Is this condition normal in a K9 Elite?

[Gunthr]

I have a new one, and I love it, its a great shooter so far. A buddy who buys and sells guns a lot looked at it, and said he wouldn't have accepted this gun due to the slide having play in it.... you can move the slide side to side about 1/32". This play can best be seen and felt in the back end of the gun. He said that he feels a gun costing this much should have a precision fit, not be this loose.

Do other k9's have this amount of play in them? Would you call Kahr about this?

I don't want to overreact, but its bugging me now. Thanks for your opinions

Gunthr

[Bawanna]

It sounds perfectly normal to me. This has come up a few times in the past. I don't recall the thread to look for at the moment.

It's hard to tell exactly how much movement your talking about just verbally but they do have what many consider alot of movement. It's not a high end custom fitted 1911. That doesn't make it wrong, it's just different. And most importantly it works.

I'd certainly not panic at this point. I'll see if I can find that earlier thread. I'm sure one of the gang here will beat me to it, they are all wicked fast.

[Bawanna]

I'm coming up empty trying to find the previous thread I was thinking of.

As I recall it was talking about a PM or one of the tupperware models anyhow.

Maybe some of you other folks with better memories than I can help here or shed some light on this.

Hang loose gunthr, it's saturday morning, the cavalry will be along to help.

I'm gonna delete the similar thread in the tech section so we don't double up on this. If you don't mind. Feel free to utilize that tech section, either place is perfectly fine, just want to focus our efforts in one place at a time.

[Gunthr]

thx Bawanna - Good point about the gun working. Don't worry, I'm chillin. :-) I don't necessarily believe the slight wiggle is out of spec, just wanted to make sure.

Gunthr

[JFootin]

My CM9 doesn't move a hair's width! Of course, it is a subcompact polymer frame gun.

Bawanna, could more play be needed in the steel framed K9, maybe because steel expands and contracts more with temperature changes (just a guess)?

[gb6491]

.... you can move the slide side to side about 1/32". This play can best be seen and felt in the back end of the gun. ...
Gunthr
1/32" does seem a little much to me. How are you measuring it? The only thing I have that comes close to that kind of frame to slide play is a +20 something yrs. old Springfield Armory 1911

...That doesn't make it wrong, it's just different. And most importantly it works...

I absolutely agree with Bawanna. How's it shooting for you?
That Springfield Armory 1911 that I mentioned above is still a fine shooting and reliable gun. It'll shoot better off a rest than I can hold it; even then it's not too bad. Here's a crappy cell phone photo I took last time I had it at the range (first magazine of the day at 10 yds. standing):
http://i54.tinypic.com/if0s9j.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I'll get my K40 out after awhile and see how much it moves. I know there's some movement but as GB pointed out 1/32'' is actually alot. If that's just a guesstimate it probably isn't so bad but I can't say that is the case for sure.

Sometimes I wish we could toss these things in the transporter and zap it to each other so we can look and feel stuff (why did I just think of Angels?). It's ok Melissa, I slapped myself soundly directly on the face so hard it hurt. I feel duly punished.

Be alot easier to diagnose and make better judgements.

[JimBianchi]

I just wiggled my MK9 (bought new in 2005, maybe 4K down the pipe), it has less than 1/64 of an inch in play, very tight.

My K9 (made in 1999, 4K or more, down the pipe) has just slightly more play, but barley.

My GLOCKs have much more play and are 100% reliable.

[ripley16]

How does it shoot? That's all that matters, IMHO.

[JFootin]

A had a Jennings 22lr pistol many decades ago, and it had that kind of play in it. But it was made out of metal so soft you could scratch it with a fingernail. But it worked-most of the time.

I also owned a Beretta 22lr mini a long time ago that I could not even find the target with a bullet at 15 feet (almost as bad as jocko). Never could figure out where the bullets were going. So, I got rid of it.

[Gunthr]

thanks for the input ... I'm going to try to get a link to a short clip of the play in the slide tonight.

[Barth]

My MK40 Elite is crazy tight.
No play at all.
I still agree that how it functions is the important thing.

Actually, I've emailed technical questions to service@khar.com
and they have responded like the next business day.
(forgive me I grew up outside of LA)

Example
Hello,
I have recently bought a Kahr MK40 Elite 2003 Micro Compact K4048N
Serial # HA4223. Have replaced the guide rod with the Kahr Stainless Steel version.

Question -
How many rounds fired do you recommend before recoil spring replacement
for this model?

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

Kahr response:
Good morning. Thank you for the question. We recommend changing the recoil
spring every 1200-1500 rounds or every couple of years (whichever comes
first) if this is a carry gun. If it is a range gun only, then you may
change the recoil spring whenever failures begin to occur. I hope this
information helps.

[Gunthr]

Thanks for the info Barth. I'd be grateful if you guys would have a look at the short clip of my K9. It is poor quality but should show the range of play that I'm getting. True, my gun shoots well, and is accurate, but it is a little disconcerting to see this much play. If its this loose now, it can only get looser over time. It might be a safety issue. What do you think?

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/gunthr_2006/?action=view&current=VIDEO0062-1.mp4

[tv_racin_fan]

Doesn't appear to be much in the way of play to me at all. I'd have to check my K9 but I am sure the amount of play is very similar.

[Barth]

Doesn't appear to be much in the way of play to me at all. I'd have to check my K9 but I am sure the amount of play is very similar.

+1 That looks fine to me???

[G3709]

The amount of play of the slide of my K9 is about the same as yours, front and rear and it has about one thousand rounds through it.

[Bawanna]

I finally dug out my K40 and while it's difficult to make a real good comparison it seems to be very similar to yours. It's definitely not super tight but I wouldn't call it sloppy either.
You might send that link to your video to Kahr and see what they say about it. I suspect it's nothing to worry about but it would be nice to hear that from them.

[Barth]

You might send that link to your video to Kahr and see what they say about it. I suspect it's nothing to worry about but it would be nice to hear that from them.

+1 again with Bawanna.
Send email with video link to service@khar.com and put this to bed!
You will have your answer by Tuesday at the latest.

I love this forum for info.
But Kahr is the real Final Answer.
http://www.m8ball.com/en/ball.png

[ripley16]

I watched your video and then compared it with my K9 and I'll admit yours has a little more play in it than mine, but I have other guns that move as much or more that are all perfectly reliable. Accuracy is based on how the slide and barrel lock together, not the slide and frame. Again, the question to ask is; how does the gun shoot, is it reliable and is it accurate? IMHO, you have no problem here.

[Gunthr]

thanks guys. Its great to have this kind of feedback... I'm going to take that advice and send Kahr the clip today. I'll post their response for anyone who might be interested in this.

[GOOFA]

Gunthr... I looked at the 3 of mine and my 3 are the same. Yours definitely has more play than mine. If your Kahr is operating at 100% and your satisfied with its accuracy I just might leave well enough alone. Personally, I don't think Kahr will take care of that because its probably within their specs.

By the way, what kind of guns does your buddy sell? He must be dealing with custom 1911's or maybe he's a bit jealous. Go ahead and enjoy your new Kahr.

[Gunthr]

Gunthr... I looked at the 3 of mine and my 3 are the same. Yours definitely has more play than mine. If your Kahr is operating at 100% and your satisfied with its accuracy I just might leave well enough alone. Personally, I don't think Kahr will take care of that because its probably within their specs.

By the way, what kind of guns does your buddy sell? He must be dealing with custom 1911's or maybe he's a bit jealous. Go ahead and enjoy your new Kahr. - Goofa


I have a feeling you're right Goofa. My buddy buys and sells anything he thinks he can make money on, or personally likes... mostly rifles like AK's, SKS's and also the modern "assault type" rifles. He has a dozen or so semi auto handguns. He really isn't an expert as far as smithing is concerned, I think he just goes by what his intuition tells him a gun should feel like to him. He equates the looseness to "wear" in used guns.

For example, he finds out through contacts whenever a PD is switching over, say, from Sigs to Glocks. He will try to buy up some used Sigs, and he will handle dozens of them. He will pick the tightest ones, and reject ones that have looseness like mine. He personally expects precision in an expensive gun like the K9. He thinks that my Kahr may be over-machined.

And I'm asking myself, why can't Kahr make a precision fit K9 with all that expensive CRC machinery and all the dedicated employees there?

That said, I have reallly never felt a gun this good in my hand, that after 350 rounds hasn't missed a beat... a gun that I can repeatedly place my rounds wherever I want to, with fast, accurate followup shots. I really dig this gun, and normally when I dig something like this, I'm immune to any kind of criticism of it. But in this case, I kind of agree with my buddy, in that I would not expect this sloppiness in an expensive top of the line gun. That is just my take. It is just a little bit of a disappointment, but I can live with it if they can assure me that this is not a quality or safety issue.

[monkeyapeman]

Typically when firearms have those looser tolerances it helps with reliably cycling more types of ammunition; hollows, flat tip, ball, brass, nickle, aluminum, steel, cheap, expensive, ect...

My MK9 elite is also loose, especially when it is unloaded and de-cocked. Once you load it up with a round in the chamber and full mag it tends to tighten up considerably.

AK's are notoriously loose, but any rationale person will not argue that they are very good guns. Different strokes for different folks. Kahr's are the ****!!

[Gunthr]

Update - I immediately sent the video along with a description of the loose fit to Kahr support. I received no answer. I re-sent it every couple of days to several different email addys from the site for about a week and a half without getting a reply. I finally just called them.

I won't name names, but the support dude with the radio announcer voice was pretending to be accommodating, but he was actually condescending. He was pumping out a lot of happy horsesh*t... stuff like, "your gun is not even broken in yet - it will settle in" (I guess the implication is that a loose fit will become tighter and tighter as it breaks in?). He also used the AK-47 analogy about loose tolerances actually being a plus in that rifle. However, I pointed out this quote from the Kahr websight:

"CNC Machining

Utilizing the programming and tooling capabilities of CNC machining centers, Kahr pistols' main components are precision computer machined to the TIGHTEST UNIVERSAL TOLERANCES. Machined parts, cut EXACTLY to the engineering blueprint, assure proper assembly and peak performance of the Kahr pistol."

I respectfully explained that my Kahr is loose, not "machined to the tightest universal tolerance. (Sure, the AK is a famous, much produced battle rifle with loose tolerances that allow it to run reliably in most all conditions. However, it is also well known as being inaccurate.) I didn't want to talk about AK's. The man was rude, and when logic failed him, he simply talked over me.

I spoke to his supervisor, who was a gentleman. i told him my concern was about the safety and quality of the K9, and the lose of resale value in an expensive firearm like this. He allowed me to send the K9 back to them - on their dime, to check if the gun is within their specifications. They should receive it Tuesday after Labor Day. As I said, I will post my experience, as honestly and as objectively as I can, for any who may be interested.

Gunthr

[Gunthr]

Here is the followup, as promised:

I got my K-9 back from Kahr today. (I appreciated the fast turn-around.)

Inside the box with the gun was a certification that the gun was inspected and fired, and found to be within "factory spec."

To me, this determination does not quite square with the statement on the Kahr website regarding their CNC machining:

"CNC Machining

Utilizing the programming and tooling capabilities of CNC machining centers, Kahr pistols' main components are precision computer machined to the tightest universal tolerances. Machined parts, cut exactly to the engineering blueprint, assure proper assembly and peak performance of the Kahr pistol."


So... I still have my disappointed expectation of a tight gun. Maybe I misunderstand the above statement. But anyway, other than that, the gun is a sweet, accurate shooter, and that is something. I'm going to take it for what it is. And now I have the the answer to my question, and the documentation to prove it, that this condition is "normal" - if I ever want to sell it for some reason.

Gunthr

[desert k9]

IMHO as long as it performs/functions to your expectations (and from my own experience as well as others Kahrs generally exceed the expectations), perceived "tightness" of components is irrelevant.

[Gunthr]

IMHO as long as it performs/functions to your expectations (and from my own experience as well as others Kahrs generally exceed the expectations), perceived "tightness" of components is irrelevant. - desert K9

Well, thanks for your take, desertK9, but we each have our own take on things. I was referring to the amount of play between my slide and frame. This is not something that is subjective. The allowable movement is measured in the Kahr factory. I was expecting a tight fitting, precision piece - as advertised on the website. I was disappointed in the amount of play and I think it can hurt re-sale value. That is relevant to me. I wouldn't care if the whole world had the opposite opinion. I'm immune to group-think. :yo: