"Out of the Box" Reliability Poll Results

[OldLincoln]

The 1911.com forum has a poll running for a while now reporting the numbers of guns by mfg with problems out of the box. I copied a table below of results from January - the most recent they posted. The sample size is pretty low as you would expect of a forum poll so consider that when viewing.

PLEASE read and forever note that: A) Most gun manufacturers have some out of the box problems; and B) Kahr is NOT the worst!!!!

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx269/OldLincoln/Misc/Poll-percentofgunewithproblemsoutofthebox.gif

[jocko]

oh my even GLOCKS AND KIMBERS WITH ISSUES. tHE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END


u did good Old Lincoln, renews my faith in Kahrs. I bet the 1911's guys hate to read that stuff though.

[O'Dell]

[QUOTE=jocko;83268]oh my even GLOCKS AND KIMBERS WITH ISSUES. tHE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END



[QUOTE]

And that surprises you because ....... ?

[jocko]

no, not really but it seems so many people brag on kimbers and glocks , like they can float on water.

the survey was informative tome but nothing I would take to the bank on. If I want a glock I will buy it. If I want a kimber I willbuy it and then hope for the best and if that doesn't work, then they both can have um back to make it right. I have not owned to many guns that have not had to visit the mother ship one time or another. My Glock, Ruger, Kahr (P380), Para, Kel tec, have all went back once or more. My 3 keltec 17 times. So I am not immune from gun issues, I bragon my K9 and PMK9 for they have been excellent guns, but I don't have my headin the sand that kahrs are flawless either. Ifmy Kahrs gave mesome of the fits that some have had to put up with, I would have peddled them a long time ago.I am not married to any one brand.

[yqtszhj]

Interesting. My cheap Philippine made Rock Island 1911 has a lower failure rate than a Kimber and Sig 1911??? Looks like nobody is perfect huh? Mine was 100% right out of the box. But so were my 2 Kahrs.

I really wonder how much of it was really broke problems and how much was just a detail not quite how it should be?

[jocko]

and when we get a good one OF ANYTHING we tend to tell others about it. Human nature. Alot of out of the box issues could also be just shooter issues to, A gun and a shooter have to mate up right to work right. Break in rounds might be a term most don't want to hear but I really do feel it means for the shooter to. Most all guns feel, hold and shoot different. Triggers are for many vastly different, Size does matter in semi's we know that. The big guns seem to work better than the ultra small guns.
Most kahrs as yqtszhj stated will also work great out of the box, but a good cleaning and inspection and lubing to me is not a down grade on the gun, but just good common sense. Assume nothing from the factory.

I know many have used the propper prepping of ur new kahr thread when buying a new gun and if it works perfect tends to praise the prep thread. Does it realy mean the gun would not have been perfect had one not did a damn thing to it but take it out of the box and shoot it. CERTAINLY NOT. my point is that if u clean your gun (if needed) and lube it before hand (if needed) and check things over on ur gun before that first trip, u might just catch something that is correctable at home and not to end up with a unpleasant first time shoot.. We have read of some outter recoil springs being put on backwards from the factory, or crapola in the striker channel. sure we know that should not happen with a new gun out of the box BUT IT DOES, so why not eliminate allthe possables before that first nice shoot...

[mr surveyor]

I would guess (no data to prove) that user error may account for 50% of returns. How many micro's have been returned for FTE due to user limp wristing? How many guns have been returned for shooting "low left" because the user was unfamiliar with long DA triggers? How many have been returned for inadvertant slide lock only to discover the user was accidentally hitting the slide lock with a high hold thumb?

Lot's of new shooters (as well as more experienced ones) don't recognize how much they, themselves, contribute to malfunctions. Like Jocko said, the smaller, and or lighter the handgun is, the more prone it may be to malfunctions in general....and my guess more often than not due to shooter induced error.

Also, some guns were just not originally designed for certain types of modern ammunition..... 1911 platforms in particular. The original 1911-1911A1 was designed for ball ammo and the steep feed ramp worked (works) fine with the intended round. Add the more aggressive, open cavity JHP rounds to the mix and you get a higher chance of failure to feed. The thread about unsupported chambers can be traced back (at least with the Kimber 1911's as well as others) to a refinement in the feed ramp's angle without changing the overall design of the frame. Whether one wants to claim that to be a design flaw (modifying a single component to overcome a relatively recently injected problem) can be debated. When Larry Seecamp first introduced his line of ultra compact handguns, they were designed around the best (at the time) self defense round on the market. The overall length of the cartridge was a determining factor in the design of the firearm. Obviously there were many purchasers that just didn't read the 'directions" and ended up complaining of feed issues when they wanted to practice with cheaper ball ammo. Obviously the ball ammo's extra length just would not play nice with a machine designed to feed the shorter round.

The offset feed ramp of the Kahr line, I believe incorporated to help lower the bore axis, could be one of the factors involved in the "first round charging issue". The offset angle probably has some effect on reducing the velocity that the round travels up the ramp into the chamber, which then requires more thrust to get the round chambered than if in a perfectly aligned feed ramp more common in other handguns.

The more innovative a manufacturer trys to be, the more complex the design becomes ... and a greater increase in the odds that a certain percentage of shooters will just not be able to instantly find harmony.

just my nonprofessional musings:D (ramblings)


surv

[jocko]

no actually a a pretty professional assumption to. I can't dispute anything you stated. I can tell you about 5 years ago whenI was having so many issues with my 3 kel tecs that I had a nice chat one day with a kt tech, whom did seem to know what he was talking about and he actually did tell me that over 50% of all returns of their 380 and 32 were shooter error. (limping). Thats where I picked up the statement from him that WE CAN FIX A BAD GUN but we can't fix the shooter.

It is easy to blame the gun for being around shooters all my life and selling guns for over 40 years, customers would come in with a gun issue and it WAS ALWAYS THE GUNS FAULT. GUNS CANNOT TALK.

Course this was many years ahead of the word LIMPWRISTING to, and many years before good small caliber guns hit the markets like we see today.. many new owners today who think they have to have the smallest 380 or 9mm out there who have no idea what ti takes to make a small gun work like a big frame gun. A shooter and a gun MUST match up to be right and even more so with these small ass guns.. Some hav eno patience so if the gun acts up, IT IS GONE, next thing we see or read is a blasting of that particular gun being a POS. It is the nature of a gun forum to..

[yqtszhj]

I thought my Beretta 92 was shooting left right out of the box. Didn't even pull it out for a while after that. Then me and my oldest son went out to shoot. I took my Beretta and he took his 70 year old P-38. I suggested a point contest and he agreed. So I aimed (a little to the right) and got close to the bullseye. He did about the same with his old P-38. So I felt confident and said "hey, you wanna try the Beretta?" He said sure. I told him that it shoots to the left.

Well he didn't believe me and aimed for the center of the target at 10 yards. Guess what? That joker had almost a clover leaf with the first 3 rounds dead center. So that means there was no issue with the gun... IT WAS ME!!:eek:

Well I told him he wins. I am glad to find out I was the issue though. Now I know where to start to fix it.

[Barth]

Guess I’ve been lucky?

1) Smith and Wesson M629 - 44 Mag
2) Smith and Wesson 342 ti - 38+P
3) H&K USP Compact - 45 ACP
4) Sig Sauer P220 - 45 ACP
5) Sig Sauer P239 - 357 Sig
6) Kahr MK40 Elite – 40 S&W

All 100% reliable (even during break in) out of the box.
Hopefully my luck will hold!

[knkali]

oh my even GLOCKS AND KIMBERS WITH ISSUES. tHE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END


u did good Old Lincoln, renews my faith in Kahrs. I bet the 1911's guys hate to read that stuff though.

Hey I have a small shrine with candles next to my Kimber.

[deadhead1971]

My Kimber Ultra Raptor has had 17 malfunctions in 919 rds...an assortment of ftfs, slide locking back early with rds in mag, and a failure to chamber the 1st round

[jocko]

Interesting. My cheap Philippine made Rock Island 1911 has a lower failure rate than a Kimber and Sig 1911??? Looks like nobody is perfect huh? Mine was 100% right out of the box. But so were my 2 Kahrs.

I really wonder how much of it was really broke problems and how much was just a detail not quite how it should be?

think ur right, more of a detail issue and a needed more rounds down range toge the guns mated up correctly to. Seems everyone feels it should be perfect out of the box and if it acts up in x umber of rounds then it is a bad gun, when maybe a few more rounds down range will smooth out alot of things, including the shooter to. When we get a good gun, we brag on it, when we donj't every gun rag forum hears about it. that is the nature of gun forums, car forums, otorcycle forum etc. There are also people who just roll around gun fourms ragging that gun forum just to stir sh-t. Some people enjoy that type of agitation to others

I think it is the J.D Powers survey that rate cars etc based on the first 90 days of ownership. If u had one or less issues in 90 days, ur car rated very high, meaning basicaly every car had an a 90 day break in time to get right or wrong..

[O'Dell]

Hey Barth. My P220 and USP c 45 were/are also perfect. I hate to go off subject, but what do you think of the P239? My LGS has one in 40 cal for an excellent price, that I've been admiring. It feels a bit heavy for the size, but otherwise I really like it, and I'm a thirty year SIG fan.

[Barth]

Hey Barth. My P220 and USP c 45 were/are also perfect. I hate to go off subject, but what do you think of the P239? My LGS has one in 40 cal for an excellent price, that I've been admiring. It feels a bit heavy for the size, but otherwise I really like it, and I'm a thirty year SIG fan.

Buy now and we’ll talk later – LOL!
Seriously, I absolutely LOVE my P239/357.
OMG it’s amazing.

Bought it used for $550.00 NIB with Hogue finger grove
rubber wrap around combat grips. Then sent the slide to Sig and has Siglite night sights put on it. It’s a SA/DA (not DAK or SRT).

The feel, fit and finish is outstanding.
The 357 necked down cartridge will not FTF and runs 1300 FPS out of the 3.6 inch barrel.
Plus you can drop in a 40 barrel and get 40 mags and now it’s a forty.
The trigger is better than my Sig P220 and it’s more accurate (for me).
But the best part of all is the total lack of recoil. It’s super loud, big flash, hits like a 357 magnum
and recoils like a 22. You will be blown away.

The 40 has to be even sweeter than the 357.

(BTW: The Hogue grips are a must. Let your friends shoot it and just smile...)

[O'Dell]

Buy now and we’ll talk later – LOL!
Seriously, I absolutely LOVE my P239/357.
OMG it’s amazing.

Bought it used for $550.00 NIB with Hogue finger grove
rubber wrap around combat grips. Then sent the slide to Sig and has Siglite night sights put on it. It’s a SA/DA (not DAK or SRT).

The feel, fit and finish is outstanding.
The 357 necked down cartridge will not FTF and runs 1300 FPS out of the 3.6 inch barrel.
Plus you can drop in a 40 barrel and get 40 mags and now it’s a forty.
The trigger is better than my Sig P220 and it’s more accurate (for me).
But the best part of all is the total lack of recoil. It’s super loud, big flash, hits like a 357 magnum
and recoils like a 22. You will be blown away.

The 40 has to be even sweeter than the 357.

(BTW: The Hogue grips are a must. Let your friends shoot it and just smile...)

The one in my store is new, DA/SA, and already has SigLites for $569.

[Barth]

The one in my store is new, DA/SA, and already has SigLites for $569.

What in the world are you waiting on?!?!?

(I'm guessing it's Black on Black Nitron Black Stainless as well right?)

[O'Dell]

What in the world are you waiting on?!?!?

(I'm guessing it's Black on Black Nitron Black Stainless as well right?)

Yeah, it's the basic w/NS, but I transposed - it's $659.

[Rainman48314]

Hey I have a small shrine with candles next to my Kimber.LOL, I hope you got some custom plates for your car too. Enjoy.:)

[Rainman48314]

think ur right, more of a detail issue and a needed more rounds down range toge the guns mated up correctly to. Seems everyone feels it should be perfect out of the box and if it acts up in x umber of rounds then it is a bad gun, when maybe a few more rounds down range will smooth out alot of things, including the shooter to. When we get a good gun, we brag on it, when we donj't every gun rag forum hears about it. that is the nature of gun forums, car forums, otorcycle forum etc. There are also people who just roll around gun fourms ragging that gun forum just to stir sh-t. Some people enjoy that type of agitation to others

I think it is the J.D Powers survey that rate cars etc based on the first 90 days of ownership. If u had one or less issues in 90 days, ur car rated very high, meaning basicaly every car had an a 90 day break in time to get right or wrong..You have a complete missunderstanding of what JD Powers is saying with its 90 day survey. Incidentally, this is not the only survey length they do. Read the attached in full to learn

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2010-APEAL-Study-Results/

[Barth]

Yeah, it's the basic w/NS, but I transposed - it's $659.

I like the $569 price LOL!
Seems like they usually run new between $750/$800.
It's still a good price. Not a steel like you got my mouth watering for.
But not bad. I personally think the P229/P239 is the best Sig Sauer has
to offer. As a certified gun nut I believe that a P239 would be a cherished
part of your collection as mine is. One friend of mine has several handguns
and after shooting it (P239/357) said it's in a completely different class.

He owes a Springfield XD 40, and a Walther PPS 40, among others.
I'm just saying...

[JFootin]

The thing I don't like about Sigs is they are totally made for right handers, with no option or consideration for lefties! :32:

Imagine how awkward it would be for you righties if ALL of the control levers were on the right side of the gun. Would you carry a SA/DA gun like that, and have to worry about manipulating the safety? Or a SA gun such as a 1911 for that matter. Now I know that Sig and some other makers produce 1911s with ambi safeties, but Sig's mainline guns are non-starters for me.

You know, for around $350, Taurus produces some guns built to U.S. military specs, and with COMPLETE ambi controls: the 800 series. These guns even have ambi slide release levers, which is very rare. I have read lots of good reports about these guns, and the price makes them that much more attractive. And these are in no way junk or throwaway guns.

Just a lefty's humble opinion... :hurt:

[wdg]

Poll results could be skewed a bit because many people don't follow recommended preps. If you properly prep ur Kahr the likelyhood of problems diminish significantly. I know many who just run to range and start shooting. That said, the best out-of-the box shooter I've encountered is the Glock 26. But love my CW9!

[O'Dell]

The thing I don't like about Sigs is they are totally made for right handers, with no option or consideration for lefties! :32:

Imagine how awkward it would be for you righties if ALL of the control levers were on the right side of the gun. Would you carry a SA/DA gun like that, and have to worry about manipulating the safety? Or a SA gun such as a 1911 for that matter. Now I know that Sig and some other makers produce 1911s with ambi safeties, but Sig's mainline guns are non-starters for me.

You know, for around $350, Taurus produces some guns built to U.S. military specs, and with COMPLETE ambi controls: the 800 series. These guns even have ambi slide release levers, which is very rare. I have read lots of good reports about these guns, and the price makes them that much more attractive. And these are in no way junk or throwaway guns.

Just a lefty's humble opinion... :hurt:

I understand where you are with this, but I'm one of the 90% who are right handed.

As far as Taurus is concerned they have lost me for good. These may be good guns, but I will no longer take a chance with Taurus. I have had three; one was a 24/7 pro compact 45 that was quite good. The other two were totally unreliable and Taurus could not make them right. I have owned about a dozen SIG's in the last thirty years, and not one has giver a problem other than allowing themselves to be stolen.

BTW, the only SIG's I know of with manual Safeties are the P238 and the 1911's. I have a 1911 C3 and you are right, no ambi safety.

[O'Dell]

I like the $569 price LOL!
Seems like they usually run new between $750/$800.
It's still a good price. Not a steel like you got my mouth watering for.
But not bad. I personally think the P229/P239 is the best Sig Sauer has
to offer. As a certified gun nut I believe that a P239 would be a cherished
part of your collection as mine is. One friend of mine has several handguns
and after shooting it (P239/357) said it's in a completely different class.

He owes a Springfield XD 40, and a Walther PPS 40, among others.
I'm just saying...

It certainly is tempting. If I got another gun I really wanted another 45, but I might spring for the P239. You ask what I was waiting for so here goes. One of the pistols stolen in February was an SS XD c 45. It has been recovered by the Auburn, GA Police Dept, and I pick it up tomorrow. Of the ten guns, this was probably my least favorite, not because it was a bad gun, but it just never excited me. I have no idea of it's current condition other than it's missing a mag, but I plan to use it as trading fodder for any new gun. So after I pick it up and clean it I will decide.

[Popeye]

I swear the guns gods have treated me well.

Kel tec P3at had 3 FTE's during the first 25 rounds of breakin. I think that might have been my fault not the pistols. 800+ rounds it been flawless.

Bersa Thunder .380- 2 FTF and 3 FTE's during breakin. "0" problems till the day I traded it. About 400 rounds

Springfield XD 9sc perfect straight out of the box. Approx. 2000+ rounds

Karh PM9 very slightly used, Perfect from shot one till present day. About 1,500 rounds

CZ 75 B Still breaking in but "0" problems. 120 rounds. Most accurate 9mm I've ever owned. Awsome pistol that is priced right.

RIA 1911 GI 45 cal. Slide lock had a burr on it that the bullet heads caught on in the begining. Locked the slide back prematurley. Removed burr never had another problem. 800+rounds. 40 round rapid fire drills without so much as a hiccup. JMB would be proud of this gun.

S&W 4013 used police cheifs pistol SS never had a problem. About 300 rounds. Traded it because that 's the gun I found I'm not a big fan of the 40cal. If it was a 9mm I'd more than likely still own it.

I can honestly said I've never owned a pistol that I've ever considered sending back. Lucky I guess when it comes to pistols.:D

[yqtszhj]

CZ 75 B Still breaking in but "0" problems. 120 rounds. Most accurate 9mm I've ever owned. Awsome pistol that is priced right.



I almost bought one of these a while back. Sometimes I really wish I would have. Nothing but GOOD reports on the CZ75B. I ended up with a Beretta 92FS instead. It's OK. Never a problem.




I can honestly said I've never owned a pistol that I've ever considered sending back. Lucky I guess when it comes to pistols.:D



Same here. Just wanted more money to buy more guns.

[Popeye]

yqtszhj

I read so many good things about the CZ line of pistols that when I saw the 75B in the display case at the gun shop I just had to check it out. I wasn't really looking to buy a gun that day. I actually wanted to just look at the new Ruger 1911 but darned if I didn't walk out with the 75-B.
Love my Kahr PM9 but this CZ has found a place in my collection. So far it seems like a very reliable,well balanced,accurate,pistol with same 1911 grip angle that I'm so fond of. I've also looked at the Beretta 92fs a couple times but just didn't like it enough to buy it. I've just heard to many comments about there lack of accuracy but I really can't say anything bad about them first hand. Who knows maybe some day I'll get the bug to buy one. As you can tell by the list of pistols I mentioned I'm far from being a brand snob.;)

[TucsonMTB]

Don't overlook the .45 ACP caliber SIG's. A fellow at the Pima Pistol Club has a new one that he is still learning to shoot. He has NO function issues, but was concerned about how his sights were set. He asked me to try it.

Three rounds later I stopped shooting. Two were overlapping in the one inch bulls eye at 15 yards and the third was touching the bulls eye. That seemed like a good time to stop and hand the gun back to its very pleased owner.

At least in single action, SIG's seem like great shooters. I have not noticed any reports of reliability issues. Based on that shooting experience and the very low felt recoil (even when compared to a full sized 1911) a SIG would be a happy choice if I were forced to buy a more modern pistol in .45 ACP. :)

Admittedly, they are not pretty . . . oh, well. :rolleyes:

[CJB]

I'm convinced that a lot of "gun issues" are "shooter issues".

[OldLincoln]

And that's really okay. We get new to experienced, poor to great shooters here and while a 1911 shooter can pretty much shoot any 1911, Kahrs are different and there is a definite learning curve.

I just want folks new to their Kahr to realize they have to adapt to it as it's like driving a super hot go-kart until they learn to handle it. Even one model to another.

[deadhead1971]

where is the poll? I am over there and don't see it.

[jocko]

old lincoln, u might be old but ur still wise. I have stated this many times a gun and the shooter have to mate up properly to be a good match. I think thit is alot why we see used guns around also. Something didn't click between the two, YMMV

[jocko]

where is the poll? I am over there and don't see it.

when u joined u did not buy the special decoader ring and get their special "poll" glasses:blah: