CM9 Driving Me Insane- HELP!

[hoghunter]

I have documented my range trips on the new CM9 on Kahr Talk. I suffered through the nose dives & FTFeeds. I sanded all the followers (3 mags), sanded the lips on the mags, did the complete break in process. I took it to the range today and tested with ANOTHER 114 rounds. I really focused on grip to ensure this was not adding to my issues. Here are the results:
- First 60 rounds ran flawless.
- 2nd shot of mag 11 (round 62 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 17 (round 98 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 18 (round 103 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 19 (round 109 total)= NOSEDIVE.

After the last magazine was complete and after three nosedive mags in a row, I cursed outloud and threw the d*mn CM9 in the box and went home.

Each of these was on a different magazine (one was a repeater as I tried a failed mag twice). So now I have three mags that I have sanded with no rubbing on the mag follower and look what happened. What in the world is going on here? I have now put nearly 500 rounds down the pipe and I still am getting problems. I cannot afford ($ammo$) to mess with this gun anymore nor do I have any faith that it will protect my life. Is this just the fact that the CM9 was getting dirty after 60 rounds? But then it went another 30 rounds with no issues until it NOSEDIVED on the last three mags in a row?

I am really p*ssed at this point! Sorry to vent, but I sold a perfectly good Gl*ck to buy this. Forgive me for my anger. Just really, really frustrated.

[Bawanna]

Always the second shot........... seems like the top round is getting pulled forward as the first round is cycled in, far enough that it doesn't get a good run at the feed ramp. Are you loading the chamber and then refilling the magazine? That should be fine but there would be more spring pressure on that second round. Shouldn't matter, it should still work.

The stripper bar might need to be cleaned up or polished a bit and the mags might need to be pinched a little to hold that second round a little tighter. Theres a thread here that talks about that. Someplace.

Try loading a mag full, lock the slide back. Feed the first round with the slide stop lever, then pull the mag back out and see what that top round looks like.

The only confusing part is it's not doing it every mag just regularly but sporadically.

[apdturbo]

a pistol that fails is frustrating, send it back to kahr.

[CJB]

Wasn't there a possible issue re: the follower vs the mag release or something doing that?

This sounds like a magazine issue. Sanded the lips? I thought the follower got sanded to help with this?

[Popeye]

Have you tried a different brands of ammo? Also if you hand cycle the rounds does it do the same thing on the second round?

[hoghunter]

Always the second shot........... seems like the top round is getting pulled forward as the first round is cycled in, far enough that it doesn't get a good run at the feed ramp. Are you loading the chamber and then refilling the magazine? That should be fine but there would be more spring pressure on that second round. Shouldn't matter, it should still work.

The stripper bar might need to be cleaned up or polished a bit and the mags might need to be pinched a little to hold that second round a little tighter. Theres a thread here that talks about that. Someplace.

Try loading a mag full, lock the slide back. Feed the first round with the slide stop lever, then pull the mag back out and see what that top round looks like.

The only confusing part is it's not doing it every mag just regularly but sporadically.

I have not been loading the chamber and refilling the mag. I just lock the slide back, insert a 6 rd mag, thumb release the slide, fire one round, lockback w/ nosedive on the second round. It is ALWAYS on the second round, although I did have third round issues before sanding the followers. Although I have no "friction" on the followers I can try to sand again but I don't see how this will impact anything. Could it just be that the feedramp being dirty after 60 rounds? What's funny is if I would have stopped at 50 rounds I would have thought everything was fine.

[xaircav]

This is exactly why I sold a PM9 and got a CW9 and never looked back. When the CM9 came out I avoided it.

[yqtszhj]

Call Kahr and send it back. And I'm not one to send things back either. You've spent enough on ammo and already tried to fix it. 2nd round each time is a pattern they should be able to duplicate. I would be hacked too.

[hoghunter]

Call Kahr and send it back. And I'm not one to send things back either. You've spent enough on ammo and already tried to fix it. 2nd round each time is a pattern they should be able to duplicate. I would be hacked too.

My only fear is, just like automobiles, you tell the mechanic about an issue and they NEVER duplicate it. Just seems like in my range visits nothing develops until I've shot over 50 down range. No way they will shoot 50 to see the issue. My last visit (as I documented) every mag at the 100 round and above level had a nose dive.

[Bawanna]

I think your good on the followers. Not top loading there is not so much pressure on that second round so it would be easier to drag forward.

I can't imagine it would be due to being dirty in only 80 or 100 rounds or even 200. With only 5 loaded see how easy that top round is to push forward with your thumb. I'm leaning towards feed lips being loose, wierd with multiple mags though, or that pick up rail being rough or a burr. But again it should act up sooner and more often.

Thinking cap on, others will be along.

I disagree with xaircav, the CM has a stellar track record for the most part. We'll figure this out. A call or email to Kahr wouldn't hurt describing your issues and your concerns about it happening after 50 rounds. Just like us they might suggest a minor tweak.

[Ressom]

That's too bad about the problems. Looks like your CM9 may be taking a trip to MA. :o

Since it is happening for all magazines, are you sure you have the springs installed correctly? The spring should follow the follower as pictured here:

http://www.nighttiger.net/kahr-arms-k-t-p-pm-seires/magazine-disassembly-maintenance-reassembly-disassembly.html

http://www.nighttiger.net/kahr-arms-k-t-p-pm-seires/images/3154_50_12-kahr-magazine-assembly.jpg

[heeler]

Sigh.....HogHunter,I wished I could make this better but call Kahr and arrange for it to go back and let them look at it and make it right.
I know it's a PIA but fwiw I also am feeling your pain as I too am dealing with a very similiar issue with my Diamondback.
I just got it back this past Thursday from the factory and it's worse by far than it was before.
Patience is not an easy virtue for guys to obtain after spending a fair wad on a pistol but hang in there.
This will get straightened out.
But in the mean time pick up a couple of boxes of different fmj ammo to try out once you get it back to make sure it's not a ammo rejection issue.

[hoghunter]

Well, I just sent an email to Kahr so hopefully someone responds. I am just so frustrated with this CM9. I've burned $125 worth of ammo only to keep having issues. So now I guess I wait and see who responds and then I get to break in the gun once again if I have to ship it back to Kahr. I just need to stay positive and know things will work out. Oh- forgot to mention that now all three of my mags now allow the mag base plate to slide off the mag without having to depress the mag lock dimple. Ughhh! Makes me wish there was a certain Austrian company that would make a single stack 9mm!

[hoghunter]

That's too bad about the problems. Looks like your CM9 may be taking a trip to MA. :o

Since it is happening for all magazines, are you sure you have the springs installed correctly? The spring should follow the follower as pictured here:

http://www.nighttiger.net/kahr-arms-k-t-p-pm-seires/magazine-disassembly-maintenance-reassembly-disassembly.html

http://www.nighttiger.net/kahr-arms-k-t-p-pm-seires/images/3154_50_12-kahr-magazine-assembly.jpg

Ressom,
Yes. Unfortunately I have become all too familiar with the inner workings of the Kahr magazine ;)

[heeler]

And on that note...I simply cannot understand WHY Glock will not make a single stack,lightweight and compact 9mm.
They would sweep the field and mop the rest up.

[hoghunter]

Sigh.....HogHunter,I wished I could make this better but call Kahr and arrange for it to go back and let them look at it and make it right.
I know it's a PIA but fwiw I also am feeling your pain as I too am dealing with a very similiar issue with my Diamondback.
I just got it back this past Thursday from the factory and it's worse by far than it was before.
Patience is not an easy virtue for guys to obtain after spending a fair wad on a pistol but hang in there.
This will get straightened out.
But in the mean time pick up a couple of boxes of different fmj ammo to try out once you get it back to make sure it's not a ammo rejection issue.

Thanks, Heel. It is very frustrating. We do so much research to get the right CCW gun and then it ends up being an episode of The Yankee Workshop (except in the FLA humidity). I have never had to fiddle with a gun as much as I have this Kahr.

[hoghunter]

And on that note...I simply cannot understand WHY Glock will not make a single stack,lightweight and compact 9mm.
They would sweep the field and mop the rest up.

I'd be first in line- based on my previous experience with them.

[Quickdraw]

My 6 round mag was always good but my 7 rounders had the same problem. I concluded the the mag spring was putting way too much pressure on a fully loaded mag. When it was stripping the first few rounds out of the mag it would pull the next lower round forward so the nose would dip down a bit. WHen it tried to load it was already dipped and as the slide came forward it jammed below the feed ramp. On the 7 rounders I cut 2 coils off of the springs to make them tha same length as the 6 round mag springs and the problem seems to have been solved.

[yqtszhj]

I wonder if it could be some combination of the recoil spring and the tension when the mag is close to full. Or the feed ramp. It doesn't make sense but I've had weirder things happen. Kahr needs that call. I think they'll fix you up.

Don't get too discouraged. Kahr does make a good gun. I had high hundreds through a CW9 and close to 400 through my CM9 with no hangups after the first 100 rounds. I think Kahr will make it right.

[yqtszhj]

My 6 round mag was always good but my 7 rounders had the same problem. I concluded the the mag spring was putting way too much pressure on a fully loaded mag. When it was stripping the first few rounds out of the mag it would pull the next lower round forward so the nose would dip down a bit. WHen it tried to load it was already dipped and as the slide came forward it jammed below the feed ramp. On the 7 rounders I cut 2 coils off of the springs to make them tha same length as the 6 round mag springs and the problem seems to have been solved.

Quick draw may have something.

[hoghunter]

Quick draw may have something.

All three of my mags are of the 6 round variety. I went 60+ rounds today with no issues then a Nose dive. Then 30 more rounds with no issues. And then Nose Dive at round two on three consecutive mags. I can't figure out what could be going on. I go long periods with nothing and then WHAM! Nose Dive city.

[94zcar]

Have you checked the breech face ( the flat area where the firing pin pokes out) for any irregularities that might stop the round from sliding up? It's a long shot but worth checking make sure its nice and flat. Seeing how you have this problem with all the mags maybe it is not a magzine problem?

[rvigz]

I just found this forum. I have recently purchased my first Kahr (CM9). First 250 rounds I had no issues. My last 50 rounds I have had two of these same Nosedive issues. I have never seen anything like it. Same thing you describe as the nose of the round jamming under the feed ramp. Had to remove by pressing on the back ridge of the round with a screwdriver. Just when I thought I had found the perfect pocket pistol after much research and comparison.

Please let me know what Kahr says and I will call them as well.

[Jeremiah/Az]

What ammo are you shooting? When you get a nose dive, with finger off the trigger, try bumping the back of the slide with the palm of the off hand. Does it only take a slight tap to go into battery? If that is the case, I'm guessing recoil spring problem.

[JimC]

I have documented my range trips on the new CM9 on Kahr Talk. I suffered through the nose dives & FTFeeds. I sanded all the followers (3 mags), sanded the lips on the mags, did the complete break in process. I took it to the range today and tested with ANOTHER 114 rounds. I really focused on grip to ensure this was not adding to my issues. Here are the results:
- First 60 rounds ran flawless.
- 2nd shot of mag 11 (round 62 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 17 (round 98 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 18 (round 103 total)= NOSEDIVE.
- 2nd shot of mag 19 (round 109 total)= NOSEDIVE.

After the last magazine was complete and after three nosedive mags in a row, I cursed outloud and threw the d*mn CM9 in the box and went home.

Each of these was on a different magazine (one was a repeater as I tried a failed mag twice). So now I have three mags that I have sanded with no rubbing on the mag follower and look what happened. What in the world is going on here? I have now put nearly 500 rounds down the pipe and I still am getting problems. I cannot afford ($ammo$) to mess with this gun anymore nor do I have any faith that it will protect my life. Is this just the fact that the CM9 was getting dirty after 60 rounds? But then it went another 30 rounds with no issues until it NOSEDIVED on the last three mags in a row?

I am really p*ssed at this point! Sorry to vent, but I sold a perfectly good Gl*ck to buy this. Forgive me for my anger. Just really, really frustrated.

My suggestion to you is to call Kahr Customer Service and make arrangements to have the gun sent back so they, Kahr, can go over it and make it right.

A gun is suppose to be fun to shoot and reliable when called upon to defend yourself. Yours is not and the company that made it needs to make it right for you.

[hoghunter]

What ammo are you shooting? When you get a nose dive, with finger off the trigger, try bumping the back of the slide with the palm of the off hand. Does it only take a slight tap to go into battery? If that is the case, I'm guessing recoil spring problem.


Speer Lawman 115gr. When I get the nose dive it is a BEAR to get unstuck. I have to depress the mag release and pull with all my might to get it unstuck. The round stays in the mag and then I have to reseat the round and reinsert the mag. As soon as I see the lockback on round 2 my heart drops because I know I am in for more trouble.

[hoghunter]

My suggestion to you is to call Kahr Customer Service and make arrangements to have the gun sent back so they, Kahr, can go over it and make it right.

A gun is suppose to be fun to shoot and reliable when called upon to defend yourself. Yours is not and the company that made it needs to make it right for you.

Jim,
Could not agree with you more. It will be interesting to see what they can do to make it run right. But I guess I'll be into the CM9 another 500 rounds when they send it back to "break it in" again. This has not been a good experience so far. I have done every tip on here to try and get this going 100%.

[JFootin]

Contact a CS agent and then arrange to send your detailed range report to them by email. That way, they'll have the whole picture about what the gun is doing, with no mixups or misses in communication.

[Ressom]

Ressom,
Yes. Unfortunately I have become all too familiar with the inner workings of the Kahr magazine ;)

Yeah, I figured as much... just trying to eliminate the posibilities. Along those lines... I'm sure you do, but do you have the guide rod spring installed so the open end is against the slide and the closed end against the barrel?


BTW, I know exactly what you are going through. I have a PF9 that was having feeding and extracting issues. After 250 rounds I sent it back to KT. They replaced everything but the frame. I got it back and it still was having issues. I contemplated sending it back again but instead I bought a CM9 and let the PF9 and me cool off a little.

This past weekend I took the PF9 out and really concentrated my grip for EVERY shot. Strong hand pushing forward weak hand pulling back. And I had 100 flawless rounds. I was very happy. So I am thinking, maybe the problem was with me all along. I am warming back up to the gun. Bottom line... don't give up on it.

I have quite a few full size guns, but the PF9 was my first 'small ass gun' as jocko likes to say. I think these guns really stress the fundamentals of proper grip technique.

So, maybe, look at your problems as a learning experience. I am learning proper grip technique after years of shooting. I bet you know more about slide stops, magazine followers, base plates, than you ever though you'd have to know. :D

[Rubb]

I would go back to the range with a clean gun.
Shoot it again to see if problems start at round 60+ again.
If they do, put the gun away (dirty)…and come back to the range in a day or two (with dirty gun).
If the hang ups are from a dirty gun they should show up right off the bat.
If its shooter fatigue, they shouldn’t.
I would also load it the way you intend to carry it, 6+1 I assume.

Good luck

[hoghunter]

I must say I am very impressed so far with the Kahr response. I got a call first thing this morning for a Regional Sales Manager who received my email. He sent my email to the proper folks at Kahr and assured me that they would be taking care of me and the CM9. You don't get that kind of immediate response from a lot of places any more. I will keep everyone posted on the results. Thanks again for eveyone's help.

[wyntrout]

It's hard to believe that they don't look at those magazines and redesign them to prevent all of the problems we report or see reported! I imagine a lot of the returns are really magazine malfunctions.

It's mind-boggling the number of variables or different models they are juggling, while still adding more to accommodate several of the restrictive states' demands for "safety features"... or ENCUMBRANCES!

I still think that a K45 should have been offered many years ago... and I'm still waiting!:(

Wynn:D

[hoghunter]

I had a conversation with someone at Kahr this morning. His opinion was that these are not mag related issues? I did inform him of the overwhelming feedback that magazines were likely the cause. That said, they are the experts so I have to trust what they say. I can't tell you how badly I want to have this CM9 100% flawless.

[apdturbo]

sounds like they will clear it up, this forum is a helpful place for tips and guidance but sometimes calling the mothership is the best bet. i don't see why everyone hails glock, my glock had fail to feeds/ fail to ejects randomly its entire life, after about a year, 1,400 rounds and several recoil spring weights and designs i got rid of it. i've never had a failure of anytype on any of my springfield xd's no matter what ammo i use. i wish springfield/hs produkt would make a single stack pocket pistol i'd be all over it. best of luck on the cm9, curious to see the progress.

[GunLuvnLibrl]

Gotta be real honest, this thread and the several other CM9 issue threads have got me real worried about picking up my CM9 from my LGS at the end of the week. Not real confidence inspiring for a gun that is supposed to become my EDC. Praying I get a flawless CM9 like the guy a couple of threads down with the boring range report. I sold my flawless Glock 30SF to get the CM9. :frown:

[jocko]

Gotta be real honest, this thread and the several other CM9 issue threads have got me real worried about picking up my CM9 from my LGS at the end of the week. Not real confidence inspiring for a gun that is supposed to become my EDC. Praying I get a flawless CM9 like the guy a couple of threads down with the boring range report. I sold my flawless Glock 30SF to get the CM9. :frown:

tel lu we are not having really any issues with the cm9, problably the most trouble free gun kahr has made, what ur reading is the same post time and time and time again discussed.

if u feel that way about it, cancel ur gun and get what u feel ur confident with. Personaly u making way to much to do about this, but again that is ur call to make , not mine. Some have had to tweek their magazine followers to get reliable, not just on the cm9 either, less on them for some reason, If they come here we can tell and show them how to make that little follower adjustment with relative ease. If u choose to send it back so be it, do it.

This being ur 4th post I am not sure how much back reading you have done but the cm9 hgas been just one super gun OUT of the box.
Needless to say u travel at ur own risk when you buiy any gun,kahrs are not imm8une from that either, so I am not defending them like they are a flawless gun but Iam sayingt that this jforum is the most helpful fourm Ihave ever been on and these guys can make a nightmare event turn into a good and fun event..

[GunLuvnLibrl]

tel lu we are not having really any issues with the cm9, problably the most trouble free gun kahr has made, what ur reading is the same post time and time and time again discussed.

if u feel that way about it, cancel ur gun and get what u feel ur confident with. Personaly u making way to much to do about this, but again that is ur call to make , not mine. Some have had to tweek their magazine followers to get reliable, not just on the cm9 either, less on them for some reason, If they come here we can tell and show them how to make that little follower adjustment with relative ease. If u choose to send it back so be it, do it.

This being ur 4th post I am not sure how much back reading you have done but the cm9 hgas been just one super gun OUT of the box.
Needless to say u travel at ur own risk when you buiy any gun,kahrs are not imm8une from that either, so I am not defending them like they are a flawless gun but Iam sayingt that this jforum is the most helpful fourm Ihave ever been on and these guys can make a nightmare event turn into a good and fun event..

So far I've read like 6 pagers back worth of posts. The nosedive issue seems to the biggest issue I've seen. I've also seen a couple of threads with similar issues on two other separate forums.

I'm hoping like hell my CM9 is flawless because out of all the guns available, it is THE one that I want. That says something about what I think of the gun.

You are right though, the people here have been very helpful in trying to resolve peoples issues and the support from fellow owners is one of the contributing factors of why I've chosen Kahr and the CM9.

I'm hoping to get my CM9 Friday and make a range visit Saturday or Sunday. I will definitely report back with a detailed report. Still seeing any issues would make someone feel a little uneasy about what to expect.

[hoghunter]

tel lu we are not having really any issues with the cm9, problably the most trouble free gun kahr has made, what ur reading is the same post time and time and time again discussed.

if u feel that way about it, cancel ur gun and get what u feel ur confident with. Personaly u making way to much to do about this, but again that is ur call to make , not mine. Some have had to tweek their magazine followers to get reliable, not just on the cm9 either, less on them for some reason, If they come here we can tell and show them how to make that little follower adjustment with relative ease. If u choose to send it back so be it, do it.

This being ur 4th post I am not sure how much back reading you have done but the cm9 hgas been just one super gun OUT of the box.
Needless to say u travel at ur own risk when you buiy any gun,kahrs are not imm8une from that either, so I am not defending them like they are a flawless gun but Iam sayingt that this jforum is the most helpful fourm Ihave ever been on and these guys can make a nightmare event turn into a good and fun event..

I agree with jocko. Don't let a few issues scare you away. I came to this forum to learn and then placed my order for the CM9 knowing what to expect (breakin period, sand follower, etc.). The guys here are great and I do believe that 90% of the problems can be solved through the fixes oputlined here. I have posted my problems, concerns, and requests for help because these are the guys that know how to fix Kahr issues. I am not posting to make a mountain out of a molehill, although when it is your primary CCW small issues do get magnified. Unfortunately, there will be a small number of CM9s (any product for that matter) that need to go back and get some work done. I have followed all advice on the forum and I still have issues. I will admit that I am frustrating reading all the great reviews of the CM9 knowing that mine has not been flawless, but have you ever owned a car that ran perfect while the guy down the road has his in the shop all the time? It happens. Fortunately, Kahr customer service got in touch with me right away and we are in the process of shipping it back. Am I happy about it? No, but they are doing what they can to resolve the issue.

[jocko]

So far I've read like 6 pagers back worth of posts. The nosedive issue seems to the biggest issue I've seen. I've also seen a couple of threads with similar issues on two other separate forums.

I'm hoping like hell my CM9 is flawless because out of all the guns available, it is THE one that I want. That says something about what I think of the gun.

You are right though, the people here have been very helpful in trying to resolve peoples issues and the support from fellow owners is one of the contributing factors of why I've chosen Kahr and the CM9.

I'm hoping to get my CM9 Friday and make a range visit Saturday or Sunday. I will definitely report back with a detailed report. Still seeing any issues would make someone feel a little uneasy about what to expect.

u havge read the two great threads (stickys) on the kahre tech section. #1 kahr lube chart, #2 propper preppingof ur new kahr.

If u wll just take a fullhour to pre prep your gun and check things that we have talekd tabout, u will eliminate any first round issues. Maybe none wold even need to be done but again WHY NOT start out on the right foot..Thge isues and few of what we have seen seem to be in the follower hitting the mag release button at around round 2-3, Just simple as hell to check out beforee ever going ANYWHERE.

[RichmondR]

For what it's worth, I'm also a brand new CM9 owner and this is my first post. I purchased mine brand new from Cabelas and it was as clean as a whistle and maybe a bit wet, but I left that alone. Have now gone through the maintenance and lube stickies here after the first 175.

My first 250 or so rounds have been perfect/flawless, some at 6+1 and some at 6. No mag or feeding problems at all. This is all with S&B FMJ ammo ... haven't tried hollow points yet.

This is a great little gun ... Fun to shoot, not at all painful to shoot for periods of time, and I feel under control even with the small grip. I'm really happy so far.

I have two more 6rd factory mags on order ... Hope the problems don't start then.

[jocko]

nice post and again 98%^of all kahrs willd o what yours did out ofthe box, Thgat other 2-5% need some TLC that only this fourm can give, IMO.

nice report, actually IMO better report than someone like me who has been here on this forum since the git go and who has not a dog in this fight either but when a newbie steps in with his first post with such a glowing report, to me it should send a signal to any would be kahr buyer; BUY THE FOKKER AND JUST SHOOT IT LIKE U STOLE IT.:yo:

[jeffe007]

First my cocking cam spring broke first thing out of the box. So rather than wait 2 weeks 4 kahr to fix it, I spent $30 to overnite the part to myself and fixed it-it's my only CCW piece. Now after firing a flawless 125 rounds thru my CM9, I notice that my magazine has 2 cracks alongeither side of the mags spine!! WTF!!!?? I've never ever ever ever had a magazine fail much less crack!! I realise mags can and will fail but CRACK?! I've now spent $30 for the spring and $40 for a new 7rd mag from my local dealer and now I'm worried I made a really bad choice buy'n the 7rd rather than the 6rd mag? Y'all think kahr will send me a new mag?

[jocko]

yes they will but they will want the cracked mag back first. It didn't crack because it was a 7 round mag, the 6 rounds have done that also. send the mag back they will send u a new one, if you so desire to want another 6 round magazine, u might aswk them that in your return letter to them. no need toget a RA# from kahr on this magazine eithe,r package it up with a letter and regulasr mail it and you willhave a new replacement within a week.

[heeler]

First my cocking cam spring broke first thing out of the box. So rather than wait 2 weeks 4 kahr to fix it, I spent $30 to overnite the part to myself and fixed it-it's my only CCW piece. Now after firing a flawless 125 rounds thru my CM9, I notice that my magazine has 2 cracks alongeither side of the mags spine!! WTF!!!?? I've never ever ever ever had a magazine fail much less crack!! I realise mags can and will fail but CRACK?! I've now spent $30 for the spring and $40 for a new 7rd mag from my local dealer and now I'm worried I made a really bad choice buy'n the 7rd rather than the 6rd mag? Y'all think kahr will send me a new mag?

Not trying to sound all preachy and stuff and I certainly know everyone's money is tight but everyone that conceal carry's should try and make sure they have a backup carry gun just in case their main piece goes in for repairs,part broken,stolen,etc.

Hoghunter,glad Kahr got back to you in such quick fashion....INSIST on a shipping label so your not out $50.00 for over night shipping.
At least Diamondback did that for me today and two weeks ago as well.
Good luck.

[les strat]

Not trying to sound all preachy and stuff and I certainly know everyone's money is tight but everyone that conceal carry's should try and make sure they have a backup carry gun just in case their main piece goes in for repairs,part broken,stolen,etc.



I totally agree. My 642 makes a great BUG if the Kahr is ever down and out (hopefully, this won't happen!).:faint2:

[southernjeepn06]

I'm waiting to here back from what they say also. I took mine out this weekend for it's first range trip. I did read a few of the stickies but I didn't see the thread on sanding the follower. I was having the same problems are you were with Federal FMJ ammo from walmart in my CM9 but not with the RWS ammo. The second round was nose-diving and I had to drop the mag and clear the jam. It was hanging up below the feed ramp. This was my break-in trip and shot about 100 rounds so still need to shoot it some more. As far as I remember, it was only the second round of each magazine ( 7 round or 6 round). I'll see this weekend if I can duplicate the results.

[yqtszhj]

So far I've read like 6 pagers back worth of posts. The nosedive issue seems to the biggest issue I've seen. I've also seen a couple of threads with similar issues on two other separate forums.

I'm hoping like hell my CM9 is flawless because out of all the guns available, it is THE one that I want. That says something about what I think of the gun.

You are right though, the people here have been very helpful in trying to resolve peoples issues and the support from fellow owners is one of the contributing factors of why I've chosen Kahr and the CM9.

I'm hoping to get my CM9 Friday and make a range visit Saturday or Sunday. I will definitely report back with a detailed report. Still seeing any issues would make someone feel a little uneasy about what to expect.

If you do pick it up we will be interested in your range report. I have a CM9 with about 400 rounds now and only one fail to return to battery in the first 100 rounds. not even one problem since then with FMJ or hollowpoints. I think you should be fine. I'm very pleased overall with mine. nothing bad to say about it at all.

[rvigz]

An update since my last post here where I mentioned having the same issue....I have just noticed that my 6 round mag is cracked along both sides of the top back corners of the magazine.

Kahr will be exchanging and we will see if that solves the issue.

[hoghunter]

One note of interest. I went to a LGS today and asked to see a couple Kahrs. I handled one of the PM40s. I had not been in this particular LGS in about a year but they had the full line of Kahr (except PM9). I pulled the mag out of the PM40 and there is a notch already pre-cut all the way down the mag follower- right where we are being told to sand on our CM9 mag followers. This seemed very interesting to me. Anyone else with a new PM40 I would be curious as to whether you see this notch. It is about a quarter inch wide and flows down the follower. Right where the mag release would contact the follower. I wonder why the CM9 or PM9 mag followers are not designed the same. Even though Kahr told me on the phone they knew nothing about issues with the mags and nosedives this really got me thinking. I guess I will find out when my CM9 makes it home from the mothership. It is there now. FINGERS-CROSSED.

[TucsonMTB]

Yep! All of my .40 S&W mags from Kahr have a relief cut in the follower. It's not quite deep enough for my guns, but it provides a nice indicator of where to sand a little more. :)

I have never seen a 9mm Kahr magazine, so cannot comment on them, sorry.

[hoghunter]

Yep! All of my .40 S&W mags from Kahr have a relief cut in the follower. It's not quite deep enough for my guns, but it provides a nice indicator of where to sand a little more. :)

I have never seen a 9mm Kahr magazine, so cannot comment on them, sorry.

Tucson,
Thanks for the feedback. Just makes me wonder why they cut it out of the .40 mags and not the 9mm CM or PM9s? There had to be a reason they did it in the first place. Seems like they should have them all manufactured with a recessed follower? Well, even after sanding it down I still had the nosedives. We shall see what Kahr can do.

[TucsonMTB]

Well, even after sanding it down I still had the nosedives.
Before you shoot again, it might be worth checking to see if you took enough off. You can assemble the empty magazine tube with just the follower in place and then lock it into the pistol. If the follower does not drop out of the gun without restriction as it passes the magazine catch, you know a little more clearance is needed.


We shall see what Kahr can do.
Cool! As much as we wish they were not needed, customer service and the warranty service they provide are better than sliced bread. :)

[rokoutwuglokout]

I have been following this thread, as I am also having the nosedive failures. This is my first time posting.

First range trip had several nose dives; I should have documented the failures better, but I think it was primarily with the 7 round magazine. I was shooting lawman practice ball ammo. I shot a couple rounds of speer golddot LEO hollowpoint with no problems, but I didn;t have enough of this ammo to ascertain if it was an ammo issue.

I shot several rounds of cheap frangible ammo yesterday, I was expecting many malfunctions with this ammo, but did not have a single one. (My Springfield XD9, which has never malfunctioned in the past, had several serious failures with this frangible ammo) This was using only the 6 round magazine, as I am currently doing the epoxy modification to my 7 rounder.

If anyone is wondering, the epoxy mod changes the angle of the follower, which makes the top round in alignment with the rest of the rounds in the magazine.

I will give an update, once I go to the range with the modded 7 round magazine.

[hoghunter]

My CM9 is still at Kahr with no word yet on it's return. Interesting to read that you had issues with the Speer Lawman (would it be the TMJ you are referring to as the "lawman practice ball ammo"?). That's what I have used in every firearm I have ever owned with ZERO problems until this CM9. Curious if anyone else has experience the same with the Speer Lawman TMJ 115gr.

[Bob G]

OK this was a long read..I started having some FTF, FTE and the slide not locking back after last round issues a couple of weeks ago after having put over 400 rounds in my CM9..First I noticed my reloads were just a little long..I fixed my reloads and went back to the range..First 3 mags were fine..Then the problems started again..WTF! I started going over everything in my head and had a thought..I had been using just the smallest amount of Tetra grease as a lube..I cleaned my gun and used regular gun oil and lubed all the right spots... went back to the and 50 no issue rounds..I also sanded just one of my mags, but both plus one of my 7 rounders worked great..I will put another 100+ rounds thru it Sunday and make sure all is well..In the meantime I have been carrying my LCR 357...My CW9 has been flawless.. I am taking the blame on my Kahrs problems..I believe it was just way too dry....Interesting on the 40 cal mags...

[ltxi]

I must have been asleep for the last year or two. When did folks start regularly having problems with Kahr mags? I have a PM9, an MK9, and a K9, all about three years old. Among them I have maybe a dozen mags ranging from six rounders (the most) to eight. I've never had a bit of trouble with any of them in any of the guns.

[TucsonMTB]

I must have been asleep for the last year or two. When did folks start regularly having problems with Kahr mags? I have a PM9, an MK9, and a K9, all about three years old. Among them I have maybe a dozen mags ranging from six rounders (the most) to eight. I've never had a bit of trouble with any of them in any of the guns.
Ya' know, it may not really be the magazine as much as the magazine catch. The recent issues are interference by the magazine catch as the follower goes by. It's easier to sand a little clearance into the follower than modify the catch, so that's what I have done and many people recommend.

It is surprising that a little hit on the follower would cause a misfeed, so there could be other factors involved. It shows up when guns are new and not yet operating smoothly, so the added friction of new parts could be part of the issue.

All I can say with any certainty is that without adding a little clearance I get either nose dives or three point jams with my PM40s, both of which are still below a thousand rounds and still loosening up.

Some people also have issues when they sling shot the slide, and some attribute that to the magazine, but I think it's more a matter of not getting the slide far enough to the rear before releasing.

All this is just one stupid, old man's opinion, so don't take it too seriously. :D

[VBVAGUY]

My opinion is that Glock does not want to ruin their reputation of reliability on building a single stack 9mm / 40 that they know will probably have problems like the many other companies that currently have one out and also have problems of one type or another. Again my opinion. God Bless :)



And on that note...I simply cannot understand WHY Glock will not make a single stack,lightweight and compact 9mm.
They would sweep the field and mop the rest up.

[jocko]

tucsomMTB, u might be right, I would think it is the mag catch more than themagazine but asu well know it is far easier to sand the follower thanthe mag catch . U canover sand a follower and stillbe good to go. u ovber sand/file a mag catch and ur gonna be picking up your magazines off the ground when u don't want to. Personally I have always felt it was the mag catch, more than the follower but the follower is the easiest tomdify and get the job done. Some guns might indeed get by with alittle mag/follower catch to but IMO it should not happen, that follower should travel freely up and down with no hindrance. I would never trust my magazines if it caught even the slightest. Maybe rounds down range might gets things loosened up to and then things are ok but again I say that in more jest than fact. Rounds down range seem to fix alot of things that we know are unknown as far as a fix goes, but this magazine thing if it happens is fixable with ease. VBVAGUY u mifght be right with that assumption to. I just tend to think from seeing so many big guns work right and so so many small guns have issues that "SIZE DOES" MATTER.

[ltxi]

.........It is surprising that a little hit on the follower would cause a misfeed,....... :D

Actually that explanation makes perfect sense to me. Kahr mags seem to be much more sensitive than most when it comes to keeping the first/top round properly seated. It doesn't take much to cause it to slide forward on the follower and disturb the fabric of the universe when the slide tries to strip it. That's why I would never trust a spare carried loose in an off side pocket.

[TucsonMTB]

tucsomMTB, u might be right, I would think it is the mag catch more than themagazine but asu well know it is far easier to sand the follower thanthe mag catch

Actually that explanation makes perfect sense to me. Kahr mags seem to be much more sensitive than most when it comes to keeping the first/top round properly seated. It doesn't take much to cause it to slide forward on the follower and disturb the fabric of the universe when the slide tries to strip it.
Wow! Two people whose opinions I value, both concurring with my observations! :eek:

Maybe I ought to quickly run out and buy a lottery ticket . . . ;)

Thank you, gentlemen! :D

[jocko]

it won't happen alot though,so buy two tickets while ur there..

[ltxi]

Wow! Two people whose opinions I value, both concurring with my observations! :eek:

Maybe I ought to quickly run out and buy a lottery ticket . . . ;)

Thank you, gentlemen! :D

I don't know whether to be flattered or disturbed. ;)

[TucsonMTB]

it won't happen alot though,so buy two tickets while ur there..
I'm thinking one will be enough. One times zero equals zero. Two times zero equals zero, too. Do we see a pattern here? :D

I don't know whether to be flattered or disturbed. ;)
Flattered. Definitely. Great minds think alike. I read that on the Internet, so it must be true. :D

[Bawanna]

I invented the internet.

[TucsonMTB]

I invented the internet.
Uhm . . . I think I saw that somewhere before. ;)

[hoghunter]

Cool! As much as we wish they were not needed, customer service and the warranty service they provide are better than sliced bread. :)

Tucson- thanks for the encouraging words. Going into my third week with the CM9 at the mothership. I think the sliced bread is getting a little moldy? :p

[JACQUESFAUST]

BGB6491 is a user that supposedly has a fix for this...I saw this tidbit of info somewhere in the KahrTalk forum
I hope he sees this message and posts the solution here.

I just broke my PM9 in with 200 rounds and experienced 4 nosedives of the 2nd and 3rd rounds (115 gr, S&W, FMJ). This occured at the end of the first 100 rounds (day 1) and end of the 2nd 100 rounds (day 2). I took my time both days so no overheating; I held the gun firmly always, elbows locked, squared stance.

[jocko]

I invented the internet.

goodreason why the internet is so fokked up!!:86:

[hoghunter]

BGB6491 is a user that supposedly has a fix for this...I saw this tidbit of info somewhere in the KahrTalk forum
I hope he sees this message and posts the solution here.

I just broke my PM9 in with 200 rounds and experienced 4 nosedives of the 2nd and 3rd rounds (115 gr, S&W, FMJ). This occured at the end of the first 100 rounds (day 1) and end of the 2nd 100 rounds (day 2). I took my time both days so no overheating; I held the gun firmly always, elbows locked, squared stance.

Jacque,
The most common solution is available in the Kahr Tech forum listed in the CW45 issues and fixes thread. That seems to help MOST folks on here. Unfortunately for me, that did not solve my problem. I would definitely visit that thread and try to fix it with the follower sanding. If the CM9 continues to have issues then check back with the forum. My CM9 should be in the mail back from Kahr. Their solution for me was to cut the recoil spring. Remains to be seen if that solves a nosedive on round two, as I would think a spring issue would occur on other rounds not just round two. But I have to trust their expertise so we shall see what happens at the range when it gets back.

[jocko]

I guessmy question is also when we say round two, Is that putting in a loaded 6 round magazine and rackingin a love round which leaves now 5 in the magaazine or are we talking about loading the magazine and then racking one in the pipe and then topping off the magazine again meaning 6 rounds. There is a difference in how we say round 2 or round 3. I know it might sound confusing but not to those who are having feed issues..

[hoghunter]

Yes it can be confusing. I have never racked one and then removed mag to top off thus having one in the pipe and 6 in the mag. My issues were always insert 6 round mag, rack gun (one in the pipe & 5 in the mag). Pull trigger, go bang, slide stays open with next round nosedived in the mag. In this scenario I don't know that the follower is even in the mag catch window (all my mags are at Kahr so I have to go by memory) so I can't imagine what else it could be unless the mag release itself is striking the round? But you would think it would on other rounds as well? It did on very few occasions go bang twice and then stay open with what would be the third round nosedived in the mag. In that scenario I can see the follower contacting the mag release. Like stated earlier, the CM9 should be delivered back to me soon. I never did get a lot of feedback on whether or not anyone else had Kahr only cut the recoil spring and that solve this nosedive issue.

[jocko]

no it would not be in that scenario the follower being caught by thge mag catch..

[TucsonMTB]

I never did get a lot of feedback on whether or not anyone else had Kahr only cut the recoil spring and that solve this nosedive issue.
That ought to tell you it's bogus. ;)

Just my opinion, of course. YMMV.

[hoghunter]

That ought to tell you it's bogus. ;)

Just my opinion, of course. YMMV.

Wow! That kinda caught me off guard. Is the opinion here that this is a bogus solution to the nosedive issues? Why would a company such as Kahr snip the spring and send it back if the opinion is that this will do zero to solve a nosedive on a specific round (2)? Wouldn't you think a gunsmith at Kahr would be thinking the same thing? I outlined in my Repair thread that the person at Kahr CS scoffed at there even being issues with the follower / mag release causing nosedives. Last thing I want is Kahr to just be grasping at straws over what may be going on. Cut the spring on the first return, polish the feed ramp on the second return, polish the slide stop bar on the third return, replace the slide stop spring on the fourth return, etc. I pray that the CM9 comes back flawless, but cutting the spring to solve a very specific issue appears to not have a lot of folks on here confident about the solution.
NOTE: I am not asking these questions to be caustic or confrontational, just interested in others thoughts. Of course, it's all useless until I get this CM9 back and at the range. But it's fun to have conjecture!

[Ressom]

Personally, I'm thinking it is an issue with ammo. If you can take a couple of different kinds to the range, that would probably be a good idea.

[jocko]

I am not confident of that solution at all. The cm9 has been basicaly a great gun out of the box, but again who knows. We don't have the priveldges tha tthey do in simply replacing a part, test fire if not ok, replace another part, trest fire OK, send it back give the owner soe bull sh-t reply to make him feel good. I don't think sometimes they know wha the probloem is or at least how to solve it, We some some gun with new lowers, new slides. No way we as a gun owner can trouble shoot that type of issue. We here on this forum have many fixes for minor issues which are i house solveable but when all that fails, then it is kahrs baby to work on. It is probalby cheaper for kahr to just replace a new part and test fire etc then to actually try to fi ur gun with what is originally in it. Understandable from a cost standpoint but?????


IMO aMMO SHOULD NEVER BE THE ISSUE WITH A KAHR, they are nopt ammo sensitive, they have never been ammo sensitive. If ur kahr won't shoot AMERICAN brand ammo reliably , then IMO something is wrong

[TucsonMTB]

Personally, I'm thinking it is an issue with ammo. If you can take a couple of different kinds to the range, that would probably be a good idea.
+1 . . . One of my Kahr PM40 pistols will frequently nose dive with 180 grain Winchester Ranger JHP ammo. The more rounded and effectively shorter OAL 135 grain version of the same ammunition NEVER nose dives.

With problems happening after about 400 rounds through the PM40, Kahr was gracious enough to try to solve the issues I was experiencing, which also included frequent failures to return to battery. They picked up shipping and had the gun for about a week before shipping it back. They replaced the recoil spring with what seemed to be a little stronger spring than came in the gun when new. It was so strong that, until it had been fired a few times, you couldn't lock the slide back by hand. I was pretty excited to get it back, but their efforts were in vain. The two major issues, FTRB and nose dives were still happening. Yes, I was bummed.

Subsequently, I polished some machine marks out of the breach face and polished the extractor. The added polishing seemed to eliminate the FTRB issue! :)

The gun still experiences nose dives with 180 grain ammo, but very infrequently since my polishing. Admittedly, the improvements could also be the result of additional rounds through the gun so I can't really take any credit.

Winchester Ranger 135gr JHP Hollow Point ammo Q4368 is now my carry ammo. I do NOT carry 180 grain except as the first round in the pipe. I do shoot it occasionally at the range to practice clearing malfunctions. :rolleyes:

When I use up my existing inventory of 180 grain ammo, I will not purchase any more . . . just stick to 135 grain Winchester Q4368, which is very accurate and has somewhat softer recoil than the 180 grain stuff.

Both of my PM40 pistols are 100% reliable with Winchester Ranger 135gr JHP Hollow Point ammo Q4368. Once you find what works in your gun, you will probably be happy too. :D

[JD Cowles]

This forum is filled with great people and a lot of great advice and I would like to thank them all. I went through a similar situation with a PM9 in the spring. Tried everything short of a trip back to Kahr. Traded it in on a Glock 26 and have never looked back.

[CJB]

+1 to what Jocko said... but also adding....

Any manufacturer weighs a few things when doing repairs. They have to consider the cost of rework, vs the cost of an "off the line" replacement. They have to consider (or should consider) the liability consequences of repair vs replacement as well.

You might find a gun that needs a trigger bar, a cam spring and and an ejector. They might go for that, but if the result didn't work, and the cause was not immediately and clearly known, it might be easier - and CHEAPER - to grab a frame off the line vs trying to sit there and try and test and try and test... until the problem was fixed. Just an example... but that sort of thing is what goes on - to some degree or another.

[rokoutwuglokout]

I have since shot speer gold dot hollowpoint 147g and american eagle (not sure what grain).

Not a single failure of other issue.

I think my malfunctions were a lack of cleaning/prepping the gun prior to break in period. Once cleaned and properly lubed, no issues at all.


I have been following this thread, as I am also having the nosedive failures. This is my first time posting.

First range trip had several nose dives; I should have documented the failures better, but I think it was primarily with the 7 round magazine. I was shooting lawman practice ball ammo. I shot a couple rounds of speer golddot LEO hollowpoint with no problems, but I didn;t have enough of this ammo to ascertain if it was an ammo issue.

I shot several rounds of cheap frangible ammo yesterday, I was expecting many malfunctions with this ammo, but did not have a single one. (My Springfield XD9, which has never malfunctioned in the past, had several serious failures with this frangible ammo) This was using only the 6 round magazine, as I am currently doing the epoxy modification to my 7 rounder.

If anyone is wondering, the epoxy mod changes the angle of the follower, which makes the top round in alignment with the rest of the rounds in the magazine.

I will give an update, once I go to the range with the modded 7 round magazine.

[muggsy]

My 6 round mag was always good but my 7 rounders had the same problem. I concluded the the mag spring was putting way too much pressure on a fully loaded mag. When it was stripping the first few rounds out of the mag it would pull the next lower round forward so the nose would dip down a bit. WHen it tried to load it was already dipped and as the slide came forward it jammed below the feed ramp. On the 7 rounders I cut 2 coils off of the springs to make them tha same length as the 6 round mag springs and the problem seems to have been solved.

I think you may be on to something. I installed the six round mag spring in the seven round mag and it seems to align the cartridges better and is much easier to load the last round.

[jocko]

I have heard of the reverse inh putting in a longer spring but not a shorter one. If it works OK fine but what I think will eventually happen is that that shorter spring once it takes a more designed set will not have the over all strength and power to move that follower up fast enough to engage the slide lock lever. It is all about timeing. Might work for some who did it but for me not the way to go. what ur talking about sounds to me to be around round 3 on the magazine and to me that indicates that the follower in the magazine might be hitting the magazine release and causing the follower to not move upward freely, why cutting the spring shorter eliminates that (if that is the issue) I have no clue. Yes it is easier to load the last round. that makes alot of sense. for defense carry I squeeze that last round in, for range time I just shoot 5 round in the magazine instead of 6, I have an uplula but harldy use if...

[muggsy]

My opinion is that Glock does not want to ruin their reputation of reliability on building a single stack 9mm / 40 that they know will probably have problems like the many other companies that currently have one out and also have problems of one type or another. Again my opinion. God Bless :)

Whether a 9mm is single stack or double stack should make no difference as the top round in both mags are centered in line with the bore. There are a lot of single stack nines that feed properly without issues. Kahr needs to resolve these issues quickly if they want to stay in business.

[muggsy]

I have heard of the reverse inh putting in a longer spring but not a shorter one. If it works OK fine but what I think will eventually happen is that that shorter spring once it takes a more designed set will not have the over all strength and power to move that follower up fast enough to engage the slide lock lever. It is all about timeing. Might work for some who did it but for me not the way to go. what ur talking about sounds to me to be around round 3 on the magazine and to me that indicates that the follower in the magazine might be hitting the magazine release and causing the follower to not move upward freely, why cutting the spring shorter eliminates that (if that is the issue) I have no clue. Yes it is easier to load the last round. that makes alot of sense. for defense carry I squeeze that last round in, for range time I just shoot 5 round in the magazine instead of 6, I have an uplula but harldy use if...

Whether the slide locks back is of little consequence. The gun must fires every time the trigger is pulled. No one was ever killed because the slide wouldn't lock open after the last round was fired.

[jocko]

kahr will more than likely be here when u and I are both gone. IMO u are way way over emphasising a negative here..

[jocko]

Whether the slide locks back is of little consequence. The gun must fires every time the trigger is pulled. No one was ever killed because the slide wouldn't lock open after the last round was fired.

but trust me if a slide is supposed to lock back, and it doesn't, owners will bit-h to high heaven. Your logic is good but try to pass that on to an owner whose gun will not lock openb as designed:behindsofa: