View Full Version : Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
OldLincoln
07-14-2011, 12:51 PM
No... please not another caliber thread! .... Well maybe just a friendly fireside chat. I had some time today and stumbled across "Another" caliber study, this one of actual shooting and very well done. What makes this one different in my eyes is that is is real world numbers as compared to assumptions and eliminated incidents that don't fit a presumed picture.
Please take time to read the text as that's what sold me. I have to add I don't know the guy who did it or have hard evidence, it's just compelling to me.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866)
earle8888
07-14-2011, 01:58 PM
Thanks. Interesting
Bill K
07-14-2011, 02:01 PM
Very interesting read. Thanks.
O'Dell
07-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Gee, that's makes that KT 32 I gave Vickie a couple of months ago look pretty good. However, I am primarily a 45 shooter, and don't try to change my mind with logic.
Bawanna
07-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Just to add another log to the fire for the fire side chat. These comparisons are extremely difficult and probably impossible to get a definitive and quantifiable result. Just too many variables to take into consideration that you may not know.
Mindset of the victim. Is he calm and unsuspecting, or been running and mad.
Drugs or alcohol in his system. Batle Nut in the Phillipines.
Physical stature. Angle of entry. Blind hog luck at missing vitals.
The officer we read about here recently that was shot numerous times with a 45 was mad, he was running on adrenaline and he wanted to stop the bad guy. The average bystander to that same incident most likely would have been dead at the scene. He had the survival mindset and was not going to give up to some bad guy.
The old one shot stop dream is just that a dream. It happens but unless your hit with a direct shot from a mortar or maybe a 50 cal to the brain theres' no gaurantee.
I really don't have no desire to kill anyone but if I shoot somebody that sorely deserves to be shot and they die, I'm ok with that. What I do want is to knock the bad guy down or slow him up enough that I can get someplace else and let the platoon of blue suits deal with him.
I'll just hang on to my 45 like an old friend. It works for me, I have confidence in it and myself which to me is the most important thing. If your confident in your 25 or 380 or 9. Good for you. Go forth and conquer. I'll lay low in the man cave a short distance from a rifle.
OldLincoln
07-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Yeah the forum that came from has 2 pages and going hot and heavy over killing an elephant with a 22, primary/secondary shock cavities, fat/skinny BG, just shoot him in the head - picture trying to shoot a dog in a dog fight with a head shot, or a break dancer.
That's all nonsense to me, if you have to shoot, shoot whatever you have, shoot accurately, quickly and consistently until the BG is stopped (even if shot in return during the process). That's what I try to practice (except the last part).
My takeaway from the study is the closeness in actual results between the 380 to 45 in the last graph showing the failure to stop results. Also placement which is no surprise showing 75% single shot stopping for head shots, 41% torso and 14 extremities. I favor the triple tap approach of the first two in the torso and third in the head IF he gives up the shot.
Oh well, it's just another study I found interesting - not life changing.
Bawanna
07-14-2011, 04:30 PM
http://www.wix.com/bawanna45/bawannas-grip-emporium#!portraits/photostackergallery0=0
Behold the Bawanna Grip Mozambique triple tap grip. For simple minded folks like myself I can use the grip to keep track.
Thanks Melissa. I looked all over for this picture, no idea how you got it and added it to the website but you rock for doing it.
PS- Melissa, I got your package today or I should say my wife did. She's starting to be slightly concerned. I don't see any problems getting a package from a Melissa? If the heat gets to be too much we might have to change your name to Frank. Nawww, lets keep her guessing.
Can't wait to get home and see what raw buckeye burl looks like.
Barth
07-14-2011, 04:59 PM
The FBI protocol test results I've seen parts of seem to indicate
that at least most LE ammo/calibers produce similar results.
Jeremiah/Az
07-14-2011, 05:14 PM
I found that the % of good hits, head & torso, were much higher than I would have thought. Most were in the high 70's to 80 %. You hear all these stories about adrenaline & panic in a self defense shooting.
JFootin
07-14-2011, 05:31 PM
http://www.wix.com/bawanna45/bawannas-grip-emporium#!portraits/photostackergallery0=0 (http://www.wix.com/bawanna45/bawannas-grip-emporium#%21portraits/photostackergallery0=0)
Behold the Bawanna Grip Mozambique triple tap grip. For simple minded folks like myself I can use the grip to keep track.
Thanks Melissa. I looked all over for this picture, no idea how you got it and added it to the website but you rock for doing it.
PS- Melissa, I got your package today or I should say my wife did. She's starting to be slightly concerned. I don't see any problems getting a package from a Melissa? If the heat gets to be too much we might have to change your name to Frank. Nawww, lets keep her guessing.
Can't wait to get home and see what raw buckeye burl looks like.
Fodder, I'm so proud! :cheer2: Of course, I'd be more proud if I had one or more guns decorated with your artistry! Now, if you can just figure out a way to put your grips onto polymer Kahrs! :w00t:
jocko
07-14-2011, 05:32 PM
we Just had a Terre Hauyte poli9ce officer (swat member) killed this week. The as-hole who shot him had a criminal record longer than my d-ck, but he knew guns and he shot the officer twice in the head and also shot his K-9 dog which servived. He died in a hgail of bullets so we have been told, autoposy will show if he did not shoot himself first in the head
OldLincoln
07-14-2011, 07:33 PM
I found that the % of good hits, head & torso, were much higher than I would have thought. Most were in the high 70's to 80 %. You hear all these stories about adrenaline & panic in a self defense shooting.
If you're talking about the numbers I put up, the percentages reflect the hits in the head/torso/extremities that were one shot stops. Not the percent of shots fired hitting those areas.
Home Town PD recently served a warrant that became a stand off with 8 or so officers about 15 feet from the front door when the guy opened the door a fired a few shots. The reaction was for all officers to open fire and shot about 100 rounds, hit the BG 2 or 3 times, his house a bunch, the house next door a few, a parked car and I think a few could not be accounted for.
Now these are street cops who practice a lot with free ammo and this is what they do when it counts. I consider their shooting pathetic and am ashamed of them for not doing better, considering they each qualify regularly shooting at paper. So, yeah, the real deal is very different, and those who think no sweat I'll just shoot them between the eyes is in for a real surprise if it goes down.
Rainman48314
07-14-2011, 09:09 PM
I found that the % of good hits, head & torso, were much higher than I would have thought. Most were in the high 70's to 80 %. You hear all these stories about adrenaline & panic in a self defense shooting.
Wasn't the sampling such that there had to be a head or torso hit to be included? A gunfight with all shots missing or all in the extremeties would not be in this analysis.
Rainman48314
07-14-2011, 09:16 PM
No... please not another caliber thread! .... Well maybe just a friendly fireside chat. I had some time today and stumbled across "Another" caliber study, this one of actual shooting and very well done. What makes this one different in my eyes is that is is real world numbers as compared to assumptions and eliminated incidents that don't fit a presumed picture.
Please take time to read the text as that's what sold me. I have to add I don't know the guy who did it or have hard evidence, it's just compelling to me.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866)Great article. I am happy carrying .380 or 9mm. :)
I am left to wonder if the demo of the shooter is a big but missing variable. I read this report to lump LEO and civilian shooters together. Even whether the "typical" .45 shooter is more experienced cannot be determined. If you train more and "graduate" to a .45 as you gain expertise, those shooting results are then skewed. Also some of the calibers would not be used in law enforcement. Still, I suspect his central point is valid.
Jeremiah/Az
07-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Thank you, gentlemen. I stand corrected. Under accuracy, it does say % of HITS to the head & torso.
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