Please listen Kahr Corp--Re-engineer Magazine

[Russ]

The magazine plate for the 6 round CM9 kept sliding open while shooting. I corrected the problem by sliding the plate slightly open and inserting a drop of hot glue in the round part of the plate and quickly closing the plate.

If Kahr ever reads what owners are saying, please listen. Your magazine design needs to be re-engineered. It is a joke that I am using hot glue to keep the bottom plate from coming off during normal use. I also had to hand grind the front rounded part of a second magazine I purchased for my CM9 because the Kahr mag would not drop out of the gun.

While talking magazines, I would like to see the bottom of the magazine when placed in the CM9/Pm9 look finished. My CM9 is a nice looking firearm until you look at the bottom of the magazine. It looks like it is not finished. I read a thread on kahrtalk of a CM9 owner who took the plastic bottom plate he purchased from Kahr for the CW 40 and modified it to fit the 6 round Cm9 magazine. It made his Cm9 look finished. (You can view his finished magazine pictures on this forum)

If a guy with a few simple tools from his garage can make the Kahr magazine look 100 % better looking what is keeping Kahr from making a 6 round magazine look and operate like it should ?

If you can't figure out how to make a magazine work and look right I suggest you hire the guy I have mentioned to work from his home as an offsite Kahr gunsmith. I would gladly pay a few extra dollars for a magazine that looked finished and dropped out when I depress the magazine release button. Regards, Russ

[JFootin]

+1, and also on the follower hanging on the slide release causing nose dives, broken followers, split mag bodies and bullets falling out in your pocket. Come on! Beretta, Glock and others make mags that are 100% reliable. Glock even manages to make those 32 round mags work reliably. If you can't figure it out, contract with someone who can.

[slowpoke]

And, the way Kahr mags can start unloading themselves if not retained by a mag carrier is a bit annoying. But in all fairness, my Glock mags do it also..

[yqtszhj]

I think it's a QC issue myself. I would bet their CM9 and associated accessories (mags, parts, etc...) are as hot as the LCP was a couple of years ago when you couldn't find one and in the mass mfg process quality control may be slipping slightly. But again I have never had an issue with my CM9 or CW9 for what that's worth too. So it could be if you make 100 and only 1 is bad you only have 1 issue, but if you make 1000 and 10 are bad then you have 10 unhappy customers. Both are still a 99% success rate.

[CJB]

Ok, wait a dadburn'd second....

Firs' of all, one (or a few) report (s) of magazine base retention is not some reason to go out and redesign something that works well in all other instances. Jeeeze... there was a part problem, not a design problem. Either the dimple wasn't good, or the base itself, or maybe there was something on the magazine body that had an issue... who knows. A few pictures would have solved the mystery I'm sure.

Next... the bullets falling out thing. Guess what, almost all single stack 9mm magazines suffer from that, because the 9mm case is tapered, and you get rather weird combined effect with the tensioning in the magazine. The P08 Luger did it, the Walther P38 did it, the S&W 39 did it (to a lesser extent), the Colt 1911 in 9mm did it, and the Kahr does it....and Glock too I see. The problem is made worse by the relatively short throw of the Kahr cycle, whereas, the cartridge must be released rather early. In the Luger, the cartridge is released later, and in the 39, its later still, but you still have the problem to some extent. Straight sided cases, like the .45acp, .38 Super, and to a point, the .380's don't have the problem either.

The followers though... should be right. Snagging on the slide stop and nosediving the rounds on account of it is just bad QC. Right on the money with that one.

[O'Dell]

+1, and also on the follower hanging on the slide release causing nose dives, broken followers, split mag bodies and bullets falling out in your pocket. Come on! Beretta, Glock and others make mags that are 100% reliable. Glock even manages to make those 32 round mags work reliably. If you can't figure it out, contract with someone who can.

Very true. I'd also like to sent the same message to Kimber. They supply ONE [1] mag on their $1000+ pistols and the one they include is substandard. I had to spend $70 to buy two that would work. BTW, the original Kimber mag won't work with my other 1911's either.

[OldLincoln]

I strongly support Kahrs but not their magazines (which they don't manufacture). I suspect they didn't design them either but contracted with a magazine company to design build and supply the mags.

They are definitely not up to expectations however and although I almost always agree with CJB, I believe they can do better. Yes some other mags have problems also, but the number of cracked mags, spread lips, failures to feed, etc. doesn't benefit Kahr's reputation.

Have you ever wondered why so many guns are returned to owners noted they cleaned the ramp and test fired okay? Gee, think the testers are using the customer's mags or their bench mags?

I'd like to have Kahr send 100 new mags picked at random to Jocko who seems to shoot a lot and have him test them. Just mark them OK or Fail and report to Kahr on them. I don't have any reason to believe that Kahr tests their new mags at all. They just toss the sealed mag bag into the box and ship.

Mine, too had issues and I took it on to modify them and they have been perfect since - a long time. If I can mod therm and they are perfect, why can't they be perfect from manufacture? BTW, I'm talking about the infamous 7 rd mags.

And cracks!!! Why should ANY mag crack? I'll tell you why these do and it's also why they don't drop free and rounds fall out in the pocket and likely why they don't feed properly. The metal flexes at the top!! If made with stronger metal and to exact tolerances they would be good. It bothers me that they cost so much and made so cheap.

Again, I love Kahrs, just not the mags they buy to include with them. You're better than that Kahr, and can do better.

[CJB]

Well the metal flexes on other magazines too.... I think just about every single column mag flexes, while double column's seem to be stronger - probably due to the fold in them. Online somplace - I've seen it but no bookmarked it - is a really thorough discussion, with pictures, of all the 1911 magazine lip formations. The things you didn't know about magazines! Angled, semi angled, angled/straight, total straight, strait/angled (opposite), you name it... all in the name of feeding either one bullet type, ie semi-wadcutters or trying to feed everything there is from semi-wads, to roundnose, to truncated, to hollowpoint, etc etc.

They can do better, agreed. Thing I wonder about, and there is no before/after pictures (hardly) is those "polish the ramp" jobs. My PM45 came with a polished ramp. Not mirror bright, but it had been polished before nickle plate was applied. With just a minor bit of shooting, there were mirror bright surfaces on it.

I can only speak for me - I've got five PM45 magazines. I've got five PM9 magazines - but only shot two. All ten, bases are fine. All ten drop fine. Seven I've shot, shoot fine.

Back up there mentioned truncated cones. My PM45 liked those the best, at any length. Overly long round or hollow point... was a problem. Short was better - perfect in fact. But truncated cones just flew through there like poo thru a goose.

[slowpoke]

Ok, wait a dadburn'd second....



Next... the bullets falling out thing. Guess what, almost all single stack 9mm magazines suffer from that, because the 9mm case is tapered, and you get rather weird combined effect with the tensioning in the magazine. The P08 Luger did it, the Walther P38 did it, the S&W 39 did it (to a lesser extent), the Colt 1911 in 9mm did it, and the Kahr does it....and Glock too I see. The problem is made worse by the relatively short throw of the Kahr cycle, whereas, the cartridge must be released rather early. In the Luger, the cartridge is released later, and in the 39, its later still, but you still have the problem to some extent. Straight sided cases, like the .45acp, .38 Super, and to a point, the .380's don't have the problem either.

.
You’ve made some excellent points that I was unaware of. I’ve never been a big 9mm fan in the past and the only 9’s I’ve owned were double stackers. Old age has got me to favor the 9’s a little more theses days and while both my Kahrs in 40 & 9 have the same habit of the magazines trying to unload themselves it wasn't a deal breaker for me as it just got me in the habit of using mag carriers which solves the problem...

[jocko]

I strongly support Kahrs but not their magazines (which they don't manufacture). I suspect they didn't design them either but contracted with a magazine company to design build and supply the mags.

They are definitely not up to expectations however and although I almost always agree with CJB, I believe they can do better. Yes some other mags have problems also, but the number of cracked mags, spread lips, failures to feed, etc. doesn't benefit Kahr's reputation.

Have you ever wondered why so many guns are returned to owners noted they cleaned the ramp and test fired okay? Gee, think the testers are using the customer's mags or their bench mags?

I'd like to have Kahr send 100 new mags picked at random to Jocko who seems to shoot a lot and have him test them. Just mark them OK or Fail and report to Kahr on them. I don't have any reason to believe that Kahr tests their new mags at all. They just toss the sealed mag bag into the box and ship.

Mine, too had issues and I took it on to modify them and they have been perfect since - a long time. If I can mod therm and they are perfect, why can't they be perfect from manufacture? BTW, I'm talking about the infamous 7 rd mags.

And cracks!!! Why should ANY mag crack? I'll tell you why these do and it's also why they don't drop free and rounds fall out in the pocket and likely why they don't feed properly. The metal flexes at the top!! If made with stronger metal and to exact tolerances they would be good. It bothers me that they cost so much and made so cheap.

Again, I love Kahrs, just not the mags they buy to include with them. You're better than that Kahr, and can do better. kahr does not test fire with the mags that you utlimately get out of the box. Their test mags are exactly the same only we know they arent cracking (or we think they are not). Magazines should ot crack, I just wonder what is actually causing them to crack even . I have studeid their workings etc and just cannot for the life of me figure out why they crack and i MEAN WE SEE CRACKED MAGAZINES IN LESS THEN 50 rounds, SO IT IS NOT WEAR AND TEAR. i HAVE OVERF 32k OUT OF MY TWO MAGS AND NEVER HAD ONE ISSUE, NOT Because MY MAGS ARE ANY BETTER THAN WHAT COMES WITH ALL KAHRS. SO IS IT GUN RELATED that is causing this to happen, and if so why or what is causing it. certainly not recoil doing it, and being made of stailess these are not cheap ass mags. I have no clue as to what the cause is but I would be it is more gun (that exact gun) related than actually defective magazines. My P380 has a cracked magaxine inless then 50 rounds, got a replacement and it has never cracked again, so what changedf?// I have no clue. It is never the welds that crack but both sides of the magazine when it makes the bend. akAHRS DOESNT MAKE THEMAGS, most gun companies do not make their mag, but speciality copanys that are supposed to know what they are dcoing make them, and we just do not read about thjis cracking thing with other gun makers. They have bad magazies in alot of guns but not cracking crapola. Kahrs has to be concerned about this but they will never tell us eithger way. One day this issue will just dissapear, but for now not so..

I certainly do not feel their mags are cheap made...

[ltxi]

Daily carry and many thousands of rounds since I got into 9mm Kahrs over three years ago. I've never had a problem with any of their oem magazines.

[Barth]

Hate to jinx my good luck.
But I have to say that my MK40's original 5 round and 6 round mags,
plus an additional 6 rounder bought from Kahr,
have been of the very best quality.

Other than being little fussy feeding some ammo, and having to be careful
reassembling, I'm very pleased with it's performance, fit and finish.

[apdturbo]

if kahr doesn't produce their own mags then why doesn't some other company come out with a better version, they would obviously sell a lot, maybe an all polymer mag, or metal but black and coated for durability, different feed angle and follower angle, lesser mag spring weight and shaved followers. i'm sure all mag issues would be solved if someone produced it, and i'm sure kahr would reconsider their contract with the current manufacturer to opt for the new.

[JFootin]

if kahr doesn't produce their own mags then why doesn't some other company come out with a better version, they would obviously sell a lot, maybe an all polymer mag, or metal but black and coated for durability, different feed angle and follower angle, lesser mag spring weight and shaved followers. i'm sure all mag issues would be solved if someone produced it, and i'm sure kahr would reconsider their contract with the current manufacturer to opt for the new.
__________________
peace on earth


Amen and amen! :hippie:

[OldLincoln]

Online somplace - I've seen it but no bookmarked it - is a really thorough discussion, with pictures, of all the 1911 magazine lip formations. The things you didn't know about magazines! Angled, semi angled, angled/straight, total straight, strait/angled (opposite), you name it... all in the name of feeding either one bullet type, ie semi-wadcutters or trying to feed everything there is from semi-wads, to roundnose, to truncated, to hollowpoint, etc etc.


The posts are in the M1911.org forum, Magazine subforum (http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=53). I went to school on this stuff when I got new magazines for Dad's Colt, an alloy frame Lightweight Commander. I was having follower gouge in the feed ramp and learned a lot of stuff there. I had to sell my new MCM mags for Check-Mate mags, even retiring the original mag. These work perfectly.

Gotta keep in mid the 1911 design feeds a little differently than most modern autos in that it's a "controlled feed" whereby the round is managed all the way up under the extractor. Most new guns have a toss/catch arrangement that seems to work well but it makes a difference in the feed lips.

I didn't link a thread because you really need to read all the sticky threads to get the total picture. It was there that I got the notion to tweak my mag lips which fixed my issues with the PM9.

[Barth]

Sort of off topic.
But I seem to remember noticing with my Sig Sauer P239
that the Slide was American, frame German and the magazines Italian!
I think the Sig Sauer paddle holster was middle eastern. Maybe Israeli?

[les strat]

As pleased as I am with my Kahr, I do think the area they could most definitely improve on is mag design. From the metal splitting, nose dives, people having to file away, and just plain ugly non-form-fitting base plate, they could stand some work.
That aside, I am really impressed with most everything about my CM9 but the mags.

[beatlesfan]

The Kahrs are really works of art in the looks department, beautiful lines and form. Then you have an ugly mag plate sticking out that doesn't look like it's seated properly. It kind of ruins the look. Maybe we should all start carrying them with one in the chamber and no magazine? Lol.

Sent from Tapatalk

[Barth]

The Kahrs are really works of art in the looks department, beautiful lines and form. Then you have an ugly mag plate sticking out that doesn't look like it's seated properly. It kind of ruins the look. Maybe we should all start carrying them with one in the chamber and no magazine? Lol.

Sent from Tapatalk

I must be missing something?
I just don't get it?
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo14/8f/4c/f51735d6c7ff__1315212311000.jpg

[beatlesfan]

Lol it's not so much with the extended mags, or on the mags for my T9. It's mostly for the mags with the flat steel butt plate on them. I'm posting from my phone right now, I'll try to get a pic of it up later if you're not sure what I mean.

Sent from Tapatalk

[tv_racin_fan]

Interesting.. I thought everyone liked the steel mag plates.

Anyone not liking the steel mag plates can PM me and I'll trade either the plastic extended finger grip end plates or the standard plastic Kahr end plates for steel end plates. (I only have about 15 end plates)

[beatlesfan]

I like that they're steel because it's stronger than plastic, but there's the slight gap between the plate and the bottom of the grip. It just doesn't look clean in my opinion. Luckily, I don't have that problem with the T9 mags. They've all got plastic plates.

This of course is just my opinion. I'm a bit anal about these things lol.

Sent from Tapatalk

[tv_racin_fan]

Is that what the complaint is? I understand that is on purpose so that on the off chance a mag doesn't fall there is something to grip to convince the mag to come out when needed. Of course I dunno nuffin....

I prefer the steel plates because they dont stick out of the grip as far as those plastic ones do.

[beatlesfan]

Is that what the complaint is? I understand that is on purpose so that on the off chance a mag doesn't fall there is something to grip to convince the mag to come out when needed. Of course I dunno nuffin....

I prefer the steel plates because they dont stick out of the grip as far as those plastic ones do.

Ya know, I never thought of that. That's a perfect reason for it sticking out a bit. It makes sense now, and I can lay my OCD to rest on that one lol.:)

[apdturbo]

even the extended mags with finger extension look ugly and out of place IMPO but agreed a kahr is a beautiful weapon.

[Barth]

Lol it's not so much with the extended mags, or on the mags for my T9. It's mostly for the mags with the flat steel butt plate on them.

???????
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo13/86/01/5c79ee174f97__1315225044000.jpg

[yqtszhj]

Now that's a beautiful pistol. Shiney

[Russ]

Thanks for the idea. I am going to ask my brother to chemically change the color of the mags to black. At least they will not stand out

[Barth]

Now that's a beautiful pistol. Shiney

LOL! Thanks.
I'm a big fan of Shiny.
It's the Elite 2003 with a polished stainless steel finish.
Lots of other cool upgrades as well.
I highly recommend it.

[O'Dell]

LOL! Thanks.
I'm a big fan of Shiny.
It's the Elite 2003 with a polished stainless steel finish.
Lots of other cool upgrades as well.
I highly recommend it.

I like shiney, too. Of my fourteen pistols, only two HK's, the M&P compact, and the LCP are black. SS, nickle, and alloy are easier to take care of.

[Russ]

I was told you can't chemically change stainless to black and painting it black would chip. Too bad the butt of the Kahr and the base plate of the mag were not molded. My XD mag plate fits together with the butt of the gun like a puzzle piece.

[jocko]

have no idea what the process is either but there are some firearm refinishgers out there thaqn can don anythnbg u want done with a refinish over stainless that will last until the cows come home. This over the counter stuff IMO would only be temporary finish, certainly not what these professionals can do for our guns..

[gb6491]

I was told you can't chemically change stainless to black and painting it black would chip. Too bad the butt of the Kahr and the base plate of the mag were not molded. My XD mag plate fits together with the butt of the gun like a puzzle piece.
There are several processes other than paint that will darken stainless steel. Some of these are proprietary (such as Isonite QPQ (http://coalcreekarmory.com/custom_finishing.html#Melonite)), while others are readily available. Brownells Oxynate 84 (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1103/Product/) is an example of the latter. TucsonMTB posted a process here on the forums that is within the realm of DIY: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7995
Regards,
Greg

[Russ]

Thanks Greg for the link. That really looks Sharp and matching the black poly will make the magazine blend in rather than appear like the magazine was an after thought. Russ

[jeffe007]

I know and feel ur pain!! My BRAND NEW CM9's mag developed two cracks ong it's backside after only 125 rounds of normal pressure FMJ!! Absolute crap!! Oh and why is the spring soooooooooooooooo long on the 7rd mags when the 6rd spring works PERFECTLY in lieu thereof! But I digress. Why did my Mag body crack? I've Never ever had this happen! Now I'm still waitin' on Kahr to gimme a new one. Had this been S&W, they'd have sent me a NEW mag BEFORE I had to send them the old one-if they even wanted it back!! But oh yes kahr just "had to have me send my ONLY mag in FIRST!" what's up with this business practise? I don't say this often but... I think the company needs to jerk knots in some customer no-service ******** as well as their engineers and third party manufacturers (I there are any)!

[Bawanna]

I don't know for certain but I have to believe the magazines are produced by a third party. I don't think beating up the customer service folks or even the engineers would accomplish much. I suspect they want the defective mag back so they can place it in the lap of the manufacturer and have them figure it out. It would be nice to have the defective and the replacement pass in the mail to speed things up but we can't always have everything.

Not to say there isn't a customer service person now and then that goofs. For awhile there was one that thought he'd save the company tons of money by refusing to pay return shipping. That was taken care of when the higher ups heard about it and I think they will gladly pay return shipping on repairs that are qualified.

I'm sure they are working on these mag issues as we speak, again no proof but I bet they are addressing it.

[jocko]

probably right great one, I know kahr does not make their mags, IMO the reason they probalby want their bad mags back in compared to a company like Smith is that ifit happens to Smiths magazines it is soso rare so they don't question it., In kahrs case this is far more commen that what we want or that kahr wants and they are going toaqsk for aqll magazine returned for reasons maybe of verification that we are no trying to screw them out of a freebie or possable to send back to the magazine maker to determine what the hell is going on. I wish I had a clue as to why this happening to. I tend tolean towards a possabl4e defect in that particular gun that is causing it but please do't quote me on that as it is simnply a SWAG.

[Barth]

I was told you can't chemically change stainless to black and painting it black would chip.

I don't know what you mean by chemically change but my Sig P239
has a Nitron finished black stainless slide?

Off Topic:
I just got my Sig Sauer P220/45 factory stainless 10 round extended mag.
It looks sweet!
http://www.sigsauerguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MAG-220-45-10-02.jpg

[CJB]

I spoke too soon.....

One of the three mags I just got had a "sliding" base. The button on the retaining plate would just ride out of the hole in the base.

What to do...

I got a 1/4-20 socket head cap screw. Stuck it in my vice, laid the button on the retainer in the hex opening.... got my trusty Starrett punch set.... found a nice punch that sort of fit the indentation made by the button... got my equally trusty three pound sledge hammer....and gave it a whack.

The result: The metal is pretty thin. It punched right through the retainer.

This is not bad! I've got some 1911 mags that have removable bases, and those have retainers with holes. So I filed it, just a wee little bit to smooth it out, and it works like a charm. Then I said.. ya know, this retainer is really thin, and sho'nuff it could slide over the body of the magazine, not coming off, but not right. So, a little tweakage bend right at the curved section to put a lip on things, and voila. Together, works, and is just fine. I'm tempted to do the others just because.

Pics when I get back to camera land... but thought some folks would want to know about one possible fix.

[CJB]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9090086.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9090087.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9090088.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9090089.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9090090.jpg

I could have (and will) clean up the hole a bit more, its just a rough punch-out.

The little bend at the end is ... something to be played with perhaps. Too much and it doesn't work. You just want enough to hold the retaining plate in place and not have it slide forward with the base plate. The hole... doesn't have to be a hole I guess, it just happened. I wanted to sharpen up the edges of the depression and it broke through very easily. Sometime when I get back from my roadtrip, I'll clean that up.

So... there ya go!~

[Rainman48314]

One way to solve the Kahr QC problems is to buy an HK P7. It's a heck of a carry gun and 100% reliable.

[jocko]

and bigger and heavier

[Rainman48314]

and bigger and heavier
With a proper holster, it is held tight to my body and is no more noticeable than a PM9. Definitely not a pocket gun, but oh what a sweet trigger. The accuracy is amazing and the time to get back on target puts other guns to shame.

[jocko]

they say after a 50 round shoot the gun gets extremely hot, due to the gas system. Not knockingit mind you, great gun, I can remember back 45+ years ago, those guns were pretty available in our country and NOBODY wnate d them. Ihad a chance as a dealer back then to buy some and nobody like the cocking grip do-da. I think they were ahead of their time and the quality of tha tgun as u have it certainly means if they tried to make it in our country in the same quality and super finish, a grand would not touch that gun.

[Russ]

My cm9 requires me to tighten my belt by one notch when I pocket carry. If I packed a heavier gun in my front pocket I would need suspenders.

The reason I pack a Kahr is I can't find another 9mm that is more reliable with the dimensions and weight of the Kahr.

[O'Dell]

I have to admit the generally speaking HK's are my favorite pistols, although Kahrs are my favorite carry guns. For me the most important factor in a carry gun is weight and that's where Kahrs shine. The P7 at over 27 ozs is twice as heavy as my only 9mm, a PM9, heavier than all three of my 40's, and heavier than five of my eight 45's. For me, that just doesn't cut it as a carry pistol. It even weighs more than my SIG P220, and that's a BIG pistol.

[Rainman48314]

they say after a 50 round shoot the gun gets extremely hot, due to the gas system. Not knockingit mind you, great gun, I can remember back 45+ years ago, those guns were pretty available in our country and NOBODY wnate d them. Ihad a chance as a dealer back then to buy some and nobody like the cocking grip do-da. I think they were ahead of their time and the quality of tha tgun as u have it certainly means if they tried to make it in our country in the same quality and super finish, a grand would not touch that gun.You're right about the heat after 50 rounds. Its a real issue for certain types of training and practice. For carry, its a non-issue. NJ State Police used them for years. Detroit's SWAT also used them. Refurbed by HK and hard chromed, they are about $775 today, although I have seen several at $950 locally, and even $1500 on GunBroker. Its not unheard of to get a German Police trade-in with holster wear around $550. Of course, after you chrome it, you are back to $800. I think the oldest model is closer to 35 years old.

[Rainman48314]

I have to admit the generally speaking HK's are my favorite pistols, although Kahrs are my favorite carry guns. For me the most important factor in a carry gun is weight and that's where Kahrs shine. The P7 at over 27 ozs is twice as heavy as my only 9mm, a PM9, heavier than all three of my 40's, and heavier than five of my eight 45's. For me, that just doesn't cut it as a carry pistol. It even weighs more than my SIG P220, and that's a BIG pistol.Very true that its a heavy gun. On the plus side, that helps contribute to accuracy, as it absorbs a lot of recoil. I've even started shooting +P loads. I spend a lot of time sitting and the weight just doesn't bother me. For me, the ability to put all nine rounds on target trumps the weight issue. I just am too inconsistent with a long DAO trigger. When necessary, I still carry a Sig P238 .380. Sure wish a PM9 came with a SA trigger (and safety, of course).

[Rainman48314]

My cm9 requires me to tighten my belt by one notch when I pocket carry. If I packed a heavier gun in my front pocket I would need suspenders.

The reason I pack a Kahr is I can't find another 9mm that is more reliable with the dimensions and weight of the Kahr.
My friend Sal can fix you up

http://www.suspenders.com/
:)

[Longitude Zero]

I wonder how much ecomony of manufacturing has to do with the design? As to blackening I wonder what Robar could do as they are one of the best in the business...

[O'Dell]

Very true that its a heavy gun. On the plus side, that helps contribute to accuracy, as it absorbs a lot of recoil. I've even started shooting +P loads. I spend a lot of time sitting and the weight just doesn't bother me. For me, the ability to put all nine rounds on target trumps the weight issue. I just am too inconsistent with a long DAO trigger. When necessary, I still carry a Sig P238 .380. Sure wish a PM9 came with a SA trigger (and safety, of course).

I certainly agree about the triggers - I prefer SA or DA/SA because I have been shooting 1911's for 45 years and SIG's for 30 years. Fortunately, or maybe planned, only three of my 13 pistols [not counting the LCP which is a close up and personal, no sights gun] are DAO, the M&P c 40 and the two Kahrs. The 4 1911 45's are, of course, SA, and the SIG's, HK's and S&W's are DA/SA. The HK's and S&W's can be carried 'cocked and locked' which effectively makes them SA, but unfortunately, the SIG's cannot. That why I am much more likely to carry an HK or S&W.

The exception to this is my CW40, which is my most carried OWB gun. For some reason that I cannot explain, I shoot the CW very well even in rapid fire, as well in fact, as the SA's. The light weight and thinness of the CW places it above the other more expensive pistols in my carry order.

[jocko]

ur last sentecne explains it very well IMO.. If kahrs were just like the guns your talkingabout, then no one would want one..

[Longitude Zero]

You are so right jocko. As we all know or should know Kahr's occupy a very specail niche in the firearms market. There are pretenders but they are not and never will be Kahr's.