LEO stops for OC in CA

[aray]

Saw these on another gun forum. Two videos of LEO stops of civilians OC. OC is legal in California as long as the gun is unloaded.

Gotta say I was mighty impressed with the reaction of the LEO. Very professional.

Have to admit I was less impressed with the gun owners. Yeah, I know it is their right, but I think courtesy and understanding go a long way. Anyone who OCs has got to realize that 911 is going to get "man with gun" calls from an uninformed public and the police have to respond. Most times I also have to believe the end result of that call is not good news. So I think the gun owners ought to have a bit of sympathy for how the LEO have to respond.

I support OC but even if it were allowed in my home state (it isn't) I'd still chose to CCW. (Can't even do that in Maryland but that's another story). But I especially don't think someone who does chose to OC should do so trying to "make a point".

Anyway, kudos to the responding officers in my book. They have a tough job to do and they handled these two calls well in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMMPV4D6cs0

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rasQ0ktGiyM

What do ya'll think?

[knkali]

I cannot see what the guy is trying to prove. I think the LEO's were excellent in doing their duty. I wish that the guy causing the ruckus understands that he is keeping patrols from handling other calls while he is doing "his thing". While he is not breaking the law, he is causing a strong concern with those around him. I understand why people are concerned too. In short I do not like what I saw from the OC guy but he is following the law and he said, in a convoluted way, if you search him he will not resist. I do not think he is helping to foster approval for loaded OC carry laws in the future.

[ltxi]

What do I think....

Cop in the first video is the patrol guy I would most aspire to be. I admire him. Great professional sanity.

I only watched the second one into about a minute and a half. Figured any more would be a waste of my time. The cops have obviously had contact with the perp (and I don't use the term lightly) before. Guy was trying, apparently as usual, to provoke them. A head case. We don't need his kind.

Especially having lived much of my life there, I perhaps understand Californian's frustrated attempts to assert what's left of their gun rights. But wrt the second dude in particular, I don't understand the point.

[Dietrich]

Open carry is legal in my state but I don`t actually do it in public.I`ll open carry in the woods just in case a snake feels the need to commit suicide but I don`t OC in town.There is a small but vocal group of guys that are meeting in public places and open carrying just because they can.It makes a lot of people nervous and, in my opinion,does more harm than good.John Q. Public just isn`t used to seeing anyone other than LEOs with a gun strapped to their waist.I do not have a solution for this particular situation.I`m glad we have the right to OC because that takes a lot of the heat off if your legally concealed gun is accidently uncovered.The main reason I don`t open carry is that I don`t like to draw attention to myself.The general public is easy enough to throw into a panic without me contributing to the confusion.

[JFootin]

+1 Dietrich. Up here, people still don't lock their doors. It is not a dangerous place. But all my adult life, I have been aware that there is a very thin veneer of civility covering our society. Let something bad enough happen - where store shelves become barren, gas pumps empty, dollars so worthless you could use them for toilet paper, and even church going men will turn into home invaders and murderers. Anarchy would be popping up like wild fires. Civil war in the not so distant future seems inevitable as we watch the continuing insanity in Washington, and in the voting booth.

The time to arm oneself whenever out in public is already here for a lot of us who live in large cities, and even in rural areas within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Many of the rest of us do not, as yet, see a compelling reason to do so. But we are gun owners, and shooters, and holster buyers, and gun forum members in order to ready ourselves for that eventuality. JMHO.

[LaP]

I watched the first vid. The second one would not load.

That first cop was what I hope is the norm.
He was calm, professional, completely in charge, and familiar with the law. Excellent.

He gets bonus points for having a sense of humor:
"This should look good on YOUTUBE, I don't have a problem with that, just spell my name correctly"
"I'm a Marine too. Have a good day. God bless America."

It don't get no better than that.

[TheTman]

I don't get the point of openly carrying an unloaded gun around just because you can. Hell yes people are going to freak and call the cops. In Kansas we can open carry while hunting or fishing, on our own property, and in our own business or while working for someone that permits you to carry. I can see the point in that, with snakes and feral dogs and other varmints running loose, particularly if all you have to defend yourself is a fishin pole. When I lived on the farm, I often went around with a pistol on my hip because of people dumping dogs out near my house. I had a run in with a pair of wild rottweilers and was very glad I had a gun handy, they took off with a warning shot into the ground. Probably should have dispatched them so they didn't maul some kid, but I was scared and not thinking about anything but saving my hide from a couple wild hungry big dogs. It was also awful hot to be digging holes to bury them.
But parading around in public with an unloaded gun on your hip just seems stupid to me, particularly if you have no way to load it if you were to need it, I gather having ammunition on you while open carrying is prohibited, so what is the point? That first cop was a super great guy, the 2nd one I didn't watch much of, but he seemed pretty professional too. All these open carry guys are doing is causing people to freak out, waste cops time, and generally being a ********, just so they can excercise a right that doesn't doesn't accomplish a damn thing. I might open carry a loaded gun if I ran a quick mart or liqour store or other frequent target of robberies, but would rather have it out of sight with quick access for the element of surprise to the robber. When I'm out doing stuff, I sure don't want anyone other than the people I am with to know I am armed, so they can get out of my way if an incident happens, or take shelter behind me or whatever. I don't see the need to make myself a target if robbery takes place while I am present. If someone has a good reason to openly carry an unloaded gun, with no ammo available, I'd sure like to hear it. I think all they are going to accomplish is getting the right to open carry banned. I saw a video of some nitwit trying to explain it, but it still makes no sense to me.

[OldLincoln]

I have tried to understand the point of open unloaded carry but all I see is a big chip on a few causing disturbance in society that is leading to more gun legislation that will make it difficult for everybody. The Brady Bunch probably cheers every time this stuff makes the news and alarms the lambs so they call for more sheep dogs.

If the purpose is simply to carry an unloaded gun in a holster why the hostility and provocation? Why not be friendly and encourage the LEO to ensure it is unloaded as they perform their sworn public safety responsibilities.

The cracks about why don't they go after crooks instead of people carrying guns in plain sight is lost on my dense skull. I suppose the open carry groups will next petition for special group status and stops should be considered profiling.

Having said all this, I know others disagree and I don't take issue with it. Just as they have their right to speak and act in favor I have mine as stated above. I agree with their right to open carry, I just wish they wouldn't. It's like having the right to bark at the moon but you won't make friends doing that either.

[LaP]

I just watched most of the second vid. I agree with OldLincoln's post. It seems this open carry guy was just provoking the police. They were being very professional and courteous....if not downright friendly. The civilian was extremely defensive and a little obnoxious. That will only make his life harder and it reflects poorly on all of us gunowners in in general.
I'm not implying that all police react in such a calm and professional manner. I know that some encounters do not go as well as this one. But, please, if you're going to open carry, be as polite as the officer is. Don't give them a reason to escalate their actions. At least present yourself as a responsible citizen. Then at least you can say you did your part correctly.

My $.02
:cool:

[Longitude Zero]

With OC unfortunatley I have seen more "zealots" than true OC people. They OC in a manner meant to draw the maximum attention and then scream when they get it. They are NOT helpful and need to stop their idiotic behavior before another restricion is dropped on the rest of us.

[Agent Smith]

^ This. Many open carriers in Ca are immature 20-something attention whores. They're not helping as the two consecutive bills introduced banning OC in Ca have shown. There are lots of people here, gun owners among them, who'll be glad when it happens.

[muggsy]

What I think these OC advocates are trying to do in their own misguided way is to reestablish our second amendment right. The second amendment states in part that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If that's the case then why is it illegal for a law abiding citizen to openly carry a loaded firearm? While I don't agree with OC advocates methods I do agree with their position. All law abiding citizens have the right to keep and bear arms.

[getsome]

I'll agree that OC should be a legal gun owners right but I'll also agree that I don't think its very smart and in the end causes problems for CCW folks too...Last month California Governor and head clown Jerry Brown signed into law a bill making OC illegal in the state and (here is the part that hurts CCW) A provision of the same law made all new CCW licenses "May Issue" and not "Shall Issue" meaning that it the local Sheriff doesn't like you or is just a hard a$$ he or she doesn't have to issue a permit even if the person applying for it is perfectly legal....Shall issue means just that, if you are legal then the powers to be must issue the permit...

In the end I think some people that OC cause all gun owners problems and from what I have seen just want attention and to cause incidents with Law Enforcement they can put on U-Tube to show all their friends what a big man they think they are...Just my 2 cents

[Longitude Zero]

In the end I think some people that OC cause all gun owners problems and from what I have seen just want attention and to cause incidents with Law Enforcement they can put on U-Tube to show all their friends what a big man they think they are...Just my 2 cents

I know you have hit the nail on the head. Just because something is legal does not make it a good idea. It seems that the vast majority of the OC vids are of people that IMHO are trying to "provoke" an LEO issue/comfrontation then they cry about their rights. Puhleeze.

For us that CCW the OC'ers are actually a help for us. The OC folks will be the first ones popped by the bad guy and that gives us CCW'rs the advantage of notice and we react instead of getting shot first. The term Cannon Fodder comes to mind.

[getsome]

Yep +1 on that....The last thing I want the BG to see is my gun coming up on his face and the last words I want to hear from him is OH F$%k!!!!.....:86:

[TheTman]

Well they provoked something all right, AB144 was passed and as of Jan 1, 2012, OC of unloaded handguns is no longer legal in CA. I doubt if that was the result they were looking for. OC of unloaded long guns is still legal there.

[OldLincoln]

Tom is dead right. It couldn't have been more forceful had Mr Brady himself open carried and many tried to tell them they were harming their very cause. That's like drag racing down Main Street to protest the ban on drag racing. Or going nude to all the public places on the Fourth of July just because it may be legal. Well, it won't be legal for long will it.

I know some were personally convinced it was the right thing to do, and for them I am sorry. They were misled into doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

[John222]

While the majority of Americans support the 2nd amendment, when confronted with the open carry issue, they don't support it at all. And if you keep pressing the point, your going to loose the right. The 2nd amendment doesn't specify where you can keep and where you can bear arms. You going to provoke them to chip away at our rights. BTW, most of us don't want OC people at our kids soccer games and other such public venues. Some people get pretty nutty over sports and kids and last thing we need is a pissed off nut with a gun.

[TheTman]

I never got what the point of open carrying an UNLOADED gun was, other than to create disturbances, so you could film the cops "hassling" you over your excercising your rights. Someone tried to explain it, but I just thought it was being foolish, and indeed it cost them a "right". I really don't get why people want to show they are carrying a gun. When I carry, I only want those directly affected by it to know, so they can either get out of the way, or take cover behind me. Most people I hang out with anymore carry, so that's becoming less of an issue. And I ask residents if they mind that I am carrying in their house, and others I know just to leave it in the car. I still have a couple friends that dislike guns immensely, so I respect that and leave it in the car. I don't think the husband would mind, but his wife gets her panties in a knot over any discussion of 2nd admendment rights, "only cops should have guns" and all that. Well, I guess she can throw her knotted up panties at someone when their home gets invaded.

[John222]

Here in central PA we had an incident of some woman OC ing at a kid soccer game. Turned into a big stir while she exercised her right. She was arrested if I recall and all kinds of legal wrangling started. Anyway it all ended when her husband shot her in the back of the head when she video chatting with some other guy. Once again an OC person looked like an idiot.

I hate to say this, but if you OC in public places you may as well write idiot on your hat.

[LMT42]

Here in central PA we had an incident of some woman OC ing at a kid soccer game. Turned into a big stir while she exercised her right. She was arrested if I recall and all kinds of legal wrangling started. Anyway it all ended when her husband shot her in the back of the head when she video chatting with some other guy. Once again an OC person looked like an idiot.

I thought that happened in Arizona? Didn't her husband kill himself, too? Perhaps I'm thinking of a different incident.




I hate to say this, but if you OC in public places you may as well write idiot on your hat.

Yep, seems to be a certain type of person that OCs. They're usually more concerned with being provocative and getting noticed than protecting themselves. Too bad, as I'd like Texas to legalize open carry so it wouldn't be an offense if someone happens to see your concealed weapon.

[John222]

Nope, right here in PA.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/10/gun-toting_soccer_mom_is_shot.html

[tv_racin_fan]

I don't get it.

In these you tube videos one does not see normal everyday people going about their normal everyday business who just happen to open carry. These people are out to have some sort of confrontation and they video it for posting on youtube. Everyone who enjoys open carry does not set out to invite confrontation, some of us just happen to be more comfortable at times carrying openly.

In some parts of the country it aint totally unheard of to find some dude in Walmart with his single action revolver in his cowboy rig complete with ten gallon hat and boots, kinda hard to conceal that sort of rig.. tho he coulda worn his duster. Would I open carry in downtown Burbank?? NAHH... but I might well do so in downtown Cu mm ing GA. (in fact I have)

BUT please enlighten me as to which holster (IWB style) you think would be appropriate for concealing a Ruger Old Army revolver with 7 1/2 inch barrel. While you are at it my son has a Remington 1858 clone with 8 inch barrel and he does not like IWB, he would like some idea as to a concealable holster.. one that conceals in less than a duster/trenchcoat. Now understand that these are not our normal everyday carry handguns but on those days when we are hunting they go with us and we are likely to stop at the Waffle House for breakfast on the way out or lunch on the way home.. sometimes even visit Walmart or the gun shop while we are out. By the way it seems to me that it would be pointless to leave the revolver in the glove box when we would either have to stand in the parking lot and take off our holsters or leave em on... be kinda obvious that someone had been totin a handgun, and might still be, wouldn't it?

[John222]

I think when you open carry your just asking for attention and trouble. You can't use the dam thing unless your confronted with deadly force. For instance you strut into Bob Evans wearing that gun and some dad (1 foot and 100 lbs bigger than you) gets up in your face and maybe even starts ***** slapping you around in front of your wife. What are you going to do? You can't pull the dam gun, he's unarmed... Maybe you loose your temper and pull the gun to threated him. You still can't legally shoot him. And if he grabs it from you, he can pistol whip you or possibly even shoot you in self defense. Or the other possibility, you shoot an unarmed man. Now you really in trouble. So explain to what's the point of open carry, other that getting attention?

[Bawanna]

Guys my ugly meter is bouncing again. I'm not shutting this one down, we'll try to go the distance. I see both points of few and wearing hunting attire or a cowboy rig into a sporting goods store or a restaurant my be accepted in certain areas as mentioned.
I like legal open carry just so I'm not in the dog house if my covering garment fails momentarily.
Doesn't matter what I think really but we really gotta strive for civil and cool heads here.
Every time open carry is the subject threads get ugly and life's just too short to have to deal with ugly.

Group hug.

[muggsy]

Well they provoked something all right, AB144 was passed and as of Jan 1, 2012, OC of unloaded handguns is no longer legal in CA. I doubt if that was the result they were looking for. OC of unloaded long guns is still legal there.

Is that the fault of the OC proponents, or the fault of the socialist liberal idiots in California who elected Jerry Brown to office. If you are a resident of California get off your behind and stand up for your constitutional rights.

[muggsy]

I think when you open carry your just asking for attention and trouble. You can't use the dam thing unless your confronted with deadly force. For instance you strut into Bob Evans wearing that gun and some dad (1 foot and 100 lbs bigger than you) gets up in your face and maybe even starts ***** slapping you around in front of your wife. What are you going to do? You can't pull the dam gun, he's unarmed... Maybe you loose your temper and pull the gun to threated him. You still can't legally shoot him. And if he grabs it from you, he can pistol whip you or possibly even shoot you in self defense. Or the other possibility, you shoot an unarmed man. Now you really in trouble. So explain to what's the point of open carry, other that getting attention?

What do you do, tuck tail and run? I can't believe the number of weak sisters that are on this message board. If your constitutional rights aren't worth defending what will you defend?

[Longitude Zero]

Is that the fault of the OC proponents, or the fault of the socialist liberal idiots in California who elected Jerry Brown to office. If you are a resident of California get off your behind and stand up for your constitutional rights.

The obvious answer here is BOTH.

[TriggerMan]

I don't get it.

In these you tube videos one does not see normal everyday people going about their normal everyday business who just happen to open carry. These people are out to have some sort of confrontation and they video it for posting on youtube. Everyone who enjoys open carry does not set out to invite confrontation, some of us just happen to be more comfortable at times carrying openly.

In some parts of the country it aint totally unheard of to find some dude in Walmart with his single action revolver in his cowboy rig complete with ten gallon hat and boots, kinda hard to conceal that sort of rig.. tho he coulda worn his duster. Would I open carry in downtown Burbank?? NAHH... but I might well do so in downtown Cu mm ing GA. (in fact I have)

BUT please enlighten me as to which holster (IWB style) you think would be appropriate for concealing a Ruger Old Army revolver with 7 1/2 inch barrel. While you are at it my son has a Remington 1858 clone with 8 inch barrel and he does not like IWB, he would like some idea as to a concealable holster.. one that conceals in less than a duster/trenchcoat. Now understand that these are not our normal everyday carry handguns but on those days when we are hunting they go with us and we are likely to stop at the Waffle House for breakfast on the way out or lunch on the way home.. sometimes even visit Walmart or the gun shop while we are out. By the way it seems to me that it would be pointless to leave the revolver in the glove box when we would either have to stand in the parking lot and take off our holsters or leave em on... be kinda obvious that someone had been totin a handgun, and might still be, wouldn't it?The solution to your self created problem (7 1/2 inch or 8 inch barrel) is to carry an appropriate concealement weapon. It isn't for us to find you a holster.

At least you recognize OC isn't for everywhere (downtown Burbank). We're making progress. Pray for the gun enthusiats in California. They just lost their right to OC effective January 1. Seems OC alienated the public. Is that where you want GA to go? Thought not. Give it some thought.

Carry on.

[TriggerMan]

What do you do, tuck tail and run?
What do you do when the law requires you to retreat? Be real, no internet tough guy BS, OK? Serious question on a serious topic.

[MLESa7990]

What do you do when the law requires you to retreat? Be real, no internet tough guy BS, OK? Serious question on a serious topic.


^^^^This

[TriggerMan]

I don't get it.

... some of us just happen to be more comfortable at times carrying openly.

A late additional thought. Sorry for the split posts.

Wasn't it Col. Jeff Cooper who said, "Carrying a gun isn't supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting".

Have a nice day everyone. I sense this thread will get locked soon. All the issues have been covered in this thread and in one closed yesterday.

[MLESa7990]

I wanna hear back from muggsy first. Hopefully it stays open a bit longer!

[muggsy]

What do you do when the law requires you to retreat? Be real, no internet tough guy BS, OK? Serious question on a serious topic.

If the law requires me to retreat, I retreat. I'm a law abiding citizen. If it is my right to openly carry, I call the police and have them set the neanderthal straight.

[muggsy]

I wanna hear back from muggsy first. Hopefully it stays open a bit longer!

I hope that I didn't disappoint you MLES. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's my opinion that you don't retain your rights if you constantly retreat from them. The left has been chipping away at our rights for far too long.

[Bawanna]

A late additional thought. Sorry for the split posts.

Wasn't it Col. Jeff Cooper who said, "Carrying a gun isn't supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting".

Have a nice day everyone. I sense this thread will get locked soon. All the issues have been covered in this thread and in one closed yesterday.

That's actually a Clint Smith quote but both guys totally rock!

[Longitude Zero]

The left has been chipping away at our rights for far too long.

And way too often extreme right wing zealots/neandertals/idiots/buffoons give the lefties all the ammunition they need to shoot us in the foot. The phrase "You are your own worst enemy" comes to mind here.

[Bawanna]

I hope that I didn't disappoint you MLES. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's my opinion that you don't retain your rights if you constantly retreat from them. The left has been chipping away at our rights for far too long.

Actually far worse than the left chipping at our rights is the fact that open carry has become socially unacceptable in many if not most locations. There are of course exceptions. It's very difficult to once again program folks unaccustomed to seeing guns in the open to accept that it is ok.

Even in the old west many towns made you turn in your guns when in town.

I just don't see how we can reprogram people to accept the fact that it is ok. Even if we make them understand that it is perfectly legal they still aren't gonna be comfortable with it. They will call police, police will have to respond, a vicious circle. Those who legitimately do it like the trip hunting scenarios in certain area's again are probably gonna be ok. Those who do it to instigate and retrain (I love it when they say they are training the cops) are gonna create a scenario where the Open Carry law is gonna go away.

It's a sad deal really but it is what it is.

This thread is hanging on by a thread but I'm making the full 8 second ride. Let er buck!

[tv_racin_fan]

The solution to your self created problem (7 1/2 inch or 8 inch barrel) is to carry an appropriate concealement weapon. It isn't for us to find you a holster.

Why pray tell would I carry a smaller handgun when going hunting? and just for the record I do carry a smaller concealed handgun when I go out.

At least you recognize OC isn't for everywhere (downtown Burbank). We're making progress. Pray for the gun enthusiats in California. They just lost their right to OC effective January 1. Seems OC alienated the public. Is that where you want GA to go? Thought not. Give it some thought. Carry on.

I don't have a problem.. and I already have a suitable for me holster for both the ROA and the 1858. Trouble is they aint suitable for you and your ilk because they can be seen.

You catch the latest TV ad for the Next American Idol? Care to tell me what handgun the holster Steven Tyler has on is made for? Guess he shouldn't be open carrying that on a National TV ad...

[TriggerMan]

I don't have a problem.. and I already have a suitable for me holster for both the ROA and the 1858. Trouble is they aint suitable for you and your ilk because they can be seen.

You catch the latest TV ad for the Next American Idol? Care to tell me what handgun the holster Steven Tyler has on is made for? Guess he shouldn't be open carrying that on a National TV ad...

Not a big Steven Tyler fan and stopped watching Cowboys and Indians on TV about 50 years ago.

As to whether your holster is suitable (for "my ilk"--who talks like that?), you brought up that it wasn't suitable when you asked the members here to name a suitable holster. Further, no one is saying to hunt with a CCW weapon. Stick your 8 inch barell handgun in the truck until you get to the proper hunting area. Simple enough?

You don't see the danger to yourself from OC. You are clearly in the minority here. You ignore the danger to all your gun rights (AB 144 was signed into law. Open Carry will be illegal in CA effective Jan 1, 2012). You aren't any different than the guys on YouTube who don't have a clue about Public Relations. I've given you rational reasons for the superiority of CC. Many others have as well. Turn a blind eye at your own peril.

[TriggerMan]

If the law requires me to retreat, I retreat. I'm a law abiding citizen. If it is my right to openly carry, I call the police and have them set the neanderthal straight.So your snide "turn tail" comments were just trolling? Use more smiley faces next time.:mad:

[tv_racin_fan]

I think when you open carry your just asking for attention and trouble. You can't use the dam thing unless your confronted with deadly force. For instance you strut into Bob Evans wearing that gun and some dad (1 foot and 100 lbs bigger than you) gets up in your face and maybe even starts ***** slapping you around in front of your wife. What are you going to do? You can't pull the dam gun, he's unarmed... Maybe you loose your temper and pull the gun to threated him. You still can't legally shoot him. And if he grabs it from you, he can pistol whip you or possibly even shoot you in self defense. Or the other possibility, you shoot an unarmed man. Now you really in trouble. So explain to what's the point of open carry, other that getting attention?

"Poor fool gonna get a surprise ifn he done fooled with my wifes man. She gon pull her handgun outn her purse and stick it up in his nostril.. then she gon politely tell him to let her man alone while the son done got on his cell phone and done called da law."

Actully I can pull my handgun and in fact I can shoot him ifn he has attempted to hit me or my wife. Now ifn I do or not is gonna depend on the exact circumstances but I aint going to stand there and get my head beat in because some fool thinks I aint allowed to defend myself regardless of how I might be carrying a handgun that particular day.

Now see them boys that goes out open carrying and hoping for some conflict might well get what they want and they might even cause some fool politician to think he needs to put an end to the right to open carry. Kinda like some folk think politicians need to put an end to the right to carry period because they somehow think if they prevent law abiding citizens from keeping and bearing firearms criminals wont keep nor bear them either.

I full well understand that when I do open carry someone might get concerned and call the law. The leo will more than likely show up and either see what it is I am carrying and comment on what it is I am doing and send me on my way out hunting or he will ask me what it is I am doing and since I will respond politely that I am going on about my business he may inform me that it is a might silly to open carry or he might just send me on about my way.

Seems to me it is all about the intent and actions of the person doing the open carrying.

[tv_racin_fan]

Not a big Steven Tyler fan and stopped watching Cowboys and Indians on TV about 50 years ago.

As to whether your holster is suitable (for "my ilk"--who talks like that?), you brought up that it wasn't suitable when you asked the members here to name a suitable holster. Further, no one is saying to hunt with a CCW weapon. Stick your 8 inch barell handgun in the truck until you get to the proper hunting area. Simple enough?

No it isn't simple enough. YOU can leave your handgun in the truck if you like and you can stand out in the parking lot taking off your holster so you can leave it in the truck as well if you like. The law is very clear and I am fully within my right to wear my holster and my handgun into Waffle House to have breakfast or at the Quickie Mart to get gas and a soda or at Walmart to grab whatever it is I might want to grab.

You don't see the danger to yourself from OC. You are clearly in the minority here. You ignore the danger to all your gun rights (AB 144 was signed into law. Open Carry will be illegal in CA effective Jan 1, 2012). You aren't any different than the guys on YouTube who don't have a clue about Public Relations. I've given you rational reasons for the superiority of CC. Many others have as well. Turn a blind eye at your own peril.


There is danger in waking up in the morning.. danger in walking outside.. danger in drving my car. I see all of those dangers but I wont shrink back into my shell to avoid them.

There are rational reasons for both styles of carry... pros and cons. I do not ignore nor dismiss either.

[Longitude Zero]

There are rational reasons for both styles of carry... pros and cons. I do not ignore nor dismiss either.

Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

[tv_racin_fan]

Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

What you might do has little to no bearing on the issue. What the bad guys did was they sent in a bad guy to case the joint.. he spotted two good ole boys openly carrying handguns.. they bad guys decided to wait out the good ole boys... observant officer spotted the bad guys auto around back and when he investigated he arrested said bad guys... bad guys admitted they didn't committ the crime they had intended to committ because of the good ole boys and their openly carried handguns.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

You believe what you like how you like and you carry whatever firearm you like how you like.

[Longitude Zero]

You believe what you like how you like and you carry whatever firearm you like how you like.

You can bet I will as no opinions heard here will change my mind on that.

I didn't say it never happened only that I had not heard about it. Considering I do not live or visit the cesspool that is Atlanta nor its environs I was not aware of this event. I am glad that OC worked out. Unfortunately there is no emperical evidence to prove the opposite viewpoint although anyone with 2 or more living brain cells must admit it has occurred.

I have my opinion and so do others. I just happend to be forceful and abrupt in spreading mine.

[muggsy]

Actually far worse than the left chipping at our rights is the fact that open carry has become socially unacceptable in many if not most locations. There are of course exceptions. It's very difficult to once again program folks unaccustomed to seeing guns in the open to accept that it is ok.

Even in the old west many towns made you turn in your guns when in town.

I just don't see how we can reprogram people to accept the fact that it is ok. Even if we make them understand that it is perfectly legal they still aren't gonna be comfortable with it. They will call police, police will have to respond, a vicious circle. Those who legitimately do it like the trip hunting scenarios in certain area's again are probably gonna be ok. Those who do it to instigate and retrain (I love it when they say they are training the cops) are gonna create a scenario where the Open Carry law is gonna go away.

It's a sad deal really but it is what it is.

This thread is hanging on by a thread but I'm making the full 8 second ride. Let er buck!

Checking your guns in towns of the old west is a Hollywood myth. It didn't happen.

[Longitude Zero]

Checking your guns in towns of the old west is a Hollywood myth. It didn't happen.

Yes...No...Maybe so. Since none of us was everywhere all the time back then even if it happened one time makes it not a nyth.

[TriggerMan]

You believe what you like how you like and you carry whatever firearm you like how you like....and what might have happened if you were a single OC customer and a carload of armed robbers were inpatient? Your story could be in the Obituary section of the Atlanta paper. Something to think about.

The story says they decided to wait out the OC customers. It delayed the crime, it didn't really deter it. The police got lucky in their timing.

A single story with alternate interpretations isn't much proof.

[muggsy]

So your snide "turn tail" comments were just trolling? Use more smiley faces next time.:mad:

I wasn't trolling. I was just trying to find out where you stand. I don't go out of my way to look for trouble, but I don't run from it either. I'll stand up for your rights just as I'll stand up for mine.

[Thunder71]

Devil's Advocate:
In California that's the only way you can carry... Ever think that these people are just sick and tired of being stopped when they carry? If you couldn't carry any other way, what would you do, stop or continue and realize that you're going to be bothered by LEO from time to time? I think after a while it would get quite old.

[muggsy]

Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

There maybe no empirical proof that open carry deters crime, but I'm willing to bet that if everyone carried openly that there would be a lot less crime. The good outnumber the bad in society. It's when the good are disarmed that the evil flourishes and there is plenty of proof of that.

[Longitude Zero]

There maybe no empirical proof that open carry deters crime, but I'm willing to bet that if everyone carried openly that there would be a lot less crime. The good outnumber the bad in society. It's when the good are disarmed that the evil flourishes and there is plenty of proof of that.

Agreed on all counts.

[tv_racin_fan]

...and what might have happened if you were a single OC customer and a carload of armed robbers were inpatient? Your story could be in the Obituary section of the Atlanta paper. Something to think about.

The story says they decided to wait out the OC customers. It delayed the crime, it didn't really deter it. The police got lucky in their timing.

A single story with alternate interpretations isn't much proof.

What might have happened? A door might have fallen off an airplane passing overhead and killed everyone... a cannon ball might have come off the nearby bomb range and gone thru the door... What did happen is my concern more than what might have happened.

What might happen is that the whole point is moot. With H R 822 we might all have to live by the strictest carry laws of the nation soon. We might all suddenly find ourselves in may issue states with only the connected having the priviledge of carry. We might all suddenly find ourselves living in states where even an accidental showing will get our carry priviledge revoked forever.

Personally I think it should be up to the individual what firearm he carries and how he carries it. Some areas of the country are not really suitable for open carry while others are. I surely won't begrudge anyones style of carry or type of firearm. I attempt to simply point out that when I wish to conceal carry I prefer a handgun large enough for a comfortable grip (which currently for me is a Kahr K9 or a Ruger SP101) and when I wish to open carry so long as it is legal I will do so and I will carry whichever handgun I wish in that fashion. I may even buy myself a duster or treanchcoat so that I can carry my larger revolvers under cover. Might even get myself a shorty 12 guage and an Andrews Custom Leather firepower rig so that I can carry it. Might even have him change it up a bit and get myself a Mares Leg.

[muggsy]

Nope, right here in PA.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/10/gun-toting_soccer_mom_is_shot.html

I don't think that OC played any role in this. It sounds like a domestic situation and that she would have ended up dead regardless of how she carried.

[John222]

Thats true. But to the public it draws a parallel between open carry and gun violence.

[hss.strat]

Abusing a right is as wrong as never having it.

[1911]

I have been lurking on this list for a while and figure it is now time to "contribute"? ;)

Here is another thought. What good is a "right" if you are afraid to (or can't) use it? If OC is your right, you should be able to exercise it whenever you wish.

Granted, OC will draw attention in todays world where firearms are being suppressed daily. But that is the problem! We need to give the public a different view of firearms. Gun owners need to vote and preserve our 2nd amendment rights. A "right" is not a "right" if it cannot be execised without some type of repercussions.

There are states where it is unlawful to keep your gun in a car while you are outside of the car. These same "may issue" states have 2 different types of permits (CC and OC) Given this scenario, you hold OC permit and are coming back from a range and need to desperately stop to use a bathroom (at a local 7/11 for example). What are you to do? Hide the gun in the car and hope no one notices? Carry the gun in the open as you are legally entitled and go in to the 7/11?

Sounds like a stupid scenario but guess what, this is real. Most people will hide the gun so as not to draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately, if John Law is in the neighborhood and sees you hiding the gun in your car, you will be the star of the evening news.

Bottom line is, most gun laws are stupid and need to be removed from the books. I say most, because I believe you must go through a felony check prior to issuing a gun license. A little education won't hurt a first time permit applicant either.

When I was a youngster, it was not an issue to see a young boy walking around a neighborhood with a shotgun or 22 rifle. In my area, guns were considered tools or forms of recreation and also as a means to protect yourself.

Just my 25 cents! :)

[MO_Soldier]

I like legal open carry just so I'm not in the dog house if my covering garment fails momentarily.

I see this as the most sensible use for the laws protecting OC.
I DO believe we should have the right.
I DON'T believe that we should push the issue, because as you see from California, they're losing the rights.
My reason for those beliefs is that it is simply a tactical mistake. Like others before me have stated, and one I even quoted in this reply, OC puts a target on you. If I'm about to be the BG, I'm gonna check my surroundings: Does the clerk have a gun, do the 2 customers have guns, who's outside, are there cameras, where's my secondary exit? etc. After assessing, the guy with the gun is getting capped. That's just the truth of it.
I think the laws are important as Bawanna and others mention, for a little legal cushion for us to CC. I stand up for everyone's right to OC, but will defend that if your intentions are truly protection, then you ought to give yourself the tactical advantage.


I full well understand that when I do open carry someone might get concerned and call the law. The leo will more than likely show up and either see what it is I am carrying and comment on what it is I am doing and send me on my way out hunting or he will ask me what it is I am doing and since I will respond politely that I am going on about my business he may inform me that it is a might silly to open carry or he might just send me on about my way.

Seems to me it is all about the intent and actions of the person doing the open carrying.

It's not about that at all IMO. The focus is NOT on the OCer or their intent or actions. Like others have said, what BG OCs? The point is this...BG walks in to where you are wanting to rob the place, he's gonna shoot your @$$ before you ever have a chance because he saw you as his biggest threat. Put yourself in the BG's shoes, wouldn't you do the same thing?


Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

This is exactly what I'm talking about and that is why I quoted this reply.
It's a tactical disadvantage. Like raiding an armed assailant's home, but knocking first and saying you're coming in in 3, 2, 1...lol

[JFootin]

All valid points. But I just want to add for context that most BGs are not as smart as you are portraying them. Most of them, especially in the convenience store/bank scenario, not only open carry but enter with the gun in their hand. Many of them seem unaware of the cameras, not putting their stocking mask on until after the camera outside the entrance has recorded their face. Most of them hold their weapon sideways in gangsta fashion and don't try to use the sights at all, have almost zero knowledge of guns, and just hope it shoots when they pull the trigger. Most of them are not tactically aware of who might be armed and a threat to them. They are hyped up on adrenalin and have tunnel vision toward the teller. Most of them behave like primitive animals on instinct alone.

I agree that it is unwise to OC. But I just wanted to adjust the perception of how intelligent and analytical BGs are, or most of them at any rate.

[jlottmc]

MOsoldier, I agree with what you say here, thing is you're playing by OUR rules. Douchebags have no such rules nor any compunction about killing anyone innocent. Dave Spaulding published an article on www.lawofficer.com that talks about this very thing. Look it up and read it, makes a couple of very interesting points. Here in TX we DO have to announce on a warrant, it is what it is. Point is this, you're thinking for OUR rules of fighting and warfare, not theirs. Most times a robbery is not planned, when it is there is little to no intel gathered, just the way it is. I know what we would do should we cross over to the dark side, but that is not how these guys think.

[MO_Soldier]

I agree that it is unwise to OC. But I just wanted to adjust the perception of how intelligent and analytical BGs are, or most of them at any rate.


MOsoldier, I agree with what you say here, thing is you're playing by OUR rules. Douchebags have no such rules nor any compunction about killing anyone innocent. Dave Spaulding published an article on www.lawofficer.com (http://www.lawofficer.com) that talks about this very thing. Look it up and read it, makes a couple of very interesting points. Here in TX we DO have to announce on a warrant, it is what it is. Point is this, you're thinking for OUR rules of fighting and warfare, not theirs. Most times a robbery is not planned, when it is there is little to no intel gathered, just the way it is. I know what we would do should we cross over to the dark side, but that is not how these guys think.

I'm with you guys on most times...and for those most times I could probably have my head up my @$$ and still make it out alive after I become aware of the happenings around me.
However, I don't account for the majority ALONE...I expect the unexpected. And I don't do ANYTHING to make myself a target unless I have to, ie; dressing in dress clothes for work or wearing my military uniform etc.

So for those 1-10%(whatever you wanna guess) BGs that actually DO plan an attack, and WOULD think to shoot the armed guy first....I'll be prepared, and I'll walk away alive. That's all I care about.

And I'm not talking about just the innocent here either. I mean the armed innocent. IMO they become bigger targets than any unarmed innocent person.

[jlottmc]

Not disagreeing, in fact not weighing in at all on this, just pointing out that we don't think like they do. Personally, I look at the PRK (people's repulik of kommiefornia) as an example of what happens when the sheep get scared. I said before and I'll say again, don't spook the sheep. I have no problem with carry either way, I just don't want anyone else forcing their beliefs and fears onto me.

[tv_racin_fan]

The problem with California is those guys are making a point that it should be legal for them to be able to get a permit to carry period. In some parts of California getting a permit is like winning the lotto. It ain't as simple as applying for the permit and passing the background check.

Those guys who open carry an unloaded handgun in CA do so because while it isn't "wasn't" exactly legal it wasn't illegal. BUT in order to be allowed to carry it had to be unloaded and you could not carry ammo as well. Now to you and me that might be totally insane to carry an unloaded handgun but to some who can not otherwise carry it makes sense to bring light to their plight. That it brought light and the politicians passed a law to make it illegal is really sort of the point.

What exactly have they lost? The ability to carry an unloaded handgun right out in the open for all to see? What use exactly is that ability? Seriously think on that.. When the law is such that you can not get a permit to carry what do you do? In my opinion you bring light to your issue and hope that you can convince enough of the sheeple over to your side so that the politicians understand that in order to get elected/reelected they must do something.

As for setting myself up as a target by open carry. I might well be doing so, but isn't that MY choice to do? I know of two cases where someone other than law or security who were already targets were apparently targetted because of open carry. I know of a couple of cases where open carry apparently detterred a criminal from committing a crime on the individuals open carrying and in fact on the other people around them. IF open carry meant that someone had set themselves up as the prime target there should be hundreds and thousands of such stories to read, that there aren't is enough to convince me that it ain't the issue some think it to be.

In many cases the areas with the most crime are the same areas with the most restrictive gun laws. Kennesaw GA has a law on the books where every homeowner must own a firearm. The law was passed in protest of another community passing stricter gun laws. The area that passed the stricter gun laws had crime rates go up, Kennesaw crime rates have gone down and stayed down in an urban area where crime rates were going up. Virgin Utah apparently liked the Kennesaw Law so much they passed a similar law.

[MO_Soldier]

What exactly have they lost? The ability to carry an unloaded handgun right out in the open for all to see? What use exactly is that ability? Seriously think on that.. When the law is such that you can not get a permit to carry what do you do? In my opinion you bring light to your issue and hope that you can convince enough of the sheeple over to your side so that the politicians understand that in order to get elected/reelected they must do something.

As for setting myself up as a target by open carry. I might well be doing so, but isn't that MY choice to do? I know of two cases where someone other than law or security who were already targets were apparently targetted because of open carry. I know of a couple of cases where open carry apparently detterred a criminal from committing a crime on the individuals open carrying and in fact on the other people around them. IF open carry meant that someone had set themselves up as the prime target there should be hundreds and thousands of such stories to read, that there aren't is enough to convince me that it ain't the issue some think it to be.

In many cases the areas with the most crime are the same areas with the most restrictive gun laws. Kennesaw GA has a law on the books where every homeowner must own a firearm. The law was passed in protest of another community passing stricter gun laws. The area that passed the stricter gun laws had crime rates go up, Kennesaw crime rates have gone down and stayed down in an urban area where crime rates were going up. Virgin Utah apparently liked the Kennesaw Law so much they passed a similar law.

You're right, they haven't lost much, but the concern many have, is when the gun control activists gain momentum, how far will our right erode?

Your support for OC is based on factual events, so believable I won't even ask you for your sources. However, show me ONE instance when a CC person was targeted for CCing! I doubt you'll find one, but not having researched it, it's possible.

Your explanation of the inverse relationship between gun laws and crime is spot on!

[tv_racin_fan]

Gun control advocates have been losing momentum for quite some time. One only need check the differences in states that allow any sort of carry today and those that did so in 1986 to see that.

They have been telling the sheeple that it will be the wild west with shootouts in the streets if people are allowed to carry. They have been telling the sheeple that the blood will flow in the streets. The sheeple who bother to look can easily see for themselves that what the anti gunners have been telling them are LIES.

Crime rates have gone down in the states that allow some form of carry. Politicians have seen this for themselves and they have voted to allow some form of carry in all but one state.. and that one will get some form of carry in the next few years I am willing to bet.

IF you base your opinions off what anti gunners may or may not do then you have a serious issue because the anti gunners are always working to take the right to keep and bear away from you. They have done so since the nation was first formed and will continue to do so until the nation is nothing but a memory. They do not think rationally nor do they care what LIES they spout.

Your opinion and mine mean nothing to them in fact the truth means nothing to them. Only the feeling that the world would be a safer place without firearms matters. The fact is MAN has killed MAN with whatever he could get his mitts on since there were enough men on the planet for one man to kill another. MAN has thought up ever better tools for the killing of other men since MAN had the ability to think and reason. NOTHING you or I can do will change that. NOTHING the anti gunners can do will change that only they don't realize that fact. They think that somehow if they can just pass a law so that law abiding citizens can not aquire firearms that all will be well with the world.

Prisoners in prison who are arguably the most watched people on earth still somehow manage to aquire firearms ILLEGALLY despite there being incarcerated.

IF more people would open carry while going about their normal everyday live now and again the sheeple MIGHT see that there are far more of us out here who do carry and they MIGHT get the idea that even more people out here carrying MIGHT actually reduce crime even more.

[tv_racin_fan]

People who conceal carry have been targetted many times. NOT because they were concealed carrying specifically because if one is CONCEALLED carrying then no one around them should know they are carrying but because they were there.

I believe Mr Kleck has surmised that every year some 2.5 million people use a firearm to prevent a crime or defend themselves. As I understand even anti gunners believe it to be at least 400 thousand times.

[MO_Soldier]

People who conceal carry have been targetted many times. NOT because they were concealed carrying specifically because if one is CONCEALLED carrying then no one around them should know they are carrying but because they were there.

I believe Mr Kleck has surmised that every year some 2.5 million people use a firearm to prevent a crime or defend themselves. As I understand even anti gunners believe it to be at least 400 thousand times.

Exactly...no one should know they have a gun. You said exactly what I've been trying to say, it's a tactical advantage over open carry.

[muggsy]

Abusing a right is as wrong as never having it.

How do you abuse a right by exercising that right.

[muggsy]

I have been lurking on this list for a while and figure it is now time to "contribute"? ;)

Here is another thought. What good is a "right" if you are afraid to (or can't) use it? If OC is your right, you should be able to exercise it whenever you wish.

Granted, OC will draw attention in todays world where firearms are being suppressed daily. But that is the problem! We need to give the public a different view of firearms. Gun owners need to vote and preserve our 2nd amendment rights. A "right" is not a "right" if it cannot be execised without some type of repercussions.

There are states where it is unlawful to keep your gun in a car while you are outside of the car. These same "may issue" states have 2 different types of permits (CC and OC) Given this scenario, you hold OC permit and are coming back from a range and need to desperately stop to use a bathroom (at a local 7/11 for example). What are you to do? Hide the gun in the car and hope no one notices? Carry the gun in the open as you are legally entitled and go in to the 7/11?

Sounds like a stupid scenario but guess what, this is real. Most people will hide the gun so as not to draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately, if John Law is in the neighborhood and sees you hiding the gun in your car, you will be the star of the evening news.

Bottom line is, most gun laws are stupid and need to be removed from the books. I say most, because I believe you must go through a felony check prior to issuing a gun license. A little education won't hurt a first time permit applicant either.

When I was a youngster, it was not an issue to see a young boy walking around a neighborhood with a shotgun or 22 rifle. In my area, guns were considered tools or forms of recreation and also as a means to protect yourself.

Just my 25 cents! :)

Exactly the sentiment I would expect to hear expressed from someone calling himself 1911. You must have grown up near my neighborhood. My father used to board a streetcar with a shotgun and take it to the end of the line to hunt rabbits. Try boarding a bus with a shotgun today. You can ride shotgun with me anytime.

[tv_racin_fan]

Exactly...no one should know they have a gun. You said exactly what I've been trying to say, it's a tactical advantage over open carry.

AH it does indeed have the tactical advantage but doesn't carry any detterent value. One over the other... Which one you prefer should be up to the individual.

[tv_racin_fan]

Exactly the sentiment I would expect to hear expressed from someone calling himself 1911. You must have grown up near my neighborhood. My father used to board a streetcar with a shotgun and take it to the end of the line to hunt rabbits. Try boarding a bus with a shotgun today. You can ride shotgun with me anytime.

I never saw it but even in my day children carried guns to school to shoot either in ranges on school grounds or to hunt with after school. ( I didn't see it living in a more urban area) Talking with my wife the other day we both remarked how for some it was normal for their first auto to be a pickup truck complete with gun rack and they were prevalent in parking lots of schools across the land. Ok maybe not in New York City or Chicago but for sure in Glennville GA. Heck they didn't even worry about rolling up the windows or locking the door.

Not so many years ago I was surprised to learn that some schools still have indoor ranges in their basements and some still have shooting teams.

[muggsy]

I never saw it but even in my day children carried guns to school to shoot either in ranges on school grounds or to hunt with after school. ( I didn't see it living in a more urban area) Talking with my wife the other day we both remarked how for some it was normal for their first auto to be a pickup truck complete with gun rack and they were prevalent in parking lots of schools across the land. Ok maybe not in New York City or Chicago but for sure in Glennville GA. Heck they didn't even worry about rolling up the windows or locking the door.

Not so many years ago I was surprised to learn that some schools still have indoor ranges in their basements and some still have shooting teams.

In those days a gun was thought of as any other tool. Guns didn't have the evil connotation that they have today. People seem to have forgotten that a gun is an inanimate object and that it's men do do evil.