.45 ammo.+P or standard

[Dietrich]

I`ve always been of the mind that a 230 grain,standard pressure,.45cal.jhp was a darn good self defense round all by itself.Now I am seeing .45+P and have heard rumors of a +P+ but I`ve never seen any.Do these rounds actually vastly improve on the .45 round or are they mostly a marketing tool for more expensive ammunition?If I were a betting man,I`d wager they lean more toward gimmickry than actual improvement but then again,I`ve lost bets before.A lot of you are more informed on this stuff than I am so what`s the deal?

[ricklee4570]

The 45acp is not quite the mythological manstopper some claim it to be. Is it good? Sure, it is. Personally I think that a few extra fps is a good thing if you can handle the extra recoil. Especially with some of the newer bullets that the major manufacturers are designing.

[OldLincoln]

It raises the fps by about 10%. If using hollow point that could mean better expansion. I use 147gn HST +P in my PM9 because it is a heavier bullet. The HST expands very well but I believe more is better when it comes to SD.

[Bawanna]

For my 2 cents: in my own small mind the 45 just as it is works for me. Never had much use for hot rodding something that dont need it.
I want what it was originally designed for, launch a big heavy slug, slow that will knock you down while I find a safer place to be.

It worked well for the military before they lost their minds and went with the 9.

One of my first acts as your president will be complete reissue of 45s to all military personel who carry handguns. It would be a very large improvement over in the sandbox.

Speaking to a few guys returning from Irag, they told me they didn't bother to carry the M9's. Had no faith in them.

[Dietrich]

For my 2 cents: in my own small mind the 45 just as it is works for me. Never had much use for hot rodding something that dont need it.
I want what it was originally designed for, launch a big heavy slug, slow that will knock you down while I find a safer place to be.

It worked well for the military before they lost their minds and went with the 9.

One of my first acts as your president will be complete reissue of 45s to all military personel who carry handguns. It would be a very large improvement over in the sandbox.

Speaking to a few guys returning from Irag, they told me they didn't bother to carry the M9's. Had no faith in them.
No need to be using the kid gloves Bawanna.Tell us what you really think.

[Bawanna]

Sorry I been taking these PC correctness classes and I got to tell you I'm really struggling. They try to tell me how to say stuff without pissing nobody off and we all know I don't need no help with that.

[deadhead1971]

45 fmj worked well in WW1 & 2.

[TheTman]

I've been comparing .45 loads, and the +P does improve FPS and FPE. Several knowledgable people have told me that the 185gr bullet does bettter from the shorter barrel guns like the Officers model and the CW45. One of the loads I'm looking at is the 185gr +P Golden Sabre, delivering 1134 FPS and 534 FPE at the muzzle, vs 1015 FPS and 423 FPE in the standard 185 gr load. Thats quite an increase. Your frame is going to get beat up more with these hotter loads. I have a "Shok-Buff" (little o ring) on the guide rod of my Govt. sized 1911 distrubute some of the energy of the slide hitting the frame with hotter loads. One could probably do the same with the P/CW45. I imagine a standard O ring would work well enough. If I could find some locally, I'd probably go with the Federal Hydra Shok in 230 grain standard pressure, since supposedly they require less velocity for the petals to open up. The Hyrdra Shoks are scarce as hens teeth around here. I'd even go with the Federal Hi-Shok in 185 gr if they could be found. I hate to order SD ammo that I haven't tried for reliability in my pistol. Cheaperthandirt.com has the Golden Sabre 185gr +P for 16.79 for a box of 25 right now. A box of 25 cost me over $30 at a LGS, but at least I have some to test now. If those 25 function well, then I may order a few boxes from CDT.

[wyntrout]

I stick with the 230-grain that the 1911 was designed for, and standard pressure, though defense loads seems a bit stouter than some range ammo.

I was using the Bonded LE version of Remington's 230-gr Golden Sabers, but they have been hard to find, so I switched to Speer Gold Dot 230-gr Golden Sabers and the Short Barrel version for my PM45, though they are only available in the more costly 20-round boxes vs. the 50-round LE boxes of Gold Dots. Again, the 230-gr "standard" Gold Dots have plenty of oomph and are plentiful.

Well, back to my DISH replacement DVR and getting it installed.

JMHO

Wynn:)

[CJB]

If it was good enough for John Moses Browning, its good enough for me.

Factoid - of all the handguns Browning created, the 1905 was his personal favorite - shooting the 200g "45ACP" cartridge, that he also created. If you ever get to hold one, you might understand why.
http://www.spencerhoglund.com/sitebuilder/images/1905_Colt-405x270.jpg

While not the sturdy warhorse that the 1911a1 turned out to be, the 1905 clearly shows the family traits. I held one once. Its a more svelte feel, slightly slimmer, different grip angle. I didn't get to shoot it, but it felt really nice in the hand. Curt Gentry mentions in his biography of JMB, done conjunction with Val Browning (son, not grandson), that JMB used to get away from things to clear his head, and would take a walk up into the hills with "the forty-five" and just shoot it some to relax. Yeah, I can understand that feeling!

[wyntrout]

I always loved the big centerfire pistols... beats the heck out of .22s! When you hit a can, that sucker doesn't sit there and make you wonder! You had to hit a rim to move a can with a .22.

The first .45 I fired was at least 50 years ago ~ age 15... a Colt 1917 revolver. Most memorable was the half-moon clips... don't remember how it shot!

I don't remember shooting any pistols of my favorite uncle way back when I was even younger, but I remember shooting the M1 Garand and the Springfield '03, among others. Easters were fun and at our family gatherings we shot a lot of Easter eggs... out in the country... near Star, MS.
I shot my stepfather's M1 carbine... without permission... in town... across the road from an elementary school! It went clean through about a 10" chinaberry tree!! :eek:

Wynn:)

[O'Dell]

Standard pressure HP's are fine for me. I don't think a BG is gonna have much fight left with two or three in him.

[Longitude Zero]

Regardless of what bullet type you use the 45 ALWAYS makes a bigger hole than the 9mm. That being said a standard pressure 45 in a Kahr weapon is just about as good as it gets anywhere.

Bigger hole means more damage and quicker bleedout. You CANNOT argue with bigger is better.

[MW surveyor]

How bout a 200 grain LSW? I like those holes that they make in a target. How do they perform in a body?

[DKD]

To answer your question the LSW do a reasonably good job even at target load 750 fps loading. The 45 acp even with low end target loads stop much better than the paper fpe suggests. They also leave nice big clean holes in the bad guys.
I persoanlly haven't shot anyone that I know of anyway but have spoken to both WWI Vets, Korean war Vets, Veitnam Vets and Desert Storm Vets who have with bot 1911's and Thompsons. Almost all without question said they all pretty much go down with one good hit to the torso. Even marginal hits put them out of the fight, by breaking major bones in the leg, mangling arms etc.
Even Hatcher's tests and the Lagrand tests on animal carcas's rated it very high on the incapasitation index and that was all with just 230 FMJ round. Our new high tech ammo does considerably more damage.
The way I see it per my own testing over the years is "One 45 ACP Center of mass will knock the dirt bags D--K in the dirt".

I have a personal friend who in an attempt to aid his neigbor who was being robbed one evenning and came to his assistance...only mistake was that he didn't take the time to bring his 1911 and instaed brought his mouse gun 32 ACP Keltec and there was three perps...he saw two and engaged them, but the third came out from the shadows to his right side and he was hit sideways throgh the gut with a 45 ACP ball and yep down he went. Four operations later and missing half of his intestines and two years recovering after that. He says he was very lucky to be alive.
The old adage applies here...don't bring a knife to a gun fight!

[MW surveyor]

DKD - Thanks for the information. Right now my 1911 is pretty much a range toy as it has only about 372 rounds through it. But, no failures of any type so far. If I've got to help someone out around my area, I'm taking my CZ Phantom loaded up with 19 rounds of 147 gr HST plus another 18 round mag. That's if I have time to go get it. If not it will be either the CW9 or my SP101 with 357 SJLSWs.

Sorry to hear about your friend. At least he made it.

[O'Dell]

!

I don't remember shooting any pistols of my favorite uncle way back when I was even younger, but I remember shooting the M1 Garand and the Springfield '03, among others. Easters were fun and at our family gatherings we shot a lot of Easter eggs... out in the country... near Star, MS.
I shot my stepfather's M1 carbine... without permission... in town... across the road from an elementary school! It went clean through about a 10" chinaberry tree!! :eek:

Wynn:)[/QUOTE]


My most vivid memory of Plebe Summer at the Academy in 1960 was two days at the Marine range across the river. The first day was qualification day with the M1 and the 45. I got my first two ribbons that day with expert in both. The second day was just for fun. We shot the M14, M15, BAR, Thompson, 30 cal air cooled, and the M1 carbine. We shot the M1 carbine on the 100 yard range rather than the 200, and I loved that little rifle. It kicked like a BB gun, and I could put the whole mag in the bull at 100 yards. The 'Gunny' said they were real popular with the Marines in the jungles of the South Pacific during WWII, especially the full auto. I guess it didn't take a lot of fps or bullet weight to take down the smaller Japanese soldiers.

[OldLincoln]

All this talk about a .45 ball creating havoc and devastation..... true it can kill and often does, but we recently linked a LEO's interview video where he took on a BG and was shot several times with 45 ball ammo and THEN shot the guy who fell down an embankment next to him and the LEO was able to get a round into the skull.

It was a touching interview and if you saw it I know you remember. So how can you repeatedly report how ball ammo is so lethal. I cannot imagine carrying ball ammo as a SD round, period! I want the baddest expanding bullet I can get to attempt to cause enough injury to stop the BG with as few hits as possible. Isn't this what everybody wants?

[Bawanna]

I would never carry ball ammo in anything except maybe 380. But I'd rather have a 45 ball than a HP little bullet.

I don't care about killing anybody for sure but I want to knock em down so I can run. That's what made the 45 famous.

That poor officer took alot of hits and thank goodness he survived but he was definitely not going no place. Only guts and will power carried the day. Along with good doctors and para medics.

[CJB]

Isn't this what everybody wants?

Actually, I rather fancy a nice smooth bourbon... Maker's Mark would do!

~~~

For every example, there is an equal an opposite example.

A shot to the little finger with a .45 will spin a man around and knock him backward off his feet.

He took six rounds of .45's to the torso and was still able to hit the BG with an axe and then call for help.

The 45 round smashed his arm beyond saving it.

After being shot... the BG walked away, with the 45 slug embedded in his sternum.

Etc etc... no matter what the cartridge or caliber.

~~~

True things:

Well placed shots, stop the BG better than poorly placed shots.

No shot can be counted on to stop anyone.

BG's vary in resilience

Marginally placed shots need all the help they can muster - and larger holes count at that point.

~~~

I dont feel under gunned with a Hi-Power, or with my 38sp SP101.

I feel better armed with a 45 over a 9 or 38sp, so I carry a .45.

I feel best with what I'm best familiar with. I've shot an awful lot of .45's, more so than 9's or 10's or 38 Super, so that suits me. I've handled 1911's so long that its not even 2nd nature, but more like an extension of myself. So I prefer the 1911, and have since a time well before they had the popularity they exhibit today. In the late 70's they were just a 45 Govt model or Gold Cup. We sold far more revolvers than automatics. Times have certainly change I only carry the Kahr for its weight and size, so I stuck with a 45 cal model.

~~~

Shoot and carry what you're familiar with, what you feel comfortable with, what comes as second nature.

Its said, paraphrased, "Beware the man who shoots one gun, he probably shoots it well". Something for all of us in that parable.

[TucsonMTB]

This is a great thread. No matter how comfortable one is with his own convictions, it is always comforting to hear others express similar feelings.

You guys are alright in my book! :)

[wyntrout]

The military is prohibited from using anything but FMJ, so the bigger the bullet, the better. Those 9mm can just slip right through where the .45 does a little more damage. Remember that the .45 was developed and adopted by the US Army to replace the ineffectual .38 acp when facing the fierce and often hopped-up Moros, or so I hear.

Wynn:)

[ltxi]

For my 2 cents: in my own small mind the 45 just as it is works for me. Never had much use for hot rodding something that dont need it.
I want what it was originally designed for, launch a big heavy slug, slow that will knock you down while I find a safer place to be.

It worked well for the military before they lost their minds and went with the 9.

One of my first acts as your president will be complete reissue of 45s to all military personel who carry handguns. It would be a very large improvement over in the sandbox.

Speaking to a few guys returning from Irag, they told me they didn't bother to carry the M9's. Had no faith in them.

X2,X3,X4.....couldn't express my sentiments better. Every day that/when I'm carrying a 9 or anything else I really wish it could be my 1911.

[earle8888]

The piece, caliber, style, etc. is a choice, training/practicing shouldn't be!

[CJB]

+1 !!!!

[Barth]

When I carried a 45 (P220) about 10 years ago Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grain
standard pressure was sort of the "Gold Standard" for 45s. Even slightly better than Cor-Bons 185 grain +P. Hard to believe even today it's a bad round (especially if you can get the modern LE version). Seems like Federal HST,Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger T-Series and Speer Gold Dot Duty ammo are all well spoken of.

My general feeling with 45 is 230 grain standard pressure.
P+ will add recoil and I'm not at all sure it has much of a real advantage.

Technical Note:
One issue is barrel length.
It seems like 45s suffer more from short barrels than 9s, 357 sigs or 40 S&W.
If it's a three inch barrel backup gun you may want to consider Speer short barrel - http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/golddotshortbarrel.aspx

[ltxi]

If I were buying new defense ammo today I'd buy Gold Dot or HST. I have, in fact, moved on to HST in .40 cal and to Gold Dot in .357 and high pressure .38 spl. But in 9mm handguns, both SA and revolver, and .45 ACP I'm still carrying "standard" weight and pressure HydraShok and have no problem with that.
And, praise be to the Federal Arms god that saw fit to bring this round back last year, my lightweight (and wife's M60) J-frames continue to be stoked with 125 gr Federal Nyclad.

[Bawanna]

If I were buying new defense ammo today I'd buy Gold Dot or HST. I have, in fact, moved on to HST in .40 cal and to Gold Dot in .357 and high pressure .38 spl. But in 9mm handguns, both SA and revolver, and .45 ACP I'm still carrying "standard" weight and pressure HydraShok and have no problem with that.
And, praise be to the Federal Arms god that saw fit to bring this round back last year, my lightweight (and wife's M60) J-frames continue to be stoked with 125 gr Federal Nyclad.


Cool! I loved the nyclads. Haven't carried my 38's for years. Now maybe I can bring them out of retirement.

[ltxi]

Cool! I loved the nyclads. Haven't carried my 38's for years. Now maybe I can bring them out of retirement.

In my not the least bit humble opinion, the 125 gr Nyclad was and still is the overall best standard pressure .38 Special round ever invented....x2 for short barrel J-frames and especially for 442s and their ilk.

When it got killed off, irrationally, in the "teflon coated, cop killer, bullet" frenzy back in the 90's I figured what I'd stockpiled would just have to last.

To whomever had the guts to bring this round back into production, I am eternally grateful!

[Bawanna]

I haven't really looked in quite awhile but it was darn difficult to find much of anything standard pressure 38 for a long long time. Everything was +P or +P+.
I don't want to put that stuff thru my Colt Cobra. The nyclad was great. I used to have a whole bunch of it a case at least.
Me and a couple other guys at the dept bought another case for shared use at work. It just dissappeared one day. Never did figure out where it all went.
I was not happy.

[Barth]

I haven't really looked in quite awhile but it was darn difficult to find much of anything standard pressure 38 for a long long time. Everything was +P or +P+.
I don't want to put that stuff thru my Colt Cobra. The nyclad was great. I used to have a whole bunch of it a case at least.
Me and a couple other guys at the dept bought another case for shared use at work. It just dissappeared one day. Never did figure out where it all went.
I was not happy.

Looks like Federal currently makes Nyclad and Hydra-shok 38 Special
in regular pressure flavor -
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx
PD38HS3H
110 / 7.13
Hydra-Shok® JHP
Premium® Personal Defense®

P38MA
38 Special
125 / 8.1
Nyclad HP
Premium® Personal Defense®
----------------------------------------
I used to carry
P38HS1
38 Special +P
129 / 8.36
Hydra-Shok® JHP
Premium® Personal Defense®

But switched to Speer 38 +P 135 Short Barrel.

My S&W 342 is P+ rated and with a sub 2" barrel I want the very best.
Plus the Speer Short Barrel list of options is very short - LOL.
(I use the GDSB 40 /180 in my 3" MK40)

[ricklee4570]

I always hear internet stories about how great the 45 is as a stopper.

Then when I actually check into actual shootings where the facts are available it seems that the 45 is no more magical then the 9mm or 357 etc.

Two weeks ago a man was shot here 3 times in the abdomen and chest. He drove himself to the hospital, 30 minute drive. He wasn't incapacitated.

I watched an episode of true crime stories last night. An ex husband shot the wife at point blank range in the chest, throat and one in the head (bullet traveled around the skull and exited the ear, never penetrating the skull). She ran two blocks to a neighbors house for help.

Point is that shot placement is key. Also, never trust that one two or even three shots from a handgun is a certain stopper.

[Barth]

I always hear internet stories about how great the 45 is as a stopper.

Then when I actually check into actual shootings where the facts are available it seems that the 45 is no more magical then the 9mm or 357 etc.

Two weeks ago a man was shot here 3 times in the abdomen and chest. He drove himself to the hospital, 30 minute drive. He wasn't incapacitated.

I watched an episode of true crime stories last night. An ex husband shot the wife at point blank range in the chest, throat and one in the head (bullet traveled around the skull and exited the ear, never penetrating the skull). She ran two blocks to a neighbors house for help.

Point is that shot placement is key. Also, never trust that one two or even three shots from a handgun is a certain stopper.

Interesting points.
I was always instructed that -
1) Handguns are relatively underpowered weapons
(It’s just hard to conceal a shotgun or rifle).
2) Most people shot, live.
3) When you fire, continue until the bad guy goes down or
you run out of ammo.

As for 45 superiority; years ago (10+) a lot of
“one shot stop” statistics put the 45 and 357 magnum
at the head of the pack. Things change. Modern ammunition
is vastly improved today. Center mass hits with law enforcement calibers/ammo all perform in a similar manner.

That’s my way of thinking.
For what it’s worth.

[paul34]

I don't think +P really adds that much to 45 when compared to the additional recoil you have to deal with.

If you really want a big bang in your 45 ACP handgun, check out 45 Super. However, I wouldn't call that a feasible SD round. It works well for handgun hunting purposes, however.

[Barth]

I don't think +P really adds that much to 45 when compared to the additional recoil you have to deal with.

If you really want a big bang in your 45 ACP handgun, check out 45 Super. However, I wouldn't call that a feasible SD round. It works well for handgun hunting purposes, however.

I really agree.
One saying I'm fond of is in self defense shooting -
"the world is your backstop". I use to go "Dirty Harry" and carried
a 629 44 Mag in a fanny pack. Till I really thought about the the liability of touching off that hand cannon in a public place. I think we look for the "sweet spot" with self defense ammo. Where you deliver maximum energy on target without over penetration.

[Texas]

Nice thread. I've been reading up on all the different loads since getting my first gun (CW45) a month ago. I've been reading up on all sorts of loads and such. Just wanted to add something to the mix.

I found this site that has a couple of videos of different bullets fired into ballistics gel: http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1950.htm

Towards the bottom they have the videos for the Remington Gold Sabers in two forms, the first 185gr +P, and the second 230gr regular load. At looking at both videos it looks like the 185gr +P load seems to have more of an impact on the gel. What I also like is that they were shot from Glock 36's which have a shorter barrel like the cw45 (glock 3.8 vs 3.64 for the kahr). Don't know if it says anything or what the recoil difference is but its interesting. They also test the Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok which still seems to me like it has less force than the 185gr +P, again, its all subjective. Still, pretty interesting stuff.

[paul34]

Hydra-Shok is a pretty old design. I would avoid it if there are other options available. HSTs and Gold Dots are two excellent rounds in 230gr. The 200gr Gold Dot has apparently had issues with failing to expand. I would avoid those.

[OldLincoln]

The new Hydra-Shok is the HST Hydra-Shok-Tactical (I think). It's for Law Enforcement and hard to find but is available most of the time from Kyles Gunshop. It is legal to have and carry and many agencies use it.

[Barth]

The new Hydra-Shok is the HST Hydra-Shok-Tactical (I think). It's for Law Enforcement and hard to find but is available most of the time from Kyles Gunshop. It is legal to have and carry and many agencies use it.

Two different rounds my friend -

Tactical® Hydra-Shok®
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhydra-shok.aspx

Tactical® HST®
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx

(I personally have 800 rounds of Tactical® Bonded® for my 3.6" barrel P239/357)

[deadhead1971]

I prefer the .45 acp ++P+++. ;)

My Kimber Ultra Raptor feeds ball ammo ok. It feeds Speer Gold Dots ok. It fed 20 rds of Winchester PDX1 ok. But it does not like Remington UMC JHP (value pack)- 8 ftf in 100 rds. And it does not like Federal HST - 5 malfunctions in 50 rds. I have video to prove it.

Ball fmj .45 is an effective defensive round. It was used in WW1 & WW2. I have also read that ball ammo is more effective stopping large animals like bears due to more penetration.

[ricklee4570]

I prefer the .45 acp ++P+++. ;)

My Kimber Ultra Raptor feeds ball ammo ok. It feeds Speer Gold Dots ok. It fed 20 rds of Winchester PDX1 ok. But it does not like Remington UMC JHP (value pack)- 8 ftf in 100 rds. And it does not like Federal HST - 5 malfunctions in 50 rds. I have video to prove it.

Ball fmj .45 is an effective defensive round. It was used in WW1 & WW2. I have also read that ball ammo is more effective stopping large animals like bears due to more penetration.

Ball fmj sucks as a defensive round. Not sure why you think it is good just because it was used in WW1 and WW2. Is the fmj 9mm good because it is used in Iraq and Afghanistan?

A modern hollowpoint is the only way to go.

Google "Don Mettinger" and see what you find. I believe if memory serves me he took 6 rounds of 45 acp to the chest and was still combative.