they go to school at all, it's a government indoctrination center or one operated by extremists who "teach" whatever they want to indoctrinate and train "jihadists" who have no concept of personal freedom and are ready to become martyrs for their "cause" and go straight to Paradise... certainly a better fate than the poverty and misery they were born into... they think... because they don't know any better.

Dang! Where was I going and what was the thread?? :rolleyes:

<Sigh> I'll stop rambling... gotta go move the hoses around... one of our two days for watering here.

Wynn:)

[TheTman]

I believe in Europe you're just supposed to hand over your valubles to any punk with a crowbar or whatever. I remember a few years ago hearing about a farmer that shot some punk breaking into his house and got sent to prison for murder. What a mess. And librards want that same thing here? What a bunch of morons. Just look how the violent crime rate went up in Australia after people were forced to turnover their guns. The guy that inspired the "Crocodile Dundee movies" was gunned down by police for refusing to turn in his rifles.

[ltxi]

Well, 9mm Luger and its close caliber relatives....380/.38/.357/9mm Makarov/etc....are the most common handgun rounds globally. Europe has also historically even liked the .32 as well for police work. The US seems to be unique in viewing the hotter "nines" as a floor and favoring larger calibers...40 and 45...for defense/offense. We caved to the NATO 9mm military standard for a reason. We were out of step with the rest of the world.
Personally, in defense semi-autos I prefer the .45ACP, usually carry a 9mm, and don't really much care for the 40. In revolvers, .38 or .357 depending on the size and weight of the gun. I also carry in .22 mag.

[CJB]

Fully immersed and indoctrinated in the ways of the English - my better half is from Great Britain. On to better things. She, amazingly, saw the errors of Her Majesties Government, and decided to come here to the States, by way of being a mate on a yacht. Arriving technically as an illegal (ahem) her industrious ways soon begat her more than ample self employment, wealth, and eventually citizenship. Yes, she's quite pro-gun anti Obama, considers herself a good Regan/Thatcher Torrie, and does her utmost to avail herself of all that the Colonies provide, including packing a .357 LCR.

That woman is damn dangerous, no sub-caliber pipsqueak cartridges for her! If she could rack the slide reliably, she'd be packing a PM45. I'm just glad she didn't pick out a 2-1/2" model 29!

[earle8888]

Does the MP5 have a LARGE CAPACITY mag?

[paul34]

Does the MP5 have a LARGE CAPACITY mag?

I prefer the term "standard capacity." Anything less is "reduced capacity." ;)

[TheTman]

Now the libtards are starting to call standard capacity magazines "Assualt Magazines". I got an email about that from one of my gun groups.

[wyntrout]

A selective fire .22 magnum "pistol" with high polymer content and a pop-down front grip and 30 or so round internal capacity with the new .22 mag defense rounds would be neat for personal defense... home or when accosted by a gang of 2 or more punks intent on doing you/yours harm. There are a couple of candidates already that would need a little modification.
I guess some guys would whine about it not being a "pocket" gun, though.

Wynn:D

[CJB]

I like the way you think!

[wyntrout]

A 3-round burst selection, too! That should be just about right... ~ 120 grains.

Wynn:)