Alternative look at Stopping Power

[TheTman]

I came across this article entitled "An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power". I found it an interesting read and thought I'd share it.
My intentions are not to rekindle the never ending debate over which caliber is best or has the most stopping power, but rather to look at stopping power from a different point of view. The author did come to a conclusion I absolutely agree with: If you really want to stop someone, use a shotgun or rifle. It's a fairly short piece, and doesn't take up much time. The article is here:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

[jmk1138]

I'm not sure if I understand statistics.

The .38, 9mm, .40, and .45 all had failure rates of between 13% and 17%.

Doesn't that mean that there is a 25% spread in failure rates (4 out of 17 is about 1/4)?

If my understanding is correct, I think that's a big difference. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[georgepittenger]

Well a long gun might be a tad uncomfortable for an EDC , but my .357 Magnum , S&W revolver , may get their attention ..... :D

I don't yet have a shot gun for home-defense but I can see one in my future .

[TheTman]

I dunno. I just breezed through it this morning, and didn't take a lot of time to analyze the data, just kind of got an overall picture of what he was trying to show.
I basically took it to mean there is no magic caliber that is going to stop a guy 100% of the time. I was going to look it over better this evening. And I think he is meaning to say shot placement is critical like a .22 right between the eyes is going to be more effective than a .44 mag to the shoulder. And that some people will just "give up" after being shot no matter what caliber, while someone determined to cause you harm might take a few rounds before he drops.

[TominCA]

I really liked his analysis. It says that caliber is not as important as was shown in the very comprehensive Marshall and Sanaow (sp) test. I think he has a point. He also recognizes "psychological stops" which basically says that a lot of people stop resisting no matter what - or where - they are hit or hit with. This has nothing to do with bullet type or shot placement.

His numbers show that everything 38 through 45 cal is really in a close range of effectiveness if you survey for multiple toso and head shots, but exclude bullet type. It is pretty interesting and for me at least, in keeping with what I see when hunting. Obviously shot placement is important and big, poweful calinbers are more effective than smaller, less powerful calibers, buit caliber and bullet type is not as definite as an analysis based on "one shot stops" would show.

This doesn't mean that one shot stops data is worthless; it just means that the one shot stop data sample really analyzes bullets, not gunfights. Which is waht it was desigend to do. This new study is very valuable in understanding what is likely to happen in a shooting.

[Dietrich]

Thanks for posting a very interesting piece.I was particularly interested in his findings concerning psychological stops versus physical stops.He`s right about one thing.As much as I love my handguns give me a 12 gauge with #4 buckshot any day.Great anti-personnel rig.

[TheTman]

Yep, a shotgun will make someone think twice about comin in, or stop thinking entirely if they do come in. I wonder how those little .410 Judge pistols would do loaded with 3" magnum, with BB's or bigger? I keep my 20 gauge youth model handy, loaded with birdshot, at the distances in my apt. 8-12 ft to the front door, it's gonna be effective no matter what it's loaded with. If I was on the farm, i'd definately have at least BB sized shot or bigger in my shotguns.

[ltxi]

Excellent....thanks.

[Gray_Rider]

Concerning pistol rounds and "stopping power" history favors large caliber bullets.

Read that as calibers starting with a [4] children.

History favors heavy calibers. Decade in and decade out for hundreds of years. There's no debating the facts when history is taken into account.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice
We warned you in 1862!

[Longitude Zero]

Outside of CCW I recall a range instructor intoning, "The on reason to carry and used a handgun is to fight you way back to the rifle you should have never put down."

Shotgun pellets are not as effective as many think. But a slug, now that can be a great attention getter.

[garyb]

Interesting article. Thanks.

[OldLincoln]

Concerning pistol rounds and "stopping power" history favors large caliber bullets.

Read that as calibers starting with a [4] children.

History favors heavy calibers. Decade in and decade out for hundreds of years. There's no debating the facts when history is taken into account.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice
We warned you in 1862!
Yup, even after 2 years it hasn't changed. As for history favoring heavy calibers, it's a another for sure. I don't recall the USS Missouri lobbing any 9mm shells into the enemy. Has the B52 dropped any 9mm bombs? So discussion closed with bigger is better!. QED for my Latin friends. ;)

[wyntrout]

The author clarifies:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/9070

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

A rifle or shotgun may be good for home defense, but they are rather awkward for concealed carry. Any gun in a defensive situation is better than no gun. The .22 LR is very under rated for use in self defense situations.

[jocko]

I wonder how that Naval yard killergot in places with aqn 870 without be in noticed.. I listened to the CEO of Starbucks TRYIN to alk aorund their gun ban.He must be relatedto Fred Astaire,as he sure danced around some questions that Cavuto ask him.I respect their decision andI hope they espect my decision to go elsewhere...Just sayin

[Bawanna]

Starbucks is going back to banning them. I thought they were all pro carry, have open carry guns and coffee days.

I never been in one so I wouldn't know but they flipped once already because everybody quit going in when they had no guns signs.

[downtownv]

The author clarifies:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/9070

Wynn:)

I'm most Surprised about the 32 acp :crazy:

[garyb]

Starbucks.....guess too much caffeine affects the brain and doesn't mix with decision making....OK with firearms though.

[knkali]

Outside of CCW I recall a range instructor intoning, "The on reason to carry and used a handgun is to fight you way back to the rifle you should have never put down."

Shotgun pellets are not as effective as many think. But a slug, now that can be a great attention getter.

+1000 on slugs but don't underestimate the damage a shotty with bird shot would do. Hell tic tacs instead of bird shot at SD distances would leave a heck of a mark.
ANY guy with a beard and accent like this is a fukkn expert on combat shotgun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

[Bill K]

Good article. For me it boiled down to this one chart:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.png

A Kahr in .357 (Sig) anyone? :Amflag2:

[Tinman507]

Wait until Bawanna and Jocko see this chart.
Who knew Jocko was right all along? 9mm trumps 45ACP?

[muggsy]

IMHO shot placement is a far more important consideration than caliber. One shot to the CNS with a .22 short will stop a fight instantly.

[JohnR]

Quantity has a quality all its own - an interesting perspective I recently read was, a rapid fire self-defense practice drill should NOT leave one ragged hole. Instead, a grouping maybe 3-6" will better assure hitting multiple organs instead of gouging the same organ four times after it's already been put out of commission.

[Ascham1]

Good info and food for thought.

[muggsy]

One thing quite evident from the statistics is that being shot is a very unpleasant experience. I don't care who you are.

[skiflydive]

I think comparing the 9 with the .380 is interesting. It looks like .380 isn't so bad after all.

[Alfonse]

Quantity has a quality all its own - an interesting perspective I recently read was, a rapid fire self-defense practice drill should NOT leave one ragged hole. Instead, a grouping maybe 3-6" will better assure hitting multiple organs instead of gouging the same organ four times after it's already been put out of commission.

In that case, I'm a perfect shot!

[GLOCKROCKER]

+1000 on slugs but don't underestimate the damage a shotty with bird shot would do. Hell tic tacs instead of bird shot at SD distances would leave a heck of a mark.
ANY guy with a beard and accent like this is a fukkn expert on combat shotgun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

What accent?:D

[kwh]

I think comparing the 9 with the .380 is interesting. It looks like .380 isn't so bad after all.
I believe he says that bullets were not taken into account and that FMJ were probably overrepresented in the 9mm. So we might be comparing FMJ .380 to FMJ 9mm. If so, we would expect to see little difference. Comparing .380 JHP's and 9mm JHP+P's to each other, I think we would see more difference between the two.

[Pointblank]

There's a reason why European police used the .32 acp for so many decades. It's very accurate, almost no recoil and shot placement is easy.

[berettabone]

There's a reason why European police used the .32 acp for so many decades. It's very accurate, almost no recoil and shot placement is easy.
It's cheap, and they don't deal with people with weapons, like we do here.

[WLEEP]

Just went thru this quickly but it appears the .380 might be one of the best overall rounds to carry when you factor in concealment. Does it not?


Of course, round placement is the ultimate decider.

[TheTman]

While I feel better armed with a 9mm and up, the .380 is a viable SD round, particularly in summer when it doesn't have to penetrate multiple layers of clothing.

Since some pretty small 9mm's can be had, I see no reason to carry a .380, unless it's because that's all that will fit in the pocket of your jogging shorts or something like that. Still I'd rather be armed with a .380 than a rock.

The Eastern Europeans have had good success with the 9mm Makarov, which doesn't give you much more power over a .380.

And as you say round placement is critical. I was surprised by the what the lowly .22 magnum can do. It's FPE isn't too far behind some of the more popular SD calibers.

[leftysixty]

Well! Simple solution is- I don't care what you carry/use, If you need to shoot, shoot 'till the shootee is down and not moving:32:

Problem solved:D

:amflag:

[AIRret]

Thanks for the information TMan!

Shot placement is huge.
I'm a little disappointed that he didn't mention hits to the pelvic girdle, and how that can drop a BG in his tracks.
Have you noticed how many of the newer body armer I/we see also protects the pelvic area…….interesting.
interesting.

[Longitude Zero]

Shot placement is critical. For the most part. a 44 magnum to the foot will probably be more effective in topping a turd than a 32 almost everywhere. the European use of a 32 had zero to do with its effectiveness. It was due to the fact that civilian law enforcement could not use a military round aka 9mm.