Question for you Kimber Guys

[O'Dell]

I took the Ultra Carry II to the range for the first time today and had a little problem. First, the pistol was well cleaned, lubed, and prepped. I shot 150 rounds of WWB and 25 of GS's. On the first shot the gun would not go completely into battery. It stopped 1/4 to 1/3 inch short of the full cycle whether I released the lock or racked the slide. after the first, subsequent shots ran fine. These are standard Kimber mags, and it appears to me that the springs are too strong. What do you think?

I have two KimPro Tac-mags on order and have heard that they are better. Did I waste my money when I should have bought Wilson's?

On the plus side the pistol fed the HP's just like the Ball, that is flawlessly, after the first round.

The picture is my first 28 shots at 35 feet. The gun shot high-left or at least I shot it that way. I started adjusting after the first 10 or 12 rounds and you see the result. I don't know where that little guy on the lower left came from.

[DKD]

hey O'DELL,

If this Kimber is brand new give her a little time to take a set, just like our Kahr's. There spec's are very tight. I am quite sure she will settle down. Your idea to go with their Kinpro mags is sound in my opion. That is what I did and haven't had any problems from either my Pro Taptor or the shorty Ultra Raptor.

[slowpoke]

I had a 1911 that did something similar.
I was getting a a half circle ring mark on the brass where it was hanging up on the machined edge transition from the feed ramp to the chamber. Polishing the chamber and that edge cured it. But I think mine were hanging up a little farther out than yours. If remember it right the nickle cases went through a little easier than the brass cases.

[Bawanna]

I agree with DKD. I had one dept Kimber that did not like Wilson mags, very first 1911 I've ever found that didn't thrive on a Wilson mag. I still think it was other issues but we just don't feed it Wilsons any more. I carry nothing but Wilsons.
Try the new mags, give it some more love and I bet she runs for ya.
Far as that target, I wouldn't worry about that one little guy....................

[MW surveyor]

I'd love to have one "little guy" in the black like that. I know, messed up your group ;)

[gb6491]

I had a 1911 that did something similar.
I was getting a a half circle ring mark on the brass where it was hanging up on the machined edge transition from the feed ramp to the chamber. Polishing the chamber and that edge cured it. But I think mine were hanging up a little farther out than yours. If remember it right the nickle cases went through a little easier than the brass cases.
I've had 1911s hang up similar to what O'Dell describes and breaking/polishing that sharp edge that slowpoke describes has fixed the issue. As always, YMMV.
http://i53.tinypic.com/rcokl2.jpg
BTW, nice shooting:)
Regards,
Greg

[O'Dell]

hey O'DELL,

If this Kimber is brand new give her a little time to take a set, just like our Kahr's. There spec's are very tight. I am quite sure she will settle down. Your idea to go with their Kinpro mags is sound in my opion. That is what I did and haven't had any problems from either my Pro Taptor or the shorty Ultra Raptor.

No, it had never been fired. I should get the new mags Tuesday. I won't have to go to the range to determine if they solve the problem. If they will load the first round, I'm golden.

[O'Dell]

I've had 1911s hang up similar to what O'Dell describes and breaking/polishing that sharp edge that slowpoke describes has fixed the issue. As always, YMMV.
http://i53.tinypic.com/rcokl2.jpg
BTW, nice shooting:)
Regards,
Greg

The Kimber has a ramped barrel, as do my Springfield Loaded Lightweight and STI Escort. Only my SIG C3 has a conventional 1911 barrel.

[gb6491]

The Kimber has a ramped barrel, as do my Springfield Loaded Lightweight and STI Escort. Only my SIG C3 has a conventional 1911 barrel.
OK, alloy frames, but that transition point is still there on ramped barrels. If it's sharp it could possibly cause issues like you described. You might put a spot of grease there and see if the gun will hand cycle the first round. If it does, lightly breaking that edge will probably clear up the feed problem.
Regards,
Greg

[TucsonMTB]

Hey, O'Dell!

Congratulations on the fine new addition to your 1911 collection. You are going to love it very soon, trust me! :D


I took the Ultra Carry II to the range for the first time today and had a little problem. First, the pistol was well cleaned, lubed, and prepped. I shot 150 rounds of WWB and 25 of GS's. On the first shot the gun would not go completely into battery. It stopped 1/4 to 1/3 inch short of the full cycle whether I released the lock or racked the slide. after the first, subsequent shots ran fine. These are standard Kimber mags, and it appears to me that the springs are too strong. What do you think?
You have the right idea but, it's not that the mag springs are too strong so much as that when the fully loaded magazine is pressing the top round into that rectangular structure on the bottom of slide and the surface of that structure is not quite smooth enough. The resulting friction is slowing the slide too greatly to properly chamber the first round.

Disclaimer: I wish I could recall the proper name for that part of the slide, but I can't and Ed Brown does not mention it in his otherwise comprehensive 1911 reference. Sorry! :o

Admittedly, it is not just the friction in this area. The entire pistol is still tight and needs to wear in. If you call Kimber, they will tell you to call back after you have fired 500 rounds.

Since we know what happens during those early rounds and you can accelerate the process somewhat with a little judicious polishing, especially on that bottom slide surface that comes in contact so heavily with the top round in the magazine. It is easily accessible with the slide off. Make that surface more "mirror-like" and you will have eliminated a lot of friction.

You can also carefully polish the feed ramp, if you like. That will also accelerate the break-in process somewhat. But, usually Kimber ramps are "good enough" in the polish area. Admittedly, I never met a ramp that I didn't polish. ;) Just be even more careful than on a Kahr not to change any angles. Resist the urge to round sharp edges as well. Still, "mirror-like" is cool in this area too.


I have two KimPro Tac-mags on order and have heard that they are better. Did I waste my money when I should have bought Wilson's?
The KimPro Tac-mags are just fine. They have a nice skirted follower, which is important for alloy framed 1911's like yours. They fit flush, which is an advantage over the Wilson mags. That said, if you have a spare Wilson, even a full sized magazine, you can use it at the range to get through those first few hundred rounds with less frustration. Yeah, it will really stick out, but who cares for break-in.

Do not weaken the springs. They will sag quickly enough and you will probably be putting in replacements from Tripp, Wilson, or Wolff sooner than you like. Sorry about that. Otherwise, the magazines are great. In all fairness, it will be at least a couple thousand rounds before the springs sag.


On the plus side the pistol fed the HP's just like the Ball, that is flawlessly, after the first round.
Bravo! That means you have a winner. Once it self polishes by being shot and/or gets a little polishing from you in the two areas I mentioned, you will have a very reliable pistol. The nice thing is that once it starts feeding that first round, you will not have additional feeding problems. Kimbers are tight enough in the chamber that they will often balk when they get dirty, but even that will improve with break-in rounds.

That reminds me of the final area for polishing that is often recommended for 1911 reliability . . . the top of the chamber where the nose of the incoming round makes contact as it feeds. The entire chamber is worth polishing but way behind the bottom of the slide in terms of priority for solving the issue that you are experiencing.


The picture is my first 28 shots at 35 feet. The gun shot high-left or at least I shot it that way. I started adjusting after the first 10 or 12 rounds and you see the result. I don't know where that little guy on the lower left came from.
In my wife's hands our example of the pistol you have is as accurate as our full sized Kimber Stainless Target II. On a good day, it works that way for me too. The Kimber Ultra's are probably their best contribution to the 1911 world, in my opinion. We shoot a lot of 185 grain stuff in ours and the recoil, despite the light pistol weight, feels lighter than the full sized gun. :)

Enjoy!

[gb6491]

... into that rectangular structure on the bottom of slide and the surface of that structure is not quite smooth enough. The resulting friction is slowing the slide too greatly to properly chamber the first round.

Disclaimer: I wish I could recall the proper name for that part of the slide, but I can't and Ed Brown does not mention it in his otherwise comprehensive 1911 reference. Sorry! :o...
Cartridge pickup rail?
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I call it the stripper but I think we're all talking about the same thing. Could be a hold over from my days of youth and girly bars. Hope nobody believes that.

[TucsonMTB]

Thanks, Greg!

I "Googled" 1911 cartridge pickup rail and that is indeed the term used by people who can remember it while discussing their 1911 reliability mods.

Grizzly Custom Guns describes their "Complete 1911 dependability package" as including; Wilson Bulletproof extractor, tune ejector, polished feed ramp, throated barrel, polished breech face, polished cartridge pick-up rail, chamfer firing pin hole, polished chamber, ream chamber if necessary.

I have one Kimber that has the serial number of the frame scribed on the rail with a vibrating electric pencil or something. Needless to say, that one got some extra polishing. You can still read the number, but just barely. ;)

Now, if I can only remember my own name under pressure . . .

[TucsonMTB]

I call it the stripper but I think we're all talking about the same thing. Could be a hold over from my days of youth and girly bars. Hope nobody believes that.
I believe it . . . :D

[gb6491]

Thanks, Greg!

I "Googled" 1911 cartridge pickup rail and that is indeed the term used by people who can remember it while discussing their 1911 reliability mods.

Grizzly Custom Guns describes their "Complete 1911 dependability package" as including; Wilson Bulletproof extractor, tune ejector, polished feed ramp, throated barrel, polished breech face, polished cartridge pick-up rail, chamfer firing pin hole, polished chamber, ream chamber if necessary.

I have one Kimber that has the serial number of the frame scribed on the rail with a vibrating electric pencil or something. Needless to say, that one got some extra polishing. You can still read the number, but just barely. ;)

Now, if I can only remember my own name under pressure . . .
There are also some that call it the "disconnector rail". I didn't remember that earlier, but I had a picture in my mind of a modification I'd seen and finally remembered a gunsmith, Joe Chambers (Chambers Custom Pistols). I "Googled" him and found the photos and the "disconnector rail" crowd; photos of the mod are in post #12 here: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2826441

Springfield Armory does that electric pencil thing on the rail as well.

Regards,
Greg

[TucsonMTB]

What a marvelous modification, Greg . . . pun intended. :D

Thanks for sharing!

[Bawanna]

That really does look sweet. It took me a few minutes to grasp the concept but I think it's sound and should work like a champ.
I'd love to send my Cbob off to that fella and give it a try. It works fine, hate to mess with success but this has to be a good thing.

[TheTman]

My buddies Ultra Carry II wouldn't feed Gold Dot 230gr after 400 breakin rounds, The store he bought from told him to try them again after 800 - 1000 rounds total breakin. I think he then called Kimber and they said the same. It will feed PDX1 ok though.

[O'Dell]

Hey, O'Dell!

Congratulations on the fine new addition to your 1911 collection. You are going to love it very soon, trust me! :D


You have the right idea but, it's not that the mag springs are too strong so much as that when the fully loaded magazine is pressing the top round into that rectangular structure on the bottom of slide and the surface of that structure is not quite smooth enough. The resulting friction is slowing the slide too greatly to properly chamber the first round.

Disclaimer: I wish I could recall the proper name for that part of the slide, but I can't and Ed Brown does not mention it in his otherwise comprehensive 1911 reference. Sorry! :o

Admittedly, it is not just the friction in this area. The entire pistol is still tight and needs to wear in. If you call Kimber, they will tell you to call back after you have fired 500 rounds.

Since we know what happens during those early rounds and you can accelerate the process somewhat with a little judicious polishing, especially on that bottom slide surface that comes in contact so heavily with the top round in the magazine. It is easily accessible with the slide off. Make that surface more "mirror-like" and you will have eliminated a lot of friction.

You can also carefully polish the feed ramp, if you like. That will also accelerate the break-in process somewhat. But, usually Kimber ramps are "good enough" in the polish area. Admittedly, I never met a ramp that I didn't polish. ;) Just be even more careful than on a Kahr not to change any angles. Resist the urge to round sharp edges as well. Still, "mirror-like" is cool in this area too.


The KimPro Tac-mags are just fine. They have a nice skirted follower, which is important for alloy framed 1911's like yours. They fit flush, which is an advantage over the Wilson mags. That said, if you have a spare Wilson, even a full sized magazine, you can use it at the range to get through those first few hundred rounds with less frustration. Yeah, it will really stick out, but who cares for break-in.

Do not weaken the springs. They will sag quickly enough and you will probably be putting in replacements from Tripp, Wilson, or Wolff sooner than you like. Sorry about that. Otherwise, the magazines are great. In all fairness, it will be at least a couple thousand rounds before the springs sag.


Bravo! That means you have a winner. Once it self polishes by being shot and/or gets a little polishing from you in the two areas I mentioned, you will have a very reliable pistol. The nice thing is that once it starts feeding that first round, you will not have additional feeding problems. Kimbers are tight enough in the chamber that they will often balk when they get dirty, but even that will improve with break-in rounds.

That reminds me of the final area for polishing that is often recommended for 1911 reliability . . . the top of the chamber where the nose of the incoming round makes contact as it feeds. The entire chamber is worth polishing but way behind the bottom of the slide in terms of priority for solving the issue that you are experiencing.


In my wife's hands our example of the pistol you have is as accurate as our full sized Kimber Stainless Target II. On a good day, it works that way for me too. The Kimber Ultra's are probably their best contribution to the 1911 world, in my opinion. We shoot a lot of 185 grain stuff in ours and the recoil, despite the light pistol weight, feels lighter than the full sized gun. :)

Enjoy!

Yeah it's the pickup rail. I hadn't polished it but I do always put a thin coat of grease on it. I also polished the feed ramp as part of my normal prep. I realize that the chamber may be a bit tight, but I have no way to polish it except with the old 'rolled up sandpaper trick.

The KimPro mags come with two buffers or you can use them flush which I prefer. I had actually ordered them for the STI as it also has an alloy frame. In fact all four of my 1911's are alloy. Unfortunately the STI is in Texas being breathed on by the factory gunsmiths.

That brings me to break in, which has always been a sore point with me. I have already spent over $75 in ammo and the pistol is still not serviceable. It will take another $150 to get to 500 rounds and before Kimber will even talk about it. At least STI said sent it back and we will fix it after 180 rounds, but even that isn't acceptable to me for a $1000 plus gun. Every pistol I own or have owned in the last few years has worked flawlessly right out of the box except the STI and Kimber. That includes SIGs, HKs, S&Ws, Kahrs, Springfields, Rugers, and even the lowly LCP that my son gave me. The last pistol that didn't was a KelTec or Taurus, I forget, but in both cases I got rid of the offending guns, and haven't bought another from that company.

The STI and Kimber are both 3 inch 1911's and that may have something to do with it. However both of my 3 inch Springfields ran fine and they were cheaper than the STI or Kimber. I've had two short barrelled SIG 1911's, and neither had a problem.

Maybe I'm getting spoiled or my luck has been extraordinary [never happened before], but equate it to cars. They have thousands of parts and are a thousand time more complicated than a pistol, but I don't remember the last time I had a problem with one.

[TucsonMTB]

Hey O'Dell . . . polish the rail and get over it. Otherwise, peddle the gun. Someone will get a great bargain. :D

Alternatively, since you are trained as a lawyer, just call Kimber and complain. Tell them the gun has 500 rounds through it. They will cheerfully ask you to send it in. When they get it they will ream the chamber for you at no cost. Happens all the time. ;)

[TucsonMTB]

Hey, O'Dell!

I've been thinking about this, but I am a slow thinker . . .

What happens if you load the chamber from a partially filled magazine and then insert a full magazine?

Compared to just inserting a full magazine in an empty gun . . . loading the first round before inserting a full magazine will provide one more round in the gun. In this size 1911, with one less round in the shorter grip, the added round could be a good thing. :D

[Dirt doc]

I picked up a new Ultra crimson carry II last February. In the first couple mags I fired I experienced a couple of failures to return to battery. However the problem did not persist and has been perfect since with a wide variety of range and sd ammo. I didn't polish anything, just shot it and cleaned it after each range session.

There is a thread on one of the 1911 sites about a certain style mag chewing up the mag well on the Kimbers. You may want to check that out. I use the original Kimber mag and a couple of Wilsons. They have worked fine. I have set aside a couple of others until I get around to replacing the followers on those.

Dirt doc

[TucsonMTB]

While Mr. Dirt Doc's experience is typical, I wish Atlanta were a little closer to Tucson so that I could offer to polish your chamber for you. Sometimes the chambers really are too tight. It's part of Kimber's enthusiasm for accuracy, I guess. You might also try a self defense round with a nickle plated case. A shorter, 185 grain or 200 grain round would be an especially good choice. Worst case, you could put one of whatever works best on the top of your spare magazine. I was doing that for a while with the first of my Kahr PM40's that took so long to smooth out. With the Kahr, even a trip back to the mother ship did not make it work. I ended up polishing the chamber, polishing the extractor, and finally the breach face before the polishing and about 400 rounds made it work reliably. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't have to do that with a $600 Kahr . . . oh well. ;)

Oh, and on 1911's, sometimes a too tight extractor will prevent feeding. Usually that is not limited to the first round, but asking the shop who sold it to you to check, and adjust only if it is too tight, the extractor tension might be helpful. That process takes no more than 10 minutes even for us shade tree wanna-be gunsmiths. :)

[O'Dell]

While Mr. Dirt Doc's experience is typical, I wish Atlanta were a little closer to Tucson so that I could offer to polish your chamber for you. Sometimes the chambers really are too tight. It's part of Kimber's enthusiasm for accuracy, I guess. You might also try a self defense round with a nickle plated case. A shorter, 185 grain or 200 grain round would be an especially good choice. Worst case, you could put one of whatever works best on the top of your spare magazine. I was doing that for a while with the first of my Kahr PM40's that took so long to smooth out. With the Kahr, even a trip back to the mother ship did not make it work. I ended up polishing the chamber, polishing the extractor, and finally the breach face before the polishing and about 400 rounds made it work reliably. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't have to do that with a $600 Kahr . . . oh well. ;)

Oh, and on 1911's, sometimes a too tight extractor will prevent feeding. Usually that is not limited to the first round, but asking the shop who sold it to you to check, and adjust only if it is too tight, the extractor tension might be helpful. That process takes no more than 10 minutes even for us shade tree wanna-be gunsmiths. :)

As I mentioned last night, I'm nearing 400 rounds with absolutely no change - first round from a full mag will not go into battery, ever, after that everything works. If I only load the mag with 5 rounds, everything works. I've tried 6 different brands/types of ammo - it makes no difference. One was 185 gr Golden Saber with a nickel case.

I broke down and called Kimber today. First the rep said they wanted to look at the pistol. Then I told her I was expecting two KimPro mags today. She said those are super mags and to try them. If that doesn't work, call back and arrange to send the gun back.

BTW, I tried as you suggested to load one and then try a full mag. Same problem with the full mag.

[TucsonMTB]

Well done, sir!

Kahr and Kimber have more in common than just the first letter when it comes to customer service. You could not have handled it better. Now that they have made a commitment to making your gun right, they will earn your respect.

If it does go back, and I believe it will, they will most likely ream the chamber eliminating enough friction to ensure proper function. Admittedly, I have been wrong before, probably earlier today . . . :o

In any event, based on my experience with the same pistol, once this puppy starts working, it will be very reliable.

Oh, and the counter for break-in does NOT start over when it comes back. The wear polishing that you have achieved to date is on other parts of the frame and slide. Either they polish after they ream or the reaming process leaves an excellent finish because most people have big smiles when their Kimber comes back from the mother ship.

I still have all appropriate appendages crossed, which makes it hard to type, so I am looking forward to a good report very soon. ;)

[O'Dell]

UPDATE!! Just after I posted the other message, UPS arrived with the KimPro Tec mags. They look exactly like the standard, follower, feed lips, bullet angle, etc, except the base plate is very slightly different and the witness hole are numbered. Of course the springs could be different.

I locked the slide back five times on a full mag and released the lock - all five chambered. What? Then I did the same but hand racked the slide five times. Again every one chambered properly. Although everything looks the same, these seem to work. I won't know until I get to the range again, but it's encouraging.

[TucsonMTB]

Yee-haw! :D

[O'Dell]

This should be the final report on this thread. I didn't have much time today and it was so HOT, but I did shoot the 14 generic Remington HP's that were in the mags plus another 70 rounds of bulk FMJ's, and can report no problems with the new KimPro mags. This puts me at over 450 rounds through the UC II. Thanks for all the help, Guys.

[wayneo1]

Just my two cents I would shoot the heck out of it, I bet it straightens up all by itself.

[TucsonMTB]

Just my two cents I would shoot the heck out of it, I bet it straightens up all by itself.
If you read the thread closely, I believe you will find that Mr. O'Dell believes he has already done that, with the help of two better quality magazines than the one Kimber ships with the pistol.

I would say he is to be congratulated for his perseverance. And, now for being the proud owner of a really neat, small 1911. :)

For those of us who like pocket carry, that gun is light and small enough for the purpose.

http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejustsomeguy/KimberUltra_DesNem.JPG

[DKD]

Now that there is a purdy peice of hardware if I ver saw one and that is for sure and for certain. My two Kimbers and two Kahrs are the pride of my stable.

[TucsonMTB]

Now that there is a purdy peice of hardware if I ver saw one and that is for sure and for certain.
Thank you, kind sir! :D


My two Kimbers and two Kahrs are the pride of my stable.
Ditto! But, mine is a very small stable. The only other item of quality is a Dan Wesson CBOB like Bawanna's. And, the Kahr's were the only guns purchased new.

I am so cheap . . . :rolleyes:

Edited to add: Now, Mr. O'Dell . . . he has a collection!

[Bawanna]

A man with a Cbob can die happy, they rock. I was just looking at my stash of receipts last night and by Cbob was bought used from Hyatts all the way in North Carolina! Took her awhile to find me but we're stuck like glue now.
I wish an old member MX5 Fan who had one too and gave me the wants for one real bad was still around so I could share my joy with her as well. Now that I ponder it she's also responsible for my insatiable love of buckeye burl too. Wonder if she's Melissa's sister? Could be.

Is there a difference between cheap as in not willing to spend and cheap not having the marbles to do what your heart really wants to do?

I guess maybe so, cheap versus poor. Guess there'd be alot of gun hoarding if we were all rich huh.

[O'Dell]

Thank you, kind sir! :D


Ditto! But, mine is a very small stable. The only other item of quality is a Dan Wesson CBOB like Bawanna's. And, the Kahr's were the only guns purchased new.

I am so cheap . . . :rolleyes:

Edited to add: Now, Mr. O'Dell . . . he has a collection!

Why thank you Master Tucson - you are too kind. However, I consider my thirteen pistol collection relatively modest also. Most were bought with a good deal of thought and research behind them, but occasionally something pops up like the Kimber and I just buy it on the spot.

Over the last year my problem hasn't been acquiring guns, but just hanging on to them. I think though, that after each episode, the collection has come back more interesting.

Hopefully, with my 'hardened house' and the fact that the miscreants are probably in jail, that problem has lessened. When I came home from dinner tonight about 10:30, there was a Gwinnett County patrol car sitting near the entrance to the subdivision. I stopped to thank him for being there, and he said "How are you tonight, Mr. Conner." I didn't know him, but it seems that I have become famous [or notorious ] with the local police.