Accuracy with my Kahr

[QuercusMax]

I'm still struggling with this, which is the main issue I joined KahrTalk in the first place. Of the 6 handguns I own, my Kahr MK9 Elite is the only one with which I am just not able to shoot accurately, even now after 6 months of using it from time to time.

Initially I thought it was because the front sight was off, and after adjusting it things got a little better, but my accuracy is still embarrassing.

I love the quality and feel of the Kahr, but it's just not working well for me. And at this point, I think it must be me and not the Kahr.

I put another 200 rounds through the MK9 at the range today, with mediocre results at 10 yards. The range officer today was an old-timer who clearly had a lot of shooting experience, so I let him try my MK9. Although he got somewhat better results than I did, he said that his accuracy was affected by a trigger pull that was very long and a grip that was very narrow (both of which are typical Kahr characteristics). He also said that it was difficult to rack due to very stiff springs, but that is not an issue for me.

The MK9, with its 3" barrel and short sight radius, is clearly not a target gun. It's meant for portability and very close range action in personal defense situations. So perhaps my concern over my ability to be accurate with it is misplaced. Yet my Kimber Ultra CDP also has a 3" barrel, and I am *much* more accurate with it at the same distance. But it also has a wider grip and a trigger that is much more to my liking.

I might try adding some wood grips to widen the grip slightly, but at this point I have to say that the little Kahr is not working well for me. I don't really need a small piece for concealed carry, so I think I'm going to focus elsewhere for now. This is probably a great example of what can happen when you buy a gun that you have not tried out first.

I think I'll lock it up for now and try it again later.

[Rainman48314]

I'm still struggling with this, which is the main issue I joined KahrTalk in the first place. Of the 6 handguns I own, my Kahr MK9 Elite is the only one with which I am just not able to shoot accurately, even now after 6 months of using it from time to time.

Initially I thought it was because the front sight was off, and after adjusting it things got a little better, but my accuracy is still embarrassing.

I love the quality and feel of the Kahr, but it's just not working well for me. And at this point, I think it must be me and not the Kahr.

I put another 200 rounds through the MK9 at the range today, with mediocre results at 10 yards. The range officer today was an old-timer who clearly had a lot of shooting experience, so I let him try my MK9. Although he got somewhat better results than I did, he said that his accuracy was affected by a trigger pull that was very long and a grip that was very narrow (both of which are typical Kahr characteristics). He also said that it was difficult to rack due to very stiff springs, but that is not an issue for me.

The MK9, with its 3" barrel and short sight radius, is clearly not a target gun. It's meant for portability and very close range action in personal defense situations. So perhaps my concern over my ability to be accurate with it is misplaced. Yet my Kimber Ultra CDP also has a 3" barrel, and I am *much* more accurate with it at the same distance. But it also has a wider grip and a trigger that is much more to my liking.

I might try adding some wood grips to widen the grip slightly, but at this point I have to say that the little Kahr is not working well for me. I don't really need a small piece for concealed carry, so I think I'm going to focus elsewhere for now. This is probably a great example of what can happen when you buy a gun that you have not tried out first.

I think I'll lock it up for now and try it again later.I see two issues.

1. You only shoot it "from time to time"

2. You shoot at greater than SD range. As an example. 90% of my practice with a PM9 or any carry gun is at 5 yards. The rest is at 7 yards.

Address these two issues and add a Quick-Grip and you will improve.

[Bawanna]

You really can't compare a Kahr with a Kimber 1911, two completely different animals. That's not a bad thing really.

You said it yourself, the kahr is a compact, concealable up close and personal get off me defense gun. For that purpose it does a really good job of filling the needs. The trigger is very safe and fool proof for pocket carry or any of the other methods of carry a very well concealed gun.

It will never run with a 1911 for accuracy although some good shooter can really make music with their kahrs, I'm unfortunately not one of them but I proficient enough with my PM45 that it goes with me everywhere when others may be left behind.

Your right, it might not be for you, no shame there, no gun will work for everyone. I do encourage you to keep with it. You'll bond eventually.

[Barth]

It saddens me to hear that.
The gun is for up close and personal, point blank, work really.
I'm not sure what kind of accuracy you're looking for.
Combat accuracy is putting all your shots in center mass.
Not a ragged single hole.
The double action pull can give some people fits.
It's very much like a smooth DA revolver to me.
You might try waiting to really squeeze the gun until later in
the long stroke.
You may be fighting yourself and squeezing too hard.
A smooth squeeze of the trigger is needed through the long travel.
Also, the two finger grip can be mentally unsettling.
In some martial arts that two finger grip is actually the strongest.
You may want to practice dry fire.
Squeezing the trigger while keeping the sights on target.
There are charts with suggestions on how to adjust your grip ... to resolve shooting issues.
Finally different brands, and particularly weights, of bullets can have an effect.

I'd like to believe with practice anyone can shoot most any gun well.
But must admit that Beretta and H&K I can't seem to hit anything with.
Some seem to have an ergonomic curse with certain guns

Good luck.
I need to get back to Fist of Fury - LOL!
http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/ab3219/fist_of_fury_b.jpg

Update:
This is what I call combat, sight picture, double tap accuracy. (MK40)
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo32/e7/bf/0e86c3802d6c__1314549436000.jpg

[TomMc]

I have a simple recommendation for you to try. First, beef up the grip just a bit with the Hogue rubber grip overlay and experiment with your trigger finger by moving a little closer to the tip versus the joint. I've found the Kahr's thin grip causes a bit of over compensation on the trigger and a tendency to " pull " off line. I used to have the same issue versus my other handguns and now I find my P9 as accurate as anything I have. And, as Rainman implied--more rounds won't hurt.

[JFootin]

I don't really need a small piece for concealed carry, so I think I'm going to focus elsewhere for now. This is probably a great example of what can happen when you buy a gun that you have not tried out first.

I think I'll lock it up for now and try it again later.

Aw, you don't want to clutter your safe up with that blunderbuss! I'll take it off your hands for $300 right now (or actually 2 1/2 weeks from now, when I get paid).

[Barth]

This is probably a great example of what can happen when you buy a gun that you have not tried out first.

Yup Yup.
You should try everything in this thread first.
And it seems like the stainless Kahr's do hold their value well.
So you shouldn't lose too much If you do decide to sell. And take your time doing it.

I'm not sure this helps.
But I bought a H&K USP compact 45 without renting it.
Stupid as I know better. And two of my friends were buying the same
gun! So if I was patient, and waited, I could have tried it out.
Instead I special ordered it with night sights, stainless slide and no external safety.
Got the gun and I was miserable with it.
Absolutely embarrassing.
I hated it with a fiery passion and felt sick to my stomach.
The happy ending is I talked about it to a range officer.
And he bought the gun from me for cash the same price I paid for it.
Didn't lose a penny on the deal!
Somethings just work out - LOL!

[Jeremiah/Az]

You might try shooting from a good solid rest, I like sand bags, to see if it is you or the gun. I never shoot the little guns @ more than 7 yards. Have you tried different ammo?

[TheTman]

If you're trying to stage the trigger and get it on target right before the trigger breaks, I found that just one long firm squeeze works better, and let the trigger break when it does, just keeping the gun on target best you can. I'm kind of shaky but that seems to work pretty well for me. I tried staging the trigger and getting it right on target before I thought the trigger was going to break, and that didn't help at all. The trigger is so smooth it's very hard for me to tell when it's going to break.
What kind of accuracy are you getting? Embarrasing to one guy may mean pretty well to another.
For self defense, you don't really want a tight little group, you want the shots spread around to hit more vital organs and give them more places to bleed out. That was advice I read in some self defense article.
Try shooting at 5-7 yards then move out to 10 as you get better, and try shooting it a little more often instead of time to time, both were mentioned previously.
If you are embarrased by the accuracy, you may not want to shoot it much, especially if others are watching. Try going when the range is less busy. I know I don't shoot as well when people are watching.
It may just be too small of a handle for you if you have large hands. Try adding some girth to it with bicycle tubes or something and see if that helps.
Best of luck to you.

[QuercusMax]

Thanks to everyone for all the support and advice. A goldmine of information came forth that I am sure will help me - and hopefully that others might find useful as well.

Despite ending the day discouraged with my results, I'm not ready to give up on the little guy yet (so sorry, not for sale!)

This is a weapon for self-defense, so I accept that expecting it (and me) to perform well at 10 yards might be unrealistic, at least without lots of practice, as several of you pointed out. I'll start out closer next time.

I did try resting it on a sand bag at one point yesterday as Jeremiah/AZ suggested, and that did improve my results quite a bit. And since I first got it, I have been doing some dry firing, which also improved my results compared to my first 2 outings with it.

Several of you suggested that I take a different approach to the trigger, which I am sure is part of my issue. The RO made some similar suggestions. From the very first I found the Kahr trigger to be ... different, and I suspect I am still over-compensating as TomMc suggested. My hands are not large but I have long fingers and thus I believe that the slim grip is difficult for me, so I am going to try beefing it up a bit as suggested.

And I am going to practice more.

Many threads on KahrTalk have discussed how different people have different experiences with different guns, which is so true. Earlier Barth mentioned that he doesn't have good luck with Beretta, but I have 2 Berettas and can do well with both of them, including the 92FS I had with me at the range yesterday along with my Kahr (admittedly the Beretta has a much longer sight radius, and a much longer and fatter grip due to being double-stack).

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I'll post back here after I try again (might be a little while).

[slowpoke]

Kahr’s are not target guns although some get really good with them. I’ve got two kahr’s and I shoot both of them well enough for SD.
At 5 – 10 feet they both make one ragged hole.
At 20 ft I get around 2-3 in groups. Gets worse as distance increases but I’ve never been any good with little guns anyhow.
The way I see it, theses little Kahr will shoot better than I can and I can shoot them good ‘nuff for close range self defense.
I imagine that if someone clamped one into a Ransom Rest the results would surprise a lot of people.

[TheTman]

Glad to see you're not giving up on the little pistol. If you can empty a mag into the "kill zone" of a B-27 silhouette at 7 feet, then you're doing allright. Might not be a tight little group like you may want, but that would get the job done in a situation. Have you tried the 7 round magazine with the extended grip to give you more to hold on too? Not the best for concealed carry, but if you get comfortable with your groups using that, then you could move down to the 6 round mag and start practicing with that. That's a damn fine little pistol, wish I could afford one. I'll have to go with the CM9 if I decide I want a 9 that small.

[TomMc]

In the "for what its worth" catagory, I put a Crimson Trace on my P9--Both for Self defense as much as refining my trigger pull by using the laser to help me perfect a steady long pull as tmanski described in his post. The latter has given me good results (without the laser). I put 250 rounds thru the gun today and had very decent groups at 10 and 15 yards.

[JodyH]

Kahr’s are not target guns although some get really good with them.
My Kahr K9 is as inherently accurate as any pistol I own.
I was doing some "walk-back" drills on a 8" steel plate the other day and made it out to 65 yards before I missed a single shot.
My "walk-back" drill consists of shooting 5 rounds at the steel plate at 15 yards, if you make all your hits you walk back 5 yards and do it again.
Keep shooting 5 rounds and moving back 5 yards until you miss.
The only guns I can do the drill as good/better than the K9 is my H&K P2000 or P30.
My record is 75 yards with the P30.
I've made it to 45 yards with my PM9.
The majority of "accuracy issues" with handguns are the loose nut behind the trigger.

[royaluno]

I have the k9 and only shoot once in a while. I find it Very accurate comparing to what other people at the line are shooting(mostly larger pistols). And I am not the best shot. I acually have better groups the faster I pull the trigger vs trying to stage the trigger pull. I have let other people shoot it and they all love it. One guy (man giving private instruction to a girl) shot a one hole group. I have never shot the mk9. so mabe this does not count. I really enjoy shooting it.

[les strat]

I am the same way with my j-frame. I hate shooting it around other folks cause I can't hit the broad side of a barn mast 10 ft. But I love the thing.

[CJB]

I'm not great, but acceptably good with PM45. Just got the PM9.... had issues. Not the gun - its me. Learing curve. You have to REALLY THINK about whats going on....where the sights are going as you pull that double action trigger backward.

1. Dry firing helps. You'll get to see how the sights become misaligned when the trigger breaks. Change grip, trigger finger movement and tip location... work it out so you have minimal sight movement. Every pistol is different for that. You need to learn the guns behavior

2. Practice SLOW fire, deliberate, slow... loading ONE shot at a time. Very deliberate, slow.... so as to not get in any hurry. Concentrate on clean pulls. Dont worry about where things go on the target. Worry about CLEAN trigger pulls with no disruption of the sight picture.

3. Then move on to full magazins, SLOW fire. Put the gun on the bench a few seconds between each shot.

4. Then more paced fire, maybe one shot every 10 seconds. Then every 5 seconds.... you'll be gaining the muscle memory that way... learning to crawl, then walk then run....

[QuercusMax]

Thanks CJB - that's good advice, and consistent with what the RO advised to me last weekend.

One particular point stood out to me: Don't just load up a full magazine and blast away - making the same mistake more times doesn't help. CJB recommends one round - the RO recommended "2 or 3" - but the concept is sound: be deliberate with every shot, and try to learn and adjust. It's just too easy to fire off the whole magazine, even if it only holds 6 or 7 rounds like most Kahrs.

With bigger/longer guns, it was always easy for me to be quite accurate. The Kahr, on the other hand, poses more of a test, and thus could actually be a better learning experience. Time will tell, at least for me.

[Ubaldo99]

Excellent advice. I've struggled with my CM9 with some of the same issues itemized by QMax. The suggestions provided in this thread will be a big help to me. Thanks.

[Bill K]

I've decided for myself not to put to much weight on sight shooting and square range practice. Please understand that I'm not knocking it and do really believe it is important as a foundation. But [you knew that was coming] I don't believe it is the best practice for civilian SD purposes. I advocate a large part of practice time on clear, draw, point and shoot at very short distances. The sequence can be done safely with snap caps, laser training tool, regular gun laser or, my favorite, AirSoft. I would shoot one handed way more than two handed. Live fire practice at short distances are most safely done from a low ready position.

[QuercusMax]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but this continues to be an issue for me - although I am happy to report some improvement.

Taking advantage of some rare slack time over the holiday period - and the fact that this year has been unseasonably dry and warm (for the mountains) - I finally got in some practice time. I have never claimed to be Deadeye D***, and I don't practice shooting nearly often enough, but I can usually get back in the groove with any of my current guns after a magazine or two. Except my MK9 Elite.

Since my earlier comments in this thread, I have been dry firing the MK9 a lot to practice my grip and trigger pull. (I spend a lot of time on the phone during the day :phone:, so it's a good thing that people on the other end can't see what I am doing some of the time!)

This past week I went out several times with my BuckMark, Kimber Ultra CDP, and MK9. Accuracy with the .22 was great as usual; pretty good with the Kimber as well; and while my accuracy with the Kahr was far worse than the others - it had improved noticeably since last time!

But the results still were off: Shooting from 7 yards, I was nearly dead-on horizontally (virtually all holes were within 1/2" of vertical line through center of target), but almost all were low (except for a few that I purposely aimed high). Several targets had vertical lines of 9mm holes going straight down from the bullseye.

My guesses:
- Perhaps gripping too tightly?
- Grips too slim for me? I am still using the stock rubber grips but have some wood ones and others that I will try at some point.
- Flinching? (I don't do this with any other gun, but I still don't have a good feeling for exactly where the MK9 trigger breaks, even after lots of dry and live firing.)

My Kahr still seems like a bit of a bucking bronco to me, so further suggestions for helping tame it are welcome.

PS. I didn't realize that the nickname for "Richard" would be auto-censored. I wonder if it also does that for "Osama" or "Hussein"? :confused:

[jocko]

buckmark and kimnber trigger systemns are just apples and oranges to any kahr. both basical;ly single action guns, unlike the kahrs which are as close to a double action revolver as one can get. Trust me i shootmy PM9 and MY6 K9 horribly compred tomy G19 or my Ruger MK11. I accept that for the design of the gun. If I want a tack driver, I certainly dn't grab my kahrs, If I want a defense gun that is with me 24/7, then my PM9 is certainly myt gun of choice. So IMO ur no different than 90% of us kahr owners.

Kazhr triggers are so so smooth that figuring out the "greak" p;oint in my opinion is a mute point that maybe you sold not be trying to even do, for it is really not there .

[Husky44]

A couple of thoughts, FWIW:

1) Regarding the low shots: I had a similar problem during my defensive handgun course, and the instructors were ALL OVER me, because what I was doing (subconsciously) was focusing so much on accuracy, that as soon as the round fired, I was looking to see where it hit, and in so doing, was actually pushing the barrel down so I could look over the top of the sights to see the target. It's a bad habit I still slip into, if I'm not careful. Something to watch for...

2) You said in your original post that you don't really need a small CC weapon. While I completely understand not backing down from a challenge, I'd ask if this is really worth the effort you're putting into it? I'm selling my Kahr because it's not the right gun for me. Can I shoot it well? Yes, if I work at it. Do I want an SD gun that I have to work at, or one that I shoot well naturally? For me, it was the latter. I'm not a gun collector; guns to me are a tool. Just like any other tool, I want one that is is reliable, and does the job well that I need it do, with a minimum of effort. Not saying that I don't (or that anyone else shouldn't) train to be extremely proficient, just that I don't want to expend a lot of my training time just trying to get to "acceptable", because the gun doesn't fit me well, for whatever reason.

That's also why I don't play golf. Anything you have to work that hard at, just to not suck enough that you're not ticked off the whole time you're doing it, isn't something I want to invest my time in.

If this isn't any help at all, it did allow me to get my daily philosophizing over with. :)

Happy New Year!

[jocko]

we call it peeking. I seen this alot when shooting archery back many years ago. and that will produce low shots with a bow every time Sub consciously one does not realize heis doing it until someone of knowledge is there wqatchging him. Had I had a video camera back 35 years ago I wouldhave caught my self in my ways of error.

snap caps does alot towards what Husky44 is also referring to. It will show one the errors of their ways without the bang thing happening. But they should be inserted in the magazinbe with live rounds so as u know not where they are either. A magazine full of snap caps producing nothing IMO, as i know what every round is, Mixed in with a magazine, will indeed show one his shoot8ing errors without a video camera. It certainly has with me, now if I can just figure out how to solve my shooting issues, no doube my accuracy will get bnetter. I don't want to change guns to get that si8ngle action type trigger for that extra accuracy and give up the over all safety of my kahrs are designed for.


certaibnl we don't read of any top notch shooters in the country winning any awards shooting a kahr but I bet mamyh stuff those little suckers in their front pockets when going out though. My 2 cents.

like tryning to feel your VW should run with the porsches. accept each for what it does and be done with it..

[muggsy]

Keep practicing Max. At ten yards I can keep all of my shots inside of a coffee cup with my CM9. Mastering the trigger is the biggest issue, but you'll soon learn to love it.

[jocko]

I can do that at 7 yards with a 32 ounce coffee cup. Does that count???

[onegun]

Trigger control is one reason I only shoot double action. When you do that you get pretty good with practice. I shoot anywhere from 3 to 25 yards and feel comfortable with the accuracy of my autos at that range. All my autos are DAO including the DAK SIGs. All except one of my revolvers are DAO. The one exception is a 4" Ruger Redhawk, but I only shoot it DA. My favorite revolver is a NY1 DAO 3" K frame but I don 't shoot it much as my wife had adopted it. Point is...going from one type trigger to another is tough!

[ORSalesRep]

I have an MK9 Elite with Crimson Laser Grips and Mag-Na-Ported. The grips do add to the overall thickness of the grip, so maybe that has helped. I always disable the laser when going to the range and never practice with it. I strictly use the night sights and it is every bit as accurate as my other hanguns out to 15 yards or little farther. I find it very easy to shoot and love it. It is my favorite of my current handguns. Right now I have a Kahr P9, Kahr P380, Kahr MK9 Elite, Ruger LCR 38 spl and an FN Five-Seven. Just ordered a custom Wilson Combat 1911 in 45 auto and that will be the first 1911 I have ever owned, but they won't get it to me before 9 months. They quoted me 9-12 months :-(
Anyway, try sticking with your MK9, it is a fantastic handgun and I don't think that you will regret it, once you work through your accuracy issues.

[muggsy]

I can do that at 7 yards with a 32 ounce coffee cup. Does that count???

For you Jocko, anything counts. :)

[QuercusMax]

I appreciate all the advice and comments.

I'm sure my expectations for accuracy from the Kahr with its short sight radius and different trigger action from all my other guns are not reasonable, but I hear you all on the need for practice, so that's why I intend to keep trying (plus, I'm stubborn).

I also realize that going from one trigger type to another is difficult, and that exacerbates the issues I have had. Perhaps I should just concentrate on one type. Unfortunately, I have a number of guns that I like to use, and am reluctant to give up on any of them.

My first handgun (years ago) was a single action Colt, and after getting used to that, anything else is still difficult. I must have been imprinted with certain reflexes or muscle actions as a result. While it's "different," my little Kahr still appeals to me.

The suggestion about "peeking" causing the low shots is a very interesting thing that I have not heard before. I suspect I am doing exactly that, so next time I go out with the Kahr I'll try to address it. Thanks a lot for that one.

Again, I really appreciate the comments and suggestions here, and extend my thanks to jocko, Husky44, muggsy, onegun, and ORSalesRep.

[JFootin]

Try this. Within SD range, practice point and shoot. Hold the gun at chest height, don't look at the sights at all but focus on the target. By instinct, point at the target and shoot a round. If it is to the right, try to adjust to the left and shoot again, never referring to the sights or raising the gun to face level. Keep doing that until you develop the instinct to point and shoot where you want the bullet to hit. I think you'll be surprised at how accurate you can become doing it this way. And think of the advantage you will have in a SD situation once you have mastered this technique.

If you want to see how accurate someone can become doing point and shoot, check out this thread about Bob Munden: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7948&highlight=bob+munden

[tv_racin_fan]

I appreciate all the advice and comments.

I'm sure my expectations for accuracy from the Kahr with its short sight radius and different trigger action from all my other guns are not reasonable, but I hear you all on the need for practice, so that's why I intend to keep trying (plus, I'm stubborn).

I also realize that going from one trigger type to another is difficult, and that exacerbates the issues I have had. Perhaps I should just concentrate on one type. Unfortunately, I have a number of guns that I like to use, and am reluctant to give up on any of them.

Don't give up on any of them, BUT decide which one you intend to carry and work on that one the most. Maybe only take it and one other to the range or at least take that one to the range every trip.

My first handgun (years ago) was a single action Colt, and after getting used to that, anything else is still difficult. I must have been imprinted with certain reflexes or muscle actions as a result. While it's "different," my little Kahr still appeals to me.

The suggestion about "peeking" causing the low shots is a very interesting thing that I have not heard before. I suspect I am doing exactly that, so next time I go out with the Kahr I'll try to address it. Thanks a lot for that one.

Could very well be that you are doing what my wife does. I wouldn't call it peeking but for some reason just at the end of that long trigger pull she is pulling the barrel down. Much more pronounced when she is trying very hard to keep the sights aligned on the target but there even when she just pull the gun up in front of her face and pulls the trigger.

Again, I really appreciate the comments and suggestions here, and extend my thanks to jocko, Husky44, muggsy, onegun, and ORSalesRep.

I have been trying to teach my wife to forget the sights. Just pull the gun up and point it in the direction of her target and pull the trigger in a hurry. Even have suggested I just take the sights off so that she isn't tempted to aim. (one very respected teacher said I had the right idea) More than likely in a defence scenario she is going to be deadly close to her assailant. She wont have the time to carefully aim and control her trigger pull.

[Popeye]

When I first got my PM9 do to it size I found out that I was not pulling the trigger straight back. I was pushing it to the right a bit. (Left Handed) What I found worked for me was I had to make it feel like I was pulling it towards my hand till I got a little more familiar with shooting it. Have to be honest that didn't come over night. The size of the pistol, the long trigger pull had me going for a while. I was mostly used to shooting larger mostly hammer fired pistols. I still do better with the larger pistols but I do Ok with the kahr. I think I also might have been expecting to much in the way of accuracy also. I have to sent a note to myself reminding myself these are SD pistols not target pistols.

[QuercusMax]

I have been trying to teach my wife to forget the sights. Just pull the gun up and point it in the direction of her target and pull the trigger in a hurry. Even have suggested I just take the sights off so that she isn't tempted to aim. (one very respected teacher said I had the right idea) More than likely in a defence scenario she is going to be deadly close to her assailant. She wont have the time to carefully aim and control her trigger pull.

It seems to me that this, and the "point and shoot" idea that JFootin mentioned, must be the right idea for a SD weapon, because you won't get time to carefully aim and won't be shooting from a long distance. Some SD guns, e.g. the Colt New Agent, don't even have real sights for this very reason.

I have concluded that the frustration I have felt about my MK9 are because:

I have mistakenly :crazy: been treating it as a target gun, because most of my experience has been with single action, long-barrelled guns, while the MK9 is for a totally different purpose. As a result, I think I have been trying to make it do things it was not intended for - a recipe for disappointment.
The Kahr trigger action is so different from everything else I own or have used, that I need to keep working at getting to know it. Good thing I am stubborn.


Next time I go out with my Kahr (just snowed, so that might be a while now), I am going to try out "point and shoot," which is a more realistic use for it than what I have been doing.

[jocko]

well u certainly hit the nail o the head Max. most would not acknowledge what you just stated. I think kahrs will shoot umin the same hole but most cannot do it, so as u know IT IS THE GUNS FAULT. Kahrs are what they are a close up self defense gun that will practice ucan and will get very good and very fast at hitting ur target at 7 yards and under all day long. In a shtf SCENARIO THE SIGHTS wil never be seen, so train the way ur gonna fight if necessary. I am very goodat 7 yards and under on the FBI "Q" silhouette target which as u know is body cavity size with no bulles eye. that is my training target. I shoot for COM but have no problems keepng them all in that big target. mind u groups are nothing to write home about but again I ain't sitting there aligning sights and pulling the trigger like there is no pressures on me either.

when I want to go toto the range and hit something at 15 yards that is kinda small, I grab my trusty tuned G19 and it does the job. If it road in my front pocket with the ease and concealagbility my PM9 can and does, it would proballby be there now. it is my home "queen" and a damn good one to.:banplease:

[Armybrat]

Well, out of the 40 or so shootin' far arms in my collection, I can't hit much of anything with them at the range. But that's why I've always regarded my SD hadguns as point & shooters.

Max nailed it, at least for me.

[Husky44]

Not wanting to start a debate, because I'm certainly no expert, and I'm sure there are a couple dozen out there on the interweb who are making bank teaching point and shoot technique, but I do want to offer a counter-perspective, for consideration:

While I agree that fine motor skills tend to vacate the body under duress, you can accomplish a lot of good in those situations if you've drilled the crap out of certain functions, instilling muscle memory. While point and shoot techniques employ the same approach, my perspective is that the more I practice marksmanship fundamentals, the more I'm going to engrain that muscle memory, to the point that I find that without finding my sights on the draw stroke, but keeping my eyes focused on my target, my gun will arrive at full extension with my sights aligned to my line of sight. Now, I've got a good basic aim, and have the opportunity to determine if I have the luxury to fine-tune, or do is speed more critical than accuracy due to the threat?

The Army teaches the principle of reflexive fire, but only after extensive periods of basic and advanced marksmanship, so that you're employing the same fundamentals, just in an abbreviated format. I don't want to create two memory patterns, one for accuracy, and another one with the gun in a different position for speed.

My $.02. Be gentle, I'm a well-meaning idiot. ;)

[BrewerGeorge]

Took me 4 or 5 boxes to get the feel of the CM9's trigger. I was all over the place until I did. I kept trying to prestage the takeup (like a Glock) and guess when it was going to break. What is needed is a long, smooth pull that let's the break surprise you. Once it 'clicked' for me, I've been absolutely shocked by the accuracy this little gun is capable of. I used to have a .25 Jetfire that was very lucky to put 6 rounds anywhere on a full-size silhouette at 7 yards. With the Kahr, I can put all 7 into the head if I take my time. With side support, I can put all 7 into a dinner-plate at 25 yards, which frankly floored me. I still need to work on my speed, but it told me that the gun is certainly capable of accuracy, and any problems are at MY end of things.

[QuercusMax]

After a lot of practice, my accuracy has improved substantially, so I thought I'd revive this thread to give you all an update.

When I got my MK9 over a year ago, I was really disappointed with my ability to shoot accurately with it. I practiced (not enough) with several techniques that various people suggested, and things got somewhat better.

A couple months ago I bought a LaserLyte LT-9. It's a little laser that is shaped like an oversize 9mm round that you manually load into the chamber. It turns on briefly when struck in the primer area so you can see where you were aiming when the striker hits. Because it is activated by impact, you don't need to remove the batteries between uses. While a little pricey, the device only cost about what I would go through in ammo in 1 - 2 outings, and has the great advantage that I can "shoot" anytime, indoors or out.

Since getting the LT-9, I have been dry firing with it fairly often. I finally ejected it and took the MK9 out for some real shooting, and was really impressed with how my accuracy had improved as you can see from the attached pictures, which were at 7 yds.

[JFootin]

Very cool, QM! :)

Your name reminds me of something. Sometimes my farts make a sound like this: "Squern-n-nk". So, some days I am SquernkusMax! :behindsofa:

[Barth]

There is an intermediate technique between point shooting and using the sights.
I'm not sure of the terminology.
But basically you get a flash sight picture using just the front sight or the end of the slide.
This technique can be very fast and accurate at striking distance and just beyond.

Also the Kahr trigger, having a relativity long pull for an auto,
seems something like a tuned DA revolver to me.
The more I shoot my tuned DA S&W revolvers,
the better I seem to shoot my Kahr MK40.

[QuercusMax]

Also the Kahr trigger, having a relativity long pull for an auto,
seems something like a tuned DA revolver to me.
The more I shoot my tuned DA S&W revolvers,
the better I seem to shoot my Kahr MK40.

Hmmm, interesting. (Or perhaps VERY interesting, as Mr Footin would say)

I admit that my results were an "uncontrolled" experiment, i.e. one in which multiple variables changed, and thus I can't actually prove which one, or combination, might have contributed.

Besides practicing with the LaserLyte, I have *also* been shooting my S&W 617 a bunch. At first, I hated it in DA mode, but after practicing I have actually become more accurate with it in DA than in SA mode. The trigger is stock, but maybe the same principle is at work?

If so, it would make a great excuse to get another Smith! I'm feeling the .357 itch coming on....

[muggsy]

Hmmm, interesting.

I admit that my results were an "uncontrolled" experiment, i.e. one in which multiple variables changed, and thus I can't actually prove which one, or combination, might have contributed.

Besides practicing with the LaserLyte, I have *also* been shooting my S&W 617 a bunch. At first, I hated it in DA mode, but after practicing I have actually become more accurate with it in DA than in SA mode. The trigger is stock, but maybe the same principle is at work?

If so, it would make a great excuse to get another Smith! I'm feeling the .357 itch coming on....

PM sent.

[Barth]

Hmmm, interesting.

I admit that my results were an "uncontrolled" experiment, i.e. one in which multiple variables changed, and thus I can't actually prove which one, or combination, might have contributed.

Besides practicing with the LaserLyte, I have *also* been shooting my S&W 617 a bunch. At first, I hated it in DA mode, but after practicing I have actually become more accurate with it in DA than in SA mode. The trigger is stock, but maybe the same principle is at work?

If so, it would make a great excuse to get another Smith! I'm feeling the .357 itch coming on....

LOL
I just bought my second 357 and I can't stop smiling.

[QuercusMax]

As hard I have struggled against caliber proliferation, I am now up to 6, and a .357 would add 1 or 2 more. Still, I don't think that is enough reason to resist an irresistible force.

Variety is the spice of life they say, and I also like smiling.

[Barth]

As hard I have struggled against caliber proliferation, I am now up to 6, and a .357 would add 1 or 2 more. Still, I don't think that is enough reason to resist an irresistible force.

Variety is the spice of life they say, and I also like smiling.

For decades the 357 Magnum was considered by many
to be the numero uno man-stopper.
I think it still holds it's own even today.

Plus you don't really need a giant stash of multiple calibers.
I have a few favorites I load up on.
And then have much smaller supplies of some calibers.
I only had about 10 boxes of Golden Saber 357 magnums.
Those are evaporating quickly. I think I have three boxes left.

[QuercusMax]

As the OP, I thought I would write another chapter in this continuing saga. Things are getting better.

I decided to shoot 9mm today, so I took out my MK9 Elite and Beretta 92FS and ran a 350 round box of Blazer Brass through them.

While I have struggled with the little Kahr in the past, today I was pretty consistently getting 2" groups at 7 and 10 yds - with both guns. I don't know if you think this is good or bad, but it's pretty good for me, and especially with the Kahr. The much bigger Beretta has always been an easy shooter for me, but today I did just as well with the little Kahr as with the bigger gun.

Perhaps practice does make perfect. Besides some actual shooting time, I have also spent some time practicing with my LaserLyte LT-9 in the chamber as well, which I have really found helpful.

[tilefish]

I love my K9 but I just recently starting getting good with it on a consistent basis. I would have good days at the range and terrible days. I too was frustrated. Practice, practice, practice and it gets better.

A side benefit is that I can now shoot really good with my XD. Practicing with a smaller gun helps tremendously when you switch back to a larger, easier to shoot gun.

[O'Dell]

I can't believe that I got sucked into a year old thread without noticing, but anyway I'll put in my two cents. First, I shoot my MK40 BETTER than my Kimber UC II at 30 feet, but I realize that some people have a problem with the two finger grip. Due to the extra weight I also shoot the MK better than my PM9 too and they are about the same size. It may be due to the the fact that I have relatively small hands.

[Barth]

[QUOTE=Barth;91917]It saddens me to hear that.
The gun is for up close and personal, point blank, work really.
I'm not sure what kind of accuracy you're looking for.
Combat accuracy is putting all your shots in center mass.
Not a ragged single hole.
The double action pull can give some people fits.
It's very much like a smooth DA revolver to me.
You might try waiting to really squeeze the gun until later in
the long stroke.
You may be fighting yourself and squeezing too hard.
A smooth squeeze of the trigger is needed through the long travel.
Also, the two finger grip can be mentally unsettling.
In some martial arts that two finger grip is actually the strongest.
You may want to practice dry fire.
Squeezing the trigger while keeping the sights on target.
There are charts with suggestions on how to adjust your grip ... to resolve shooting issues.
Finally different brands, and particularly weights, of bullets can have an effect.

I'd like to believe with practice anyone can shoot most any gun well.
But must admit that Beretta and H&K I can't seem to hit anything with.
Some seem to have an ergonomic curse with certain guns

Good luck.
I need to get back to Fist of Fury - LOL!
http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/ab3219/fist_of_fury_b.jpg

Update:
I now own five H&K guns and shoot them all well.
Sure I can shoot Beretta well now too.
It's funny what 10 or 20 thousand rounds down range will do for your shooting.