Barrel Cleaning = Not necessary?

[TucsonMTB]

Toward the bottom of the document at this link (http://www.schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=3zZ4oir3t50%3d&tabid=67&mid=445), Wil Schuemann, who I understand makes some of the best pistol barrels in existence, recommends that you NEVER clean your pistol bore.

I am wondering how I would get the chamber clean without using a brass brush. I will probably just keep running bronze brushes through the barrel, followed by an oily patch or two as usual. But, please share your thoughts . . . ;)

[ricklee4570]

I always clean mine. The only time I was evered instructed not too was when shooting rimfire in competition.

[jocko]

one mans theory doesn't mean it is is always right. I just cannot see how one could not think a barrel will foul up in time without cleaning. being I cannot shoot um near the same hole I will continue to clean my barrel. I know powders are better today than 30 years ago,k all bullet products are better but they still glide down a rifle barrel and rifly puts grooves in bullets, . There has to be residue left in the barrel, and it will continue to build up over time.

[slowpoke]

It sounds like he has not shot lead out of a 357.

[JFootin]

I could be wrong, but I think this man is talking about barrels that have only shot moly coated bullets. At any rate, I think the bullets used by the bench rest rifle competition shooters are very clean shooting.

How about just using a Boresnake with some oil on it, and pay attention to getting the chamber clean?

This brings up a point. jocko, have you ever replaced the barrel on that 32,000 plus round PM9? If not, maybe that is why you can't hit anything! :behindsofa:

[jocko]

same barrel, iut looks great, actully accuracy has not improved since day 1, . I really think my barrel is great, for every one in awhile I shoot some of the nicest one shot groups u will ever see.

My thougts on the barrel comment is again one should do what ever his mind tells him to do. I am very sure any barrel cleaning survery as to not clean it or clean it will be way way tipped towards cleaning it, but again one must do what one must do.

actually JFootin, maybe I have 3 bad kahr barrels. My K9 shoots bad to, my P380 is a tad better, course my PM9 the worst of all 3, IT JUST CANNOT BE ME.



Can it???

[JFootin]

actually JFootin, maybe I have 3 bad kahr barrels. My K9 shoots bad to, my P380 is a tad better, course my PM9 the worst of all 3, IT JUST CANNOT BE ME.

Can it???

I'll let you be the judge. :nerd:

[jocko]

not sure about the judge thing but I want the same jury as casey anthony had!!:behindsofa:

[TheTman]

Something from my own experience might explain the theory. My friend's uncle told him to shoot a few rounds of lead from his Beretta 92 and then switch to copper jacketed bullets. We did a test group from a rest with jacketed bullets, then shot a few lead bullets, then shot another group from a rest with copper bullets. The group did tighten up some after shooting the lead. I guess the lead residue helped the rifling spin the bullet or something. I did the same with my Star Model 30 and got the same results. The smaller groups were maybe an inch smaller than the pre-lead groups. Since then we've cleaned the barrels but always left a little of the lead in there. I haven't tried this with anything but those 9mm's.

[JFootin]

Something from my own experience might explain the theory. My friend's uncle told him to shoot a few rounds of lead from his Beretta 92 and then switch to copper jacketed bullets. We did a test group from a rest with jacketed bullets, then shot a few lead bullets, then shot another group from a rest with copper bullets. The group did tighten up some after shooting the lead. I guess the lead residue helped the rifling spin the bullet or something. I did the same with my Star Model 30 and got the same results. The smaller groups were maybe an inch smaller than the pre-lead groups. Since then we've cleaned the barrels but always left a little of the lead in there. I haven't tried this with anything but those 9mm's.

So, like I said, use a Boresnake with oil and clean the chamber well, but no wire brushes, right?

[jocko]

Something from my own experience might explain the theory. My friend's uncle told him to shoot a few rounds of lead from his Beretta 92 and then switch to copper jacketed bullets. We did a test group from a rest with jacketed bullets, then shot a few lead bullets, then shot another group from a rest with copper bullets. The group did tighten up some after shooting the lead. I guess the lead residue helped the rifling spin the bullet or something. I did the same with my Star Model 30 and got the same results. The smaller groups were maybe an inch smaller than the pre-lead groups. Since then we've cleaned the barrels but always left a little of the lead in there. I haven't tried this with anything but those 9mm's.

what the effect of that would be for polygonal rifled barrels. and buying lead bullets today is almosty a thing of the past. Maybe for reloaders yet, but even that is coming to an end.

[Longitude Zero]

Wil has some interesting thoughts but he is a mistake prone human like the rest of us. Good therois but kinda short on absolute facts. I always keep my barrells clean and have not had worries or ever seen accuracy or functionalty decrease.

Lead is not the only thing moving donw the barrel that is present. The gases of combustion and their byproducts.

[jocko]

agree. for me I never heard of the fella, course I don'tknow my next door neighbors name either.

[jocko]

as mine is also with 32,000 rounds through it. Cleanliness is next to Godliness, at least that is what the nuns would say if a young kid came to school with dirty hands..

Not me of course.!!!!

[TheTman]

I'm not a gun smith and don't feel qualified to give advice on how you should clean your barrel, I was just stating my experience. We cleaned the barrels pretty well, but left enough lead to grip the bullets better. I have no idea if this causes any additonal pressure to build up that may cause problems down the road.
I haven't shot any lead with my Kahrs, and generally use a wire brush on the barrels, not really concerned about a tight group in a SD situation, usually you want the holes to be spread out some to allow more bleeding out. I think in the owners manual it says use jacketed bullets only, so that's what I use.

[JFootin]

I'm not a gun smith and don't feel qualified to give advice on how you should clean your barrel, I was just stating my experience. We cleaned the barrels pretty well, but left enough lead to grip the bullets better. I have no idea if this causes any additonal pressure to build up that may cause problems down the road.
I haven't shot any lead with my Kahrs, and generally use a wire brush on the barrels, not really concerned about a tight group in a SD situation, usually you want the holes to be spread out some to allow more bleeding out. I think in the owners manual it says use jacketed bullets only, so that's what I use.

Aren't there other sources for lead buildup? Even when using jacketed bullets? Isn't there some lead in the propellants? I'm not real experienced. Just asking. :behindsofa:

[TheTman]

I think lead is no longer used due to it's toxicity, not sure, but I think so. After firing 200 some rounds in my CW40, I saw nothing in the barrel before I cleaned it that would indicate lead fouling. It was really pretty clean already. I'm sure there were bits of copper in the rifling, but couldn't really see it. I've heard of some bullets having a very thin layer of coating over the lead, that might cause some lead build up. I've never seen any lead build up in my pistols that only shoot jacketed bullets.
Since I quit reloading, I very seldom use lead bullets, so most my barrels stay pretty clean. My .44 specials and the magnum are the worst for lead fouling as I shoot a lot of lead semi wadcutters thru them for practice. I do take a wire brush to them and scour them pretty good I probably don't get all the lead out, but try to scour them until I don't see any lead streaks next to the rifling. My 357's don't see much use anymore and I've been using jacketed bullets when I do get them out, and they stay pretty clean.
I doubt if you'll have any problem with lead build up on your Kahr if you use decent quality jacketed ammo. If I'm wrong about any of this, please someone speak up.
I'm just going by my own experiences, others may have completely different results.

[earle8888]

B Wilson has a great cd on pistol cleaning. Also, barrels get fouled with Gilding metal, jacketing material.

[TominCA]

My 270 barrel coats itself with copper pretty quick and I notice accuracy will fall off at some point - especially with copper bullets. I have never seen much copper in a pistol barrel - I think they go too slow to get hot enough. I clean my pistols with one of those new "environmental" solvents - I think its called milpro 7 or something similar. Works okay but not close to the old Hoppes #9. I have also found CLP to be a good solvent and I clean my revolvers with it. I never bother to get a handgun "squeaky" clean. On rifles I have great luck with Wipe out and that's about all I use on barrels that are not chrome plated.

Never had any barrel damage (that I'm aware of) and feel good when the gun is clean.

[Dinger]

A barrel, be it handgun , rifle, or shotgun has to be cleaned at some point. All bullets/powder/primers foul the barrel and that fouling builds up and affects accuracy. I've never seen it affect pressure, but I won't say that it couldn't in an extreme case.
You fellas that clean, clean , clean, do more harm to the bore than those who shot several hundred rounds thru the gun before doing any meaningful cleaning. If you use jacketed bullets/quality ammo, it will suffice to run a swab thru the bore to rid it of powder residue. Clean the slide all you want, but take it easy on the bore.
I've shot handguns for over 40 years and have never seen ill effects from not cleaning the bore after every shooting session. I sometimes go 400 rounds or so in say my .357 mag using CAST Bullets before I clean it. It depends on how much or how little leading I see in the bore. If the cast bullet alloy/lube is correct you can drive them @ 1400 fps and gett minimal leading. Anyway, my point is Clean the bore only when it needs it. Don't wear it out running a bore brush thru it to get every speck out of it. Dirty, the gun is capable of outshooting you on your best day.............

[JFootin]

Over 40 years! Now, that's some wisdom refined by experience. Thanks!

[georgepittenger]

actually JFootin, maybe I have 3 bad kahr barrels. My K9 shoots bad to, my P380 is a tad better, course my PM9 the worst of all 3, IT JUST CANNOT BE ME.



Can it???

Well they do say that a definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result ..... :p

By the 32,000 rounds put downrange I believe that you not only qualify , you are in the lead !

[Bawanna]

Well they do say that a definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result ..... :p

By the 32,000 rounds put downrange I believe that you not only qualify , you are in the lead !

Wow, I've always been competitive but now I find I'm in a race I didn't even know about. I do the same thing every day hoping for a different result too!
I've gotta be in the top 10 in this race.

Here I was so happy to learn Ahlzeimers and Dimentia were too different things so I thought I was ok, now you throw in insanity. Sort of mind wrenching. Do they make padded rooms with a window, maybe with a view of a waste water treatment plant?

I need to ponder this new development.

[Dinger]

I think lead is no longer used due to it's toxicity, not sure, but I think so. After firing 200 some rounds in my CW40, I saw nothing in the barrel before I cleaned it that would indicate lead fouling. It was really pretty clean already. I'm sure there were bits of copper in the rifling, but couldn't really see it. I've heard of some bullets having a very thin layer of coating over the lead, that might cause some lead build up. I've never seen any lead build up in my pistols that only shoot jacketed bullets.
Since I quit reloading, I very seldom use lead bullets, so most my barrels stay pretty clean. My .44 specials and the magnum are the worst for lead fouling as I shoot a lot of lead semi wadcutters thru them for practice. I do take a wire brush to them and scour them pretty good I probably don't get all the lead out, but try to scour them until I don't see any lead streaks next to the rifling. My 357's don't see much use anymore and I've been using jacketed bullets when I do get them out, and they stay pretty clean.
I doubt if you'll have any problem with lead build up on your Kahr if you use decent quality jacketed ammo. If I'm wrong about any of this, please someone speak up.
I'm just going by my own experiences, others may have completely different results.

Ammomakers still use lead cores in their FMJ ammo and bullets for reloaders. You will NOT get leading from any Jacketed bullet in a handgun as there is no lead exposed to make contact with the bore. Even jacketed bullets with the lead base exposed do not lead in handguns as the jacket is rolled over the edge of the bullet's diameter and terminated more towards the center of the base. You will get copper fouling (which is actually a copper alloy, not pure copper. They call it gilding metal) in the bore which doesn't show up as much as leading from cast or swaged lead bullets, but will, at some point, affect accuracy depending on the smoothness/roughness of the bore. You guys need to contact your congressmen and complain about lead bans etc. For shooting, lead poses no threat, I don't care what the tree huggers say. I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo im my liftime and most of it was cast bullet ammo that I reloaded. You young fellas need to read up on some of the old ways if for no other reason to have an understanding of how handguns ammo, etc. got to where it is today. Believe me, handgun ammo has changed dramatically since the 1960's. You couldn't get a jacketed hollowpoint bulllet to feed in a .45 ACP, let alone expand. Same was true in revolvers. Lee Jurras, Super Vel, started the whole handgun bullet expansion era in the early 1970's . I believe.
Lead was never used in the ingredients for making gunpowder that I ever read about or experienced. Burnt powder creates Carbon fouling/crud which is what you see, especially when you shoot mostly jacketed bullets. Shooting cast bullet reloads increases the soot & carbon fouling due to the bullet lube. Different powders produce varying amounts of carbon as well. Thanks for listening to my ramblings!

[wyntrout]

Lead is passé! Does anyone know where I can get some of those depleted uranium bullets I've read about... for self defense. I guess I would need a lead-lined holster, too, though. :rolleyes:

Oh, I might mention, that the reading was in novels, but, surely....

Wynn:w00t:

[Dinger]

[QUOTE=wyntrout;85765]Lead is passé!

Be careful what you deem out of date...............................It may just come back to haunt you. There may yet come a day when lead is the only metal you can find to spit out of that barrel of yours. You never know.

[wyntrout]

Old batteries and wheel weights!

I don't say lead is out of date, but there are plenty of proponents for getting rid of ammunition any way possible... in the elimination of guns!! :eek:

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

I saw a documentary once, about tiger poaching in Malaysia or Indonesia, or somewhere in that area of the world, where having guns was illegal and maybe even carried the death penalty, BUT, the camera crew followed one of the poachers who dug up his muzzle loader-type rifle and watched him melt down a tooth paste tube to make a bullet, with which he shot a tiger caught in one of his traps. Where there's a will....

Oh! Don't forget, in the case of jacket bullets with open bases... exposed lead... there is vaporization of lead and some is indeed deposited on the inside of the barrel... and in your lungs without proper ventilation! :eek:

Wynn:)

[Dinger]

Open based exposed lead jacketed bullets don't pose enough problem outdoors to be concerned with. Our society,including alot of shooters, has become paranoid and at the least little hint or suggestion of a possible problem, gets blown way out of proportion. I'll concede to indoor range air safety, but that's it.
As far as the measurably small amount of lead coming off the base of the bullet as a vapor, I've never seen any tests or confirmation that it was deposited throughout the bore. If so, you can't see it or measure it, so don't worry about it. That's my take on it.
I really believe that all shooters should have the basic components and reloading equipment to reload ammo, even if they never use it. Granted, I'm getting up in years and have acquired all my equipment since I was about 16, but I'll have it all until I die or I am unable to shoot or reload. I have no faith in others taking care of me or deciding what's best for me. I've done just fine on my own and will continue as long as my mind is functioning properly (which is debatable according to who you talk to). You have to keep all your options open................