New P380 Owner - Questions...

[AlanS]

Background:

I am 58 years old. I have owned firearms only the last 10 years. Prior to that, I'd shot arms a few times, but not frequently. I decided to own a 'gun' in order to protect myself. Then, I decided to own five (5). You know how that goes. (I'm about maxed out since my safe is small).

I keep a Remington 870 shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot at all times, for home defense. No kids or anything, and I keep it locked in the safe when I'm out.

Recently, a situation arose in which I elected to investigate a disturbance on my property, in the middle of the night. I live in a tract home, so didn't feel comfortable walking around outside with my shotgun. Neither did I want to go out with my AR or with my 5" barrel .357. None of these is exactly 'concealable'. Especially when you're walking around in the dark literally in nothing but your skivvies. My main concern was my neighbors, and them hearing the same thing I was hearing, reporting me as 'a man with a gun walking around in the dark in his underwear'--at the very least, I'd have the Sheriffs at my door, asking questions...

So...I went out to investigate who was trying to break down my gate (empty-handed), walk around the corner of the house, and there are two adult males standing in the dark by the gate. I asked them what they were doing. They both turned to me and one grunted something unintelligible. Just at that moment, two more adult males rolled in behind me from the dark. I elected to return to my house. I locked the door, called the Sheriff, then went out the back door (into my darkened back yard), shotgun at the ready.

Again, calling around the corner of the house toward the front yard, I queried the intruders and again got an unintelligible response (turns out the guy who was doing the talking was so drunk he couldn't...To me at the time it seemed like some type of brain-damaged-psycho-killer talk). I told them they were in the wrong place, whatever they were looking for--it wasn't here. They kept banging on the gate, grunting (loudly) at me. Frankly, at this point I started to feel scared (it seems funny, now. But it didn't seem so, then...) I took the shotgun and me and it went to go make our stand in the house while we waited on the Sheriff. (Small town, spread out over miles, and only two cars on-shift at night).

I resolved if they came through the back door, I'd go out the front (with the shotgun), if I could. If I couldn't make it out the front, there were 6 rounds in the 870's magazine. I was resolved to fire them all if I was trapped, or until I felt the danger to myself was alleviated.

After about ten minutes, I saw the Sheriff's car out front. I went out (sans shotgun of course--the presence of which I never mentioned) and told them I'd called and asked if they'd caught anyone. They said there were three (I saw 4) Marines from Camp Pendleton in the neighborhood, looking for a party.

I went back in. Didn't see the Marines anywhere once the Sheriffs rolled up. No further issues the rest of the night. In the morning, about 7 AM my doorbell rang. It was the kid I'd confronted the night before. He had twigs and grass in his hair and smelled like a brewery. He hadn't been able to get my gate open, but my neighbor's was a different story. He'd slept it off in her backyard. He'd lost his cell (and wallet and keys...etc.) wanted to use my phone to call his buddy to come get him...

Moral to the story: I decided I needed a small, concealable firearm I could 'palm' and take with me if there was ever again a need for me to investigate an issue outside my home after dark. This time had turned out ok. But I reasoned it could just as easily have gone badly for me, i.e., unarmed and confronted by four adults. Even though this is a small town (about 18K) there is gang activity associated with families that have moved to the area from the L.A. and Bakersfield metros. There is sometimes graffiti sprayed on the walls nearby. (This somewhat explains my mind-set in these matters).

I'm working on getting a CCW so I'm 'kosher' carrying a weapon around...

The reason for this post:

I bought a Kahr Arms P380 (my first pistol, BTW). It seemed to fit the bill for what I needed. Small, concealable, and with shot placement (as far as distance goes, I couldn't have missed any of these four guys had they been 'bad' guys), seems sufficient to at least give me a fighting chance to at least buy some time to run-go-get the shotgun...

The problem is, in nearly 500 rounds at the Range (the gun's first 500), I don't think I've fired more eight to ten (if that many) full magazines (6 rounds) without some type of gun failure intervening, i.e., the slide locks back with rounds left to go...a round doesn't feed and stops the slide...the striker makes a hit but the round doesn't fire...and a weird one--the magazine comes 'unlocked' and slips down out of position by about 1/4"--stopping the gun in its tracks. (I have already vividly imagined pulling this weapon on someone intent on doing me harm and having it mis-fire. Human nature being what it is, that seems like an invitation to a severe ***-whipping...or far, far worse).

If it's not one thing, it's another with my '380. (BTW, I'm shooting Winchester 'white box', Remington UMC, Mag-Tech, and even tried some Remington Golden Saber--all ammo behaves the same).

I have read and followed the Kahr prep article on this site. I have lubed the weapon per the instructions in the Tech section. I have cleaned the gun with non-chlorinated brake cleaner in the critical striker area (as instructed).

The 500 rounds have been fired over the last 2 days. Today, toward the end of the day, I decided I was hitting the magazine release button (don't ask me how) and that was why the magazine kept coming loose (it didn't come loose like this, yesterday). My hands are about shot from two days of steady break-in/practice, so I think I'm not gripping the gun tightly enough. On this tack, I tried changing my grip so I couldn't possibly hit the magazine release button. And that seemed to help this particular problem.

With that positive result, I focused on holding the gun tightly. Also, I found if I placed just the tip of my 'trigger' finger on the trigger, I seemed to have fewer feed issues and issues with the slide locking back prematurely.

Which brings me to my question. Obviously, if while you're firing it you're touching stuff on the gun you shouldn't be, e.g., mag release, slide lock, slide, etc., weird things are going to happen. But how important is it to hold the gun firmly? Does it matter to the gun? (Dumb question, but I'm serious).

Using will-power, I made myself hold the gun very tightly, using only my finger tip to 'squeeze' the trigger...and the last five or six magazines fed and fired with just 2 or 3 anomalies. Maybe after 500 rounds the gun's settling in? Or, maybe my 'grip' is better so the gun's behaving better? Or some combination of the two? Or, am I just fooling myself potentially, and the gun's just a 'lemon'? I honestly don't have enough experience with fire-arms to know what's what in this situation.

My quandary is obvious. Here I have a gun I'll only ever use in a life-and-death situation. And it's totally unreliable. I would not at this point take it into a situation I thought could become life-and-death. I'm better off with nothing than with this misfiring/misfeeding weapon. I'm only slightly worse-off to walk around outside in the dark in my underwear holding a shotgun, taking a chance the Sheriffs will shoot me down as an 'intruder'.

I need some advice. Is it time to turn the gun back over to Kahr and tell them it's unusable for its stated purpose? Should I hang in there, fire another 500 rounds and see what happens? I could use some good advice, and common sense from those with more experience.

Thanks,
Alan

[Bill K]

Welcome to Kahrtalk!

Sorry to hear about the issues with your new Kahr .380. A pocket .380 was probably not the best choice for you considering it is your first handgun. But that is now water under the bridge.

I would recommend having someone experienced with pocket .380s shoot your gun and if issues remain that he/she feel are not ammo related then I would for certain call Kahr and have them advise.

Bill K.

[Bawanna]

I think your going in the right direction and are basically right on all counts. The gun is breaking in and smoothing out some. A firm solid grip is very important with these little guns. And your certainly not the only one to hit buttons they shouldn't. One of the downfalls to such a small gun.
After all those rounds your without question fatigued and while your still breaking the gun in your not improving yourself or bonding with your gun.
I'd keep your ranges sessions much shorter. Do some dryfire practice at home just to work on your trigger control. Tip of the finger is usually not the best on this type of trigger but if it works for you best by all means stick with it.
I suspect if you sent your gun back to kahr they would find nothing wrong. You already have identified the issues and are doing the right thing to fix them.
Far as your noise in the yard scenario you handled it perfectly. Did just what you should do. Slightly weak perhaps in confronting the intruders unarmed but your retreated and made a good plan.
I would have enlightened the little miscreant the next morning had he come to my door. No harm but made sure what kind of bad things could happen to him had it been possibly anyone but your level minded self with a shotgun.
Don't give up on your 380.
Sorry you got into guns so late in life but you got lots of time left and your obviously hooked like many of the rest of us.
I'd get something bigger if you don't plan to carry all the time, if you do I'd still look hard at a CM9. Again if the 380 is right for you in your mind its perfect for you in my mind.

[BuckeyeBlast]

I really don't have any advice on the .380 as I've fought the same issues myself. I ended up sending it back to Kahr. But, listening to what you were describing I just kept thinking "Ruger LCR .357." Glad things worked out for you.

[jpl2]

I went through the same start-up problems you have experienced. My gun went back to Kahr twice and they worked on it and replaced one of the magazines. When I got it back the last time I elimenated the risk of not holding it tight enough by resting my arm on a bench and holding the gun tight. After no problems for a few mags I held it with a two hand hold and it continued to work reliably. Kahr is very good about checking it out and elimenating any problems with the gun if you are having startup problems. Now I feel any problems are my fault and not the gun.

Good luck

jplapp

[TucsonMTB]

Welcome to Kahrtalk!

Sorry to hear about the issues with your new Kahr .380. A pocket .380 was probably not the best choice for you considering it is your first handgun. But that is now water under the bridge.

I would recommend having someone experienced with pocket .380s shoot your gun and if issues remain that he/she feel are not ammo related then I would for certain call Kahr and have them advise.

Bill K.
+1 I think Mr. Bill K nailed it. At your age, I am certain you know there is no honor lost in seeking experienced help, especially with something important. Try to find an experienced shooter to shoot with you at the range. You will both have more fun. :)

In the meantime, if costs permit, get a revolver. Yeah, it's not as ultra-cool as a tiny semi-automatic in your pocket, but you will not need to worry about it working, regardless of your personal skills. That could be important in the middle of the night. ;)

In the meantime . . . Welcome to the forum! We are all hoping for a good result here and will applaud your efforts, especially once you are happy with the results.

[Mokumbear]

It's not just about your choice of gun, it's also about knowing the law.
Massad Ayoob often writes excellent articles on this topic.

You did three things that concerned me:

1) Left the safety of your house, unarmed, to investigate things in the dark.

2) Went back in the house and then exited the house with a shotgun.

3) Opened the door to one of them at 7am in the morning.

Florida is a "castle doctrine" law state.
All the same, if you leave the safety of your home and wind up shooting someone who is unarmed or fleeing, or messing with your fence, you will find yourself on the wrong side of the law. This is a very slippery slope.

BTW, the .380 is OK for carry when you simply can't carry anything larger.
I think in this situation I would feel far better with a compact 9mm in an IWB holster.

Be careful out there...

Just sayin'

[AlanS]

First of all, my sincere thanks to each of you who've commented and attempted to steer me straight... I appreciate you taking the time to do so...

I decided to contact Kahr, and based on my conversation with the Service person, I've elected to send the firearm back for inspection/correction. Certainly my stance/grip could be adding to my woes with the pistol. But if that is the sum total of the issue with it, I'll be very...surprised.

I misspoke, slightly. In fact I do have another pistol, a Ruger 22/45. It shoots very reliably in my hands. But then, it seems like a much different type of weapon (rimfire) and is certainly not as powerful as the P380 so doesn't have the issues of holding it firm. Also, it is a larger weapon, and easier to hold. (I also own a .357 revolver).

Reading over posts similar to mine, and according to a few of your replies to me in this one, it seems to me there's a high probability my issues with the P380 will be resolved--though that doesn't seem a certainty. I'm ok with those odds. Seems like about what you'd expect, i.e., there will always be a few folks that, for whatever reason, won't have their concerns alleviated. I hope I'm not one of them...but I admit the possibility. I'm certainly open to suggestions and according to the suggestion here, will 'bench fire' the weapon when I get it back, in order to verify it's not 'stance/grip', and in order to build some confidence in the weapon. (Primary reason I sent the weapon back: No confidence in it. If it's returned with a ruling of 'operator error', at least I'll have a starting point, and can begin working on 'me'.)

I have not taken a "shooter's" course (though plan to) but I have read case-studies online for hours, especially cases associated with my home state, California. I'm fully aware that any time you shoot a person here, outside your home, you're going to be in for it, regardless of the circumstances. That's a trade-off. Better to shoot someone else in your front yard? Or allow them to do you harm? I can't argue with you, Mokumbear, that this represents a 'slippery slope'. Heck, even shooting a bonafide intruder INSIDE your home could send you to prison in this state. But once again, am I better off to be injured by an intruder and avoid going to court (though I could wind up in heaven?)...or am I better off taking the steps needed to alleviate the threat? I don't think there's an easy answer, seems to me like a case of 'lesser of evils'. For me, the bottom line is I want to be able to defend myself against injury/death*.

I hope I never ever have to shoot anyone. But if I feel my life's in danger, I hope to have the wherewithal to eliminate that threat to myself. No easy answers, to any of this...

The purpose of the pint-sized gun is as I said, to provide me something no one else will be likely to notice in my hand (or on my person) in the dark. If I was to go walking around in the dark with a shotgun (or even a large handgun), it seems to me another armed person (or the police for that matter), seeing I'm armed, might well shoot first and I'd have precipitated the very thing I wish to avoid. So for me, yes, this small gun is the right choice--provided we can learn to work together.

*I read an interesting article the other day about The Media instilling in everyone a sense of the overriding insanity in the world today, and giving all of us a false sense there's a general disregard for life by many of our fellow man. I don't know about that. But it seems to me that there will always be a certain percentage of the population who are 'bad', i.e., who do not have the innate respect for the lives of others you and I have (actually, there's a study that says crime went down in the late 80's and beyond due to all the 'unwanted' uncared for teenage boys never seeing the light of day in the wake of abortion being legitimized in the early 70's (Roe Versus Wade...) As the population grows, the percentage of these 'bad' persons stays roughly the same...but the number of 'crazies' (for lack of a better term for them) increases. So, where there were 3 of these folks forty years ago...perhaps there's 30, in the same piece of real estate, now... It only takes one to do you in, I guess.

If you want to know the truth, I would rather have a guy steal my Harley (I know this is blasphemy) than to shoot him. I can replace the bike. Truthfully, it's insured and I'd probably wind up with an 'upgrade'. And I don't really want to hurt anyone. By the same token, I would rather kill the same guy dead in his tracks if he came to steal my bike, and in the act formed the intention to kill me.

I've taken enough of your time. Thanks once again for your thoughts, advice, and opinions. I'll chew on these things. I'll post again when the gun returns, and share the results.


Alan

[TucsonMTB]

Cool! We will be watching for your report.

In the meantime, don't be a stranger! :D

[AlanS]

Thanks, TucsonMTB. Alas. It's going to cost about $85 to return the firearm to the factory. I may only ship via UPS Next Day (Saver), according to law. Thus far, Kahr has not mentioned reimbursing me the cost. I am hopeful if they identify the problem as theirs, they'll reimburse my shipping. I'll update when all's said and done, and the firearm's been returned to me.

Alan

[TucsonMTB]

How old is this pistol? If you bought it new, tell Kahr that the crew on the KahrTalk.com forum think they should provide a prepaid shipping label. If you insist, politely of course, but firmly . . . they will usually give in without a real fight. Remind them that you are a geezer and accustomed to good service for premium products, which Karhrs certainly are.

Hang in there. Call early in the day and be cheerful but firm. ;)

They will email you a label to print out and attach to the package. You can then drop it in a FedEx box or any FedEx counter with zero wasted time.

Pack the pistol in the original plastic case and a close fitting outer box. Include the magazines that don't work but no other accessories.

[MikeyKahr]

What TucsonMTB said. Plus make sure to do the firm but nicely part up front. I would suggest that you don't wait and hope for reimbursement after the fact but get a pre-paid label sent to you ahead of time (if possible).

[AlanS]

The pistol is already en route. (Last report is it's in KY). I will speak with them about reimbursing me my out-of-pocket, before it's all said-and-done. Frankly, I'm very open on this matter. If they tell me it's my issue, that I'm holding the gun incorrectly, and/or using the wrong stance, they can they instruct me as to how to do these things properly, the misfeeds and other stuff will go away, and problem solved. In this case, it's my responsibility to pay the shipping. On the other hand, if there are issues with the weapon that require attention, it is their responsibility to pay the shipping. (I'll have to read the Warranty to see what's defined for shipping charges there).

The gun is new. Purchased from Bud's Gun Shop online and shipped to the FFL I use here in the area. I purchase it about a month ago, s/n RC1xxx.

Thank you TucsonMTB and MikeyKahr for the encouragement. Being a 'geezer' as you say, I've learned to be philosophical about things like this. Rather than say too much more about it, I'll let the Kahr gunsmiths and factory weigh-in with their assessment, and go from there...

Thanks again,
Alan

[AlanS]

It's been 5 weeks my P380's been at the Kahr factory (I sent it back on 6/18). I'm hoping it will arrive back here this week, per the experience of others in this regard, i.e., a 5-week turnaround for repair. I've been following the threads of others who've sent their 380s' back, and I'm hopeful mine will shoot like theirs, when it arrives back here.

Anyone from California sent their gun back to the Kahr factory? Was there any issue with Kahr sending it directly back to you after repair...or did you have to arrange the transfer through your FFL? Like I said, I shipped the gun (UPS) directly to them. Thanks for any enlightenment you can offer.

I'll call the factory about Wednesday of this week, if I haven't heard anything. So far, I've been content to leave them alone to do their work. But five weeks feels like long enough.

Alan

[jocko]

I certainly would have called them sooner 5 weeks is out of order for kahr..

[rogerthedodger]

Anyone from California sent their gun back to the Kahr factory? Was there any issue with Kahr sending it directly back to you after repair...or did you have to arrange the transfer through your FFL? Like I said, I shipped the gun (UPS) directly to them. Thanks for any enlightenment you can offer.

I'll call the factory about Wednesday of this week, if I haven't heard anything. So far, I've been content to leave them alone to do their work. But five weeks feels like long enough.

Alan
To answer your question: I shipped a Ruger LCP in for repair, they sent it to me direct, I am in Cal. Also, I currently have a P380 at Kahr, I checked with them Friday, they have had it for 2 weeks. You should call them, just to find out why they have not returned it.
Good luck on your repairs.
Roger

[jocko]

Could also be a vendor part shortage.

[Rightwing]

That was the issue with mine, it also took five weeks. I was much less patient than you are, but once it came back it was awesome, so I am confident in their ability to get it right.

[AlanS]

Thanks for the notes, all of you. I've followed along here, other P380 threads, and have used those owners' experiences as a gauge for my expectations. I'm glad it will be sent directly to me. (There's so much crap now in California concerning guns, you don't know what rigamarole awaits you next...but that's another thread.)

Alan

[downlow]

Hey Alan,
Hope your gun comes back the way you want it to! And thanks for not shooting any of our young cocky foolish marines. :p I had a similar incident years ago when I was "younger", out in S.Dakota with some foolish youngsters that had been drinking,so I know right where your coming from when you hear something that goes bump in the wee hours of the morning under strange circumstances!
Having a CCW is huge responability, but one I am surely grateful to have to protect my loved ones and self.
I have about 500 rnds through my P380 2-screw side plate and it now shoots flawlessly, and is the perfect pocket gun. I carry it 24-7. I have stubbornly planned on not shooting +p loads in it to help maintain spring life. I also find that a grip type a cop showed me years ago, totally helps me shoot the pocket guns more reliably. I'm right handed and use my left support hand thumb to press my horizonely (sp?) right thumb into the grip under the slide stop. This gives me a medium high primary hand grip. I notice I had alot less slide lock problems, limp wristing and an accuracy increase when doing so. Push hard with your support thumb to "lock your hold" and useyour finger tip to pull the trigger.:blah:
I also prefer whinchester white box 4 fodder and hornady for my carry.
Anyway, good luck...

[Jackalope33b]

What are you reffering too? 2 screw side plate? Is this something you replaced?


P380 2-screw side plate and it now shoots flawlessly,

[wyntrout]

You have to HAND the package to a REAL FedEx employee... the truck driver or a Real FedEx shipping office employee.

All of the returns I did... six total, had at-home pickup by FedEx... cost-free to me. One time I did something wrong online and didn't get the pickup scheduled, so I had to drive 18 miles to the airport to take it to their facility that was open to 8:30 PM.

Kahr will usually schedule pickup or you can online using their account number.

Firearms and ammo require more stringent handling... with actual UPS or FedEx employees, not UPS Stores and other commercial/franchise-type pickup and drop-off "stores".

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Kahr switched to a 2-screw sideplate for rigidity because sometimes the little half-moon part of the trigger mechanism could get outside the slide... not good.

Wynn:)

[TucsonMTB]

You have to HAND the package to a REAL FedEx employee... the truck driver or a Real FedEx shipping office employee.
. . .
Firearms and ammo require more stringent handling... with actual UPS or FedEx employees, not UPS Stores and other commercial/franchise-type pickup and drop-off "stores".

Wynn:)
Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I just slapped on the label that Kahr provided and dropped my package in a FedEx deposit box on the sidewalk outside the nearest Post Office (about 3 miles away). It was very convenient.

Kahr shipped the repaired PM40 directly to my house. Life is good. :D

[wyntrout]

Yeah, the at-home delivery is great... except for the time I got a new frame... my FFL dealer has 11am to 7pm hours and I had to really hound him for about 5 days to get him to go pick my PM45 at the P.O. I called, I emailed and after I showed up that time, for the second time, he left a friend and me at the store while he went to the P.O. It was busy, too, but I guess he figured he had made me wait enough! I certainly couldn't disagree, though I did feel a bit sorry he had to stand in line.
His USPS carrier is a "d!ck" and won't come back by after his scheduled opening hours. My carrier is more accommodating.

Wynn:)

[AlanS]

downlow, thanks for the grip advice. I'll try it. As for my call to Kahr, the person I spoke with noted the long time they've had the gun, and stated he thought there might be a parts shortage issue, the gunsmiths couldn't work without parts...long/short is, he offered to send me a 7-round mag when they return the gun. For my inconvenience. So, 5.5 weeks, and still waiting... I am starting to get the sense that with Kahr, like everyone else in this world, the 'squeaky wheel' will be more likely to get the grease. So I'll give them another week...and call back.

As for 'ignorance is bliss', I mentioned the hassle I went through to ship my gun back to Kahr, to a guy at work. He blinked at me and said: "I just stuffed mine in a box and sent it UPS Ground...you mean, there's some special process?" I told him I guessed not... ;-)

Alan

[AlanS]

My P380's still at Kahr, i.e., been there nearly 8 weeks. I called CS and spoke with Eoin two weeks ago. He noted the long time they've had the weapon, and said they'll provide me a free 7-round magazine when they return the gun. For my trouble. He explained they've had a number of P380's returned which share some of the same issues; they're awaiting parts. I didn't ask a lot of questions, figuring I'll get the story when the gun's returned. FYI for those of you waiting on a P380 repair.

Alan

[BuckeyeBlast]

My P380's still at Kahr, i.e., been there nearly 8 weeks. I called CS and spoke with Eoin two weeks ago. He noted the long time they've had the weapon, and said they'll provide me a free 7-round magazine when they return the gun. For my trouble. He explained they've had a number of P380's returned which share some of the same issues; they're awaiting parts. I didn't ask a lot of questions, figuring I'll get the story when the gun's returned. FYI for those of you waiting on a P380 repair.

Alan


Wow, I'd be curious to know what the holdup is. My return time was 2 weeks, and that was just a couple months ago. FWIW - they ended up having to replace mine, but the new one continues to be flawless. :target:

[AlanS]

I have no idea what the hold-up is. Essentially, I've been told the issue has been identified. And my gun's being repaired. I was told I'd be contacted by a technician when the gun is being returned. I was told the third thing 3 weeks ago. The other two items are new statements, issued today (8/24/11) in an e-mail reply to an e-mail I sent to Kahr yesterday.

The e-mail I received from them today has a little bit of "the checks' in the mail" feel to it. I hope that's just coincidence, or my imagination. It seems to me, since they've identified the problem, and my gun's being serviced now, they could reasonably provide a firm date repairs would be completed and the gun on its way back.

I have asked to have the $85 I spent to return the gun reimbursed to me. I wasn't provided the option for them to pay for return shipping. In my estimation, Kahr should pay all charges attendant to this matter, i.e., the cost of repairs, and the cost of shipping the weapon (both ways).

I await Kahr's reply.

Alan

[jocko]

$85 are u kiddin me. where do u live Hawaii??? Don'thold ur breath on ever seeinfg that 85 bucks either.

[whitemule]

Alan, IMHO you have the patience of a Saint! I can commiserate with you somewhat, I paid $60+ to ship an LCP .380 back to Ruger for a problem that was clearly their defect but they did not reimburse me. Maybe Kahr will be better about that, but I woudn't hold my breath. I own two of the micro .380s, a Ruger LCP and a Taurus TCP. Both of them have had issues, but the Taurus has been back to the factory twice now. First time was for numerous failures to feed with all sorts of ammo and accuracy problems. When returned after about 2 weeks and the FTF issues were fixed but they completely ignore the accuracy issue (it was shooting 5" low at 10 yards). The second time the barrel lug broke off and they replaced the barrel and some other parts. Turnaround time from Taurus was only 7 days, but do you think I am eager to trust my life and that of my family to that gun now? I am actually thinking of trading both the Taurus and the Ruger in for a Kahr P380. I guess my point is, al lot of these micro .380s have their issues. Please hang in there with Kahr and I'm confident you'll eventually be happy. Kahrs are quality firearms and worth the extra effort to get them dialed in. 73 OM!

[Scoundrel]

Alan -

Given all the trouble you've had (and I feel that it is a LOT of trouble), I would like to possibly help you avoid a little more trouble.

I suggest that you search on this forum (and on Google in general) for these words:

Kahr
7-round
magazine
feed
jam

...and then the next time you speak with Kahr, ask them to send you a 6-round magazine for your P380 instead of the 7-round one.

I don't know if the P380 has the same problems with the 7-round magazine as the CM9 does, but if I were you I would not want to take that chance.

From my perspective, you bought a pocket gun for size and subsequent ease of concealment in life or death situations. You don't need a long magazine sticking out the bottom of it, and you certainly don't need the possible differences in aim that may result from practicing with a 7-round magazine (which one of your fingers will rest on), and then using the 6-round magazine without the extra finger space when you're in a critical situation.

Just something to consider.

I hope this experience does not sour you on Kahr handguns. I bought my first Kahr (CM9) a couple of months ago. The ONLY problem I have had with it was identified as a bad 7-round magazine, which Kahr promptly swapped me a 6-round magazine for, when I told them I did not trust it with my life.

By the way, the CM9 is not much bigger than the P380, but the bullet has a lot more energy, and practice ammo is much cheaper. Just another thing to consider.

[Jackalope33b]

How and why are some of you guys spending $60-$85 for shipping of a firearm to the factory? Are you guys insuring it for $10000.00??? I have NEVER heard of anyone paying this much, especially when these small guns weigh no more than 3lbs TOTAL weight with factory box, and packaging.. I just mailed a NightForce scope that weighed a little over 4lbs from Fl to AZ, insured for $2000. through FED ex. Total price = $26.00
What am I missing here?

[Scoundrel]

The manufacturers specify that the gun must be shipped with overnight shipping. That's expensive no matter how much it weighs. I don't know why the manufacturers would care about shipping speed, but they seem to.

I just did a Google search and found someone saying it's UPS that insists on it.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=why+do+guns+have+to+be+shipped+overnight

There is much speculation out there as to WHY this is, but the bottom line is that they want us to do this, and therefore higher costs.

[JFootin]

The manufacturers specify that the gun must be shipped with overnight shipping. That's expensive no matter how much it weighs. I don't know why the manufacturers would care about shipping speed, but they seem to.

I just did a Google search and found someone saying it's UPS that insists on it.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=why+do+guns+have+to+be+shipped+overnight

There is much speculation out there as to WHY this is, but the bottom line is that they want us to do this, and therefore higher costs.

It is purely anti-gun sentiment mixed with greed. The Post Office will not allow us individual citizens to ship guns, though FFL dealers can use them. So UPS, FedEx, etc., have decided to stick it to us with the insistence on overnight shipping. There is no Federal regulation regarding this, but the sticker is that there IS a Federal requirement that we tell the shipper it is a gun. So they have us over a barrel.

[wyntrout]

My last purchase was my Springfield Champion from a guy on Gunbroker. I bought the gun for $575 and paid an extra $25 for him to ship it. My FFL dealer's hours are 11AM-7PM and his USPS carrier refuses to deliver during his posted business hours, so it took me at least three days to get my dealer to go pick the gun up at the Post Office... he kept forgetting and finally left a friend of his and me at the store while he went to get the pistol... took him a while, too.
We were astounded that the guy had sent it overnight and paid $62.50 or more!!

Kahr paid about $28 with their corporate rate when I was using their dime, including pickup at home, and it would have cost me over $60!:eek:

Wynn:)

[Scoundrel]

It is purely anti-gun sentiment mixed with greed. The Post Office will not allow us individual citizens to ship guns, though FFL dealers can use them. So UPS, FedEx, etc., have decided to stick it to us with the insistence on overnight shipping. There is no Federal regulation regarding this, but the sticker is that there IS a Federal requirement that we tell the shipper it is a gun. So they have us over a barrel.

Rumor has it that it's not JUST greed; The carriers are rumored to have problems with employees that have sticky fingers. You've all heard the stories about airline baggage handlers, and I imagine that package carriers employ the same class of people. The idea with overnight shipping is that "By forcing it to go overnight, it has a much more stringent tracking system, has less time to be stolen, and is touched by fewer people."

...but if it is just the carriers, then why does Kahr support this? A conspiracy? My Kahr came with a card titled "Shipping Firearms For Service", on which it states:

"HANDGUNS MUST BE SHIPPED PREPAID VIA UPS AIR OR FEDEX OVERNIGHT. HANDGUNS SHIPPED GROUND SERVICE MAY BE ASSESSED AN ADDITIONAL CHARGE OF $40.00 AND REPAIR WORK WILL BE DELAYED. Persons who do not hold a Federal Firearms License are prohibited by federal law from shipping a handgun by mail. Handguns mailed in violation of the law are impounded by the Post Office."

This text, and more, can also be found here:
http://kahrauction.com/service.html

Another perspective I saw when searching: Just go in, declare that you are shipping a firearm, but don't specifically ask for overnight shipping. They might not write it up that way. The premise of this one is "Don't expect the front-line employees to know all of the rules of the company they work for." - A cynical perspective, to be sure. But inside every cynic is a disappointed optimist.

Then comes the counter-argument: "If you don't ship it overnight, and it goes missing, the carrier might not honor the insurance when they find out it was not sent in accordance with their rules." This is, of course, something that is likely to get people all fired up, but we can only yak about it, unless one of us has a twitter following of 50,000 people or can get national media interested enough to write up an article, and by some chance, it becomes an internet sensation. The rest of the time, the carriers will quietly stonewall the average Joe.


...and THAT, folks, is why the average Joe will knuckle under and pay the extra $50 to ship handguns the way we are being told to. Because there are too many what-ifs involved, and we're scared that we'll lose our expensive guns if we don't toe the line.

Is it right/fair/nice/happy-making? Maybe not.
Is it the status quo that isn't going to change without massive effort? Yes.
Are there people who have bucked this system and saved a few bucks? Yes.

Will YOU take the risk?

[JFootin]

Some good points, Scoundrel.

The only question I have is: if is it OK for FFL holders to send using the Post Office, insured and relatively inexpensively, why can't we?

[Ctktmrider]

Get yourself a pocket carry revolver. A 357 magnum. This way you can shoot 38sp. At the range as well. I think you may be getter off. It will go bang everytime you pull that trigger.

[Scoundrel]

Some good points, Scoundrel.

The only question I have is: if is it OK for FFL holders to send using the Post Office, insured and relatively inexpensively, why can't we?

I don't have the answer, of course. But if I was going to play "Devil's Advocate" and try to come up with a reason that sounded plausible, I would say: "Because FFL holders can be trusted to package the firearms safely, and the general public cannot."

[JFootin]

Yeah. You're probably right. Another example of the government assuming we're all dumb as stumps and need to be protected from ourselves. Of course, there would always be some pea brain that would ship a loaded gun or something, like the one's who show up at gun shows with loaded guns and have ADs. But so what? How often is anything bad going to happen? And do we really need—does the government really have the right or duty—to put rules, and regulations, and laws and restrictions on us ad infinitum to prevent the idiots from EVER having a boo-boo? Taking away freedoms from all the rest of us in the process?

[rogerthedodger]

Alan, IMHO you have the patience of a Saint! I can commiserate with you somewhat, I paid $60+ to ship an LCP .380 back to Ruger for a problem that was clearly their defect but they did not reimburse me. Maybe Kahr will be better about that, but I woudn't hold my breath. I own two of the micro .380s, a Ruger LCP and a Taurus TCP. Both of them have had issues, but the Taurus has been back to the factory twice now. First time was for numerous failures to feed with all sorts of ammo and accuracy problems. When returned after about 2 weeks and the FTF issues were fixed but they completely ignore the accuracy issue (it was shooting 5" low at 10 yards). The second time the barrel lug broke off and they replaced the barrel and some other parts. Turnaround time from Taurus was only 7 days, but do you think I am eager to trust my life and that of my family to that gun now? I am actually thinking of trading both the Taurus and the Ruger in for a Kahr P380. I guess my point is, al lot of these micro .380s have their issues. Please hang in there with Kahr and I'm confident you'll eventually be happy. Kahrs are quality firearms and worth the extra effort to get them dialed in. 73 OM!
I don't understand why you folks are paying for shipping when the problem is theirs?? I have had to return an LCP to Ruger, and a a P380 to Kahr, both on their dime!! Be firm with them when it's their fault!!:mad:
Roger

[Scoundrel]

And do we really need—does the government really have the right or duty—to put rules, and regulations, and laws and restrictions on us ad infinitum to prevent the idiots from EVER having a boo-boo? Taking away freedoms from all the rest of us in the process?

I feel the same way. But this is a discussion for another forum/time. We're drifting pretty far here.


Alan, has this been resolved to your satisfaction yet?

[AlanS]

Scoundrel...thanks for asking.

The problem has not been resolved. It's been at Kahr 10 weeks now. I filed a BBB complaint against Kahr with the Northeast BBB today. Not only has the gun not been repaired, but I can't get a straight answer as to when it will be repaired.

The problem I have now is that Kahr personnel have chosen to stop responding to my e-mails, i.e., stonewalling. I have not been disrespectful, nor abusive to anyone. I've simply asked for the reason the repair has taken so long. I'm not going to bother to call again, because I get the same song-and-dance each time (I've called twice), i.e., "We're working on it, you'll get a call shortly with tracking information..." The first of these reports was given to me about 5 weeks ago. It's obvious now the statements were made to placate me, get me off the line, and are not truthful.

I'm hoping the BBB has some leverage in the matter. I certainly have none, as a gun buyer.

Once the gun issue's settled, I'm going to work on reimbursement for the shipping I paid.

If anyone has contact information for someone at Kahr outside the circle of Service reps that answer the phones and e-mails, it would be appreciated...

Alan

[Scoundrel]

Ooh, I'd be hopping mad.

Where did you buy the gun? I'd ask the dealer to see if there was anything they could do. Maybe the dealer has a friend at the distributor who could throw a little weight around on your behalf.

At this point I would be asking for a brand new replacement, or a refund.

[AlanS]

My three options to the BBB were: Prompt repair; new weapon; refund. Purchased online via Bud's Gun Shop.

I am mystified by the situation. I see others here who've had problems, returned their P380's, and had their repaired weapons returned to them in the space of time mine's been at Kahr.

The obvious explanation is that there's a manufacturing issue with my weapon Kahr can't solve, or with parts they can't obtain. But why are they returning other weapons to folks, then. I can't figure it out.

Has anyone heard of anyone else having their gun at Kahr for 10+ weeks for warranty service?

Alan

[AlanS]

Per Scoundrel's suggestion, I contacted Bud's Gun Shop (Lexington, Ky) from whom I purchased my P380 online, and asked them to intercede with Kahr Arms, on my behalf. They did so, and shortly thereafter I received a call from Kahr stating my firearm was ready to be shipped to an FFL to be turned back over to me. I presume the relative timing was no coincidence...

Needless to say, I continue to have several unresolved concerns in this matter. I have contacted the Kahr Sales department in an attempt to obtain POC information for a member of Kahr's management staff with whom I can discuss my concerns. (There are no management POC details on Kahr's web-site.)

I believe I'll resolve this matter amicably with Kahr. But I am confident I won't be able to do so if I limit my interactions to the customer service troops, i.e., they take their orders from somebody, and it's that 'somebody' I probably need to reach.

I will start another thread for those with an interest in these events, once I have more information to report.

Thanks to every one of you who've provided useful information to help me...

Without question, Bud's Gun Shop stood by me in this and won my loyalty. It was really only a matter of a few days between the time I contacted Bud's, and their representative contacted Kahr for me.

alan

[Scoundrel]

Without question, Bud's Gun Shop stood by me in this and won my loyalty. It was really only a matter of a few days between the time I contacted Bud's, and their representative contacted Kahr for me.
alan

That's good to hear, and I am glad that your Kahr is on its way back to you. I hope its issues are resolved, even if the customer service and monetary issues don't get resolved (but I hope they do too).

I've seen a couple of guns on the Bud's website that I wanted, but thus far I have not come across a situation where it was less hassle or less money to buy from them vs. having my local shop order one for me. It's good to see a positive result from a post-sales interaction with them. That will help me make a decision to buy from them one day, when other factors line up in their favor.

[Mecenas]

If they are shipping a gun to your FFL it means to me that they replaced the frame, otherwise they should have shipped it back directly to you. If they replaced the frame, it will now have a different serial number. That is why it will have to be shipped to FFL.
You are really very patient and I admire that. Please keep us posted on the progress. Most importantly, have the problems been repaired and have they reimbursed your shipping costs?
Thanks for sharing

[Mecenas]

AlanS:
About a week ago you wrote that Kahr was ready to ship your pistol to your FFL . Have they?????
What happened????

[Scoundrel]

There is some new information on this topic here:
http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=96867&postcount=1

[geniedoc93]

Hello all. Just joined this forum because of my P380 issues and boy did I learn a lot! I have already been in contact with Jay @ Kahr and have printed my (pre-paid) FedEx return label. I purchased my P380 in May'11, broke it in with 200+ rounds of Win white box FMJ with only 1 FTF, the very first round did not go into battery. A quick slam to the rear of the slide locked 'er up and the rest of them fired w/o a flaw (except for just about every empty casing being tossed straight back at me). Then, I started to try-out my favorite JHP ammo (Win PDX-1) and had all kinds of problems. I did experience the slide locking back with rounds in the mag, but quickly realized that my thumb was the culprit and adjusted my grip. I tried four different brands of commercial JHP ammo having FTF's with all of them. The most common FTF with my P380 was the cartridge would enter the chamber and stop at a 45 deg. angle. I had to drop the mag. and rack the slide to free the stuck cartridge. Other times the cartridge would feed into the chamber, but not into battery, and sometimes I would get light primer strikes because of this. I read about the frame problems after heating up and I think that may be my problem. I'm really hesitant to send my P380 back to Kahr after hearing all the long turn-around stories, but it seems I don't really have a choice. So, off she goes! Wish me luck!

[rogerthedodger]

Just a FYI. I sent my California version P380 to Kahr on 7-12-11, and just received it back. I was having lite strikes. Here is what they replaced:Frame, slide stop, extractor, and striker block. I will post results in 10-14 days at this site.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7684

Roger

[Scoundrel]

Here is what they replaced:Frame, slide stop, extractor, and striker block.

That's pretty much the whole gun, isn't it?

[rogerthedodger]

Same Slide, barrel, ejector, trigger group?, etc.
Roger

[Scoundrel]

Same Slide, barrel, ejector, trigger group?, etc.
Roger

Details, details. :)