PM9 and Laser option

[ricklee4570]

Im trying to decide whether I want to mount the Crimson Trace Laser to my PM9. I have read about some of the fitting problems and that doesnt bother me (seems cosmetic anyway--not affecting function)

For those that have them:

What are the pro's and con's?

Will the PM9 still fit in my Uncle Mikes pocket holster?

Does it affect the ability to get a good grip on the gun since the activation is located on the front of the grip?

Is the additional weight a factor?

Thanks!

[DriveMyKahr]

Im trying to decide whether I want to mount the Crimson Trace Laser to my PM9. I have read about some of the fitting problems and that doesnt bother me (seems cosmetic anyway--not affecting function)

For those that have them:

What are the pro's and con's?

Will the PM9 still fit in my Uncle Mikes pocket holster?

Does it affect the ability to get a good grip on the gun since the activation is located on the front of the grip?

Is the additional weight a factor?

Thanks!


Initially, I was very skeptical of the value of a CT LaserGuard on my PM9. I had tried CT LaserGrips on a Glock 23 and on a .45 cal Kimber 1911 and was not sold on the value of laser sights. However, the recent $50 rebate offer from CT pushed me over the edge. After two hundred+ rounds at the 50 foot range with a CT LaserGuard on my PM9, I can honestly say that it has improved my accuracy.

I have a key-card membership in a 24x7x365 indoor climate controlled 12 lane 50-foot range. Yes, that’s right… climate controlled indoor range in January cold and August heat. One of the rules of the range is that the paper target carrier must be engaged at the 50-foot backstop. Shooting with the target at a distance closer than 50-feet is grounds for key-card revocation.


Typically, I line up my shots with the iron sights and then squeeze activate the LaserGuard to verify the laser dot is positioned behind the front sight. Dry firing with the laser spotted on the 50-foot target demonstrates where and just how much I am “pulling” the shot. Live fire with the LaserGuard shows me where the round hit if I miss the 8” target completely.

After just a few visits to the range my shots are now mostly on the 8” target where before my shots were mostly off. Now most of my 5-round groups are within 5-8 inches or tighter. Considering my waning eyesight, hand stability and the 3-inch barrel in the PM9, 5-inch or better groups at 50-feet is respectable.


At home I run through a daily Point and Shoot exercise one or more times:
· Remove the magazine
· Remove and clear the round in the chamber
· Practice rapid holster draw and dry-fire point and shoot at random targets at varying distances.


The object is to accurately acquire the intended target without the use of sights. The red laser dot is there to verify your aim and hand-eye coordination. Most shots are in the 5 to 7 yard critical defense distances.

It is amazing how quickly you will naturally point the red dot and the gun barrel where you think you are aiming.


To address your specific questions:
It fits in the same Blackhawk #4 pocket holster that I used before purchasing the Crimson Trace laser.

No, Activation button placement is not uncomfortable. Having the activation button on the inside front of the grip makes perfect sense. Following the method described above, I have found that when I use a relaxed grip while lining up the front sight and then squeezing/tightening your grip to activate the laser becomes a very natural and comfortable process.

Weight? it adds about 1 ounce to total weight. Neglidgible.

Crimson Trace LaserGuard: Worth every penny.

[ricklee4570]

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

I wish I would have acted sooner, it looks like I missed the $50.00 rebate!

[garyb]

+1 on everything that DriveMyKahr stated. Good tool and well worth the money. You will barely notice that it is there until you start seeing the improved accuracy through dry fire practice. Helps at the range. You'll get so you'll see it secondary to your iron sights. Wonderful inside a building or in low light situations. Will make you faster. All good. In my opinion, many of the problems I've read about seem to be due to not tightening the laser guard down enough which causes torque slipping....and agrips eliminate that problem and add additional benefits. They will have more sales. Good luck.

[Jitterbug]

We have a total of 4 of them, 2 recently purchased for the 2-PM9's the wife and I CCW.

I did have to purchase a new DeSantis Nemesis for mine, since I mainly pocket carry the PM9.

I also purchased a CT dedicated OWB Mitch Rosen holster from the Kahr store I'm beginning to like even though I usually carry a 1911 as a belt gun...more and more I belt carry the Kahr.

Fit, zero and function is fine, weight is a non-issue it's so light.

Personally I'm sold on the Laser, unless they break or become problematic over use and time, but so far so good, we've had one now on a S&W 442 for about two years without issue.

Rather then try to articulate all the "tactical advantages" I'd suggest you view the well done online video Crimson has on their website...it's somewhat of an eyeopener regarding the advantages the laser has over sighting methods.

If and when I get the cash they'll be on all our carry guns, including woods guns, such as a 4" 629.

One other thing, neither of my PM9's a 2004 Model or a recent aquistion, were zeroed well from the factory, both shoot 147's about 3 inches low at 7 yards, (or it may be the 9mm's of various weights are all over the place) the older model shot a couple inches to the left as well and drifting that rear site was a PIA. The laser makes quick work with zeroing, otherwise not as easily done with the iron night sites.

[Bill K]

OK, let me be the naysayer. I'm a firm believer in the benefits of a laser for practice and training - I have a laser on one of my P3ATs just for that purpose. However, I'm am not convinced about its benefits for carry. A big concern of mine would be looking for that little red dot, in a situation taking place in good lighting, when I should be shooting. In a close up encounter you will not need a laser. Point and shoot! Don't waste a fraction of a second getting that first shot off. Just my opinion.

Bill K.

[ricklee4570]

OK, let me be the naysayer. I'm a firm believer in the benefits of a laser for practice and training - I have a laser on one of my P3ATs just for that purpose. However, I'm am not convinced about its benefits for carry. A big concern of mine would be looking for that little red dot, in a situation taking place in good lighting, when I should be shooting. In a close up encounter you will not need a laser. Point and shoot! Don't waste a fraction of a second getting that first shot off. Just my opinion.

Bill K.

Interesting view.

I wonder how many self defense situations where a laser was used actually exist.

I read where an off duty cop pulled his concealed gun during an attempted robbery of a convenience store. Afterwards, he stated that with the adrenaline running and everything happening so fast, he never saw the red dot, even though he administered two well placed shots to the offenders chest.

[TheTman]

I think the laser has benefits. Watch the films on the Crimson Trace sight that shows some scenarios where a laser would be of use. I think the greatest benefit is to allow you to take a shot before you've have the sights lined up. Might save a second which could mean a lot in a gun fight. It is battery powered, and batteries probably fail at the worst possible time, so don't get too hooked on it.
I like to use mine as a test in point shooting, where I point the pistol at a predetermined target without using the sights then hit the laser to see where the shot would have gone. I'd probably equip all my carry guns with a laser if money were not object. I agree with Bill K that in an up close encounter you probably won't need sights or a laser, but at medium distances and further, I see the potential of it.
It seems many encounters take place in low light situations, where that red dot will be easy to see.

[jocko]

just remember, KAHR does not zero in any gun . they shoot for a test group and that is all. It is tests 5" high but excellent group, then the gun is boxed and ready to go. Kahr can't sight in a gun for me. They do a great job of getting close as they certainly have done it enough but they shoot for a tight group over BULLSEYE stuff.

Up to the shooter to do the rest. Thgey test shoot with 124 grain, so I would imagine 147 grain to maybe shoot a tad different..:popcorn:

[garyb]

BillK,
No harm in neysaying. I totally agree with you. There are situations a laser does NOT work and you need to instinctively handle that situation. You are absolutely correct. No one wants to put all our eggs in the laser basket. I agree. No argument about your neysay from me. Cool.

In addition, the laser offers the shooter flexibility and diversity. I can be good with the laser, good with my sights, good with night sights, good with point and shoot, etc. I can be good with a punch, kick, elbow, knee. The best MMA fighters do NOT rely on one style nor one technique. As a martial artist, I know the advantages of various WAYS required to handle various situations. We need to be good with them all. There is no reason to limit oneself entirely on the laser, nor sights, nor point and shoot, etc... No reason to limit oneself to two handed shooting vs one handed shooting. No reason to limit the kind of stance we use or the type of technique we use with a flashlight, etc.... Same applies to the laser, which is merely another tool in the toolbox, ready to go if it is needed.

And Yep, I know what everyone says regarding the statistics of a certain % of gun self defense incidents occurring at X' distance, in under Y seconds, and under Z lighting conditions...so those are the situations to best prepared for. I AGREE. But what about the situations that arise in the home, or at night, 21' or less, when a laser is at its' very best?


Rather then try to articulate all the "tactical advantages" I'd suggest you view the well done online video Crimson has on their website...it's somewhat of an eyeopener regarding the advantages the laser has over sighting methods.

This is a GREAT suggestion from Jitterbug. If you see this free DVD from Crimson, you might reconsider using a laser. It may never be needed, but it is inexpensive and easy to add to the tool box; and in my experience has been very reliable if installed correctly. Just my opinion.

[Jitterbug]

garyb: Well put, I couldn't express it any better.

Bill, good point too.

The wife and I are planning a shoot for the weekend and we're going to be working on shooting from the hip...point shooting, on the move, as well as weak hand. Obviously the laser will excel in these areas. I think your dead on regarding flexibility and versatility...it isn't a range gun.

I have done some range work in extremely brite, Colorado noon day sunshine, with no problem picking up the dot at 7 yards.

I'm an experienced shooter but I like the fact I can disregard aligning sights for quicker target acquisition...focused on the target, verses sights, especially while moving. Not to mention better equipping the wife who only has 3 years shooting experience.

Of course fundamental marksmenship using irons is still primary, personally I don't see a downside to the transition to laser or no laser due to malfunction.

Thanks Jocko, that make sense regarding the factory POI. And I may transition over to 124/125's as a CCW load in the future.

[ricklee4570]

After careful consideration and feedback from everyone who responded on here, I decided to purchase the C.T. laser from my local gun shop yesterday.

It has a build date tag on it dated July 2009. I guess it must have been on the dealers shelf for a while!

I installed it last night and it was a perfect fit, no gaps or misalignments. Nice bright dot!

It will probably take some time to get used too, as it is not as comfortable to grip the gun with the switch mounted on the front of the grip, but it is not bad.

[deadhead1971]

I did a video yesterday evening shooting the PM9 with the LG 437. I got the LG 437 around Feb 2010. I have a sucky camera so I can't zoom in very much.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeadhead71?feature=mhee