View Full Version : Range Report - PM45
lliden
08-15-2011, 11:20 AM
Hi Folks. First post, new member. I just purchased a new PM45, based on my positive experiences with my PM9. I put 350 rounds thru it this weekend, and here's my report:
1. It packs a wallop! More recoil/movement than the PM9. Wore me out shooting 350 rounds, combination of 230 grain FMJ, 230 grain hollowpoints, etc. In fact, the rear left corner of the frame, that fits in the web between your thumb and forefinger, battered the initial knuckle of my thumb. Had to put a bandage there after about 200 rounds. I'll have to figure out a slightly different hold, so that corner doesn't keep rubbing. I sanded it down a little, but it will still whack my knuckle.
2. Reliability: In the first 200 rounds with FMJ, I had 3 failures. One failure to extract, and 2 failures to chamber. All within the first 50 rounds. After that, the FMJ rounds fed flawlessly.
The hollow-points were a different matter, however:
- Hornady TAP 230 grain rounds won't chamber. There is no real leade in the barrel, so this long 230 grain hollowpoint contacts the polygonal rifling before the round can fully chamber. Net: slide does not fully lock and the gun won't fire. One round got stuck in this position, and I could not cycle the slide to remove it. Had to hold the slide and really WHACK the frame forward with my hand to free it. I guess I'll use all my TAP ammo in my other 45s.
- Speer Gold Dot 230 grain fed better, but not 100%. Their different shape doesn't contact the rifling too soon, but they will periodically touch the slide stop and push it out slightly. Similar result, gun won't fire.
- Remington (green box) 230 grain hollow point seem to do the same, but more frequently. Won't buy any more of these.
I talked to Rich at Kahr, and he indicated that the PM45 was really designed for FMJ ammunition. After some discussion, he agreed that the smaller 185 grain hollow points would probably feed more reliably than 230 grain hollow points. I have some Corbon on order, will let you know how that works. I really want to carry hollow points for my self defense loads.
3. Accuracy: I was VERY impressed with how accurate this little gun is. Much more accurate than my PM9. From 21-30 feet, it consistently shot to point of aim with all ammo. By the end of the session, I had a single 3-inch hole from all 350 rounds. All shooting was done off-hand. Some with a two-hand hold, some one-handed.
4. Feel: The trigger is smooth. In fact, it feels like a nice S&W L-frame pull, but perhaps lighter. The pull is looong, and the reset is loooong too. So follow-up shots are not as quick as with a Glock or Springfield XDM. And for sure it doesn't shoot as fast as my 1911s.
The textured of the grip is pretty aggressive, but I like that. The night sights are nice and vivid, and the sight picture in outdoor light is crisp. My only issue is where the back left corner of the frame whacks my thumb knuckle.
But you can't beat it's concealability. The PM45 fits all my PM9 holsters, sot that will save me some $$ too.
Next step is to find a self defense round that feeds reliably. I'm looking forward to carrying something this small but in such a large caliber.
Let me know if you have any recommendations for self defense ammo...
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 11:29 AM
My PM45 eats Speer Gold Dots without issue. Maybe it will improve on it's own.
I do not agree with Rich at Kahr that the PM45 was designed for FMJ only. That is absolutely insane. I'd not spread that around, pure foolishness.
You might try Winchester SXT, it has a pretty forgiving bullet shape and works well in mine also. I still run the Gold Dot 100% of the time and I use only the 230 grain. Bricks for me, not pebbles.
I'm glad your is working well for you in most other respects. It is a great little gun and well worth a little effort to make it work for ya. Nothing compares in the size weight ratio.
wyntrout
08-15-2011, 11:57 AM
Ditto, Bawanna'. I carry with Gold Dot Short Barrel 230-grainers. I shoot nothing but 230-gr in my .45's... what they were designed for.
You might touch up the slide lock actuator a bit with sandpaper/polisher, and polish the throat of the chamber and the feed ramp.
For the cheese grater grip... I tamed mine with the bike tube sleeve... quick, cheap, and it works great, without detracting from the gun's looks.
350 of anything but .22 will cause sensitive areas, but the .45 can get tiring or painful after a few hundred. I usually limit my .45 to 200 or 250... it just goes so quickly, but only hurts my pocketbook!:D
One area that used to bother me was the magazine release button, but I cover my right thumb with my left thumb and have no problems at all... other than having to stop to reload after my 6 Kahr and half dozen or so Officers model 1911 mags that I'm always testing, are emptied.
Welcome to the forum and Happy Shooting your "Boomer".
Wynn:)
jocko
08-15-2011, 12:03 PM
My PM45 eats Speer Gold Dots without issue. Maybe it will improve on it's own.
I do not agree with Rich at Kahr that the PM45 was designed for FMJ only. That is absolutely insane. I'd not spread that around, pure foolishness.
You might try Winchester SXT, it has a pretty forgiving bullet shape and works well in mine also. I still run the Gold Dot 100% of the time and I use only the 230 grain. Bricks for me, not pebbles.
I'm glad your is working well for you in most other respects. It is a great little gun and well worth a little effort to make it work for ya. Nothing compares in the size weight ratio.
bawanna we tend to get some pretty strange sh-t from inside kahr people, who basically IMO can't even zip up their pants without catching some thing in the zipper. That has to be the dummest statement I have heard in a long time..
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 12:08 PM
bawanna we tend to get some pretty strange sh-t from inside kahr people, who basically IMO can't even zip up their pants without catching some thing in the zipper. That has to be the dummest statement I have heard in a long time..
Agreed, if I could hear I'd call him and tell him to think before he lets his vocal cords run rampant without control. I know it happens to me alot so I can't fault him but learn from this.
I think it happens when one tries to sound like he knows more than he really does and kind of fakes it. Maybe rushed, who knows. Definitely not anywhere close to the mark, that's for sure.
lliden
08-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Thanks for your replies, fellas. I'll take a peek at the slide stop, and see if any "tweeking" is in order there. I don't have problems with the Gold Dot 230 grain round feeding...just interfering with the slide stop. And I'll let you know my experience with any 185-grain rounds I buy.
Great idea on the bike tube. :-)
jocko
08-15-2011, 12:28 PM
Agreed, if I could hear I'd call him and tell him to think before he lets his vocal cords run rampant without control. I know it happens to me alot so I can't fault him but learn from this.
I think it happens when one tries to sound like he knows more than he really does and kind of fakes it. Maybe rushed, who knows. Definitely not anywhere close to the mark, that's for sure.
to fokking kind to DI=KHEADS!!!:target: THATS LIKE SAYING IF YOU GET A FISH HEAD in the mail it is the same as a horsehead. and as u know that is just b.s..
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 12:45 PM
Thanks for your replies, fellas. I'll take a peek at the slide stop, and see if any "tweeking" is in order there. I don't have problems with the Gold Dot 230 grain round feeding...just interfering with the slide stop. And I'll let you know my experience with any 185-grain rounds I buy.
Great idea on the bike tube. :-)
The bike tube works really well. I went bike tube, then Hogue. When I put a CTC laser on (thanks again Phooey), it interfered with the Hogue so I went back to the bike tube, works fine.
Another option I intend to try is the qwikgrip, nicest looking rubber grip I've seen. As soon as they get to where they take a CC or paypal (not that I like paypal much) I'll be ordering one for my PM45.
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 12:48 PM
to fokking kind to DI=KHEADS!!!:target: THATS LIKE SAYING IF YOU GET A FISH HEAD in the mail it is the same as a horsehead. and as u know that is just b.s..
I hear that alot, it's a pretty common accusation. I try to be mean and hateful, I really do but it just don't work too good for me. Been a door mat all my life, too late to change now.
What if Rich @ Kahr wants to be my friend? Wouldn't do to call him and call him dumb and stupid, this wouldn't be a good way to start a relationship ya know? Man can't have too many friends.
jocko
08-15-2011, 12:53 PM
have u tried parting the waters lately??? Friends don't let friends vbuy kel teks--humm wonder where I read that at?????
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 01:33 PM
have u tried parting the waters lately??? Friends don't let friends vbuy kel teks--humm wonder where I read that at?????
I have kibashed a couple kt purchases in a nick of time. Just couldn't allow it to happen. They really weren't even friends, just the right thing to do.
If anyone carries these leave the flame throwers in the closet, they serve a purpose and some like em, just not for me and even though I'm not a rich man I can surely afford "better stuff".
I'm not tried the water parting recently, maybe I'll go down to the river at lunch and give it a go. Only a couple minutes away.
TheTman
08-15-2011, 02:04 PM
Makes me wonder what kind of chowderheads Kahr is hiring lately, I think they are in deep sheet about some felon they hired stealing a gun, Then there seemed to be a rash of CW45 problems. Now this guy saying a gun obviously designed for SD, is designed for FMJ? When did they get the military contract the demands FMJ? Sounds like someone is full of bull puckey to me.
At least the P380 problems seem to be on the decline, or else people aren't buying them.
Bawanna
08-15-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm reluctant to toss out the whole barrel for one bad apple. And I don't think he's bad really. I think the best of the best occasionally slip up and make a statement that is so totally absurd that its beyond comprehension. I suspect that's what happened here.
I'm sure Rich is a stand up guy that just goofed. Or maybe there was something lost in the translation that we're unaware of too.
Far as the felon on the payroll, that could happen anywhere pretty easily too. Makes me sick that Kahr had to pay that money (if they really did) to the Brady folks. How communist is that?
The sad part of this whole deal is comments like the FMJ deal get on the internet and spread like wild fire and many will take it as gospel, Kahr said it, it must be true right? So everyone will think I need FMJ's for my Kahr.
Hope this was nipped in the bud, but I'm sure there was some damage done obviously.
yqtszhj
08-15-2011, 04:42 PM
Welcome to the Forum. The best part about being here is watching Bawanna and Jocko go back and forth. The next best thing is all the good info and helpful folks if you have a question. You don't even have to post it in the right area. You'll get an answer anyway
billpocz
08-16-2011, 10:49 AM
I enjoy my PM45 far more than I ever thought I would!! It is like a small package of dynamite!
It weighs nearly 12 oz less than my Sig 245...
OP, thanks for the write-up!
http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss105/billpocz/IMG_2769.jpg
But wait, I alway thought that Sigs Rule... I am SO confused!!
http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss105/billpocz/2008062099112477.gif
Bill ;)
jocko
08-16-2011, 11:11 AM
A GLOCKSTER WILL NOT BUY THAT CRAPOLA..Just ask um!!
wyntrout
08-16-2011, 11:18 AM
I've had many "customers" at my garage sales proudly show me their KelTecs... usually in those tacky "fanny packs" sometimes sporting the KelTec Logo, and until I got my first polymer Kahr, I tried handling one at the local gun shows and checking out the prices... many, many times, but I could never "pull the trigger" and buy one. They just didn't look or feel good to me... not quality and not enough big gun features. I stuck with my SS Walther TPH .22 which weighs a tiny bit more than the P380 loaded! I had a K9... too big and heavy, and an Interarms SS Walther PPK/S, which was kind of heavy and liked to bite the web of my hand and tended to DOUBLE sometimes with the light SA trigger. I would be trying to get my finger re-situated between shots and kaboom!:eek: At least it was downrange!
That slide was sharp and low... really had to concentrate on not getting "bit".
The K9, I couldn't really shoot that well, either, but after lots of practice with the polymers, and a bit more with the K9, I was finally shooting it a lot better. The big trick is shooting a lot and often. I went 3 to 5 years... not sure... without shooting anything, well other than my BB or pellet guns. I really got going and joined the Gun Gallery range here on Beach Blvd February of last year after getting a LNIB PM9 DLC with NS at the local gun show. I must have fired over 6K rounds since then. I don't keep records of rounds fired, but I was able to compute over 2,200 rounds in the PM45 before it got a new frame... in about 5 months! And that didn't include Kahr's test firing. More shooting really helps... especially since all of the Kahrs are similar in function and controls!
I'm overdue testing the Herters .380 FMJ I got for the range and will test that and the new 7-round mags when I get them.
My range trips are productions... getting all of the stuff gathered up loaded into my range case... guns, ammo, magazines, loaders, ear protection, eye-protection, camera, more ammo, some tools and cleaning supplies... and so on... plus get a cardboard target and paper plates marked up. I reinforce the top middle of the cardboard and tape on a twine or wirewrap tie to put over the clamp on the pulley system at the range. I don't like my targets falling off downrange! They don't allow you to recover them!
It seems to take half a day to get ready... and then 200-250 rounds on a short trip, go so quickly! But it's sure fun!
Wynn:D
lliden
08-16-2011, 03:17 PM
Hi Folks. Jay from Kahr contacted me today. Don't know if he was watching this forum, or saw my comments when I registered the warranty of my PM45. But impressed that he reached out nonetheless.
He is sending me a new slide stop to see if that resolves the problem feeding the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain ammo. And I'll try some 185 grain hollowpoints and pass him my results. I'll let you know what happens over the next week...
jocko
08-16-2011, 03:33 PM
indeed beyond the call of duty..
HeyGuysWatchThis
08-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Hi Folks. Jay from Kahr contacted me today. Don't know if he was watching this forum, or saw my comments when I registered the warranty of my PM45. But impressed that he reached out nonetheless.
He is sending me a new slide stop to see if that resolves the problem feeding the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain ammo. And I'll try some 185 grain hollowpoints and pass him my results. I'll let you know what happens over the next week...
Did he respond to the FMJ only angle?
Bawanna
08-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Hi Folks. Jay from Kahr contacted me today. Don't know if he was watching this forum, or saw my comments when I registered the warranty of my PM45. But impressed that he reached out nonetheless.
He is sending me a new slide stop to see if that resolves the problem feeding the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain ammo. And I'll try some 185 grain hollowpoints and pass him my results. I'll let you know what happens over the next week...
Outstanding. Jolly good of him to do that. Call me impressed to the extreme.
Michael W.
08-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Hi Folks. Jay from Kahr contacted me today. Don't know if he was watching this forum, or saw my comments when I registered the warranty of my PM45. But impressed that he reached out nonetheless.
He is sending me a new slide stop to see if that resolves the problem feeding the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain ammo. And I'll try some 185 grain hollowpoints and pass him my results. I'll let you know what happens over the next week...
When I was breaking in my PM45 besides FMJ I ran both Remington Golden Sabres and Federal 230gr HST's through mine without any issues.
The 230gr Golden Sabres usually are lifesaver with finicky 45's that you want to carry defensive load in. (Like every Kimber I ever owned:)
With their very rounded ogive they feed like ball but have some
impressive terminal effects. They're also easy to find.
Currently riding in my PM45 are the 230 Gr Federal HST's.
They were really tough to get for a long time but lately they seem
plentiful . Give them a try, 230 Gr HST is this generation's
"Flying Ashtray". In just about every caliber it's got some very dramatic
expansion without sacrificing expansion.
M-
lliden
08-17-2011, 08:07 AM
Thanks Michael. I tried the Golden Sabres, and they did not feed in my PM45 as reliably as FMJ. I'll see if I can find HSTs around town, and give them a run. My 185 grain order should be in before the weekend, and I'll try them too: Hornady Critical Defense & Winchester Silvertip.
Michael W.
08-17-2011, 09:09 AM
Thanks Michael. I tried the Golden Sabres, and they did not feed in my PM45 as reliably as FMJ. I'll see if I can find HSTs around town, and give them a run. My 185 grain order should be in before the weekend, and I'll try them too: Hornady Critical Defense & Winchester Silvertip.
Wow, thats the first time I've heard of Sabre's not feeding.
Could be the OAL might be interfering.
I don't recall if you mentioned earlier in this thread if you've searched up
some of the older posts re: the PM45 feed issues? Have you checked
your gun for the "feedstrip bevel" issue?
The PM45 is really a feat of engineering when you stop and consider how
compact it trully is. The whole line of Kahr guns are but I think the PM45
is really the pinnacle of what Kahr has been able to do with
downsizing the overall package. The downside is much tighter tolerances
and perhaps more unforgiving of ammo choices.
But then, I'm of the opinion that in .45 ACP ANY modern hollowpoint
will do the job adequately.
Re: Federal HST, if you don't find it locally ATG has them (although pricey)
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-45-acp-federal-le-tactical-hst-230gr-hp-ammo/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo
I use the standard pressure 230gr not the +P variant.
Good luck to you!
M-
lliden
08-21-2011, 10:21 PM
Range update: I shot a few boxes of Corbon 185 grain hollowpoints, Winchster Silvertiop, and Hornady Critical defense, also 185 grain. All fed flawlessly. But I had some light primer strikes on the Silvertips, 2 out of 50. And the Corbon's kicked my ass with their recoil and muzzle blast. So far, the Hornady Critical Defense seem to be the best combination of reliable feeding and managable recoil.
wyntrout
08-21-2011, 10:56 PM
I've put probably 3,000+ rounds through my PM45, or the collective "Franken-Boomer". No particular round gave me problems. I prefer 230-grain standard rounds... JHP and FMJ... the same weight and general ballistics. I don't see excessive recoil and don't feel the need for +P with the 230-grain loads.
For defense, I used Golden Sabers and then Bonded Golden Sabers... better penetration. BJHP stands for Brass Jacketed Hollow Points, confusing some people, even one dealer that I corrected. When it became difficult to get the Bonded GS, I switched to Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel which are bonded, as well, and designed for... short barreled pistols like the PM45. I also bought a bunch of the regular Gold Dots for my longer barreled .45's. I like the GDs and the Bonded GS... all in 230-grain sizes.
Both of those rounds have jacketing at the tip to preclude the lead from increasing friction in loading... problematic in some with exposed lead at the tip that does contact the feed ramp.
The GDs are really different between the regular and the Short Barrel, with the latter having cavity that is about 0.1" shallower and wider at the bottom of the cavity than the standard GDs.
My post and flash testing the GDs and GDSB:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7147
Wynn:)
TheTman
08-22-2011, 12:19 AM
My friend with the 3.5" barrel Kimber was told by the smith at the gun store he bought it from, that 185 gr bullets perform better from short barrel .45s, like his Kimber and Kahrs, than the 230 gr, usually do. Having less mass gets them moving quicker with an increase in FPS/FPE over most 230gr loads. I can see the logic in that. Both weights are going to leave the same size entry wound, what happens from there, depends on how well the bullet performs. I've heard that the 230 gr Hydra Shoks perform better at lower velocities than many other HP designs, so I would like to try those out on some wet newspaper with a layer or two of denim covering it, but they are very scarce around here right now. I do have some standard 230 Gold Dots, and some 185 gr +P Golden Sabre that I want to test too. Probably should pick up a box of the short barrel Gold Dots and see how they compare to the standard load. Will try the PDX1 from Walmart too, and maybe take a run down to Gander Mountain and pick up some different brands. Gonna have to wait until I get the farm back, but that should happen pretty soon. Not supposed to fire anything but shotguns out there now, but if I do it in the barn with the doors closed on a week day, no body should be close enough to tell what was being shot if the even hear anything at all. If I do it on a windy day chances are no one will hear anything anyway. I take a shotgun and shoot it once so if the cops do come out I have that to show them I was shooting a shotgun. I've done that several times in the past and never had a complaint, or any cops show up.
wyntrout
08-22-2011, 12:51 AM
Opinions are cheap and everybody has one... or two... or a bunch! Some people spout stuff like that just to say something "authoritatively", usually to a neophyte who's lead astray by the "expert". I haven't done any penetration testing, but a lot HAS been done by "bubbas", and experts and posted online. So the information is there... factory, magazine and gun experts alike. There's federal and other LE agency tests, too, including videos. And there are tests like the Ballistics by the Inch:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html
Where a few guys got together and did some really great testing with a ton of ammo and cutting off barrels for a lot of calibers in testing the effect of barrel length on velocity and energy. It's very informative with actual real everyday pistols as well, including updates late last year for the most popular .380 ACP's, among them the Kahr P380.
Wynn:)
dwordinger@netzero.net
08-22-2011, 03:55 PM
I've shot Remington 185 grain Golden Saber 45 ACP +P, and as a few others have already commented, they work great. I usually practice with something less expensive, but my magazines for carry and self defense are loaded with Golden Sabers.
Exclr8
08-25-2011, 09:51 PM
I am using Horandy custom 200gr xtp rounds without problem.
Bawanna
08-25-2011, 10:57 PM
I am using Horandy custom 200gr xtp rounds without problem.
Is this a factory loaded round or a reload with that bullet? I've reloaded with that bullet with good result but never seen it as a factory load around here.
I like the bullet alot.
Exclr8
08-25-2011, 11:04 PM
Factory round. Item #9112
lliden
08-26-2011, 09:16 AM
Range Update:
I've installed the new slide stop Kahr sent me, and put another 200 rounds thru my PM45. Here are the results:
1. The slide stop no longer is pushed by any rounds.
2. Federal Guard Dog (165gr), Hornady Critical Defense (185gr), and 230gr FMJ feed the most reliably. No failures to chamber, load, or eject.
3. Winchester Silvertips (185gr) periodically exhibit a failure to feed. Sometimes, perhaps 2 out of 50 rounds, the bullet gets stuck on the upper hood of the chamber.
4. Corbon +P (185gr) feed ok, but the recoil is painful....so I won't be shooting those. :-)
5. Still can't feed Speer Gold Dot (230gr) or Remington Golden Sabre (230gr) reliably. I'll stay away from those.
6. And of course, the Hornady TAP (230gr) rounds won't chamber due to the shape of their longer bullet.
In general, an improvement.
HOWEVER, I have had two problems:
1. With the Winchester Silvertips, and with the Hornady Critical Defense, I experienced a few (about 3 out of 50) failures to reset the trigger. The slide racked under recoil, the round loaded, but the trigger did not reset so the striker could not be released. What should I do about this?
2. Half-way through my shooting session today, I noticed that one of the mags that came with the PM45 would not slide into the mag well. And I had some problems loading the first round from slide-lock. After inspecting the magazine, I discovered cracks at the top back corners of the magazine, each about 1/2 inch long. These cracks allow the mag lips to expand under pressure from the magazine spring, preventing the mag from inserting into the frame.
I sent an email to Jay at Kahr, asking for help. I hope he'll replace the magazine under warranty. It could have been causing some of the feeding problems, before the cracks got large enough for me to notice.
deanp1964
11-06-2011, 10:17 PM
my suggestion is that you request an RMA and send this gun back to Kahr to CORRECT the feed & extraction problems.
Those issues are simply unacceptable. FAR cheaper guns perform much better.
Kahr needs to be held to at least the same standard as the other gun manufacturers.
drgad
11-07-2011, 06:20 PM
Guys/Moderator,
Is there some reason why certain folks on these threads can't write a full paragraph without having to insinuate or use curse words? No matter how "well known" the post writer may be, do they have to resort to such elemental and debased language? Can we please grow up here, and act like gentlemen?
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