My PM9 rig...

[MrToad]

Here's my latest acquisition, iffy photo, done quickly (wife's out fetching groceries and the kids are running amuck in the living room :rolleyes:)

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/breley/Kahr/pm9_rigs.jpg

Can't decide which I like better...the Mini-tuck (comfy and slim) or the Mitch Rosen (pretty comfy and easy to slip on a belt). Choices, choices!

I need to play around a bit more with this new Panasonic FZ-class camera. It's more complicated to figure out than my Linux box.:eek:

[Girphoto]

Here's my latest acquisition, iffy photo, done quickly (wife's out fetching groceries and the kids are running amuck in the living room :rolleyes:)

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/breley/Kahr/pm9_rigs.jpg

Can't decide which I like better...the Mini-tuck (comfy and slim) or the Mitch Rosen (pretty comfy and easy to slip on a belt). Choices, choices!

I need to play around a bit more with this new Panasonic FZ-class camera. It's more complicated to figure out than my Linux box.:eek:

I am using the Rosen "CLIPPER" and it is very comfortable. I also have a Sam Andrews IWB McDaniels also very comfortable.....

Photos to follow, but in the hot and humid climate of Florida, I find that the smaller the holster, the easier it is on Skin.

[Willieboy]

I think you did well MrToad. The Mini-Tuck appeals to me but like Girphoto, I'm kind of a minimalist when it comes to holsters. I don't want more holster than is necessary to secure the gun.

[ricklee4570]

Does the laser affect your grip on the gun any? I really like how my hand fits the PM9 but I have concerns a bout adding the laser if it is going to be uncomfortable. I would hate to invest that much money to end up putting it in the drawer!

[jocko]

hell of alot of people put those CT lasers on kahrs, I see alot on the Ruger lcp. They work great. I have not readof anyone stating they are uncomfortable. They really look like part of the gun, they are just that good of form fitting..

[Jitterbug]

I just installed a second laser on our second PM9, the wife and I both carry them.

Very nice and for us it doesn't effect the grip a bit, I just added a Pierce extension and for other then pocket carry, I like it to. I ordered spare 6 rounder, to leave stock for when I pocket carry the PM9 which is often.

The only hitch with the CT is to make certain you purchase a holster dedicated for it.

We have 4 lasers on 7 carry guns, the only issue with the laser I have is the cost, especially for the two 1911's I want to equip with it.

Laser + new holster=$$$

And I'll want one on carry #8 too, which will be a 4" S&W 629.

I sound like a CT salesman.

Nice holsters Toad!

I just started using a Mitch Rosen 5JR for carrying the PM9 on my hip, for when the 1911's, start getting too heavy and bulky.

[Girphoto]

Ok, So this is my Rig for the Kahr PM9 Black Diamond.

L-R- Mitch Rosen Clipper, Sam Andrews Leather McDaniels, PM9 6 rd mag with steel foot replaced with Kahr 9mm Plastic foot (needs a little fitting with 600 grit sand paper and 3 minutes of work), Kahr PM9 Black Diamond with stock sights (sights changing to XS BIG DOT (shortly)


http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae326/girphoto/th_PM9RIG.jpg (http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae326/girphoto/?action=view&current=PM9RIG.jpg)

[MrToad]

Does the laser affect your grip on the gun any? I really like how my hand fits the PM9 but I have concerns a bout adding the laser if it is going to be uncomfortable. I would hate to invest that much money to end up putting it in the drawer!Personally, the laser on the foregrip makes it more comfortable for me to hold since the CT flattens out the cheese grater grip. The CT encases the trigger guard and enlarges it a small fraction, but more on the sides of the guard than below it, if that makes sense. A couple of tiny hex screws secure both sides of the CT to the trigger guard, so there's really no chance of it becoming dislodged if properly secured.

As Jitterbug said, it's crucial you get a holster that supports the CT extension below the dustcover.

[Girphoto]

Let me start off by saying that i am all for the "toys".
I go by the creed "that he with the most toys wins"!
With that said, i can see XS sights on the PM9, but why a CT?
If it is for the "toy value", than I am all in but with a gun designed as a CQG (close quarter gun) where you are shooting usually no more than 20 or so feet, by the time you get the CT on your target, it is all over.
I compete in Steel Competition and when you are dealing with seconds from the draw to the hit, I really do not think that the CT (especially if you have to turn it on first) is going to help.
I purchased my PM9 and a IWB or Pocket gun that I can draw quickly and fire equally as fast almost as a point and shoot gun.
You draw, point and fire off your rounds, reload maybe, but unlike T.V. where you get a chance to hide and sight in, it is usually all over in 3-4 seconds.

So, As I said, I am not putting down the CT, I just think that is does not work on a small hand gun (and yes, I had the Sig version of the CT on my p238 that i always carried in the pocket and when ever i took it out, I found that the battery was dead from rubbing up against the holster).

Just my $0.02 worth.

By the way the custom gun above (FRANK DURAN PM9 thread) I think looks great and I might consider it, but in the short time that I one the PM9, and have it with me 24/7 we have grown very close together:photo:

[Jitterbug]

I'm not a competitor, but after 50 years of shooting and hunting I originally thought of the Laser as a Gimmick and didn't have any use for it. However I've been a longtime fan of night sites on a CCW gun.

A couple of years ago I purchased a S&W 442 for the wife, something inherently safe and simple to operate, the problem was the sights, so I installed a Laser on it.

One big advantage of the Laser is that one does not have to line up the sites for an accurate shot, granted a trained pistolaro can point shoot at short range and sometimes do well, but as one get's older, slower and not as quick I'll take all the help I can get.

Another big plus of the laser is shooting from the hip or other unconventional positions.

Another is, it's all about shot placement and especially so with pocket pistols, here again the Laser is a huge asset, it makes hitting what your aiming at considerably easier then with irons.

I still have the night sights and I've made sure the wife has the "front site" mantra down pat, she does well with the irons, being that batteries die and stuff breaks.

Personally, I now view the Laser as a real helpful asset, in the event it's ever needed and not a gimmick or toy.

[Girphoto]

I will agree that Ct on a S&W 442 with the Laser in the grip is a lot easier to shoot and get on and on target than a small Auto. With a 442 while you are pulling your gun out of your pocket, IWB, OWB opr pocket book you hand is on the grip turning on the laser. with a small Auto you have to go to the front to turn it on.
I do not think that the Ct is a Toy or Gimmick (I refer to "toys" as Big Boys and Girls with their "TOYS" not little plastic or metal tinges). Anyway, I do believe that there is a place for CT laser, but IMHO, I find it an extra expense and weight on a PM9, where you are trying to reduce Size and Weight.

If I wanted to carry "Large", in the hot humid summer in S.E. Florida, I would carry my Glock 26 or 19 or one of my 1911 Commanders.

IMHO, carrying the right gun for the right time of year in the right rig is what it is all about (and being able to shoot and hit what you aim at is most important) IMHO:)

[wayneo1]

I would choose the leather mitch rosen, leather just feels good on. But I would use either one to tell you the truth.

[MrToad]

To be sure I did not go out looking for a PM9 with a CT, but rather came across the whole package for sale that, as a whole, was a pretty good deal, so I jumped on it.

Good points all around, and I tend to agree with Girphoto that in a critical life-or-death situation where the C/PM9 is designed to be used in all likelihood between the adrenaline rush and potential surprise in a critical encounter I'd be drawing and shooting pretty quickly. Such a fight-or-flight response would tend to minimize the effectiveness of the CT, HOWEVER, it may serve as an additional effective deterrent were one to be threatened by an approaching individual or group presenting a clear dangerous threat. A couple of thugs moving up on a good guy might have second thoughts if they see a red light coming from a pistol and hovering on their chest. Hypothetical, to be sure, but since the CT doesn't detract from the PM9 for me IMHO, I have no qualms about stacking the odds, however slight, in my favor.;)

[Jitterbug]

I did an aftermarket install on both PM9's, the CT is light as a feather and with the correct holster the added "bulk" doesn't matter a whit to me and I've been shooting PM9's without CT since 2004...I don't notice any weight or bulk.

The cost of replacing holsters matters, (I hate having the full holster drawer) but not much one can do about that, if one wants the laser. Ebay is helpful, good holsters generally get a good resale.

On the PM9 model, there is no switch to activate, it activates on the grip only. The other two we have on the 442 and a M&P9c, do have switches, but they're left on all the time, almost two years now and I've never had a battery go out and have only replaced them one time...there have been periods in there were the CT was off to utilize practice with irons.

I'm not familiar with the Sig model, or the Sig other then handling one recently and thinking it appears to be a very nice little pistol and especially so since I'm a big fan of 1911's.

At the end of the day it all boils down to personal preference and over time views often change, mine have and with new information continually does so.

Mr. Toad, your point of the possible ability to discourage an attack with the red dot is a very good one, not be counted on 100%, or to promote brandishing in any way, but it very well could possibly prevent a self defense shooting.

I view the laser along the lines of simply presenting a weapon as a deterrent, many a bad guy was stopped from doing whatever it was that caused the weapon to be presented in the first place by it's simple presence without a shot being fired, I've read something like 90% of the time, IIRC.

Sources such as John Lott come to mind but I can't quote the exact source off the top of my head, especially on only one cup of coffee.

But that's also been my own personal experience a time or two.

I consider it a much preferable outcome if the bad guy simply ran away or stops the aggression, verses having to fire a shot.

[ricklee4570]

Im not sure I buy the laser being a deterrent. I could be wrong, but....If pulling a freaking gun on somebody doesnt deter them, activating the laser just doesnt seem like it would make much difference.

And, unless the bad guy is looking down at his chest, he doesnt see the little red dot that is projected there.

[wayneo1]

Good point ricklee, never thought of that one.

[DriveMyKahr]

Initially, I was very skeptical of the value of a CT LaserGuard on my PM9. I had tried CT LaserGrips on a Glock 23 and on a .45 cal Kimber 1911 and was not sold on the value of laser sights. However, the recent $50 rebate offer from CT pushed me over the edge. After two hundred+ rounds at the 50 foot range with a CT LaserGuard on my PM9, I can honestly say that it has improved my accuracy.

I have a key-card membership in a 24x7x365 indoor climate controlled 12 lane 50-foot range. Yes, that’s right… indoor range firing in January cold and August heat. One of the rules of the range is that the paper target carrier must be engaged at the 50-foot backstop. Shooting with the target at a distance closer than 50-feet is grounds for key-card revocation.


Typically, I line up my shots with the iron sights and then squeeze activate the LaserGuard to verify the laser dot is positioned behind the front sight. Dry firing with the laser spotted on the 50-foot target demonstrates where and just how much I am “pulling” the shot. Live fire with the LaserGuard shows me where the round hit if I miss the 8” target completely.

After just a few visits to the range my shots are now mostly on the 8” target where before my shots were mostly off. Now most of my 5-round groups are within 5-8 inches or tighter. Considering my waning eyesight, hand stability and the 3-inch barrel in the PM9, 5-inch or better groups at 50-feet is respectable.


At home I run through a daily Point and Shoot exercise one or more times:
· Remove the magazine
· Remove and clear the round in the chamber
· Practice rapid holster draw and dry-fire point and shoot at random targets at varying distances.


The object is to accurately acquire the intended target without the use of sights. The red laser dot is there to verify your aim and hand-eye coordination. Most shots are in the 5 to 7 yard critical defense distances.

It is amazing how quickly you will naturally point the red dot and the gun barrel where you think you are aiming.

Crimson Trace LaserGuard: Worth every penny.

---------------

[MrToad]

Im not sure I buy the laser being a deterrent. I could be wrong, but....If pulling a freaking gun on somebody doesnt deter them, activating the laser just doesnt seem like it would make much difference.

And, unless the bad guy is looking down at his chest, he doesnt see the little red dot that is projected there.
Ricklee, my latter comment on the matter was hypothetical/conditional in its description as an additional deterrent. Certainly much of that possibility is entirely dependent on the circumstances and proximity. I was thinking of something along the lines of a dark night or poorly-lit area where the drawn pistol might not be easily seen. As for not seeing the dot, that's quite possible, but note that while the BG might not see the dot on him, he will see the laser illuminated if he's looking towards the CT. Note that I'm not advocating reckless brandishing just to scare the potential BG off...I mean if I'm in fear for my life (guy's got a drawn knife, baseball bat, etc.) and the BG's intentions are clearly obvious. Of course there's the whole Tueller bit, so...:D

DriveMyKahr, your description was kind of what I feel the actual benefits of the CT would be for me. As Jitterbug's last comment stated, I'd rather not have to shoot if I had a choice.

[Girphoto]

This discussion of CT is all good and well in the practice stage. Go to the range set up a target (at any distance) draw (if the range permits) and fire. There is no threat back to you and you are calm and have no adrenaline pumping.

You are now in a different situation (a shoot house if you can arrange it) there are bad guys in there that are going to shoot back at you (rubber, paint, etc..) but they are gunning for you. I am telling you that in this type of an environment you might or might not see the red dot from the CT. You are reacting to a stimulus of returning fire to the bad guy and not shooting one of the good guy's.

Mind you, I am not KNOCKING the CT, I just (IMHO ) do not think it is needed on a great (that is right I am updating nice to great) little gun as the PM9. I also did not know that the laser was grip activated on the PM9 since it is forward of the trigger housing and there are non removable grips on the PM9.

Anyway, a very interesting NON-BASHING either way discussion of CT.

[VietVet68]

And I'll want one on carry #8 too, which will be a 4" S&W 629.



Seriously? I hope you're a big guy 'cause that rig will be big and heavy.
Good Luck