open vs concealed carry

[knkali]

your thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY&feature=related

[Bawanna]

While this is certainly thought provoking and worthy of constructive discussion, historically threads involving open carry and exercising that right have tended to head for the drain and get very very ugly and heated in a very short time.

Lets make a valiant attempt to keep it civil, no mud slinging, leave the emotion someplace else.

Ok, everyone go to a neutral corner and let the games begin.

[knkali]

Thanks Bawanna for the caveat. I think that it should be an option to all ccw holders. If you feel it is beneficial then go for it. The gun is a hunk of metal. What the person does with it is what matters. I am not going to have a quick draw contest with a BG. If he draws first, it really doesnt matter if my gun is out or concealed. Besides if at all possible, permit holders should look to get away first.

[OldLincoln]

I understand and agree with the "right" and the explanation that eventually the population will "get over it." I would open carry in the woods, etc. where legal to carry loaded, but not in town where it becomes a issue. May be legal but doesn't make it okay.

I goes like this for me, if I legally open carry, then so can the gang bangers with their gang colors and bad boy attitudes. So can those citizens who I am wary of by nature although I'm sure all but a few are really good people.

So, would I want to push my wife in her chair into a Starbucks crowded with bad boys and other suspects? Hell no. My SA would go off the map! If I wouldn't take her into a place like that, why should I open carry in the same place? Because I can isn't a good answer for me.

There's a town somewhere back east (everything's east of me) where there is no law expressly banning going nude on the street. I'll bet if I walked nude all the time there they'd eventually get over it right? Mothers with their young children wouldn't even glance my way, right? Well, I "can" but "should" I?

[knkali]

Old Lincoln,

I am not reading your post right. Please do not take this the wrong way. I am having problems with your position not because I disagree with you, but because I do not fully understand what your position is. Please give me another shot (sic) at what your point is. I want to express that my original post considers open carry is only done where it is legal.

[ltxi]

Not at all fan of provocative open carry.Thing that sorta saves this for me is that it was Wisconsin and the comment at the end regarding CCW.

[knkali]

What is the law in Wisconsin re open/ccw?

[beatlesfan]

It's legal to open carry here in Indiana. I'm not down south, but up north in a nice semi big town. I have open carried before, but I get a lot of strange looks. It draws attention. Why draw attention if I don't have to? If the bg is going to do something anyways, he'd probably target the guy with the gun(me) first. I carry owb in a non retention leather holster and wear an unbuttoned short sleeve shirt over it. Issue solved.

One time I was at a local car/bike show. It was a bit windy and the shirt blew open before I could stop it. A LEO noticed, walked over to me, and asked how I liked my Sig 239. We chatted for a bit and parted ways. He never asked to see my permit or anything.

Sent from Tapatalk

[Bawanna]

For me the beauty of open carry is just to cover any wardrobe boo boo I might commit. My vest opens, or my jacket pulls up or whatever. People will still be concerned, I'll still get looks, calls will probably still be made but I'm still ok.
Washington is an open carry state. I do not and will not open carry. If I was in the woods I would do so and I used to back in BC (before chair).
It would take a long time for the public to get used to seeing guns openly again. Doubt it would ever happen. Until then all we have is a bunch of guys trying to prove their right by exercising it and thinking they need to go around and teach Law Enforcement their rights. LE gets enough test everyday without dealing with this kind of stuff.
And Old LIncoln raised an awfully good point about bad guys and gang bangers etc walking around with guns. I don't like that thought at all. I avoid places they congregate anyhow but I'd really go no where if they were open carrying.

[.45fan]

Open carry when legal is no big deal, I have been doing it about 40% of the time I am awake for a couple years now.

I have a dollar to bet that the majority of those against it are either in a place where it is not legal (sorry for your luck) or have not even bothered to try it because of the fear of not being PC.

I have OCed in many major metropolitan cities and have not had any issues. If you carry yourself in a manor that DOESN'T scream "hey I'm armed and you can not do anything about it" you will be fine.

The fact of the matter is that most people are so rapped up in their own self that they can not take their eyes off their b l a c k b e r r y (stupid swear filters), ipod or whatever to even notice I am OCing.

[jeepster09]

As a former leo, I would say it just isn't worth open carrying. The attention you bring to your self is not worth it. Many people from Utopiaville will call police and say they "saw a man with a gun". Do you want this constant attention? As a leo I would wonder what your problem was also and you would certainly be watched closely. This may be diverting time and manpower from other serious issues. I feel the people that do it when they could conceal it are attention hogs with perhaps other issues as well.
Just like you can also carry a tire iron with walking down the sidewalk legally, it also may not be a good idea depending on where you are. Common sense needs to prevail.

[Russ]

In my opinion, I think it is foolish to open carry even if it is legal. It is an ego trip in my opinion and the woman on the tape alluded to it with regard to the guy packing open. The one huge tactical advantage carrying concealed is the bad guy doen't know you can match their threat if provided the opportunity. If a bad guy is casing a place and they discover a person armed it may discourage them from carrying out their intent to comit a violent crime, but if not, the very first person they will pop off will be the person with the weapon.

When I was a child before concealed carry was legal a gun man took hostage several government employees I believe at work in a library. What the gunman failed to realize was one of the hostages was an undercover cop. The police officer untucked his shirt to hide his gun when the hostage situation was first taking place. Over the course of several hours the hostages where held up in a room and the gunman nor the other hostages did not know one of the victims was armed. Over the course of several hours the cop was able to access the situation and pick the ideal moment to end the situation. The ending was positive for all the hostages. Everyone walked out alive and the bad guy got a pine box. What I learned from that experience is if you are carrying concealed don't advertise it even to those law abiding associates you may work alongside. Had the hostages known one among the group was armed it could have made it difficult for the officer in this situation to choose the ideal moment to act or worse he could had been discovered. People can do strange things when their life is on the line. Just my opinion Russ

[.45fan]

For me the beauty of open carry is just to cover any wardrobe boo boo I might commit. My vest opens, or my jacket pulls up or whatever. People will still be concerned, I'll still get looks, calls will probably still be made but I'm still ok.
Washington is an open carry state. I do not and will not open carry. If I was in the woods I would do so and I used to back in BC (before chair).
It would take a long time for the public to get used to seeing guns openly again. Doubt it would ever happen. Until then all we have is a bunch of guys trying to prove their right by exercising it and thinking they need to go around and teach Law Enforcement their rights. LE gets enough test everyday without dealing with this kind of stuff.
And Old LIncoln raised an awfully good point about bad guys and gang bangers etc walking around with guns. I don't like that thought at all. I avoid places they congregate anyhow but I'd really go no where if they were open carrying.


My friend we have had discussions on this before so I will post once and let it go.
If Law enforcement would spend a minute and learn the laws they are supposed to enforce there would be no need to educate them, right?

On the gang banger topic, sorry but that sounds like the antis saying that their will be blood in the streets if people are allowed to carry a gun. read more drama then needed in life.

If a gang banger is going to carry a gun can either you or OldLincoln honestly look me in the face and say that a law or 2 would stop them?


As a former leo, I would say it just isn't worth open carrying. The attention you bring to your self is not worth it. Many people from Utopiaville will call police and say they "saw a man with a gun". Do you want this constant attention? As a leo I would wonder what your problem was also and you would certainly be watched closely. This may be diverting time and manpower from other serious issues. I feel the people that do it when they could conceal it are attention hogs with perhaps other issues as well.
Just like you can also carry a tire iron with walking down the sidewalk legally, it also may not be a good idea depending on where you are. Common sense needs to prevail.

I really would like to know where all these calls to the cops are happening and then would like to know why the dispatcher doesn't ask a few SIMPLE questions that would put the call to bed immediatly.
I am loving the fact that a person on a 2A forum calls somebody that is doing what is a right given to them long before birth an attention hog.





I am out of this one before it gets locked.

[JFootin]

I like this one. A little close to the woman with the baby, but he obviously knew what he was doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[TheTman]

I think we are pretty much allowed to open carry throughout the state, but many cities had laws against it. Now we have a statute that says state law outranks any local ordinances, but I have never seen anyone open carrying. Used to see a lot of pickups with shotgun and rifle in the gun racks, but that invited too many break ins and most have quit doing that except during hunting season. We are expressly allowed open carry while hunting, fishing, and have seen people particularly fishermen carrying openly, for protection agains various types of varmints. While on your own property, and in your place of business are also expressly allowed.
The only place I've seen open carry has been in gun stores and pawn shops. I do not want anyone to know I am carrying, except perhaps those I am with, and if I enter someones home I ask if they mind that I have a concealed weapon. I usually know in advance the friends that don't mind and those who want a gun nowhere around.
I often open carry while working on the farm due to the feral dogs that come up now and then, and for skunks that carry rabies a lot here. There's no one around to freak out and it makes salesmen nervous, so it works ok for me.
I think open carry in towns just causes people to freak out and call the cops. I really think those guys out in CA that open carry unloaded firearms are really nuts, what the hell good is an unloaded weapon going to be? Why draw attention to themselves? I guess they have some point to prove, but I forget what it is.
I think most businessmen don't open carry so the customers don't freak out, but I bet many have a gun stashed very conveniently, particularly in liqour stores and kwik marts and places that are frequent robbery targets. So if you want to open carry on your land, or in your business, fine, but open carry on the streets seems foolish to me. But if it's legal in your state and you want to do it, thats up to you. I think you're inviting more problems than solving, but do what you feel necessary.

[tv_racin_fan]

To each his own I suppose. My son and I open carry when we feel like it. Kinda hard to conceal a Remington 1858 clone with an 8 inch barrel anyway.

[espresso]

It might be better if bad guys open carried....at least everyone could see it instead of it being tucked away in a pocket.

[Rainman48314]

your thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY&feature=related
First, at the time this happened, CC was not a LEGAL option in Wisconsin. I don't know enough about the individual to comment on him any further.

My own position is that there is a tactical advantage (the element of surprise) to CC. It also leaves me as the sole judge, at least in the heat of the moment, on whether to use my weapon. With OC, there can and will be pressure and coaching from third parties to step in at questionable times.

OC brings unwanted (by me at least) attention from LEOs. I think any "man with gun call" puts me at some risk. The best case is I am delayed going about my business, worst case, I am "accidentally" shot by LEO.

OC is often about political activism. That can be appropriate in some circumstances. Perhaps if I lived in a jurisdiction that did not allow CC permits, I'd feel differently. I'd have no issue with attending an OC Dinner or Picnic once per year. We have groups do those in S. E. Michigan.

[Rainman48314]

I think we are pretty much allowed to open carry throughout the state, but many cities had laws against it. Now we have a statute that says state law outranks any local ordinances, but I have never seen anyone open carrying. Used to see a lot of pickups with shotgun and rifle in the gun racks, but that invited too many break ins and most have quit doing that except during hunting season. We are expressly allowed open carry while hunting, fishing, and have seen people particularly fishermen carrying openly, for protection agains various types of varmints. While on your own property, and in your place of business are also expressly allowed.
The only place I've seen open carry has been in gun stores and pawn shops. I do not want anyone to know I am carrying, except perhaps those I am with, and if I enter someones home I ask if they mind that I have a concealed weapon. I usually know in advance the friends that don't mind and those who want a gun nowhere around.
I often open carry while working on the farm due to the feral dogs that come up now and then, and for skunks that carry rabies a lot here. There's no one around to freak out and it makes salesmen nervous, so it works ok for me.
I think open carry in towns just causes people to freak out and call the cops. I really think those guys out in CA that open carry unloaded firearms are really nuts, what the hell good is an unloaded weapon going to be? Why draw attention to themselves? I guess they have some point to prove, but I forget what it is.
I think most businessmen don't open carry so the customers don't freak out, but I bet many have a gun stashed very conveniently, particularly in liqour stores and kwik marts and places that are frequent robbery targets. So if you want to open carry on your land, or in your business, fine, but open carry on the streets seems foolish to me. But if it's legal in your state and you want to do it, thats up to you. I think you're inviting more problems than solving, but do what you feel necessary.
What a difference a day makes! We agree completely. Mich has OC by default (its not expressly barred). Until all LEOs treat it the way it should be, and until the public is less paranoid, OC is too much of a hassle in the populated areas.

[Rainman48314]

Open carry when legal is no big deal, I have been doing it about 40% of the time I am awake for a couple years now.

I have a dollar to bet that the majority of those against it are either in a place where it is not legal (sorry for your luck) or have not even bothered to try it because of the fear of not being PC.

I have OCed in many major metropolitan cities and have not had any issues. If you carry yourself in a manor that DOESN'T scream "hey I'm armed and you can not do anything about it" you will be fine.

The fact of the matter is that most people are so rapped up in their own self that they can not take their eyes off their b l a c k b e r r y (stupid swear filters), ipod or whatever to even notice I am OCing.
Can you tell me what it is about the 60% of the time you don't OC? Curious.

To your point about being PC. Its not that at all for me. I just don't want to lose my tactical advantage of concealment. I also live in the real world with peple making calls that LEOs are obligated to check out.

You are so right about Blackberries etc.

[Dietrich]

We have open carry in my home state but I don`t do it in places where the public congregates.Only in the woods.I love the fact that because of my age and demeanor,I am one of those people who is virtually invisible.Nobody really notices me and if they do see me,I am forgotten in an instant.The less attention I receive the better I like it.As my good friend Bawanna stated earlier,OC helps me if I inadvertently let my concealed handgun show,so I`m glad it`s legal.As far as OC being the topic of discussion,I believe it will be an argument that will not be resolved any sooner than the "What is the the best self defense ammunition for my handgun" question. I don`t know a great deal of people who open carry in public but as far as the ones I do know,they all seem to thrive on being confronted and arguing with someone about it.What they lack in the art of debate,they make up for in volume.
As far as the gang banger thing goes,I don`t believe a gang banger would want the cops seeing him open carry a gun.That would be like standing on the corner and waving a kilo of cocaine at passing patrol cars.As bold as they are,they don`t need the unwanted attention either.And believe me,if the cops saw what they suspect or know to be a felon open carrying a gun,he would get lots of attention.
Concerning the guy in the video who had his gun taken away by a BG,it just reinforces the argument that concealed is better.If a criminal sees a gun,he just may look on it as an in your face type of challenge.

[Barth]

I haven’t read the prior posts.
My way of thinking on the subject is twofold.
1) For self-defense the element of surprise is an advantage I’d rather not waive.
2) Some portion of the public seems accepting that I’m armed as long as they don’t see it.

Additionally, although not LE, it seems like an additional burden
having to check out these folks.

[JFootin]

I haven’t read the prior posts.
My way of thinking on the subject is twofold.
1) For self-defense the element of surprise is an advantage I’d rather not waive.
2) Some portion of the public seems accepting that I’m armed as long as they don’t see it.

Additionally, although not LE, it seems like an additional burden
having to check out these folks.


+1 on this statement. Says all that needs to be said, IMO.

[Sparks1957]

Here in VT we have some of the most relaxed laws in the country about carrying firearms; it is perfectly legal to carry, either openly or concealed, walking down the street, in your vehicle, most anywhere with the exception of school property/courthouses/government offices, etc.

That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to let people know you're carrying. In fact, being too obvious about it can invite trouble. Better to carry discretely and avoid trouble if possible, but the first rule of carrying is that you better be prepared to use your weapon if you have to. Otherwise it may get taken away from and used against you.

I think a lot of folks fall into kind of romantic idea about carrying, that just having a gun is some kind of magical thing that will protect them. With it goes responsibilty.

Also, open carry does not help our image in the eyes of the anti-gun folks... they see it as threatening behavior and re-double their efforts to ban them...

[CJB]

I like what they did here in Florida. We're a concealed carry state, except when fishing, hunting or on some other legal expedition (define THAT in court... riiiiiiight). Anyway, they made it _not_ illegal to briefly and/or inadvertently expose the concealed weapon, so long as it is not done in a threatening or harassing manner.

This might be - transferring from holster or pocket to container in your vehicle, or when taking off a jacket to get in/out of a vehicle, shirt riding up, jacket riding up or open in front, reaching for something and having the pistol exposed, etc etc. IOW, your doing something and "it shows", you're ok. Sort of like a ***-slip wardrobe malfunction wont get the fairer gender in the kalaboose neither.

[knkali]

Seems like a lot of people think of open carry and cc as mutually exclusive. One or the other. Are most laws like that? IOW either its cc in a state or open but not both? I think that it should be an option to the PERMIT holder. Yes I said it. I think that everyone who carries should have some training and therefore "permitted" to carry-- open or cc. A right to be armed? Sure, but we live and interact a lot around other people so you have to know what you are doing too.

Now if there is a tactical advantage to cc. Then I would expect gang bangers to cc even if open carry was allowed--right?

Its the person not the gun that causes the problems. If someone wants to do bad things with a gun cc or open doesnt matter. Would a ccw permit holder be more apt to use his weapon if carried openly? I doubt it. Are there any stats on this from open carry states? Exclude Calif. Calif is open carry if UNLOADED.

[CJB]

.Just my two cents - the "there's a man with a gun!" scenario is only valid in places where the social ingraining is pre-conditioned to assume all guns are forbidden. Those places would be most of the northeast (liberal) states.

This may devo the excellent conversation into a darker corridor, but its not the intended purpose of my supposition.

I dare say the "man with a gun" call in New Jersey or Long Island would have a hugely different response than the "man with a gun" call in Florida or Texas. I'm quite certain that dispatchers - several of which I know in Florida - would ask some questions and make an assessment, while those in other places might hit the panic button (figuratively).

Take that all into consideration, remembering there are places in these United States, where the police are called, responding to a threat, because a kid in grade school uses his pointer finger and thumb as a toy pistol playing outdoors during recess. Such is the social hysteria in some places, and worse.... also considering the wee cowboy, now minus his imaginary horse, gets a ride in a police car, and held in a room until his parents can come and the decision is made as to whether charges will be pressed. Sigh.

[stumprat]

I support those that choose open carry. But for me. A bad guy should only know that I am armed when it is too late!

[yqtszhj]

I would rather keep folks guessing personally. Aside from that, here is a thought.
What if you had to qualify for CCW before open carrying? Then they would be "registered" and a concealed carry SNAFU wouldn't get someone locked up. Just a thought.

[wyntrout]

Open carry is an invite to theft, too. A bad guy only has to snatch the gun from your holster or whatever usual tricks he uses to separate people from their valuables. The GUN is a TARGET of value, too.

I have situational awareness that I learned in the military and I stay away from crowds, but I couldn't handle the paranoia if I openly carried... which I would never do, except for walks in the woods... the "wild areas". People who wander around weaponless in the wilderness areas are just nuts! THEY are not at the TOP of the FOOD chain there!

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

I would rather keep folks guessing personally. Aside from that, here is a thought.
What if you had to qualify for CCW before open carrying? Then they would be "registered" and a concealed carry SNAFU wouldn't get someone locked up. Just a thought.

Many states already require a course to get a CCW. We in Washington don't so far. I hate the thought myself. I find it difficult to qualify an instructor. I don't mean create or teach an instructor but what makes a guy qualified to be an instructor. Who decides. Like our state hunter safety instructors. The course my kids went thru was traumatic. You jump thru a whole bunch of hoops with the state and presto slammo your an instructor and get to intimidate and frighten young people. I don't have a solution to suggest only an issue to ponder. I've seen a few that in my opinion had no business carrying a gun themselves and they are teaching others.

There are exceptions of course but for some reason any instruction involving guns brings out the drill instructor rambo mentality.

Plus it would be a nightmare and huge waiting lines to take the course especially if you have to shot a qual. I can see the price going up and up everytime the budget is a little tight.

I think I'd slip under the radar and just do what I'm doing sans permit myself.

True there are a multitude of folks that sorely could use instruction, all of us to a certain degree. Then you have the ever growing stupid class. Kind of a harsh category indeed but you just can't fix stupid. I know of examples of college graduates who are and always have been stupid.

[Sparks1957]

Then you have the ever growing stupid class. Kind of a harsh category indeed but you just can't fix stupid. I know of examples of college graduates who are and always have been stupid.

Whew, so it isn't just me that thinks there's an epidemic of stupidity spreading through the human race. ;)

I have to say I would probably take my chances if a law was passed here requiring a permit for concealed carry. There are circumstances that sometimes require a little civil disobedience. I respect the law, generally, when the law makes sense.

[OldLincoln]

Old Lincoln,

I am not reading your post right. Please do not take this the wrong way. I am having problems with your position not because I disagree with you, but because I do not fully understand what your position is. Please give me another shot (sic) at what your point is. I want to express that my original post considers open carry is only done where it is legal.

Sorry for the confusion. Often times my fingers do the thinking while my brain takes a break.

I live in CA where OC is a big issue. The law splits hairs over it stating that you can OC an unloaded gun but not loaded. An exception is made for rural areas where you may OC loaded. A movement began to try and get the public inoculated to the notion, but urban ares in CA really aren't about to change from outright hatred of guns to acceptance of OC anytime soon.

I lived in the mountains for a short time in a cabin away from town. We had the wilderness all around us and having the tar scared out of me by a very large mountain lion, I carried anytime out of the cabin. Going into the nearby town you'd see OC a lot as us outliers never bothered to disarm. There it was mountain rules and nobody paid any mind to it. Starbucks in the city was another matter, however, and OC caused a lot of anxiety among the sheep.

The part about my concern about gangbangers doing OC is that if everybody can OC, that includes them and kids over 18 who took out dad's gun to show off, and all the ball busters walking the streets looking to start trouble. We have gang issues here and they are not the least afraid of facing a gun especially when they have one also. They often walk several abreast talking tough profanity and just aching to pick a fight. This is just the kind of situation my SA tells me to avoid, which I do by giving them a lot of room.

Now strap loaded guns to their side and let them see their enemy gang and you have instant trouble. Even if they have concealed guns there is a chance they will just bad mouth and posture. The OC will draw attention and I imagine one yelling at the other "What are you going to do, pull your little ass gun on me?" only in gang language. Now you have a gun fight and the cops are only 25 minutes away (budget cuts).

I admit I'm the cautious type. I dislike even driving south of a mental boundary in town because that's getting into trouble town. I have been exposed to the bad guys having worked for a drug rehab company that contracted with the state to take early out felons into the programs and a few working visits inside a max security prison. Walking through the open yard with a few hundred men looking like Hulk Hogan only covered in tattoos glaring at me gave me the awareness that I really am no match for bad guys. They don't just slap you around they put you in the hospital at the least. My wife needs me too much to take any chances.

So a very lengthy reply to your question. I'm not an advocate for either position, so this is only my personal take. I'm comfortable with the background checks and training requirements for CCW in CA and don't consider others legally carrying a threat for carrying. I would if there were no requirements either for CC or OC.

[yqtszhj]

Many states already require a course to get a CCW. We in Washington don't so far. I hate the thought myself. I find it difficult to qualify an instructor. I don't mean create or teach an instructor but what makes a guy qualified to be an instructor. Who decides. Like our state hunter safety instructors. The course my kids went thru was traumatic. You jump thru a whole bunch of hoops with the state and presto slammo your an instructor and get to intimidate and frighten young people. I don't have a solution to suggest only an issue to ponder. I've seen a few that in my opinion had no business carrying a gun themselves and they are teaching others.

There are exceptions of course but for some reason any instruction involving guns brings out the drill instructor rambo mentality.

Plus it would be a nightmare and huge waiting lines to take the course especially if you have to shot a qual. I can see the price going up and up everytime the budget is a little tight.

I think I'd slip under the radar and just do what I'm doing sans permit myself.

True there are a multitude of folks that sorely could use instruction, all of us to a certain degree. Then you have the ever growing stupid class. Kind of a harsh category indeed but you just can't fix stupid. I know of examples of college graduates who are and always have been stupid.

I'm thinking simplistic like the rest of the country is like my state of AL.

Qualification is "Here, fill out this form. Now let me see, do you pass this background check? Give me $20. OK, here's your permit. We'll send you a card next year when it's time to renew." It varies a little by your county but a background check is all you need to pass.

Some may think this is not enough but MOST people here grew up with firearms, hunting, shooting, etc... Not that it means there is not stupid here but I'll refer to your last paragraph above for the rest of my opinion. If you really screw up, they will lock you up too for not following the rules.

One thing though. Alabama is not a Gold Star open carry state. But I would think as long as your not a trouble maker if something came up most police may say go down to the sheriff's office and pay your $20 and just cover it up with your shirt. Better not to cause trouble. Live and let Live, it's a free country.

[TheTman]

I think a gang banger would be the last to open carry, many already have felonies, and should not have a gun. And I think they are the last ones that want the cops called on them. They may be quick to display them, but they keep them hidden until they "need" them. Around here anyways.

[Bawanna]

"I respect the law, generally, when the law makes sense. "

You have no idea how many times I've said these exact same words. I sometimes substitute law with rules. Same difference.

yqtszhj, thats exactly the way it is here. Do the background, give me the money, good to go for 5 years.
Theres brand new law here that folks with a CPL issued after July 31'st will now not even have to get the background check when they purchase a gun. The big concern is alot of generally good guys can do alot of bad things in a 5 year period.
I don't mind the background with a CCW, it's quick and you get the gun right away.
What I don't like is the states that you have to qualify with a certain gun and if you get a new gun you gotta add to the CCW. Some I'm not sure you can even have more than one.

[MW surveyor]

"What I don't like is the states that you have to qualify with a certain gun and if you get a new gun you gotta add to the CCW. Some I'm not sure you can even have more than one.

Here in Texas we have a stupid rule that if you take your CCW qualification with a revolver; all you can carry is a revolver. But.....If you qualify with a semi-auto, you can carry a semi-auto or a revolver.

Not sure how they came up with this one. :confused:

What the heck, revolver shooters are dense or something?:32:

[Chuck54]

Weapon Retention









Element of suprise

[TheTman]

Let's say you're at the kwik mart making a purchase, armed gunmen burst in wanting money. You're open carrying, so instead of being an innocent bystander you're now one of the targets they are watching. Could end badly for everyone.
I'd much rather go unnoticed as a bystander and have the element of surprise on my side. Plus being an middle-aged or older small guy, people aren't looking at me as particularly dangerous anyway, so that's another plus on my side. If things look like they are getting out of hand, I might try and draw my weapon, otherwise, if they get the money and move on without harming anyone, I'll do my best to get descriptions and tag numbers and let the police handle it. I sure as heck ain't going to play cop if I don't have too, I'm not trained in that area and could cause people to get hurt that wouldn't have otherwise.

[Sparks1957]

As the last few posters have said, it's the conditions on the CC permit that concern me. I'll do a background check at any depth anytime. I have to do one periodically to maintain my professional license, and I buy quite a few guns so I go through that process regularly.

Require that I qualify with a specific weapon of my choice or theirs, or limit how many I can own or which ones I can carry, and you've crossed the line where I'll probably rebel. :cool:

[jocko]

some where I read, where; GUN CONTROL IS MAKING THE FIRST SHOT COUNT!!!

[pappy42]

Open carry will assure you of careful attention from your local law enforcement agency after "a man with a gun" call from a citizen.

It might also earn you a Mozambique drill from either a LEO or concealed carry citizen if a shot is fired.

I don't have a problem about anyone's oppinion about what is right or wrong; I'm just not going to advertise: "Shoot me first!"

[yqtszhj]

Let's say you're at the kwik mart making a purchase,...

I first read this and I thought "quickie mart??? They have markets for that"

Shiny........

[johnh]

:D Okay that was funny yqtszhj! Never thought of the expression quite that way before... ;)

On the topic, this has been an interesting read. Lots of good points made on both sides that I had not thought of. I suppose I will take the position that 1) if it is your right in your state/community, you should be free to exercise it with no concern about consequences; 2) the practical reality may differ with what should be your right to no negative consequences. I tend to come down on the side of practical, so would not carry that way even though I can here. My end goal is to make sure that by carrying, I am best able to defend myself and my loved ones. I see that having concealment gives me more potential options in various situations that might arise, while incurring only a very slight time delay in terms of my ability to draw my sidearm. So weighing pros and cons, there are more pros with concealed carry than open carry. It really had nothing at that point to do with what my rights should be, or asserting some right to carry openly. It has to do with the greatest defensive edge gained. It is good to have an edge....

[CJB]

Thinking on it, im more in favor of keep it covered....but if it shows a little....big deal. I want to carry just in case I need it...hope for best prepare for worst.

[knkali]

cant get anymore edge than actually having you hand on your weapon. Cant do that when concealed. Just a thought guys

[Scoundrel]

Many states already require a course to get a CCW. We in Washington don't so far. I hate the thought myself. I find it difficult to qualify an instructor. I don't mean create or teach an instructor but what makes a guy qualified to be an instructor. Who decides. Like our state hunter safety instructors. The course my kids went thru was traumatic. You jump thru a whole bunch of hoops with the state and presto slammo your an instructor and get to intimidate and frighten young people. I don't have a solution to suggest only an issue to ponder. I've seen a few that in my opinion had no business carrying a gun themselves and they are teaching others.

There are exceptions of course but for some reason any instruction involving guns brings out the drill instructor rambo mentality.


I drove to Idaho to take a couple of classes with Michael Loy at The Hyphen Company (http://thehyphencompany.com/). One was a classroom-only 5-hour course to qualify for the CCW application's training requirement for Utah, Oregon, and Idaho.

The other was a live fire course on an outdoor range, starting with the basics and moving up to the final exercise, which involved moving forward and backward, shooting at multiple targets while getting from one piece of cover to another, reloading magazines during the process.

I felt that he was a good, level-headed instructor and the experience was a positive one.

Not sure if it was worth the drive to Coeur D'Alene, Idaho from Western Washington, as there are closer classes of this type, but seeing your post I feel a little better about it.

[JFootin]

cant get anymore edge than actually having you hand on your weapon. Cant do that when concealed. Just a thought guys

You can do that while remaining innocent and casual looking with front pocket carry. Heck, you just like to put your hands in your pockets, right? You could even make a habit of just casually having your hands in your pockets. But in reality, you can get a secure and correct grip on your gun, ready to deploy it if the situation warrants it. If not, the fact that you are carrying remains a secret.

[Scoundrel]

OK, I slogged through all of the posts, and still have a couple of things to add:

Regarding those "man with a gun" 911 calls, where someone mentioned that the 911 operator could ask a couple of questions and determine whether an officer response was necessary: Would you really want them to do so? How much training do they get? With any amount of training, would it be a good idea to have operators trying to assess these situations over the phone? Maybe a seemingly innocuous (at first) situation could turn into a more dire one later, when the BG was first testing the waters by having the gun exposed, while working up the nerve to do worse. If the 911 operator judged that the initial call was not a big deal, imagine the consequences.

I was searching for facts, opinions and information about the whole "open carry or not" question a couple of months ago, and I found a very good practical treatise on it. I will copy/paste it below. Note that it was written from the perspective that open carry is legal. Also, it contains many of the points already discussed - but it brings them together.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Does my gun have to be concealed when I carry? Can't I legally carry the gun on me in plain view?

Technically yes, BUT:

1) The first person who sees it and freaks out will call the police, and you will have a conversation with the authorities. It may go well, it may not go well, it depends on who answers the call and how they feel about what you are doing. But it will get no better than "a long conversation with the police". It can get considerably worse. You will win in the end, but the hassle involved could be excessive and expensive.

2) If the restaurant / establishment owner decides to throw you out, he can do so legally. It may also make an enemy out of a business owner who was previously uninvolved in gun control. People hate to have their faces rubbed in things they are unfamiliar with, or that frighten them (no matter how irrational that fear may be). There are better ways to win hearts and minds than frightening someone's patrons, no matter how valid your stance may be.

3) It is tactically foolish, bordering on suicide. Never let the bad guy know anything more about you than you have to. Surprise is one of the greatest advantages, don't give it up when you are fighting for your life.

4) The first predator that decides to walk up behind you and just yank that gun out of your holster will probably have no problem doing so. Or he may just punch your lights out and take it off your unconscious body. A sucker-punch from an ex-con who's been lifting weights and punching the heavy bag in prison for the last 8 years packs a hell of a wallop. There are even "schools" in some prisons where inmates teach and practice disarming police. If you do not see it coming, there is little you can do to stop it.

5) Depending on who you are reading, between 40% and 75% of all cops shot, are shot with their own gun. These are professionals, trained in weapon retention, carrying in at least level 3 retention holsters, and they are still disarmed with frightening regularity. What level of retention is your holster? How many hours of Officer Survival training do you have?

You may feel the political statement outweighs the potential for legal entanglements, backfiring on you, or getting you killed. We will not tell you not to do it. We only offer these arguments for your consideration. And another opinion:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n9_v40/ai_17608787

• Should you be able to carry open? YES, it is legally your right.
• Should other people be cool about your sidearm? YES, that would be nice.
• If EVERYONE carried open, might things be different? YES, that would be nice, too.
• Are there some very serious considerations regarding open carry? YES.
• Please choose wisely, and after much consideration of both sides of the issue.

[knkali]

You can do that while remaining innocent and casual looking with front pocket carry. Heck, you just like to put your hands in your pockets, right? You could even make a habit of just casually having your hands in your pockets. But in reality, you can get a secure and correct grip on your gun, ready to deploy it if the situation warrants it. If not, the fact that you are carrying remains a secret.

good point

[knkali]

OK, I slogged through all of the posts, and still have a couple of things to add:

Regarding those "man with a gun" 911 calls, where someone mentioned that the 911 operator could ask a couple of questions and determine whether an officer response was necessary: Would you really want them to do so? How much training do they get? With any amount of training, would it be a good idea to have operators trying to assess these situations over the phone? Maybe a seemingly innocuous (at first) situation could turn into a more dire one later, when the BG was first testing the waters by having the gun exposed, while working up the nerve to do worse. If the 911 operator judged that the initial call was not a big deal, imagine the consequences.

I was searching for facts, opinions and information about the whole "open carry or not" question a couple of months ago, and I found a very good practical treatise on it. I will copy/paste it below. Note that it was written from the perspective that open carry is legal. Also, it contains many of the points already discussed - but it brings them together.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Does my gun have to be concealed when I carry? Can't I legally carry the gun on me in plain view?

Technically yes, BUT:

1) The first person who sees it and freaks out will call the police, and you will have a conversation with the authorities. It may go well, it may not go well, it depends on who answers the call and how they feel about what you are doing. But it will get no better than "a long conversation with the police". It can get considerably worse. You will win in the end, but the hassle involved could be excessive and expensive.

2) If the restaurant / establishment owner decides to throw you out, he can do so legally. It may also make an enemy out of a business owner who was previously uninvolved in gun control. People hate to have their faces rubbed in things they are unfamiliar with, or that frighten them (no matter how irrational that fear may be). There are better ways to win hearts and minds than frightening someone's patrons, no matter how valid your stance may be.

3) It is tactically foolish, bordering on suicide. Never let the bad guy know anything more about you than you have to. Surprise is one of the greatest advantages, don't give it up when you are fighting for your life.

4) The first predator that decides to walk up behind you and just yank that gun out of your holster will probably have no problem doing so. Or he may just punch your lights out and take it off your unconscious body. A sucker-punch from an ex-con who's been lifting weights and punching the heavy bag in prison for the last 8 years packs a hell of a wallop. There are even "schools" in some prisons where inmates teach and practice disarming police. If you do not see it coming, there is little you can do to stop it.

5) Depending on who you are reading, between 40% and 75% of all cops shot, are shot with their own gun. These are professionals, trained in weapon retention, carrying in at least level 3 retention holsters, and they are still disarmed with frightening regularity. What level of retention is your holster? How many hours of Officer Survival training do you have?

You may feel the political statement outweighs the potential for legal entanglements, backfiring on you, or getting you killed. We will not tell you not to do it. We only offer these arguments for your consideration. And another opinion:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n9_v40/ai_17608787

• Should you be able to carry open? YES, it is legally your right.
• Should other people be cool about your sidearm? YES, that would be nice.
• If EVERYONE carried open, might things be different? YES, that would be nice, too.
• Are there some very serious considerations regarding open carry? YES.
• Please choose wisely, and after much consideration of both sides of the issue.

nice overview!

[SkeletonSlinky]

Sums up my thoughts on the subject...I'll continue to front pocket carry...hand on weapon, if necessary...with none the wiser!

[Ubaldo99]

OC is not an option in Texas, but even if it were I prefer CC and would continue in that mode even if the State of Texas (in its infinite wisdom; all genuflect before the semi-holy personage of Governor for Life, Rick Perry, who shot my pet coyote) legalized OC for the reasons stated above. If you're still reading this after that convulated sentence, then thanks and you have too much time on your hands. :-)

[OldLincoln]

Okay, just finished reading an article about public nudity (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0908-public-nudity-20110908,0,4290865.story?trac=lat-pick) in San Francisco. I didn't know it but apparently it is not illegal to bare all in the great city. Funny, when I was growing up we visited relatives there a few times per year. It was considered unseemly to go downtown in less than coat and tie for men and hat & gloves for women. Times change.

Anyway, the point is.... If it's legal to stroll around in the buff in San Francisco, does that mean everyone should to express their lawful rights? Should those espousing open carry rush to the great city by the bay and park their clothes in the suitcase - just because they can?

Not picking a fight, just read the article and although the thread has pretty much ran it's course, had to toss it in. Funny, this coming from one who receives persistent admonitions to "Put some clothes on!"

[ltxi]

Seems to me to be an appropriate end topic for this open vs concealed carry thread.

Showing your age there Old Lincoln. The old era of the City By The Bay went totally south in the mid late 60's. As I understand it, the summer of love was "totally awesome". Unfortunately, I got to spend it in an elsewhere jungle so there's a bit of jealousy speaking here.

[JFootin]

I heard a report on Fox News today about a city councilman in SF proposing a law that says nudists in the city must put down a towel or something before sitting anywhere in public (park bench, bus seat, ?). So, there are people there who "exercise their right" to be naked and do so regularly in a particular part of the city.

[tv_racin_fan]

When OC is the only legal option one either goes OC, does not carry at all or carries illegally.

[jocko]

illegally, sounds like the dress of the day then for this ol timer. I just cannot acceot OC.

[Popeye]

I guess OC just reminds me of when I was in the Navy having to stand watch at the top of the gang plank when the ship was in port. I carried a 1911 at the time and often though to myself this gun sure might make me look like someone you wouldn't want to mess with providing you didn't know any better. In reality though this 1911 was worthless if someone with a rifle wanted to take me out. All it did is make me the first target if someone was to want to come aboard the ship and cause some mayhem. Now the only way I would OC is if I was in the wilderness somewhere. I like having the eliment of suprise on my side by CC. Alway will believe though that awareness of your surroundings will do more for you than any gun will.

[tv_racin_fan]

I think some give the bad guys to much credit.

Locally some bad guys were intending to rob a diner. One of the bad guys went in to "case" the diner and he spotted two fellers who open carry. The bad guys decided to wait on those two fellers to leave before robbing the diner. In the mean time an astute LEO spotted the bad guys auto behind the diner and he went to check it out. Upon confronting the armed bad guys they admitted that they had not robbed the diner due to the two fellers who happened to be armed inside the diner. Ironically, apparently those two fellers were leaving at the time the astute LEO made his move.

I full well understand the pros and cons to both OC and CC and I choose to carry as I see fit at the given moment.

[Popeye]

If OC was the only legal way to carry, then I would OC but would end up probably carrying a lot less then I presently do as I do not like the attention it brings. Much of which is of a negative nature. I have no desire to make anyone uncomfortable,especially women with young children with me being in there presents. This doesn't happen and knowone is the wiser when I CC and I'm cool with just being another face in the crowd.

Simply put, Carrying a gun is my choice, and it should have no effect on anyone else as they go about there lives.

To each there own though, but I'll keep my PM9 close an tucked away. It's what works for me.