Shouldn't Kahrs just work right the first time?

[QuercusMax]

Having read a lot of comments in Kahrtalk and other places, I read over and over again comments like "I just got my new [whatever gun], put 50 rounds through it with no FTF's".

This puzzles me. When you buy an item that costs many hundreds of dollars, shouldn't you expect it to just work? Why would the fact that it works be remarkable?

I don't hear people in other places saying things like:

"Just got my new flat panel TV and it still has a great picture after 5 hours."
"Bought a new car today, drove it 50 miles, and it still works."


I don't get it. Has handgun quality been so low in the past that when something works, it's remarkable? And aren't most FTF's a result of ammunition quality, not gun quality?

Whenever I buy a product like a TV or car, and the salesman tries to get me to buy the extended warranty, I always refuse because I just expect the product to work, and keep working.

Are finely-crafted handguns in the same category, or is there something I am missing? Just curious about this phenomenon, so would be interested in comments.

[ripley16]

Shouldn't Kahrs just work right the first time?

They mostly do, just like other brands of firearm. Kahr, as do a couple other manufacturers, stress a break in period. Maybe this is why you see the initial reports.

[MikeyKahr]

I hear a jocko and Porsche story coming on... ;-)

Sent using Tapatalk

[Longitude Zero]

ALL weapons have break in periods when the parts are wearing together and getting acquainted. Thats why most manufacturers stress firing a minimum number of rounds to break it it.

In truth a new car motor has a wear in period when the parts are getting acquainted. Electronics by definition should work instantly. Anytime you have parts moving against other parts a break in period is the norm. It is the way it is.

[Russ]

The small size is I believe the issue. Kahr has a barrel length of 3 inches. You have got to make all the parts smaller and much more exact in order for them to operate properly. When I was a child just 30 years ago a small gun was a snub nose revolver. It really is amazing we have semi autos that are less than an inch thick that will easily fit in your pocket and weigh less than the bag of marbles I packed to school. That really is a technological wonder.

[apdturbo]

many mechanical devices require a break in period this doesn't mean what-so-ever that the device is insuperior its just how mechanics and physics work.

[Barth]

I believe Kahr's are extremely accurate and have tighter tolerances from the factory than some other manufacturers.
The upper end guns come with match barrels.
I think Kimber's are similar.
With match parts, and tight tolerances, you're looking at significant beak-in period.

Update:
This is directly from a Kimber manual -
Kimbers firearms are quality custom pieces.
Our firearms are hand fitted to tight tolerances.
For proper Break-in of the firearm shoot 400-500 rounds
of Quality Factory Ball (230g. FMJ) Ammunition.
Cleaning and lubricating the gun every 100-150 rounds.

[TucsonMTB]

I don't get it. Has handgun quality been so low in the past that when something works, it's remarkable?
It does seem that way, doesn't it. I thought it might be limited to el-cheapo guns like my Kel-Tec P-3AT, but it's not. My impression is that unless you buy a hand crafted 1911 from Ed Brown, Wilson, or one of the other premium makers that routinely charge more than two grand, you are just getting a gun that is assembled from excellent parts that might have some fit issues because a silly thousandth of an inch here or there is in tolerance, but may not fit perfectly. Add to that the variable quality of metal surfaces depending on where in the life of the tooling the part was made, and you ensure that some, relatively small, percentage of reasonably priced guns are going to have problems.

Fortunately, most are good enough that if you can baby them through a few hundred rounds the surfaces polish in and any interferences wear down. It's a good thing, but occasionally frustrating.

I have had had three plastic Kahrs. The first, a CW40, worked perfectly out of the box and was even relatively easy to field strip. The second, a stainless PM40, was a baich to take apart for the first 300 rounds and went back to Kahr for FTF issues. At a thousand rounds, it's now easy to pop apart and 100% reliable, with the right ammo. The last PM40 is black and worked well from day one, but was a pain to take a apart. Now at around 500 rounds it's very smooth, easy to pop apart, and 100% reliable.

Am I disappointed that $600 guns did not work as well as a $400 gun? A little. Was it worth the pain? Yeah, it was but I was worried with the stainless PM40. :rolleyes:

Do I have more expensive guns that worked perfectly from day one? Yes.

Do I have cheaper guns that were even more of a pain to get running right? Yes, but some of them worked better than the Kahr from day one.

As they say, your mileage may vary. Mine certainly has. :D

[Longitude Zero]

I have a Les Baer Premier II that had several bobbles in the first 200 rounds. Since then I have had ZERO problems that were the fault of the weapon. Even expensive weapons need to be broken in. In fact a reasonable case could be made that the tighter the tolerances the more the need for a well lubed and break in period.

Unless you are dealing with the ultra cheapos cost is not a determining factor as to whether the gun will work or not. I have seen VERY expensive weapons stumble and cheapos never miss a lick.

[wyntrout]

My PM45 went back to Kahr 4 times... is that a "significant beak-in"?? LOL... :D

Couldn't resist. Anyhow, it was anything but boring... and for awhile, we had our differences, but now we've bonded and I'm quite happy with my all-aspect firing "FrankenBoomer"... back to "Boomer" for short. I'm very glad that I didn't give up on him.

Wynn:D

[Barth]

My PM45 went back to Kahr 4 times... is that a "significant beak-in"?? LOL... :D
Wynn:D

I’m really just trying to be nice.
Although I just read an article where five new pocket nines were tested.
Guns&Ammo Handguns: Subcompact 9MM Shootoff
And they ALL had initial reliability issues.
We are talking Sig Sauer P290, Ruger SR9, Kimber Solo. Kahr PM9 and Springfield EMP!

Truth is when my MK40 Elite arrived I got excited and raced to the range.
Opened the box and fired 200 Ranger HPs as fast as I could shoot and reload.
No lube, no slide racking, no ()*&*(.
The gun is flawless right out of the box.
I guess that’s why it’s called Elite – LOL!

[TucsonMTB]

The gun is flawless right out of the box.
I guess that’s why it’s called Elite – LOL!
And, odds are you would buy another. Both of my PM40 pistols are now working well, after a significant teething period. Odds are I will not buy another.

The two Kel-Tec P-3AT pistols in the small safe have a similar history. I will never buy another, even though I would dearly love to have a second one in hard chrome.

Oh well. Given their sales volumes, neither manufacturer is likely to notice.

[allglock]

ALL weapons have break in periods when the parts are wearing together and getting acquainted. Thats why most manufacturers stress firing a minimum number of rounds to break it it.

In truth a new car motor has a wear in period when the parts are getting acquainted. Electronics by definition should work instantly. Anytime you have parts moving against other parts a break in period is the norm. It is the way it is.

Flame suit on......Glocks don't need no stinkin break in....:popcorn:

[allglock]

And, odds are you would buy another. Both of my PM40 pistols are now working well, after a significant teething period. Odds are I will not buy another.

The two Kel-Tec P-3AT pistols in the small safe have a similar history. I will never buy another, even though I would dearly love to have a second one in hard chrome.

Oh well. Given their sales volumes, neither manufacturer is likely to notice.

Amen!

[SmokingGun]

ALL weapons have break in periods when the parts are wearing together and getting acquainted. Thats why most manufacturers stress firing a minimum number of rounds to break it it.

In truth a new car motor has a wear in period when the parts are getting acquainted. Electronics by definition should work instantly. Anytime you have parts moving against other parts a break in period is the norm. It is the way it is.

This!

[Barth]

Flame suit on......Glocks don't need no stinkin break in....:popcorn:

My Sig Sauer P220/45 and P239/357, along with Kahr MK40 Elite, all required ZERO brake-in.
And all shoot like match pistols right out of the box.
Plus they look good doing it!

Burn, baby, burn.

[K.C.]

Glocks don't need no stinkin break in....

Quoted for truth!

[Barth]

Quoted for truth!

Sometimes the truth hurts - LOL!
""I was also at the range with my best friend. He purchased a Generation 4 Glock 17 on the same day I bought my M&P. He didn't have my same luck as he experienced multiple FTFs (failures to feed) and one FTE (failure to eject). Photos follow."

http://policelink.monster.com/topics/73315-glock-17-gen4-issues/posts

[QuercusMax]

Thanks everyone for your responses so far.

Consensus answer seems to be something like: "Guns are fine mechanical devices that need a break-in period." (And thus people are providing reports on their experiences with this.)

But by the same token, a new vehicle is also a complex mechanical device, much more so than any handgun, and while some new cars have problems, this is much less true today than it was back a few decades ago. In fact, we just expect new cars to work.

I wonder if handgun manufacturing today is like that of the US auto industry back in the 60s and 70s, when there was less attention to quality than there is today? If so, perhaps this is a result of the lean times that firearms manufacturers went through in the recent past, due to the restrictive gun laws of the Brady Bill period, when volume was so low that manufacturers were just struggling to stay in business and thus could not "afford" to build quality products? Just a guess.

But since I posed my initial question, I have come up with another possible answer as to why we hear so many "50 round initial reports." I think it is likely an expression of initial euphoria (or in some cases disappointment) that we all feel from our first experience with our new prized possession? Don't you just want to share the joy of your new little toy? It feels good.

[ripley16]

I wonder if handgun manufacturing today is like that of the US auto industry back in the 60s and 70s, when there was less attention to quality than there is today? If so, perhaps this is a result of the lean times that firearms manufacturers went through in the recent past, due to the restrictive gun laws of the Brady Bill period, when volume was so low that manufacturers were just struggling to stay in business and thus could not "afford" to build quality products? Just a guess.


I think just the opposite, in that quality today is superior to days past. We forget that selfloading handguns were not always viewed as reliable and had a long struggle to gain universal acceptance in comparison to revolvers. In fact, automatics have become so reliable that the occational failure or introduction of a poorly performing pistol is news.

Pistols have gone through a evolution in the last couple decades, they are not your fathers gun. They are better, more reliable, much lighter in most cases, easier to work on and just as accurate as ever. Computerized machining gives us unheard of tolerances and quality control. Pistols have shrunk to unbelievably small sizes, on lightweight frames, yet still deliver excellent performace.

Guns today are better than ever, more reliable and more useful in many ways than ever before, IMHO.

Why people post their initial experience? Maybe because we now have the internet and we now can tweet, post, facebook, etc., every dull or interesting happening in our lives in minute detail.

[Barth]

+1 on that.
Also the latest generation of super light and super small guns,
with short barrels/slides, present additional challenges.

Seems like I remember reading that Kahr ran into problems in development of the MK40 3" Micro.
They had to initially increase the weight of the slide.
And after continued problems finally signed an agreement with Seecamp
to use their patented captured double recoil spring design.

[Longitude Zero]

Sometimes the truth hurts - LOL!
""I was also at the range with my best friend. He purchased a Generation 4 Glock 17 on the same day I bought my M&P. He didn't have my same luck as he experienced multiple FTFs (failures to feed) and one FTE (failure to eject). Photos follow."

http://policelink.monster.com/topics/73315-glock-17-gen4-issues/posts

Yes sir it does. I own and fire Glocks frequently. They are like any other mechanical device...the hiccup everyonce and awhile. Rarely but it happens.

[CJB]

There was a time when anyone who got a car that ran perfectly after 50 miles would have wrote it across the sky! In the 50's and 60's... all post WWII production really... cars were pretty terrible. You'd just not see one without issues, right off the dealer's lot.

Airleaks that whistled or let rain in
Electrical problems
Leftover fasteners rattling around
Stuff that just didn't work - like directionals, radios, seat latches
Stripped out fasteners from the factory
Engines that ran very poorly would would not start, or even crank under some conditions.

That was the norm of the day. I remember my dad's 62 Impala wagon... if it was cold enough for a coat, you had one, and EXACTLY one shot at starting the engine, or it would flood, and you'd have to pop the hood, take off the air cleaner, and hold the choke open with your fingers to start it. Dad even came up with a little sheet metal doo-dad so mom could do it without a helper. Dont even talk about my uncles 63 Caddy... we used to call it the "Coup-de-mess".... nothing worked or stayed working.

Same used to be for TVs, and it was not uncommon for the TV-Repairman to show up at the house, take the back off the set, do some testing, change some tubes and make adjustments - on a brand new set.

You young'uns... I'll tell ya... you just have not lived a full and rich enuf existence! And don't go into the "our generation has cell phones and internet and ipods" bullcrap. Who do you think INVENTED them for you?

[Barth]

Yes sir it does. I own and fire Glocks frequently. They are like any other mechanical device...the hiccup everyonce and awhile. Rarely but it happens.

I never meant to be mean.
Actually think Glocks are fine guns.
Even though I’ve never had a failure with my Sigs.
I’m not so arrogant to believe it can’t happen.

When I comes to absolute handgun reliability?
I’ll go with my old school , low tech, Smith and Wesson revolvers – LOL!

[apdturbo]

Flame suit on......Glocks don't need no stinkin break in....:popcorn:

true, they just fail throughout their entire life and require tuned recoil springs depending on different ammo, sorry i owned glocks and had failures every time i shot them, will never own another glock again.

[Longitude Zero]

I never meant to be mean.
Actually think Glocks are fine guns.
Even though I’ve never had a failure with my Sigs.
I’m not so arrogant to believe it can’t happen.

When I comes to absolute handgun reliability?
I’ll go with my old school , low tech, Smith and Wesson revolvers – LOL!

Absolutely. The ONLY time I have ever had a revolver fail to fire is when I pulled it thru the 7th time and hit a chamber that had already fired. As much as I love self loaders I still bring our my wheelguns regularily and have a blast.

[Popeye]

Mechanical devices need to break in. Even my Harley had some break in instructions with it. In the end though it was my doing if I chose to follow those instructions or warnings. My experiences have beeen that higher quality mechanical devices might take a little longer do to there tight fitting parts. Having said that I've owned guns from the lower end (Ket Tec P3at) of the price range to the higher end(KahrPM9) and have not had to many problems and none after the breakin period with either. The gun Gods I guess have treated me well.

[O'Dell]

Flame suit on......Glocks don't need no stinkin break in....:popcorn:

Just keep believing THAT! Then talk to my son who has had dozens of Glocks and some have had problems.

I do think Glocks are put together "looser" than a lot of guns, especially Kahrs, for the reliability issue alone. That may work somewhat in a larger gun, but it also may effect accuracy in the long run as the gun gets even looser. Think old 1911's. I know for a fact from handling and shooting my son's Glocks, that they are not as tight when new as my SIGs, HK's and Kahrs.

That said, I have bought about 40 guns in the last five years including five Kahrs, thanks to some burglars, and I have had break in issues with exactly two, both expensive 3" 1911's. In the case of the Kimber, it only required better mags to rectify the problem, but the STI had the chamber reamed and polished and a stronger recoil assy to fix it. STI handled it under warranty.

[O'Dell]

Thanks everyone for your responses so far.

Consensus answer seems to be something like: "Guns are fine mechanical devices that need a break-in period." (And thus people are providing reports on their experiences with this.)

But by the same token, a new vehicle is also a complex mechanical device, much more so than any handgun, and while some new cars have problems, this is much less true today than it was back a few decades ago. In fact, we just expect new cars to work.

I wonder if handgun manufacturing today is like that of the US auto industry back in the 60s and 70s, when there was less attention to quality than there is today? If so, perhaps this is a result of the lean times that firearms manufacturers went through in the recent past, due to the restrictive gun laws of the Brady Bill period, when volume was so low that manufacturers were just struggling to stay in business and thus could not "afford" to build quality products? Just a guess.

But since I posed my initial question, I have come up with another possible answer as to why we hear so many "50 round initial reports." I think it is likely an expression of initial euphoria (or in some cases disappointment) that we all feel from our first experience with our new prized possession? Don't you just want to share the joy of your new little toy? It feels good.

One of the reasons for that is, that in the last twenty years, many mechanical systems in cars have been replaced by electronics, which have no break in. That change is not possible with guns, at least not today. Actually, the purely mechanical parts of car do require a break in, but with modern lubricants manufacturers don't stress it much anymore. They just hope it works itself out and 999 times out of a 1000, it does. BTW, my first job out of the Navy was a design engineer for the Chevrolet Division of GM.

[CJB]

In the case of engines, there has been a transition from skilled labor to precision automation. A byproduct of that is much finer surface finishes possible. Used to be you wore the rings into the bores, but now youd only do that on a rebuild, because those are done by hand.. Cylivder walls that vary less than half of a ten-thousandth are not unheard of. That cant be achieved on a production basis by skilled labor.

[jocko]

One of the reasons for that is, that in the last twenty years, many mechanical systems in cars have been replaced by electronics, which have no break in. That change is not possible with guns, at least not today. Actually, the purely mechanical parts of car do require a break in, but with modern lubricants manufacturers don't stress it much anymore. They just hope it works itself out and 999 times out of a 1000, it does. BTW, my first job out of the Navy was a design engineer for the Chevrolet Division of GM.

I must have bought one of ur designed GM cars back then, instead of a rear view mirror, my Chevy had a periscope on the top. It was neat, I never could find the fire button though:popcorn:

Oh how well I remember 10W" break" in oil when my dad bought has 51 dodge.

[TheTman]

I was readling the manual of the Kimber I aquired recently, it states 500 rounds for break in, which is my normal break-in period for ANY semi. I'd do it for Glock's, Beretta's, you name it, I want 500 rounds thru it. I'm much more trusting of Revolvers, maybe I shouldn't but start carrying them after 100-150 rounds.
The Charter Arms was the only one that had to go back home. It's cylinder moved too far away from the firing pin and wouldn't fire unless you held the cylinder back against the frame, which I do not want to be doing. But just fired a couple shots to test what was going on. They fixed it and it's been reliable since then, although I don't shoot it often, it's one of those carry often, shoot little type guns, I imagine it'd just fall apart if I tried to put much over 5,000 rounds through it. I don't know for sure, but that's kind of the rep they've got over the years.

[Quickdraw]

It says a lot that when you come to a Kahr forum and over 50% of the threads and posts are related to "my pistol doesn't run, how to get my pistol running or I finally got my pistol running". It is interesting how much effort is spent on justfying that the many issues like, mags splitting, mags not feeding, premature slide lock and nose diving rounds FTF'ing are just part of the supposed break-in for a quality pistol. For all of the talk about it being a small pistol with tight tolerances, this isn't the 1960. Tight tolerances aren't an issue in the world of CNC machining. We all paid more for our Kahrs than most other factory pistols except custom builds. I own Glocks, Sprinfields and Walthers and have never done anything except clean them and feed them.

That being said I do like my new CM9 and have somewhat enjoyed tuning it to get it to run properly but I would have liked it just as much if I could have just taken it out of the box and shot it.

[jocko]

#1 no way is 50% of the posts geared towards making kahrs run right... Most kahrs can be taken right out of the box and fired without jack sh-t being done to them. Sometimes we can help a person out with a minor issue to, before he panics and sends it back.Glad ur other guns worked as good as you stated

Lets see, I owned 3 kel tecs had to send them back a total of 17 times. Own a G19, it went back once, Owned a Para Carry 9, 3 slide stops and two trips back to the warranty station before it ever got right enough to trade. My Smith M &YP was the only good gun and it had the shitti-st trigger I have ever had on a smith, but it want bang every time. Now I own 3 kahrs My K9 bought used has never faltered. My PM9 has over 32K through it and never faltered. My P380 had to go back once and since has been aq good gun.

WhenI bought my new Jagtuar S type, the moon roof would not go back when I got it home. Took it back and they found a headliner tool stuck in the channel of the moon roof, Sh-t happens, :popcorn:

[wyntrout]

I remember things about 1000 miles of break-in, take-it-easy driving and early change of the oil at that point... for motorcycles and cars.

I also remember reading that you should break them in like your going to use them... brief forays into 80-90% full throttle. Well, I believed in the latter and using good oil and filters... synthetic... and changing at the manufacturer's recommended intervals, but some of those should REALLY REQUIRE synthetic... 7,500 miles! I also used Slick50 and Slick50 synthetic oil treatments.

Anyhow, I didn't wait very long to exercise full-throttle because I wanted that kind of service out of my vehicles and I've never "pu$$y-footed" around with my vehicles... or tools. The only problems I ever had were tires tossing off the re-treads... over 95 mph... back in the 70 mph days... and in the hot summers when those things parted company... necessitating carrying SEVERAL spares for a trip. They had "guarantees, but it was a PITA to carry them back and get them re-retreaded!

I finally broke down and bought some NEW ?SUN or something 20? tires for about $80 a set... late 60's for my '58 Impala. I really gave up on "saving" money with retreads.

Well, I don't recall the subject and rambled a "bit" as usual.:rolleyes:

Wynn:blushing::blah::typing:

[O'Dell]

I must have bought one of ur designed GM cars back then, instead of a rear view mirror, my Chevy had a periscope on the top. It was neat, I never could find the fire button though:popcorn:

Oh how well I remember 10W" break" in oil when my dad bought has 51 dodge.

Yeah, I remember that car. We all laughed and called it the Jocko special.

[jocko]

new modern fluids today allow break in totally different. Oils have come a long long way towards great engine life. If one doesnt run synthetic oils in his car/motorcycle he is missing something. I remember when working at my dads goodyear business, we did alot of oil changes and I can remember some cars haveing 20+ grease fittings, Now today, NONE, NADDA Back in the 60's if u got 15 miles out of a set of tires, u bragged about it. Now days u buy a car and 80K later you start to look for a new set. Some people trade cars before they buy tires, another good reason why mom and pop tires stores like my family owned went by the way side. Oil changes back in my days 1000 miles, then 3K now 10K. U don't see custmers back in your place like we use to see...

Oh but the good ol days to:popcorn:

[O'Dell]

In the case of engines, there has been a transition from skilled labor to precision automation. A byproduct of that is much finer surface finishes possible. Used to be you wore the rings into the bores, but now youd only do that on a rebuild, because those are done by hand.. Cylivder walls that vary less than half of a ten-thousandth are not unheard of. That cant be achieved on a production basis by skilled labor.

You are exactly right. I should have mentioned improved manufacturing techniques along with improved lubricants.

[jocko]

I toured the engine plant at HD a few years ago. Their boring maching amazed me as to how they worked kand the tolerance was measured by lazers. Have no idea what accept and reject was but next to the boring machings was a big wheeled bin full of discarded new cylinders that did not make the grade. They told me they just send up back to the foundery and they are remelted and made again. All man did was load the cylinders in the machines and stand back and watch. I watche dthem in a certain area balance flywheels and with modern tech stuyff and about every 20th unit was then taken off the line and balanced by hand by a real person. I asked why that was done and they said inc ase of a major break down, one needs to be able to still balance by hand with gauges etc. Made sense, I guess. Give me a part made by a good machine any day over one made by human. Except watches and then I will pay to play in that filed of precision workmanship..

[wyntrout]

With synthetics, "they" advised not putting that in right away, because then the pistons, rings, and cylinders wouldn't wear in together for a good fit, I would change the "break-in" oil at 800 to 1,000 miles to get rid of any metal debris, and then run regular oil for another couple of thousand miles before switching to synthetic with Slick 50 early on. I have never had any any engine oil related problems. Good oil and proper filter and oil change intervals are the lifeblood of vehicles.

Good gas, brakes, and a decent battery takes care of most other possible problems. Follow the recommended maintenance schedule... don't wait for stuff to fail!:eek:

Wynn:)

[jocko]

wyn, that is pure b.s. Mobil one comes in every new merecedes, Porsche, Audi, volvo. Labroghini, bentley... same 0W-40 as when it is changed and these are high compression vehicles. Not sure where that started but I know it to be a fact that it is totally false...

Your theory has no basis fact.. No offense been through mobils lubricant labs many years ago. What your hearing and reading is ol timer fossil oil die hards who "die hard" for any changes.

But heh like gun lubes, everyone has their own way of doing things and if it works for you, go for it.

u probably have people saying synthetic cause bearing to slip, Pure B.S. also, oil/synthetic purpose is to keep two metals from making contact with a slight film between them wthout breaing down, what breaks down in oils is the fossil part of the lubricante. Most synthetcs have the same chemical additives in them that fossil oils have, except the base fluid is now made by laboratories ...

[wyntrout]

" Except watches and then I will pay to play in that filed of precision workmanship.. "

Yeah, I used to buy Seikos when they were $150 a pop for navigation accuracy where One second off on a computation for celestial computation meant one nautical mile of error... at least! I had to buy one a year at least and declared them for business. Now the $20-something Casios... digital are fine and my first of those went about 13 years before I needed to change the battery! I'm on the third one of those now and the light can be used for reading, if necessary.

Wynn:D

[ripley16]

That being said I do like my new CM9 and have somewhat enjoyed tuning it to get it to run properly but I would have liked it just as much if I could have just taken it out of the box and shot it.

That's what most of us do with a new gun... go shoot it. What prevented you from doing that, or what did you have to do prior to just shooting it? :confused: If I recall your new gun worked fine.

[wyntrout]

Jocko, I've discussed this before... I was using Amway synthetic back in the mid 70's at $7+ a quart and that was the advice back then. I just switch whatever's in the new engine after "Break-In" to the Mobil One. Back then they were saying 20,000 miles between oil changes, too! While that might work, I never pushed it that far.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

" Except watches and then I will pay to play in that filed of precision workmanship.. "

Yeah, I used to buy Seikos when they were $150 a pop for navigation accuracy where One second off on a computation for celestial computation meant one nautical mile of error... at least! I had to buy one a year at least and declared them for business. Now the $20-something Casios... digital are fine and my first of those went about 13 years before I needed to change the battery! I'm on the third one of those now and the light can be used for reading, if necessary.

Wynn:D

referring today to the great mechanical watchs made today in Swizerland, Like Pateks,, brequet, Panerai etc..

[O'Dell]

It says a lot that when you come to a Kahr forum and over 50% of the threads and posts are related to "my pistol doesn't run, how to get my pistol running or I finally got my pistol running". It is interesting how much effort is spent on justfying that the many issues like, mags splitting, mags not feeding, premature slide lock and nose diving rounds FTF'ing are just part of the supposed break-in for a quality pistol. For all of the talk about it being a small pistol with tight tolerances, this isn't the 1960. Tight tolerances aren't an issue in the world of CNC machining. We all paid more for our Kahrs than most other factory pistols except custom builds. I own Glocks, Sprinfields and Walthers and have never done anything except clean them and feed them.

That being said I do like my new CM9 and have somewhat enjoyed tuning it to get it to run properly but I would have liked it just as much if I could have just taken it out of the box and shot it.

You seemed to have missed the part where I said that all five of my Kahrs ran fine right out of the box. I can also say the same for my SIGs, HK's, S&W's, Springfields, Rugers, and even a Hi-Point carbine. In fact the only pistols that I have ever had a problem with in forty years were the recent STI and Kimber, and years ago a Browning HP, Colt 1911, two Tauruses, and a Keltec. I guess I've just been lucky????

I think you will also find that gun forums are places where people go to get help with problems, so it's normal to have discussions about issues on all of them. The people with problem-free guns are generally silent. I haven't done a survey, but I think your 50% is way high though on this forum. Also, I have seen many statements from manufacturers stating that a large number, not all, but a large number of guns returned had nothing wrong with them. Dare I say 'Shooter induced issues"? This is especially true of small CC guns that are prone to limp-wristing.

[Quickdraw]

That's what most of us do with a new gun... go shoot it. What prevented you from doing that, or what did you have to do prior to just shooting it? :confused: If I recall your new gun worked fine.

Other than need to troubleshoot and modify the 7 round mags to get them to function properly. The same time I played with the follower on the 6 round mags so they didn't hang up on the mag release. Changed the front sight but that was the whole plastic issue which I also do on Glocks.

Jocko, every once in a while when you log on just count the threads in the new post area and count how many are concerning trying to get these pistols running. Way too many and yes at times 50% or better.

[jocko]

gosh, O'Dell why didn't I think of all that. "shooter induced issues" aw no way it can't never be the shooter, just can't be.!!

[O'Dell]

wyn, that is pure b.s. Mobil one comes in every new merecedes, Porsche, Audi, volvo. Labroghini, bentley... same 0W-40 as when it is changed and these are high compression vehicles. Not sure where that started but I know it to be a fact that it is totally false...

Your theory has no basis fact.. No offense been through mobils lubricant labs many years ago. What your hearing and reading is ol timer fossil oil die hards who "die hard" for any changes.

But heh like gun lubes, everyone has their own way of doing things and if it works for you, go for it.

u probably have people saying synthetic cause bearing to slip, Pure B.S. also, oil/synthetic purpose is to keep two metals from making contact with a slight film between them wthout breaing down, what breaks down in oils is the fossil part of the lubricante. Most synthetcs have the same chemical additives in them that fossil oils have, except the base fluid is now made by laboratories ...

I've also been told from people in the industry that it's hard or impossible to get pure mineral oils down to the viscosities required for some cars. I use 0 W-20 in both of my cars.

[Quickdraw]

I think you will also find that gun forums are places where people go to get help with problems, so it's normal to have discussions about issues on all of them. The people with problem-free guns are generally silent. I haven't done a survey, but I think your 50% is way high though on this forum. Also, I have seen many statements from manufacturers stating that a large number, not all, but a large number of guns returned had nothing wrong with them. Dare I say 'Shooter induced issues"? This is especially true of small CC guns that are prone to limp-wristing.

There is alot of truth to the fact that many of the people we hear from are the one's with problems. There also is alot of truth to the fact that many of these pistols that are finicky are the smaller models that need more precise handling so they don't induce malfunctions into them. No weak grips or limp wristing with these things or you will have problems.

That said trying to talk around the issues that they do have isn't exactly doing them justice either. I knew when I saw this thread that several people would immediately go on the defensive. The 2'nd or 3'rd post even reffered to that. Just relax guys, no one is insulting your manhood. Just having a conversation where everyone's opinion is valid.

[Vanzpp]

Actually, when I bought my Toyota Matrix back in 2007, I was told by the place I bought it from that Toyotas need a break in period of about 1000 miles. When I asked what is acceptible, I was told to drive it around town as much as I like--just don't hop into it and drive across the country right away.

I now have about 40K miles on it and it has been a great car. No problems.

[jocko]

I've also been told from people in the industry that it's hard or impossible to get pure mineral oils down to the viscosities required for some cars. I use 0 W-20 in both of my cars.

they loose control over fossil base oil unlike labortary grown synthectics. Who would ever thought of 0w-40W. certainly 10 years ago they would have laughed at you for thinking that. The thig that never made sense tome waqs semi synthetic oils. I guess they are still wanting to please the few that think oil is better, so if u want it , we will make it for u.

If u ever want to see a difference in fluids, take 10W-30 w Oil AND 10W-30 Mobil one and pour each in a jar and thrown each in the freezer and then a day later take um both out and see which one still pours and which one looks like glue. Which fluid do u think is going to get to the necessary parts for engine start up FIRST. sometimes facdts just speak for themselves:popcorn:

[wyntrout]

Lessee... Kahrs... cars... Watches... and back to Kahrs.... Lots of people hit this forum without cracking the manual and reading the FAQ's... like "my front left rail has a ding in it!! What do I do!"... answered in the manual under FAQ's... Which is FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS! :D

Hey, I did something like that, too, trying to take apart my PM9... after all, I had owned a K9 for about 11 years up to that point and figured I could get the PM9 apart.... There's a difference, which someone finally pointed out, though most didn't recognize that I wasn't aligning the "Witness Marks" for removing the slide lock... even with photos! I was sure appalled that I didn't open the manual, either! Sometimes it pays to do that, especially with new stuff, or stuff you already think you know. But Newbys... that ought to be the first thing you do. You can hit the Kahr Site and download the one-fits-all manual and read about your new toy BEFORE it arrives, if you're waiting for shipping or had to order it. I do that all of the time when I'm trying to choose products. Some I eliminate when I've checked the manual and found it wouldn't do what I wanted, or was too hard to use... too much trouble!
Most people also don't go the the Kahr Site, either... lots of info and downloads and videos... then there are all of the posts on here they could search for... as I usually have to do to help anyone. It's more trouble since a software "update" or something here in the last year that invalidated all of my nice bookmarks. Sometimes I can't even find my relevant post/thread or anyone else's procedures and pictures that I know exist.

I use Google a lot... indeed you can do that and find a lot of stuff here. I've found some of my posts that way, too. I like to help people and share stuff and enjoy reading other' member's trials and tribulations. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here and many that are getting there. I'm still learning... often by experience.

Not everyone needs feeding all of the time, but I believe in teaching someone to fish so they can learn to feed themselves, not feed them every bite because it's so easy to satisfy them for the moment and keep them dependent... like our big old government!

I don't want anyone to be afraid to ask questions! That's one of the great things we have here, but a little effort on new owner's part can open a lot of doors to information... that could be more factual and relevant than just any yahoo jumping in here... no names mentioned... and I'm sure I fit the Yahoo picture sometimes.

I've seen many times that someone with hearsay or bad 'Net info will jump in before a person with real first hand knowledge can answer them, and we have our share of Trolls and such, but it doesn't take long to recognize those... the negativity or bias they exude.

Jus' sayin'. :hippie:

So, I'll stop this ramble and see what others are up to.:blah::typing:

Wynn:) :yo:

[jocko]

well said, amigo.

I needed a turn light bulb in my audi A4 on the left side kand I just couldnot figure out how toget tyoit. Icalled Audi ahd the tech there made it sound like major surgery and siad 75-100$ to do it. I said WTF or something to that effect. My son said dad google it upand see what u find, So I did that I goggled up Audi A4 model year 04 left side turn signal bulb replacement and walla, GB6491 type tutorial actualy. It took me 10 minutes at best as I had the tools to get to the two little screws that I did not know existed until the photos showed me where to find them and what to do. i could install that bulb now blind folded. Amazing what one can find if he just looks.

[QuercusMax]

Going back to the original subject, I want to make my own experience report.

After going many years without purchasing any new handguns (or even shooting very much for that matter), in the past 2 years I have purchased 5 very different handguns of 4 different brands. (I had forgotten that it is not actually possible to have enough guns, but my memory came back recently, thank goodness.) Included are various models and calibers of Beretta, Browning, Kimber, and of course Kahr.

With several thousand rounds down range in all, using several different brands of ammo including Winchester, Blazer (brass & ugh - aluminum), Federal, and CCI, I have not had a single FTF, FTE, or any other kind of "F", beginning with shot #1 for each. This is exactly what I would have expected from high-quality products. Maybe I was just lucky, but that's what happened.

The only defect in any of these modern weapons was the slight front sight misalignment of my MK9 Elite as reported in a different thread. And I was easily able to correct that with a B&J sight adjustment tool (pricey, but highly recommended).

[wyntrout]

Some cars' manuals have pictures and how-to sections for stuff like that. Our 2001 Volvo S40 has a lot of stuff like that and it's helpful, but at $100+ an hour, I've looked up several things and done them myself with instructions and pictures on the Internet... like changing the cabin filter... I bought the parts online at a Volvo dealership in Arlington, TX, I believe, and replaced our own several times. The last time it was in the shop, I had them install the rear brake pads and rotors I had bought on sale without tax at the online dealer... cost me $100... the same they charged for replacing the danged cabin filter... a discounted under-$25 part online!
I always carry my own oil... Mobil One... if I'm going to let them change the oil for the van or Volvo... and if there's to be draining of the coolant, I take distilled water. The last time we had that done, it was with the special special machine flushing out the old coolant with new... not just draining whatever will run out from the plug.

Dang! I can just ramble!:rolleyes:

Need to do something else... Wifey's home on the weekend and had been directing me too much.

Wynn:)

[ripley16]

Actually, when I bought my Toyota Matrix back in 2007, I was told by the place I bought it from that Toyotas need a break in period of about 1000 miles. When I asked what is acceptible, I was told to drive it around town as much as I like--just don't hop into it and drive across the country right away.

I now have about 40K miles on it and it has been a great car. No problems.

Same story with my wife's new Corolla... no long period at the same speed, no panic stops, no hard acceleration. Now, if I could just get it to stop glowing in the dark....;)

My new guns on the other hand, I put through the ringer to see whether they work or not. :53:

[wyntrout]

Dang! You must have one of the NEW models.:D

They didn't charge extra, I hope. Did you get a dosimeter to wear while driving??

Wynn:D

[jocko]

wyn. I had a volvo S40 and it was just one super little car, never gave one once of trouble. I do all my own oil service and things like that. just have the equipment to do it all and grew up doing this stuff. I am presently looking at a Volvo S60...

[TheTman]

When I broke in the rebuilt motor, I didn't do it the Harley recommended way, instead using whatever oil they put in it, I rode around at lower speeds until it was thouroughly warmed up then did about 10-15 runs from around 2000 rpm up to redline, then backed off the throttle and let the motor slow the bike down. I did much the same thing when I bought a new Hyundai. The reason for this is supposedly the cross hatching on the cylinder wall is much lighter than it was 20 years ago, and that if you break it in like Harley says too, then you can end up with an oil glaze on your cylinder walls, instead of metal to metal contact. This oil glaze must work fine for the average Harley owner, as it effectively mates the rings to the oil glaze and keeps one from burning oil, but the way I did it supposedly does away with the oil glaze and seats the rings much better. I believe it worked pretty well as it sure doesn't use much oil and it has plenty of power. Also I've never had to add a drop of oil to the Hyundai, but I do let the dealer change the oil every 3,000 miles using a semi-synthetic from one of the major manufacturer's Quaker State or Pennsoil I believe. I forget since I've never had to add oil. On the Harley, after 500 miles or so on the rebuilt motor, I changed to Amsoil and never looked back. It runs cooler, and seems to have a bit more power, but the power part could be all in my head. It will run from sea level to over Monarch Pass at over 11,000 ft, and thats with a Mikuni carb, not fuel injection.
On guns, I don't care who makes it it, if it's a semi, I want 500 flawless rounds through it before I consider it reliable. I'll accept one or two FTF's or FTE's, but after that the counter goes back to zero. I use mostly Walmart 100 round value-packs for break in, they seem very consistant and never had one fail to go boom, and throw in a mag of SD rounds here and there if everthing is going well. I'm closing in on about 300 rounds for my CW45 since I got it back, and do carry it once in awhile. I'll feel much better about carrying it after 200 more rounds. The CW40 has about 700-800 rounds through it, and all have beel flawless after I learned the proper technique to shooting it. It was my frst polymer framed gun and I was limp wristing it and after a couple others shot it with no problems I consulted one of the range officers, and he asked if I mostly shot revolvers and steel pistols, I answered yes, and told me about the poly framed guns having a little more flex than a steel framed gun and that it will really point out any flaws you have in your hold on it and told me the proper way to hold it, with wrist firmly locked in line with the guns handle to keep the frame from moving back with the recoil.

[wyntrout]

I wish I could afford the S60 AWD. Wifey doesn't want to replace her 10-years-old in June S40. It needed a tuneup and I had a bunch of other stuff done less than a year ago and it runs great. We'll see how much longer... about 78K on it now,

The Van will be 7 years old next week and it has around 37,600 miles. Don't travel much with Wifey's limited time off... no long trips to Colorado... 3 days travel each way! It uses almost twic the gas as the Volvo, but much more comfortable and can carry EVERYTHING! Including lots of GUNS and AMMO!

Wynn:D

[jocko]

broke all my Harley's in that way, I run um like I stole it, never ever had an oil burner, I uswe Mobil V-Twin and change ever 5000 miles. I never even check the oil anymore as they use nadda in 5000 miles. Had the oil tested once by a firm in OHio at a cost of $75 nd at 5000 miles it was at 80% of when it was new. They even said u can go 10K if u desire. Being I do my own work, Mobil V-Twin is about $35 a change plus K& N filter. I like the K& N brand as that 17mm nut on the end of the filter makes it a real snap to get off the bike, plus it has 3 times more filtering media than any Harley filter (Harley filter 63" square inches, K & N 164" square inches. amsoil 106" square inches plus 14# bypass valve on K &Y N Vs 10# on HD filters, which means the oils actually filters longer. I seriously doubt if you will evr get any Oil glaze from Amsoil or V-Twin, no matterhow hard you try

[Dietrich]

Well,since this has proven to be such a hot topic, I guess I better weigh in on it...

[jocko]

I wish I could afford the S60 AWD. Wifey doesn't want to replace her 10-years-old in June S40. It needed a tuneup and I had a bunch of other stuff done less than a year ago and it runs great. We'll see how much longer... about 78K on it now,

The Van will be 7 years old next week and it has around 37,600 miles. Don't travel much with Wifey's limited time off... no long trips to Colorado... 3 days travel each way! It uses almost twic the gas as the Volvo, but much more comfortable and can carry EVERYTHING! Including lots of GUNS and AMMO!

Wynn:D

that little engine is just now getting broken in. My 04 A4 audi has 78K on it and it just is getting better every day, it seems. never burns a drop of oil in 10K miles. I can do my own service which saves time and alot of money and I also know the underside air/engine covers are screwed back exactly like they came off. These quick lube shops are notorious for leaving screws out of the polymer engine guards. Plus now those a-holes now want to suck the oil out of tghe engine through the fill tube toeliminate allthat taking stuff off, and for me yet "old school". I want to see it drain until it stops draining. Mer4cedes now doe sthis on alltheir cars, suck it out, them claim it is just as good, I say not for me, soI do it myself. the machine they have is an awesome machine andthe filler tubes arenow designed to be sucked out from the top so probalby someday there will be no drain plugs. There is no drain plug nor filler plug on my Mercedes auto transmission. Nor on my Audi auto trans either, special equipment flushs it almost like a radiator flush... Mopdern technolgy has passed me by a long time ago.

[OldLincoln]

Just realized I hadn't replied to this thread yet. So to answer your question "Shouldn't Kahrs just work right the first time?," my answer is yes and they do. Every Kahr is test fired at the factory and they don't ship if they fail.

A lot of things go bump in the night after they pass the last test and many variables make it hard to understand what or why. I actually believe people when they say something is wrong, but I also suspect somewhere between the test fire and the buyer's first shot another factor was introduced that we don't know about. Is that "something" Kahrs fault? I don't know the answer but you can rest assured it did fire the first time it was supposed to.

[Quickdraw]

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/quickdraw3/detour.png

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/quickdraw3/Deer-popcorn.gif

[ltxi]

Absolutely. The ONLY time I have ever had a revolver fail to fire is when I pulled it thru the 7th time and hit a chamber that had already fired. As much as I love self loaders I still bring our my wheelguns regularily and have a blast.

Using this a launch for comment on all posts....

--- I remember in 1953 going with my Dad to pick up his new Ford. It had a 3K/90 day warranty. This is apropos of nothing except to note how far we've come in our, realistic, expectations.

--- MMA's are not and never will be failure free. The more complex they are, the higher the probability of failure. The better/more "tightly" built they are, the higher the probability of failure during their wear in period.

--- The only time I've ever had a revolver fail to fire when I wanted it to is after I did something "gunsmith" stupid to it. In a truly odd coincidence, I actually had this thought in mind when for the first time in well over a year I left to run errands this morning carrying my old friend, 'Nam era M60 instead of my u&c PM9.

[CJB]

I toured the engine plant at HD a few years ago

Ah great strides taken, but still not world class.

Talking to Dan over at HRHS, he was explaining how they STILL run up to .003 variance in diameter from top to bottom, and not always tighter at the top!

On NRHS's setup they can correct that, and correct the uneven concentricity to about .0005 - repeatable to about double that when going from torque plates to torque plates or to cases and heads.

HD has made huge production strides. Absolutely huge. They still run a little coarse (280g) on the surface finish of a new cylinder, and suggest the same for a hone or bore/hone. Considering some engines come lapped to a near mirror polish on the bores, it makes you wonder how things work at all on the venerable V-twin. But they do, and quite nicely too. But you take things that they DO do very tight now... valve guides, crank bearings, big end and pinion bearnings... very very world class. And the transmissions are now fully world class, to the point that the XL's no longer have/need-to-have trap doors to get the tranny in there. Very tight helical gearing, overkill on bearings... they're getting there. Now if they only could do something about XL cams being the sloppy and noisy @#$@#$. Then again, I'm used to an engine that sounds sorta "Singer Sewing" down there.

[Rainman48314]

I believe Kahr's are extremely accurate and have tighter tolerances from the factory than some other manufacturers.
The upper end guns come with match barrels.
I think Kimber's are similar.
With match parts, and tight tolerances, you're looking at significant beak-in period.

Update:
This is directly from a Kimber manual -
Kimbers firearms are quality custom pieces.
Our firearms are hand fitted to tight tolerances.
For proper Break-in of the firearm shoot 400-500 rounds
of Quality Factory Ball (230g. FMJ) Ammunition.
Cleaning and lubricating the gun every 100-150 rounds.

The Solo seems to be Kimber's exception. They claim 24 (twenty-four) premium rounds and it is broken-in!

My M&P 9 and my Ruger LC9 did not require a break-in period, which is to say, they went 100% out of the box. My Sig P238 needed a factory ramp polish and about 200 rounds thereafter. My GSG 1911-22 was 100% out the box on its first 350 rounds, ditto my Beretta Neos 22, ditto my Kimber Target Rimfire in 17 Mach 2. Win most, lose a couple.

[OldLincoln]

I bought a revolver once when I was in Spain. Seems like I got it for about $9 in the conversion and I paid about $8 too much. Fail was it's middle name and it had the bad habit of the cylinder falling out when using double action. I could shoot it single action but the hammer wiggled side to side so I'd kinda line it up to hit the cartridge before pulling the trigger. I played with it for kicks for a bit then just tossed it.

The only revolver I'd buy today is one of those very large caliber mag guns and I'd give that to my son. He's a nature photographer and does carry a Glock .40 but when he goes into the high back country alone I tend to worry a bit. At least I got him a Spot satellite messenger device so he can report in and call for SOS rescue.

[CJB]

I had a few Colt revolvers in the 90's that were fairly terrible. You'd have to pull the double action pretty fast in order to get the inertia up to keep the cylinder spinning into its locked position. Older Smith's and all Rugers have been fine for me though. Down to just the SP-101 .38 3", but... its a keeper, very early production.

[Rainman48314]

I hear a jocko and Porsche story coming on... ;-)

Sent using TapatalkMy one and only Porsche, a 1987, had a broken water pump at 32,000 miles and before 40k miles the driver (cloth)seat split. Not real impressive. Had better luck with a sucession of 3 series BMWs. I still lust after a new Porsche.

[wayneo1]

Yes they should be perfect for the money we spend. But the problem the small gun has thats different from cars, tvs etc is part of the equation is the person doing the shooting and the ammo being used, two things Khar doesnt have control over but with a small gun are important. So I have no problem buying Khar in fact my MK9 has been fine right out of the box.

[allglock]

Sometimes the truth hurts - LOL!
""I was also at the range with my best friend. He purchased a Generation 4 Glock 17 on the same day I bought my M&P. He didn't have my same luck as he experienced multiple FTFs (failures to feed) and one FTE (failure to eject). Photos follow."

http://policelink.monster.com/topics/73315-glock-17-gen4-issues/posts

Most Glock issues are do to operator error I.E. Limpwristing. especially with the G17.;)

[wyntrout]

I think "limp-wristing" is a catch-all cop out for a gun not being flexible in the grip required. I think it's usually a GUN thing, not really limp-wristing.

My PM45 was easy to shoot. I held it loose or one-handed and didn't have a problem... until after the second trip back to Kahr when they replaced the slide as part of the fix. Then it became a bear to shoot. I had to really concentrate on a hard, braced grip... straight, in-line and all of that and still have a FTF or stovepipe once in a while. I considered it unreliable for CCW since I couldn't count on it firing from any position or aspect, if you will.

I got some help and sent the gun back to Kahr to replace the BARELY visible Left side slide with a better engraved one like it had originally. When I got it back, after a couple of trips to the range it started to really tear up magazines... on the second range trip. I think that I fired 171 rounds before giving up because something was going on with the magazines. One was real squishy and hard to load. I could see it was cracking at the top rears. Evidently 3 of the others were as well. When I got home with better light, I could see 4 were really bad and one was on the way and there was only one of the six that appeared unharmed... so far. So I called Kahr and sent all six mags and the pistol back. There were 4 different types bought on several occasions... an extra 6-round extended grip that was part of my original package, a TP45 7-rounder, and two 7-round extended base mags. Kahr was able to duplicate the problem with the GUN, and the only fix came with a new frame. They, of course, replaced all six of my magazines.

When I got my PM45 back from it's 4th trip to the factory, it was again an all-aspect shooter... something I consider critical for a CCW weapon. It may be called on to fire without malfunction with a weak hand, one-handed, or unusual position and grip. I'm sure Boomer will do this. I don't expect to have time to assume some range-type stance and take careful aim... I'm most likely going to be trying to reach cover and keep from getting shot, while throwing a few rounds, situation permitting, to keep the BG's aim off.

I'm not planning on the Redcoats tactics of the Revolutionary War of presenting the best target possible to the enemy and slugging it out face-to-face with bullets!:eek:

If YOUR EDC acts finnicky about your grip and "limp-wristing" is a problem, you will probably have the same problem in a gunfight with the adrenalin pumping and your fine motor skills gone.

Jus' sayin'. YMMV. It's something to think about while you can.

Just because it works fine when you do everything perfect, may not be good enough when your life or your loved ones' is on the line.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

My one and only Porsche, a 1987, had a broken water pump at 32,000 miles and before 40k miles the driver (cloth)seat split. Not real impressive. Had better luck with a sucession of 3 series BMWs. I still lust after a new Porsche.

more cloth seats in any porsche today. haven't seen that in years. maybe thats wy they dropped that to. "lusting" is bad for your health:p

as u know water pumps are not supposed to go out either but being a gun owner, sh-t happens..

When I bought my new Porsche at 600 miles one moring it refused to run. Myd ealer (110miles away) sent over a enclosed slider type truck. they loaded it up. took it back and found a sensor "something" that wasout. fixed it kand had it brought back tome in two days. A couple months later Porsche called me and apologized for what had happened and said we would like to send u a check for $600 not a gift certificate but a real live check_) for ur inconvenience, would that be OK. Duh!!!
A year later my driver side seat belt retractor failed to retract all the way. I took it over to my dealer and they installed a new retractor andI was back home by mid day, again a coule months later, Porsche again called and apologized and sent me a $300 gift certificate. Duh!!!

sincethen the car has never burped once and runs like a scared deer and nothing as beautiful IMO as a Porsche. WhenI orderedmine I had a custom paint job did on it by Porsche for an addtional $4500. I have alot of carbon fiber in my porsche. I don't track the car either, just something that all my life I "lusted" fopr sand when I retired Isaid FOKK it, I am going to order it theway I want it. Took 5months to get it over to this country..

[jocko]

CJB, no doubt if you want a sewing machine sound, u don't want a halrey. I accept that . Wouldn't throw a leg over anything else and their are alot of great Other bikes out there, so I try not to compare as to me it really doesn't matter.

[jocko]

My one and only Porsche, a 1987, had a broken water pump at 32,000 miles and before 40k miles the driver (cloth)seat split. Not real impressive. Had better luck with a sucession of 3 series BMWs. I still lust after a new Porsche.

want to dissapoint Mickey Kahr:blah:

[Rainman48314]

more cloth seats in any porsche today. haven't seen that in years. maybe thats wy they dropped that to. "lusting" is bad for your health:p

as u know water pumps are not supposed to go out either but being a gun owner, sh-t happens..

When I bought my new Porsche at 600 miles one moring it refused to run. Myd ealer (110miles away) sent over a enclosed slider type truck. they loaded it up. took it back and found a sensor "something" that wasout. fixed it kand had it brought back tome in two days. A couple months later Porsche called me and apologized for what had happened and said we would like to send u a check for $600 not a gift certificate but a real live check_) for ur inconvenience, would that be OK. Duh!!!
A year later my driver side seat belt retractor failed to retract all the way. I took it over to my dealer and they installed a new retractor andI was back home by mid day, again a coule months later, Porsche again called and apologized and sent me a $300 gift certificate. Duh!!!

sincethen the car has never burped once and runs like a scared deer and nothing as beautiful IMO as a Porsche. WhenI orderedmine I had a custom paint job did on it by Porsche for an addtional $4500. I have alot of carbon fiber in my porsche. I don't track the car either, just something that all my life I "lusted" fopr sand when I retired Isaid FOKK it, I am going to order it theway I want it. Took 5months to get it over to this country..They sure treated you right. Maybe they heard how many cars you keep around.:) I want one even more now. Ever consider going to Germany and picking it up there. I read that you tour the factory and they do a nice lunch. I think you save enough to pay for a two week vacation.

[MikeyKahr]

When I bought my new Porsche...

I knew I felt it coming on. :D

[QuercusMax]

You guys and your German cars. You probably have Sigs and Walthers too, but aren't telling anyone. When I get off my horse I'm in my Ford Super-Duty. Gas is for girls.

Oops, I forgot this is the KahrTalk board, not CarTalk. Sorry.