CM9 slide heldup on the back of the shell

[Russ]

The slide fails to chamber about 2 in 50 shells. The slide stops on the back of the shell.

I have shot 400 rds so the brealin should not be an issue.

Has anyone had this happen? If yes, what is the problem? I admit it could be me because it only occurs 2 out 50 shots, but it is consistently doing it.

[jocko]

at what round is is doing it in the magazine?? example, like round 2 or 3 etc..

you might wantto go to the kahr tech section ahd hit on the propper prepping thread and check out the magazine catch thing. It is easy to correct u just gotta know wha tto do. This thread should also help u alot to.

a good way to test if it could be u, is to let another good shooter try the gun for 50 rounds and see what results he gets. If he duplicates, then it is not you, ...U just need to eliminate the possables first..

[mr surveyor]

what ammunition are you using?

[Quickdraw]

This sounds like the node dive issue again. Is it a 6 or 7 round magazine? Is it after the 1'st or 2'nd shot from a full magazine?

[Russ]

I am using Federal 115 gr fmj. It also did it with 124 gr+p Gold Dot. (I only fired 7 rds due to the cost.)

I am using the 6 round clip that came with the cm9.

I am not sure which round it is catching on. It is never the last rd. I called Kahr and they sent me another recoil spring, but before I got the spring I called them again when the slide got help up on Gold Dot and they asked me to send it in. It has been a week and they told me it will most likely be another week due to a large number of 380s they are working on.

At first they thought I was pressing slightly on the mag release when firing. I paid extra attention not to tough the button when I fired the weapon and it still did it consistently one to two times for every 50 rds.

I wonder if I am pushing up on the bottom of the mag when firing. Kahr thinks it may be operator error because the firearm is working 98% of the time.

[Quickdraw]

There sure seems to be a bunch of operators having errors then. The 6 round mags have been much better than the sever rounders but some people, myself included, have had a few issues. Bunches of helpful information here with some resolutions. My CM9 is getting much better after some work and I don't mind tweeking but some people aren't nearly as casual as I am. When this little pistol is running it sure is fun.

I may just try pushing up on the mag to duplicate that issue.

[Rainman48314]

I am using Federal 115 gr fmj. It also did it with 124 gr+p Gold Dot. (I only fired 7 rds due to the cost.)

I am using the 6 round clip that came with the cm9.

I am not sure which round it is catching on. It is never the last rd. I called Kahr and they sent me another recoil spring, but before I got the spring I called them again when the slide got help up on Gold Dot and they asked me to send it in. It has been a week and they told me it will most likely be another week due to a large number of 380s they are working on.

At first they thought I was pressing slightly on the mag release when firing. I paid extra attention not to tough the button when I fired the weapon and it still did it consistently one to two times for every 50 rds.

I wonder if I am pushing up on the bottom of the mag when firing. Kahr thinks it may be operator error because the firearm is working 98% of the time.Perhaps it's the use of a clip instead of a magazine? Just saying...and just pulling your chain a litle.

[wyntrout]

Actually, it sounds like the "Bevel"... or the lack of one, but that's not something the 9mm is prone to do.

When you say the slide stops on the back of the cartridge, check the third photo and see if this is what you're seeing.

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1464&highlight=bevel&page=2

My PM9(first 2 pix) had plenty of room so this didn't happen, but it pretty tight in the PM45.

Wynn:)


(http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1464&highlight=bevel&page=2)

[TucsonMTB]

Hopefully, when the gun comes back from Kahr CS, it will not have any problems. Until then, it is hard to guess about what might have been happening before Kahr asked you to let them work on the pistol. ;)

[jocko]

really no sense in discussing it anymore, the gun is in the mail. kahr will get it right, I think this forumj couldhave helped alot also, just my 2 cents. When a gun shoot 48 times out of 50 correctly it makes me wonder..

[Russ]

Thanks for the replys. I looked at the pics Wynn. Yes it looks like those pics. I will post what Kahr finds out. Jocko, 48 out of 50 shots working make me wonder if it is my error. If it is I need to know what I am doing wrong. Carrying concealed I have got to feel 100% confident if I pull the trigger is will go bang and chamber the next shell. Jacko thanks for the advise having another good shooter (I consider myself very average thanks for the complement) shoot 50 rds. That will be my next step if Kahr tells me everything is ok. I hope they find something so I will have an answer.
Thanks again for all your advise. I really like my Kahr as a pocket concealed 9mm.

[jocko]

we are here to help if possable. letting another good shooter shoot the gun and if they can duplicate what your having then u have eliminated one possability. Trust me I was not referring to you as a bad shooter, One has to start somewhere to eliminate all the possasbles and shooter error is certainly one of the possable with these small ass guns...

100% reliability has to be ur goal but alway keep in mind that you can shoot 1000 perfect rounds out of your gun and you can feel it is good to go and the very next round can be a malfunction. This is the nature of the beast with guns. Sh-t happens.

[wyntrout]

If it turns out to be a "stripper-bevel" thing, that will be a first for 9mm's, I think. My PM9 had loads of room behind the cartridge/magazine, unlike the cramped-for-space PM45.

I think Kahr has spread itself too thin with all of the "compliance models" and new models of guns, like the CM line. Something is giving... the QC???:eek:

Wynn:)

[Russ]

Picked up my CM9 after Kahr repaired it today. The slide was stopping on the back of the shell about two times in 50 shots.

According to the work order, Kahr "polished the feed ramp, slide stop, extractor. Replaced recoil spring." (I am not sure what all that means)

The magazine slides in and out with ease. I wish I had my second magazine when I sent the gun back for repair. The second magazine does not slide in and out as easily. When I press the release buttom the magazine they worked on drops right out. The second magazine drops about an inch when you press the release button and stops. It is also tight when you push it into the hand grip

Any suggestions for the second magazine?


I will report after I go to the range.

Russ

[TucsonMTB]

Any suggestions for the second magazine?
Send it back to the supplier.

Alternatively, depending on you skills and enthusiasm, measure the two magazines and squeeze the one that sticks in you vise, being careful to prevent surface damage, until it matches the one that works the way you like.

Personally, I would just return it.


I will report after I go to the range.

Russ
Best of luck! From their work description, Kahr worked on (or replaced) all the things most likely to contribute to the problem.

We will be watching for your report. :)

[jocko]

u might try givng that magazine a good polishing with some car wax on the outside to see if that helps any, also some shooting and it might just work better for you. Mine has never fully dropped in all the time I have owned it and personally for me, I like it that way. It sure in hell ain't gonna flop on the ground if I accidently hit the magazine release either. I think we put to much emphasis on this mag drop thing, but its your gun and if you want to spend the time and money sending back magazines that stick, eventulaly you will get one that drops freely, or like tucson stated, just compress the top portion of the magazine a tad . Or just shoot it like u stole it.

[hdsteve69]

I agree with you jocko on the mag drop thing. If you do any police training they teach you how to do a tactical reload and the mag never hits the ground.

[jocko]

I agree with you jocko on the mag drop thing. If you do any police training they teach you how to do a tactical reload and the mag never hits the ground.

any police training, can u explain the tactical reload thing alittle more. always wanted to learn something new every day. thanks

[Ressom]

I had to pinch the tops of my magazines to get them to drop free (remove the internals first). I like it that way better because all my other guns drop free. I don't want to employ a new technique for the Kahr.

[Quickdraw]

In a tactical reload the mag shouldn't hit the ground, it should be retained. Tactical reloads shouldn't be done until your world is somewhat safe. If it's tactical then the mag in the pistols is still carrying rounds that you may need later if the gun fight continues. The whole purpose is to get your pistol back to a fully loaded condition. Emergency reloads are a different animal. The pistol has run empty which is what constitutes the emergency. You never want to retain an empty magazine. That takes too much time and may get it confused with a loaded mag. In an emergency time is critical. I don't drop the empty mag till the loaded mag is in my hand and ready to slide into the magwell. By the time the empty hits the floor the new mag is sent home and ready to go.

[wyntrout]

That's why tubular magazines (not the load from the front after removing the follower kind) are good... you can stick a few more rounds in there on the run or whatever and not run out.... Thinking of shotguns and lever actions... semi-autos with loading ports for tubes.
It's definitely a good idea to NOT wait until the magazine is empty and you really need more shots... especially if there's gonna be a telltale CLICK for the BG to rush you.:eek:

Wynn:)

[Russ]

Took my cm9 to the range today. Worked flawlessly using 115 gr Federal until I hit 90 rounds. The slide got Hung up twice. I had Kahr install Trilicon sights installed. The front sight nearly fell off after 100 rounds. When I took it apart one screw was missing and the second was loose. I tried to tighten but it would not snug.

[TucsonMTB]

Took my cm9 to the range today. Worked flawlessly using 115 gr Federal until I hit 90 rounds. The slide got Hung up twice. I had Kahr install Trilicon sights installed. The front sight nearly fell off after 100 rounds. When I took it apart one screw was missing and the second was loose. I tried to tighten but it would not snug.
Although there are two posts positioning the front sight, only one gets a screw installed. There's just no way to reach the other post to tighten a screw, so nothing is missing.

That the one screw that holds everything is apparently stripped and not tight to begin with, is an issue that Kahr should handle cheerfully, with shipping on their dime.

If by "The slide got Hung up twice." you mean the slide did not go into battery, that is did not fully cycle the action closed, it could still need some more breaking in, but past 200 rounds, that's unusual. Kahr may have some wisdom to offer when you tell them they get to do the front sight over. :rolleyes:

Really sorry to hear of your problems. Best of luck!

[Russ]

Thanks Tucson. I bet a dollar the screw for the front night sight was stripped when it was shipped back.

I would be curious if anyone shooting a CM9/PM9 has had trouble with the bullet not chambering after 90 rounds fired between cleaning. Does the spent gun powder gunk up such a small gun? I have never owned a small firearm so I have no idea the tolerance for gun powder buildup with a small gun. I was so excited when I finished the first box of Federal 115 gr shells without the slide getting hung up on the back of the shell (it was a first) but it makes me wonder when I hit 90 rounds when two FTF occured almost back to back if it was gunk buildup.

I have shot 500 rounds through the gun now, but Kahr replaced the recoil spring at 400 rounds when I sent it back for repair a few weeks ago. Does a new recoil spring mean another 200 round brake in? I hope not especially when they tell you to replace the spring every 1,000 - 1,200 rounds.

The front night sight nearly coming off bothers me. I paid Kahr to install so obviously I am going to send it back to be fixed. I am going to ask them if they can put loctite on the screw holding the front sight. Thanks Russ

[TucsonMTB]

Thanks Tucson. I bet a dollar the screw for the front night sight was stripped when it was shipped back.

I would be curious if anyone shooting a CM9/PM9 has had trouble with the bullet not chambering after 90 rounds fired between cleaning. Does the spent gun powder gunk up such a small gun? I have never owned a small firearm so I have no idea the tolerance for gun powder buildup with a small gun. I was so excited when I finished the first box of Federal 115 gr shells without the slide getting hung up on the back of the shell (it was a first) but it makes me wonder when I hit 90 rounds when two FTF occured almost back to back if it was gunk buildup.

I have shot 500 rounds through the gun now, but Kahr replaced the recoil spring at 400 rounds when I sent it back for repair a few weeks ago. Does a new recoil spring mean another 200 round brake in? I hope not especially when they tell you to replace the spring every 1,000 - 1,200 rounds.

The front night sight nearly coming off bothers me. I paid Kahr to install so obviously I am going to send it back to be fixed. I am going to ask them if they can put loctite on the screw holding the front sight. Thanks Russ
Yep! I agree that whoever installed the sights blew it. Using LocTite should be standard procedure. Stripping the screw should not be. ;)

A tight chamber that is sensitive to dirt build-up seems likely to me too. With all of the rounds already through your gun, it probably won't wear in any more by itself. If this were a Kimber with this behavior, your repair tag would have included "reamed chamber" almost for sure. Kahr should probably just drop in a new barrel. That's more their style. But, let them figure it out. They will eventually.

And, you are correct that replacing the recoil spring does NOT require further break-in for reliability. It might be a little hard to rack until the spring takes a set after a few rounds, but that's about it.

Hopefully, Kahr will give your gun to a more experienced technician the next time they work on it. If not, you can keep sending it in until they get it right. Sooner would be better than later, but if they are covering shipping and you are patient enough, persistence will win out. :)

[Ressom]

Probably not gunk after only 90 rounds.

Are you chambering the first round by releasing the slide stop lever as stated in the manual?

[jocko]

Russ> I would not consider 2 ftf as a tight chamber. You can certainly polish that chamber yourself even and help it some to. Chambers don't foul up like u would think either, You might just have had a quirk. Anew recoil spring requires no rounds break in, no doubt the kahr tech messed up the front sight or he just forgot to locktite it . The threads might not be stripped even but just needng locktite. Only one screw holds that sight in, all that isnecessary to, if done correctly..

Personaly IMO there isnot5hing wrong with ur kahr, other than maybe the shooter and gun itself have not yet got to know each other well enough to make it reliable. It takes gun and shooter both to produce the bang thing every time.

I am assuming you have seen the exce3llent kahr lube cvhart on the kahr tech section.

[Russ]

Ressom, I know I should use the slide stop to chamber the first. I have not been 100 percent faithful kind of like flossing my teeth. Thanks for reminding me of my repsonsibility. I can't remember if I failed to use the slide stop when I encountered the two ftc. I think I am going to head back to the range today and pop 100 rounds. I plan to call Kahr Moday regarding the front night sight coming loose. I would like to know before I call if the failure to chamber is behind me and all I need to worry about is the front night sight.

Jacko, thanks I have read the lube report. I have not done the 600 sand paper, but I have done the other items.

Tucson, thanks for letting me know that a new recoil springs does not start over the break in process.

Kahr must have a nice profit margin for them to be able to make all these repairs and shipping costs on their dime. It would be intersting to see how many go back for warranty repairs.

I really enjoy pocket carrying the CM9 with a super fly holster. I hope eventually I can get past these issues and feel 100 percent confident with my weapon in a self defense situation. When I was looking at a concealed firearm I shot the Kimber Solo and it was a nightmare. FTC every other round. You cannot shoot 115 grain period from the Kimber solo. I wanted a concealed that could shoot the cheap stuff for target practice. If the Kimber requires the expensive stuff to target practice what is the point? If your going to spend around a buck a shot to target practice the Kimber you may as well get a 45 ACP for concealment. Regards, Russ

[JFootin]

MidwayUSA has the Super Fly on sale for $24.99 -
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=116791

[Ressom]

Russ, just think of how Bad Ass you look when you chamber that gun with one hand... only wimpy guys need two hands to get that round in! :D

[Russ]

Ressom I really looked bad when my front night sight flew off at the range today. Looks like a phone call to Kahr Monday is in order.

Good news I shot 100 rounds of Winchester 115 gr with no FTC. ( I was determined to get off 100 rounds. I shot the last 20 without the front sight) That is a first getting off 100 rounds with no FTC. I made sure I chambered using the slide release. Maybe that was the problem all along. Thanks for that helpful reminder Resson. Let us hope FTC is behind me.

Bothers me the sight I paid Kahr $40 bucks to install fell off. (Trilicon $80 + $40 labor) I looked all over for the front sight at the range with no luck. One bright spot Kahr wont try and reuse the sight they stripped the thread installing. I am going to insist they loctite the one screw holding the front sight. Too bad you can't get the second screw on the sight. I thought of all kinds of ways of bending a small phillips screw driver 90 degrees so I could fasten that second hard to reach screw to the sight.

FFootin, $24.99 for a super fly is a great deal. I bought mine for $34.99 at Amazon. The supr fly comes with a velcro attaced flap to ensure no printing.. Only down side it is harder to grab the butt of the gun with the extra flap covering the firearm but it is velcro so you can remove if you don't like the flap. Take care, I will provide an update when I test the new night sight after it is installed. Russ

[CJB]

I really looked bad when my front night sight flew off at the range today

Hell... I almost wish they'd make a sightless Kahr. Or a guttersnipe one.

Do get that sight replaced tho!~

[TucsonMTB]

Hell... I almost wish they'd make a sightless Kahr. Or a guttersnipe one.

Do get that sight replaced tho!~
Apparently, you're not the only one with that desire.

http://kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4197&d=1313421097

This gun is for sale in our want ads section and billed as a Kahr Factory Custom.

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8042

The possible bad news, if you are looking for a 9mm, is that this one is a PM40.

[JFootin]

Hell... I almost wish they'd make a sightless Kahr. Or a guttersnipe one.

Do get that sight replaced tho!~

This helps me not feel so bad about the stock plastic front sight on my CM9. :cool:

[Ressom]

That is awesome that you had no problems with the feeding. Also cool that you continued on even without the front sight!

This is my first Kahr and I'm not all that enthused about having to drop the slide with the slide stop, but that is what Kahr recommends. I come from the world of Glock where it is the exact opposite. Using the standard slide stop it can take a lot of effort to drop the slide. Instead you slingshot the slide to get it loaded (and I think that is what Glock recommends).

There is a modification to the Kahr magazine followers (that is documented in a thread here) that will allow the slighshot method without feeding problems. I may investigate it after I get a few hundred more rounds through.

[JFootin]

That is awesome that you had no problems with the feeding. Also cool that you continued on even without the front sight!

This is my first Kahr and I'm not all that enthused about having to drop the slide with the slide stop, but that is what Kahr recommends. I come from the world of Glock where it is the exact opposite. Using the standard slide stop it can take a lot of effort to drop the slide. Instead you slingshot the slide to get it loaded (and I think that is what Glock recommends).

There is a modification to the Kahr magazine followers (that is documented in a thread here) that will allow the slighshot method without feeding problems. I may investigate it after I get a few hundred more rounds through.

No mod needed. If you have strong hands and slide your hand off the slide in a rearward direction when it gets ALL the way back, you won't have any problem. But don't get lazy about getting the slide ALL the way back, and don't ride it forward with your hand.

[Ressom]

I got the front Trijicon sight from Kahr on Saturday and installed it on my CM9. I took it out yesterday and put 200 rounds through it and it is still on there!

I made sure to remove any remaining plastic left on the slide after removing the old sight. Also I sprayed gun scrubber on the screw (man that thing is tiny). I used a dab of blue loctite on the screw.

I'll admit after reading your post about loosing the sight I went back and put some more blue loctite around the sight and let is soak in a minute and cleaned the excess. I was carefull to not get any on the white.

[Scoundrel]

No mod needed. If you have strong hands and slide your hand off the slide in a rearward direction when it gets ALL the way back, you won't have any problem. But don't get lazy about getting the slide ALL the way back, and don't ride it forward with your hand.

Russ, sorry to hear about the feed problems. I know that, reading the forums, one can get the idea that a LOT of these guns malfunction. But there is a concentration of malfunctions on the forums because a lot of folks don't go on the forums to say that their guns work perfectly.

So here is one person weighing in to say that, with the notable exception of a crappy 7-round magazine, my CM9 worked great! Now I'm going to ruin it by saying that most of my mags don't drop smoothly out of the gun, so I will probably pinch them.

x2 on what JFootin says about the slingshot. This was reinforced to me by a trainer in a hands-on live fire course I took, and again today by a video I watched on personal defense training. The idea is two-fold:

1. When you have multiple guns, and their controls are in different places, you don't want to have to remember or figure out which gun you're holding and what to do. You want "muscle memory" to kick in and make it automatic for you.

2. When you're in a critical situation, you lose fine motor control to some extent. Adrenaline hits you and your hands are shaking. Maybe you're scared, or maybe not - but you're shaking anyway. Also, your hands are slippery with sweat (fight or flight response). You can fumble with the release lever, or you can grab the top of the slide and give it a good yank. Which one sounds more likely to work when you're in a bad situation?

One thing they taught in the class is that if your slide is tight or you seem to have trouble doing the slingshot in practice, try something different: Instead of trying to PULL the slide back with your "weak" hand (the one not holding the grip), instead try holding the slide in place with your weak hand while you shove the gun forward with your strong hand. It made a difference to a couple of guys in the hands-on class with me. They had brand new guns (not even broken in, had never fired them), and the springs were really stiff. They were getting feed jams when racking the slide, and this approach fixed that problem for them.

My CM9 is pretty stiff, and a bit difficult to rack because of its size, but it slingshots OK without doing the follower mod.

I did the slingshot follower mod on two of my magazines, and with that mod plus the fact that my CM9 is all broken in, I can now let the slide down slowly without jamming when I use those magazines. I'll be doing the others soon. It's a pretty low risk mod. If you do it, then take your mags to the range and run 50 rounds through each to make sure everything's still cool, then you can have good confidence regarding your magazines and your feed issues.

[Russ]

I appreciate everyone's comments. Jfootin I hope I don't miss the old lego sights. Kahr emailed me a label today. I shipped back just the slid. I was not expecting Kahr to act so quick. I was at work with my concealed less sight. I field stripped and now I have a pocket full of gun parts heading home. I will let you know how the reinstall of the sight does. Russ

[Russ]

Great news I got my cm9 slide back from Kahr today after they installed the second front night sight after the first one fell off after 100 rounds. I sure hope the bugs have been worked out. This is the second time I have sent my gun back to Kahr. The first time the slide was stopping on the back of the shell about 2 times out of 100

[TucsonMTB]

Cool! Fingers crossed . . . waiting for good news from your next range session. :)

[wyntrout]

For CCW, the Kahr should be carried with a round in the chamber. Most malfunctions occur trying to get a round into the chamber. In the "heat of battle" with adrenaline rush, tunnel vision, and loss of fine motor skills, the last thing I want to worry about is getting that first round into the chamber ready to fire!
I don't care how much you train or if you can rack the the slide quickly, you won't always have the luxury of two hands... you may start out with an injury, or more likely, be fending off a physical attack and trying to draw and fire with ONE hand. That second hand may never be free for racking the slide! In which case, you just have a "rock" in a knife or gunfight! :eek:

YMMV and JMHO, but I don't want to leave to chance having a round in the chamber... without one, it AIN"T LOADED!

Wynn:)

[TucsonMTB]

For CCW, the Kahr should be carried with a round in the chamber. Most malfunctions occur trying to get a round into the chamber. In the "heat of battle" with adrenaline rush, tunnel vision, and loss of fine motor skills, the last thing I want to worry about is getting that first round into the chamber ready to fire!
I don't care how much you train or if you can rack the the slide quickly, you won't always have the luxury of two hands... you may start out with an injury, or more likely, be fending off a physical attack and trying to draw and fire with ONE hand. That second hand may never be free for racking the slide! In which case, you just have a "rock" in a knife or gunfight! :eek:

YMMV and JMHO, but I don't want to leave to chance having a round in the chamber... without one, it AIN"T LOADED!

Wynn:)
+1 . . . Emergencies don't usually allow extra time for anything. You will be using all of your spare cycles trying to figure out what is happening and how to respond. Listen to Wynn.

[Russ]

I know this is off the subject of the thread I created, but I wanted to put my two cents in regarding carrying with a shell chambered. When my CM9 was not in the shop I always carried chambered. My wife asked me just this morning on our 24th anniversary if I pack loaded at work. I informed my wife that an empty gun is a very expensive rock in a self defense situation. I must admit it made me feel a little uncomfortable packing chambered at first so for the first few days I racked my gun without a shell and packed and at the end of the day I would pull the trigger in a safe manner to hear the click. After a few days of doing that I had the confidence that the gun was safe to pack. I know the police pack chambered including their backup guns and they are more active during the day than I am and I don't read about an excessive amount of accidental discharges and when you do it most always comes back to stupidity on the officers part.

I have young children running in and out our home so I invested in a Gunvault quick no look access that I store my loaded and chambered handguns when not packing on my night stand. (My wife and I are the only ones with the combo) I also invested in a second magazine for my CM9 that I rotate every two weeks. I do that to extend the life of the spring.

I agree in a the heat of the moment you fo loose fine motor skills. That is why trained police officers in gun battles miss more than they hit. Recently, we had a Utah Highway patrol officer get involved in a closeup gun battle. When I say closeup I mean he had the bad guys car pinned up against a cement barrier on the freeway and the bad guy never exited his car and during the shootoput the officer emptied his glock and opened his trunk and finished off the gun battle with his rifle. In all he shot 33 rounds at the bad guy and most of the rounds missed. This is a trained person who spends hours at the range and look what happened to his fine motor skills in the heat of the moment. I bet he did not even take the time to aim. Most all the gun fights I read about the miss rate for cops is 90 percent. That is another reason why I would always carry chambered. If I am going to miss 90 percent I will not have the extra second it takes to chamber.

Sorry for the novel, but reality is if anyone of us are every faced with a life or death situtation every second we are shooting will increase the chances we will get shot.