S&W M&P 15/22 Range Report?

[Scoundrel]

Hey, I know it's not a Kahr, but do you guys want to hear about my first shooting trip with my brand new M&P 15/22?

[yqtszhj]

you bet. tell us.

[Scoundrel]

OK. Gotta write it up first. Might be a little while. My hands are still shaking from the excitement!

[yqtszhj]

Waaaaaa Hoooooooo

[beatlesfan]

I don't think anyone on here is exclusive to Kahr, so yes! Let us hear it!

Sent from Tapatalk

[Scoundrel]

*Disclaimer: This is not a professional review, and I am not an expert shooter, nor an expert in firearms. It is even possible that I will use the word "thingy" to describe part of the gun in this text. If this would offend you, stop reading now. What you are (maybe) about to read is a subjective, informal account of my first trip to the range with my shiny new rifle. In it, I will describe things that worked for me, not tell people what they should do. Thanks for reading!

Items Acquired:
* Smith and Wesson M&P 15/22 Model 811033 w/A1-style Compensator
* Two spare S&W 25-round magazines
* Barska AC10037 4x32 Plinker-22 Scope (free gift from a friend)
* NCStar scope rings to fit the weaver/picatinny rail system
* NCStar MARF rail riser (for the scope)
* UTG Ambi Foldable Foregrip
* NCStar ABUQ BiPod
* Rubber rail guard (haven't used it yet)
* UTG Covert Homeland Security Gun Case - 25"
* Note: I am well aware that NCStar and UTG stuff is considered low end. If I were outfitting an AR-15 I might buy higher end stuff, but this should be fine for a plinker.

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/MP.jpg

Ammo Acquired:
* 100 rounds .22 Long Rifle Federal Copper Plated Hollow Point 36 Grain 1260 fps
* 100 rounds .22 Long Rifle Winchester Copper Plated Hollow Point 36 Grain 1280 fps
* 50 rounds .22 Long Rifle CCI Stinger Copper Plated Hollow Point 32 Grain 1640 fps
* 100 rounds .22 Long Rifle Aquila Interceptor Copper Plated 40 Grain 1470 fps
* 100 rounds .22 Long Rifle Aguila Sniper Subsonic 60 Grain RN 950 fps

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/22Bullets.jpg
Clockwise from top left: CCI, Federal, Winchester, Aguila Interceptors, and Aguila Snipers. Note: The CCI bullets pictured here are not the ones I shot at the range today. Alas, I had only 50 of them and I shot them all. These are some other CCI model, probably mini-mag round noses.

The first thing I did when I got the rifle home was play with the accessories.
The rail riser was necessary to bring the scope up to a comfortable eye level. I had to remove the rear iron sight to clear the way for the scope. It was not necessary to remove the front sight; the scope saw right over it. But I removed it anyway.
The bipod went on next. Not a lot to say about this. It works, it's a little wobbly (it's supposed to be somewhat wobbly), and it was cheap. I like the quick disconnect.
The foregrip went on last, and I adjusted it so I can get a good grip on it whether the bipod is attached or not. I wasn't sure which would happen first: the nut would tighten enough to make it a solid grip, or the foregrip would crack. Fortunately, it was the former, and I am happy with the result.

After I was done playing with accessories, I read the manual, skimming the stuff in red (I swear, half the manual is idiot-proofing warnings in red ink), and focusing on the important stuff. It was pretty easy to tell the difference.

After reading the manual, I field stripped it, used some cotton swabs to remove the metal shavings from the chamber area (REALLY, S&W?), and lubed the very dry action. I didn't bother with looking up specific lube points, I just used a cotton swab soaked in CLP to put a very light film of the stuff everywhere, squirted a small amount into the trigger mechanism and then shook the thing upside down with a rag wrapped around it. I ran a slightly damp patch through the barrel and reassembled it. After re-assembly, I wiped down any bits of CLP that were left on the outside.

Then it was time to pack it up. I used the takedown pins to break the rifle into two pieces with the accessories still attached, and it all fit snugly into the UTG gun case. Perhaps a bit too snugly. If they had a 26" case, or if I did not have the scope attached, that would have been better, but it worked. There was room for the magazines, all of the ammo, some targets, and a few other odds and ends in the front pocket.

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/GunCasePocket.jpg
http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/MP_In_Case.jpg

I took the rifle so equipped to an indoor 25-yard range to break in and become familiar with my new toy. Sure, it's a potentially lethal firearm, and I do handle it with the appropriate respect. But yes, I do also think it's a toy. If the zombie apocalypse happens tomorrow, I'll wish I had bought an AR-15 instead. But if the zombie apocalypse does not happen, I and I spend a lot of time shooting as a hobby, then this will have been the right choice.

First, let me just say that I fired about 425 rounds during this range trip. The rifle, magazines, and ammo all performed flawlessly. I did not have one single equipment or ammo failure.

I started out with the Federal 36 grain 1260 fps rounds, because I have identified them as the rimfire ammo that is "least likely to piss me off."

I removed the scope before I started, and put the iron sights back on. I put the target at about 35 feet, inserted the magazine, and lined up my first shot. I decided not to use the bipod yet. It was difficult to figure out exactly where to put the front sight inside that big circle in the rear sight. I settled on a smaller inner circle that is actually an optical illusion created by the ring being out of focus. I also tried very hard to hold the rifle steady, but didn't do very well at that. I slowly and gently squeezed the trigger, and... ...nothing happened. Oops, forgot to release the bolt catch. I did that 4 or 5 times during today's range trip.

OK, once more, this time with the action ready for action. After a few shots that seemed all over the paper, I decided it was time to deploy the bipod. Ah, that's a little better. My groupings improved. I won't embarass myself by telling you the numbers. I dialed in the sights a bit - but in my opinion, by the time you're ready for precision and long range, you're ready to remove the iron sights and attach the scope. So that's what I did.

With the scope on, I rolled the target out to 50 feet, lined it up again and took another shot. Ouch, that was terrible. The friend who gave me the scope said he'd tried fiddling with the adjustments but they didn't seem to do anything, so I am going to blame that first shot on him. I removed the adjustment caps. Let's see, the dial says one click moves the reticle 1/4" at 100 yards. I was at about 16 yards, so I moved the dial eight clicks. Fired a couple more rounds and it got a little closer but not much. I stopped counting clicks and moved it 1/4 turn, and kept doing that until it was pretty close, then made a few finer adjustments. Did the same for windage (sideways adjustment, there was no wind in the range). A few dozen shots later, I had it pretty well dialed in. I finished out the Federal ammo trying to improve my steadiness, and verifying that the scope was dialed in within my human error factor.

When the Federal was done, I cracked open the Winchester 35 grain 1280 fps ammo. I was a little worried, because when I first ordered the Winchester, I had read only good results online of people using it in the M&P, but I later found some reviews saying it didn't work as well. It turns out I had nothing to worry about. It ran fine.
When I was down to 26 rounds of the Winchester left, I went to go speak with the range master about unloading a magazine as fast as I could. They said to go for it, as long as I can keep it on the paper. So I loaded up 25+1, lined up my shot, and went crazy on the trigger. It's possible that I could have fired just a hair faster, but I was firing pretty darn fast, and this is where the M&P becomes REALLY fun. I unloaded the magazine in a few seconds (didn't time it), and reeled in my target. Here's the amusing part: Firing rapidly with the scope produced a tighter group than when I was taking slow careful shots with the iron sights.

So, with 200 rounds through the rifle, I was feeling pretty good about how the rifle was running and getting used to how it felt to shoot it, and decided it was time for the stingers. I loaded up the CCI 32 grain 1640 fps stuff.

I was a little leery about using the CCI ammo in my shiny new rifle, because my S&W 317 ultralightweight revolver does not like the stuff. In the 317 revolver, the casing mushrooms out at the primer rim in a half circle pattern and jams the weapon. Google search says this is a common problem. I simply stopped using this high pressure stuff and settled on Federal for use in that revolver.

Anyway, back to the M&P. I rolled the target out to 75 feet and started shooting. The M&P seemed perfectly happy with the Stingers. I could feel that the rounds were smacking the gun around harder, but I guess the M&P said "I eat this stuff for breakfast!" because it churned right through them without incident. I think my groupings were better with this ammo. I started to tear sections of target out and make bigger holes. It didn't take long to go through 50 rounds of that.

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[Scoundrel]

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Then I remembered that I had brought the Aguila 40 grain 1470 fps interceptors. I have a little beef I want to vent about regarding these. These things are supposed to be "copper plated". The picture on the box shows a smooth, shiny copper-colored finish on the bullet. The actual bullets look nothing like that. They're rough, pitted, and if there is a copper sheen to them at all, I can't see it in fluorescent light or in direct sunlight. I suppose if you poured a 1/2 cup of copper paint into a gallon of paint thinner and sprayed it onto these bullets lightly, they might look like this. The Federal, Winchester, and CCI are copper plated, and you can tell. I called CheaperThanDirt.com and complained about this, but they stonewalled me. A 500-round brick of this stuff was $44.19 plus shipping! Oh well, so be it. Anyway, I fired that stuff, and it behaved about the same as the Federal and Winchester.

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Interceptors_IndoorLighting.jpg
http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Interceptors_Sunlight.jpg
For a comparison, scroll back up and look at the picture of all of the bullets together. Then look me in the eye and tell me that these are "copper plated".

That just leaves the Aguila "Sniper" Subsonic 60 Grain RN 950 fps. Before I say anything else, I should qualify a few things:
1. The M&P manual says NOT to use subsonic rounds.
2. I have read that people have used these rounds in the M&P with no issues, probably because of the extra bullet weight.
3. I am aware that the rifling in the M&P is not "fast" enough to put a proper spin on these bullets, so they don't stabilize properly, and have a tendency to keyhole. I'm told these bullets need a 1-in-9 twist (the rifling makes one full revolution in 9 inches). My M&P is 1-in-15.

This ammo has a thin coating of wax on it. Weird. I decided to give it a try anyway, for fun. I left this stuff for last, so that in case it caused any trouble, I could just stop shooting and go home without cutting my range trip short. I decided to shoot more slowly, so I would know if one got stuck in the barrel. Well, I should not have worried. They fired fine. In fact, they seemed to group better at 75 feet than anything I had fired before. Maybe that's because I was getting better with the rifle, because I was shooting slower, because the bullets were better, or maybe some combination of the above. Of course, that was a pretty short distance for a rifle. Without the 1-in-9 rifling, they would probably do badly on longer shots. At one point, I thought something had gone wrong because the trigger would not pull, but then I realized that I had simply failed to ease up my finger pressure enough release it. Duh.

...and that about wraps it up. My ammo was exhausted, and I was getting a little tired (of loading 25-round magazines), so I packed it up and headed for home.
I left the range with a big grin on my face. I had a great time!

Next up, I'm gonna have a great time cleaning this thing. I'm sure it's positively filthy inside.

[Bawanna]

Nicely done Scoundrel. You shoot up at Nor Point?

[Scoundrel]

Yes, this took place at Nor Point. I thought about going to the Everett Sportsmen Club range, but it was too hot and sunny, and their rules are too restrictive. I would have been limited to 10 rounds per magazine, and I would not have been able to do the rapid fire. Also, the target distances are fixed - no hangers.

They have a sign at the entrance that says "no attitude beyond this point" or something like that. Yeah, that's because the place is already full of overbearing attitude. And they wonder (publicly, on their website) why only two people show up for the meetings.

I might still go there at some point when I want to do some long distance shooting - but not soon, and not often, I think.

[yqtszhj]

Nice report. I've shot some of that sub-sonic waxed .22 stuff through a CZ 452 lux I have. It's suppose to give better accuracy and give tighter groups because you are not dealing with the round dropping below the sound barrier (well that's what I have read anyway) but I do just as well with CCI minimags. 22's are just way fun to shoot.

[Bawanna]

Yes, this took place at Nor Point. I thought about going to the Everett Sportsmen Club range, but it was too hot and sunny, and their rules are too restrictive. I would have been limited to 10 rounds per magazine, and I would not have been able to do the rapid fire. Also, the target distances are fixed - no hangers.

They have a sign at the entrance that says "no attitude beyond this point" or something like that. Yeah, that's because the place is already full of overbearing attitude. And they wonder (publicly, on their website) why only two people show up for the meetings.

I might still go there at some point when I want to do some long distance shooting - but not soon, and not often, I think.

Yeah, I've posted a few times about the Everett Sportsman Club. Always leave a little ticked off. I never shoot handguns there and seldom rifle but our choices are slim for long range rifle. I've been gonna go try Kenmore Gun Club again and see if its improved any in 25 years. I know they have upgraded alot building wise. I want to get back into trap shooting too and they use to have a nice shotgun range.

[Alfonse]

Great review. Your writing style is very genuine and fun.

Reading that, I suddenly wanted an M&P 15/22. The UTG case looks great too. I was thinking of something for my PC4 that could hold lots of magazines and the P94 that goes with it. For less than $40, one of those could fill the bill.

Used to live out your way. Sort of miss having an indoor range around here when it is too cold to play outside.

[Scoundrel]

Thank you!

Here is the link for the bag I got:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BR2Z8G
There are plenty of flavors depending on what gun you want to pack up in it. I saw a tip on a forum telling me that this one fits the M&P really well, and so it does.

[Scoundrel]

Took the M&P out to a gravel pit with a friend and a couple other .22 rifles yesterday. We were at about the same distance from the targets, but were shooting on an uphill slope. I'm not sure if my scope got jostled in the bag (probably) or if it was the difference in the angle of the shots, but my shots were hitting about two inches diagonally up and to the left of the crosshairs. Rather than dial it in again, I just adjusted my point of aim and that was good enough for the day.

I tested out something new yesterday. I wanted something more reactive than your standard paper targets, but not as messy as pop cans. Something with minimal cost and minimal cleanup, but something that would still give me some degree of satisfaction when I hit it.

So I went to Fred Meyer and bought a 50-pack of clothespins ($4), a 200-pack of thumbtacks ($2.29), and a bag of 250 water balloons ($1.59).

I didn't use water in the balloons this time, just air - but that was still pretty darn fun. I like how it's super-easy to affix the balloons to a piece of cardboard, or fix them to tree branches with a clothespin. I also like how they instantly vanish when you hit them. It's more satisfying than you might think. There is no question of whether you hit the thing, like with pop cans, and you don't worry about finding the new hole in the target so you can know where you hit - it's impossible and it doesn't matter, so you shrug and go on to the next balloon.

It's quite a bit of fun to pin up a row or arc of balloons, and then go back to 50 feet or so and pick them off, one at a time, increasing your speed each time to see how fast you can nail them. The 25-round magazine in the M&P is very helpful for this. It's also fun to try it with and without the bipod, which allows for a good deal of rotation so you can easily move from one target to the other without resistance, and without dislodging the feet of the bipod.

For the next trip, I think I'll load up a Coleman cooler with balloons filled with water instead of air. That ought to increase the reactiveness of the target considerably, and increase the satisfaction of hitting one.

The great thing is how much fun you can have for so little money, and how little range cleanup is required afterward.

Winchester Copper Plated .22 lr bullets - about four pennies each.
Water balloons - two for a penny.
Thumbtacks - about a penny each (re-usable).
Clothespins - about eight pennies each (re-usable).
Cardboard target platform - basically free.
Plywood target platform (for water balloons) - really cheap.

Amount of fun gained from shooting small balloons filled with air or water: Priceless.


It is good training, too. Water balloons are about three inches in diameter. They're not perfectly round. When they're filled with air, they flop around in the breeze, simulating a target that is foraging for food. If you can consistently hit a 3-inch water balloon at 50 yards, you can nail birds and squirrels too. Ever seen a flat, round bird or squirrel?

[Bawanna]

I've read of other people doing it also so I can't claim I invented the idea but way back you used to be able to buy little flat suckers with kind of a rope handle. They came in rolls and you just tore one off.

The little rope/string handle was perfect for hanging them on a nail. I'd just take a 2x4 or whatever I could find and hang those suckers on the nails and then shoot em. Probably not as reactive and visual as balloons but it was fun and I'm sure the little forest animals loved the remains of the suckers left behind.

Don't see them anymore but I rarely go shopping so maybe they are still out there. Hard to find and have to drive further and further to shoot outside. I like the convenience of indoor target hangers on the trollies but I like being out in a pit by myself far better.

Course having a restroom, climate control and a nice hard floor is a bonus too specially for wheeled folks.

[Scoundrel]

...little flat suckers with kind of a rope handle....
...The little rope/string handle was perfect for hanging them on a nail.

That's an awesome idea. I will have to do some internet searching and see if I can find those. Balloons just vanish instantly. Water-filled balloons will disappear in a spray of water, which will be cool. Flying chunks of lollipop sounds like it would be very satisfying as well.


Course having a restroom, climate control and a nice hard floor is a bonus too specially for wheeled folks.

Yeah, I imagine that would make it a little more difficult to go shooting in a gravel pit.

I haven't seen anyone in an indoor range wearing a chair. How does that work with the hangers and hanger controls being so high, and the booths having those benches that would be about eye level to someone in a chair?

[MW surveyor]

"I haven't seen anyone in an indoor range wearing a chair. How does that work with the hangers and hanger controls being so high, and the booths having those benches that would be about eye level to someone in a chair?"

Not indoors but the range I use has recently undergone a major upgrade! Covered instead of baking in the sun (will be adding ceiling fans later), concrete so that you're not standing in dirt (and can roll right up without getting bogged down), real benches with screen dividers that are loose and funnel your empties into a catchment that you can empty when finished and about 4 stations for use by people in wheelchairs. (Bench flips up and out of the way) How cool is that!

[Bawanna]

That's an awesome idea. I will have to do some internet searching and see if I can find those. Balloons just vanish instantly. Water-filled balloons will disappear in a spray of water, which will be cool. Flying chunks of lollipop sounds like it would be very satisfying as well.



Yeah, I imagine that would make it a little more difficult to go shooting in a gravel pit.

I haven't seen anyone in an indoor range wearing a chair. How does that work with the hangers and hanger controls being so high, and the booths having those benches that would be about eye level to someone in a chair?

I have to have someone hang the targets, just can't reach high enough. I always ask to make sure but they always let me fold the benches down when I shoot. One of my first visits with my PM45 I was having a few issues and I determined it was because I was trying to leave the bench up and holding it unnaturally high for me. Never a problem with the bench down.

I usually have my son with me so he hangs targets. I've often thought of bringing a little fold up table or small stool to put stuff on at the shooting station.

Nor Point and most ranges don't like more than 1 or 2 guns on the station, I usually end up with too many. Forget to put em back in the bag . I rotate quite a bit and always bring too many since I don't get up often enough.

So far they have been really easy to get along with and not wanted to butt heads with me unlike Everett out on Homeacres. I need to wear a helmet there, butting heads is what we do. Imagine being told you can't wear a belt gun on the range. Only the range officer. I do and always have. I carry it every where else, I'm sure gonna carry it there too. Just don't let the pony tailed biker range master see it.

[Alfonse]

Being a kid myself, the target discussion is big fun. It sounds like a good way to engage my kids further. I sometimes use clays, but they don't staple up easily. Balloons would be fun, and that would probably get the kids filling magazines while I set targets.

Our range is a bit particular right now, since a fire was started the hours are cut and there is less tolerance of different targets. Used to be you could go there on a week day and have it to yourself, or with maybe one other member around.

Thanks for the link on the UTG cases. I need a 42 inch for the PC4, but I see they have a Covert Case that looks superb.

[Bawanna]

It's very important to keep shooting fun and entertaining for kids (like myself). Even my son a wee 26 gets bored just making holes in paper.

Seeing something blow up, balloons, or clays or those metal flippers gives them instant reaction to a hit which is rewarding for them (and me).

My kids years ago loved halloween just so we could go blow up pumkins afterwards. Great for the economy (if not my bank account) as they always wanted to buy 15 or 20. Course they did their neighborhood good deed and collected all the neighbors old pumpkins too. Model citizens we are.

[Scoundrel]

I was not aware that Norpoint didn't like having too many guns on the bench. I don't recall seeing it in their rules list, and I have had 4 on the bench before. Usually one or two of them is in my range bag on the bench though. Maybe that's why I have not been talked to about that. They have talked to me about not drawing from my holster to shoot without having the master membership, but they were quick, quiet, and polite about that, and didn't give me any more trouble after I said "OK" and stopped doing it.


I have seen the rules at Everett Sportsmen Club (both Word doc on website and posted rules at the range itself) but don't remember seeing one about not wearing one on my hip. That's a bunch of crap, IMHO. That's anti-gun sentiment there, and no better than government restrictions. I can empathize a little bit. Obviously, these guys have had some troublemakers in the past. You can read between the lines of their rules list and call out the kind of idiot moves they've had to deal with. But modelling their entire range on what you should not be doing, and copping a big attitude about it, and being overbearing is not cool. I visited that range just to check out the attitude in person, having read the website, without shooting. I was there for 3 minutes and left irritated because both the rules list and my short discussion with the range master both implied that until they know better, I'm a snotty punk who's going to cause trouble. I think that I just might go there later to shoot, once, and then write a long letter about what I think they're doing wrong, just to line up all of the thoughts on one page, send it to them, and forget about ever going there again. I would do it without going there to shoot, but I think my letter would carry an ounce more weight if I had actually been a paying customer, once, and been driven off by the attitude.


Funny you should mention blowing up pumpkins. You know those "cannon" fireworks you can buy at the Indian reservations that launch themselves into the air via the 1.5-inch diameter 1-foot high cardboard tubes, and then do various things depending which ones you get (red sparks, crackly things, or just plain LOUD BOOM)?

Well, those work great for destroying pumpkins. They're "crowd-pleasers". If you put one inside a pumpkin instead of inside a launching tube, the first charge just makes a puff of smoke and a small noise instead of propelling the firework into the sky. A second later, the main charge goes off, and bits of pumpkin go flying EVERYWHERE. If you have people watching that are new to the event, it's especially fun because when the first charge goes off, they get all disappointed for a second and start to make noises like "Awww" or "That's it?" and then BOOM! and they are giggling uncontrollably.

My neighbor is not especially pleased when pumpkin bits fall on the roof of his house, and onto his shiny muscle cars, so I have to put up a wheelbarrow next to the pumpkin to deflect the chunks. This year, I'm hoping my friend whips up some tannerite.


Regarding targets, I was unable to find those lollipops with the little ropes in them online. What is worse is that none of the friends I asked today even knows what I am talking about. I can't be imagining this because Bawanna knows about them too. Ah, well. The balloons will have to do for now.

[Bawanna]

Balloons work great, you just don't have to pack a compressor or wear out your lungs blowing up the suckers.

They used to be in all the drug and dime stores we called em. Usually on one of them little racks that spins around. You just peeled off how ever many you wanted or had money for and tore it off. If the store manager peeled em off he usually gave you 5 or 6 extras if your were a regular, which most people were.

They might have quit making em for all I know. I haven't seen em in years.

I swear on Jocko's Harley that they used to exist. I didn't make it up. I'll ask my wife, she knows everything.

[gb6491]

Nicely report Scoundrel: the time/effort involved is appreciated and thanks for sharing the new gun experience with us :)
Regards,
Greg

[Scoundrel]

Nicely report Scoundrel: the time/effort involved is appreciated and thanks for sharing the new gun experience with us :)
Regards,
Greg

You're welcome. If anyone would know how much time/effort it takes to write up a report like that with pictures and everything, it's you. I appreciated your instrux on the follower mods.

[Scoundrel]

Update: I have now taken this beastie on three shooting trips and it puts a grin on my face every time I shoot it. The most recent range trip was outdoors. We shot at some paper targets to get our scopes dialed in, and then we shot some water balloons pinned to a board, and some hard-boiled eggs sitting on the ground.

Shooting paper targets is all well and good for working on your consistency, but shooting reactive targets is MUCH more fun!

I have about 1500 rounds through this rifle now. I have only witnessed one failure to feed, and one misfire. Both happened when my dad was firing. He had also loaded the magazines.

With the misfire, I ejected the bullet and found that the firing pin had hit it, but had only left the slightest indentation on the casing - not enough to set off the primer. I loaded it again and it fired.

With the failure to feed, the bolt did not come all of the way forward. I ejected the bullet and found it to have a gouge on the nose, and it was not in the casing straight anymore. I suspect this one was a problem with how the magazine was loaded. I carefully straightened the bullet and loaded it into a single shot Rossi youth rifle we had with us, and fired it from there.

At 125 yards, we had some trouble hitting some aluminum cans, and missed a lot more than we hit - but not by much. I'd say that a raccoon crouching behind those cans would have been in pretty bad shape.

...and the S&W M&P is a hell of a lot of fun, and by far the best $500 I have spent on guns thus far, in terms of fun and cool factor.

I was on the edge between buying the M&P vs. the Ruger 10-22. I was considering the Ruger because it was half the price, and there is so much accessory availability for it.

However, I've always been a little reluctant to customize my stuff that much. I buy an ATV, and I get some aftermarket wheels and tires for it, maybe some grip warmers and skid plates - but I don't get a hopped up ignition module, bore out the cylinders, snorkel it, etc.

So I got the M&P 15/22, bought a foregrip, bipod, scope, and some rail covers, and I am very happy with the result.

This weekend there was a guy who is in the ATV club and went on the trip as well. When he saw us messing with the M&P, he brought over his Ruger SR22, which looked similar to the M&P 15/22. It has a lower sticker price, and I wondered briefly if I should have bought one of those (to save the money and to have that uber-reliable Ruger action), but as I inspected it I realized that it is heavier than the M&P, and does not break down easily (AR-15-style takedown pins), so would require a long rifle case. I really like the light weight and the short "covert" case.

So a couple weeks and 1500 rounds later, I am still very happy with my purchase. It's well worth the extra money. It's funny, People complain about the sticker price of guns, but the initial purchase ends up being a small fraction of the total money spent on this sport. The ammo quickly outstrips the initial purchase price.

[Scoundrel]

Nor Point and most ranges don't like more than 1 or 2 guns on the station, I usually end up with too many. Forget to put em back in the bag . I rotate quite a bit and always bring too many since I don't get up often enough.

So far they have been really easy to get along with and not wanted to butt heads with me


I was not aware that Norpoint didn't like having too many guns on the bench. I don't recall seeing it in their rules list, and I have had 4 on the bench before. Usually one or two of them is in my range bag on the bench though.

Just a follow-up on this, not meaning to be argumentative or anything. I was at NorPoint today and scanned the rules again. Saw nothing about number of guns on the station at a time. The closest thing was that they don't want any guns outside the lane.

So I asked the range master (same guy has been there almost every time I have gone there). He seemed a bit perplexed, and told me that there is no rule like that. As far as he is concerned, you can have as many guns as you want on the station as long as you can keep them under control.

<shrug>

[Scoundrel]

This article compares the following two scopes, used on a Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22, and a Rossi Combo .22/410 Youth Rifle.

BARSKA 3-9x42 IR Contour Dual Color Reticle 30/30 IR Riflescope
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001JJCHR0

NCStar 3-9X42 Compact-Red and Green Illuminated P4 Sniper/Green Lens/Quick Release
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NID370

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Barska-vs-NCStar.jpg

As far as looks go, if I attach the Barska scope directly to the M&P, it looks OK. It's larger and slightly less streamlined than the NCStar, but it still looks cool. Barska scopes are like the Hyundai of rifle scopes. It looks slightly less cool, and people know you paid less money for it, but the thing does the job well and you won't be heartbroken if it gets scratched.

If I put a riser on the rail, then it starts looking really weird. Maybe chopping the ends of the riser would help, but I'd have to cut/grind/paint it so it didn't look like ass, and it might still look funny. The good news is that I don't really need it to be on a riser. It might be more comfortable on a riser, but then it would also be further from the bore line.

Disregarding looks, I am much happier with the Barska's performance. The eye relief is really a huge difference. I have to get my eyeball pretty dang close to the NCStar, and I still have problems getting my eye "in the zone" and centered so I'm not looking at the side of the scope's innards, or having some of the visibility cut off by the edge of the eyepiece. By contrast, the "zone" for the Barska seems larger, and it can be several inches from my eye, giving me more situational awareness through peripheral vision. I try to keep both eyes open unless I am really concentrating on a difficult target, and the scope being further from my face means I can see more about what's going on around me with the Barska than with the NCStar.

Another factor in this is the diameter of the eyepiece lens. It is larger on the Barska, which means I don't have to have my eyeball lined up just right to see into it. Since the eye relief allows me to have it further from my face, the larger diameter eyepiece does not block my peripheral vision any more than the NCStar's smaller eyepiece which must be closer to my face for proper eye relief.

This model of the Barska also has the red/green lighted reticle, and unlike the NCStar, flipping the dial through the settings actually produces a distinguishable illumination difference. With the NCStar, even though it supposedly had different settings, it seem to me as if they were "High", "Slightly less high", and "Barely see it". The levels with the Barska are more graded.

The only thing I like less about the Barska is that it does not have a quick-release lever. Maybe there is another model that has this, I did not research it that carefully. The one I got has to be screwed on. That's OK, though. The whole M&P has to be assembled after being transported, and adding the scope is not difficult. I think that with the screws, I actually get a better feel for whether the guide bolts are in the weaver rail slots when settling it in, and I think it's easier to keep it from moving when tightening the screws vs. the lever. I doubt that either method preserves the scope's previously dialed in status.

I was going to compare these scopes, then send back the one I don't want. But then I tried out the NCStar on the Rossi combo .22, and it suits that rifle well. First, it's more compact, like the rifle, so the setup doesn't look like a sheep walking on its hind legs. Also, the quick release suits the whole Rossi quick-assembly methodology well. The eye relief is still a problem, but there is much less choice on where to put your eye with the Rossi since it does not have a collapsible stock, so it's not as big a deal. More importantly, when the scope is in a good spot, it does not interfere with your fingers working the hammer and the barrel break lever. On the M&P, the NCStar got in the way of pulling the bolt back.


I do have a rant about today's scope fitting adventure. I believe the problem is with the weaver rail I bought for the Rossi. The rail has slots in it, used for deciding where to position your accessories. They are at specific intervals. Well, the slots in the Rossi rail are about 1/8" off from the slots on every single other rail accessory I have (and I have a bunch of them). When I first encountered this, I thought that the scope rings simply were not in the right spot on the new Barska scope. So I moved one of them. Then, when trying out the Barska on the M&P, I had to move it back. That's when I started comparing them all. Most of my rail accessories have two pins that go into those slots, and most of those accessories also have one of those two pins ground flat so that it does not actually engage the slot. Apparently someone has had this problem before.

They're called STANDARDS, guys, and they are created for a REASON. Figure it out.


Update: I took both rifles and scope to the range today, and have some additional details to discuss.

The NCStar scope, despite having the same objective size, didn't do as well in the light conditions at the range. The white paper target was yellow and fuzzy under 9x magnification. At 3x, it was bright and clear, but small. At 6x, it was pretty good, and that's what I worked with.

After dialing in the scope and getting very good accuracy with the Rossi youth .22 rifle, I disconnected the scope with the quick release, and reattached it. The scope was still spot on target.

The Barska scope, mounted on the M&P, was brighter and clearer at 9x magnification, but still a little fuzzy and not as bright as I liked. I dialed it back to 7x, and that worked pretty well. The target was both larger and clearer than with the NCStar scope at 6x.

After dialing in the scope and getting pretty good accuracy with the M&P 15/22, I disconnected the scope using the screws, and reattached it. To my dismay, it was about 2" off on both the X and Y axes. That being said, I do remember now that when I attached it the first time, I jiggled it around in the slot until it was in the middle between both bump stops, and tightened it there. The second time, I think I pushed it up against the front stop and tightened it there. That probably made the difference, but I did not mess with it further today.

I also noted that although the scope was close in line with the bore since it did not having a riser, it was more difficult for me to keep my eye in a good position while shooting it. A lot of times the target was fuzzy, and I had to shift my eye into a position that was uncomfortable to my neck in order to get a good sight picture. Therefore, I think I wasted a lot of energy on this, and it detracted from my shooting accuracy.

My next range trip will include a riser with a quick release under the Barska, with any machining modifications that I need to do in order to keep it from looking silly. I suspect that the comfort of using a riser will more than offset the distance of the scope from the bore line, and the quick release will not do a bad job of keeping the scope dialed in, if I remove it and put it back in the same position. I will "standardize" on jiggling it until it is in the middle of the slot before tightening it up.

[tv_racin_fan]

I believe you are supposed to tighten the ring down with it pressed to the front of the rail slot. I believe the idea is the scope does not get a sudden jolt from the ring sliding until it impacts the slot upon recoil. Some air rifle scopes are built to handle this.

Some lower quality quick detachable rings wont return to zero very well.

I had an issue with a scope I mounted on a rifle being in the way of the bolt when removing the bolt for cleaning. Got taller rings and a cheek piece for the stock. I try to install the scope so that when I mount the rifle with my eyes closed then open them the scope is in the correct spot. Not having the scope in the right spot and getting the same cheek weld will wreck havoc on accuracy especially when combined with paralax.

As for the standards comment. Ya gotta understand that scopes with built in rings are generaly arranged to fit on both Weaver and Picatinny rails or one or the other. Kinda hard to fit both standards when they dont match.

My red dot has the cross bolts offset so that only one engages the slot because it has the mount integral with the scope. The rings on the 3x9 don't because they are separate from the scope.

I understand that saltine crakers or neco wafers make good targets. My son and I shot a couple of tomatoes... we expected the Aquila SubSonic Snipers to really tear em up... instead we got nice neat holes... the HP rounds made a nice PLOP and salsa.

I have enjoyed your report, quite well done in my book.

Bawanna is correct on those suckers, they are called safety pops.

http://www.candyfavorites.com/safety-pops-bulk?gclid=COe8-oq_yqsCFRJW7Aodv3y_4w

[Scoundrel]

Regarding scope mounting: OK, I suppose I was going to standardize on either pressing it up against the front, or settling in the middle. I suppose it doesn't matter which as long as I do it consistently. I had done it one way, and the setting did not hold for the other way. Next time I will probably spend some time trying it both ways, mounting and removing, and see which way holds it better.

The rifle is a .22, not much recoil, so if I tighten it down good, it probably won't slip. But I'll try it both ways anyway.

That's a good point. The rail for the Rossi is Weaver, and the rail on the M&P is Picatinny. I thought they were supposed to be identical except for maybe a couple thousands of an inch of width, but maybe the slot spacing is also part of that difference, which is why so many weaver/picatinny accessories have one of the bolts flattened.


Targets: I have heard the saltine crackers one. I also have some generic-brand Ritz knock-offs that have been sitting on my shelf for more than a year now. Those will be great as well.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for the link to the Safety Pops. I just ordered a 5-lb box and sent the link to my friends to prove I was not making it up. Maybe I'll give some away at Halloween to propagate the memory. Those little loops should be perfect for hanging them on tree branches.


Thanks for your feedback!



Note to the forum moderators: Why is the word "crackers" OK, but the same word in singular form (without the s) blocked? I just did a quick Google search, and found that it is a pejorative slang word used to describe white people. I guess that's why it's blocked. Would someone really be offended by that?

[Scoundrel]

My son and I shot a couple of tomatoes... we expected the Aquila SubSonic Snipers to really tear em up... instead we got nice neat holes... the HP rounds made a nice PLOP and salsa.

I guess it makes sense that the heavier, non-expanding bullet would bust a clean hole through the skin of the tomato, and the expanding bullet would do more damage.

I bought 500 rounds of the Aquila Sniper 60gr subsonics, but when I am finished shooting them, I don't think I will buy any more of them. For one thing, the smell of the smoke is pretty hard core. I read about that and figured people were being wimps. The smell is not that bad and reminds me of the days when I drove gas-powered R/C cars. The exhaust from those things is a similar smell to me (funny how everyone describes that smell differently). But after a while, it gets to me. The smell "sticks" in my nose all day and gives me a scratchy throat and sinus area.

But, more importantly, I do not have a 1:9 twist barrel, and cannot currently find one for any rifle I already own. I'm not going to go out and get a new rifle plus an aftermarket barrel to put the proper spin on that bullet. As a result, some of the rounds are spot on, and others go wild and keyhole the target, even at 25 yards.

I find that CCI's 40gr sub-sonic LHP 1050fps rounds do pretty well, and are reasonably priced as well.

One other thing to consider is that the 60gr 900fps bullets drop more than the 40gr 1050fps bullets, so if I want to change up in the middle of a shooting session, it's a bigger adjustment on the scope.

[tv_racin_fan]

It makes sense that the hollow points would do far more damage but we hadn't considered it that way. Honestly I wasn't thinkin the totmatoe would be enough to open up a hollow point.

Yeah I got the 60grainers not thinking about the keyhole issue. Doubtful I could find a barrel for either of my 22's.

I'd like to buy some of every different subsonic 22 round available and try em out for accuracy. But they cost more than the Federals from Wal Mart and the accuracy seems about the same out to 50 feet... I really need to hit the outdoor range and do some accuracy testing.

[Bawanna]

Safety Pops. I guess my integrity is intact. I knew they existed at one time.

Scoundrel, it might have been uncased guns on the table behind the station that they were concerned with. They have told me more than once to put them in a range bag or their soft cases. Never did say anything about how many at the station itself. Which usually isn't many for me since I fold down the platform usually.

[Scoundrel]

Safety Pops. I guess my integrity is intact. I knew they existed at one time.

Scoundrel, it might have been uncased guns on the table behind the station that they were concerned with. They have told me more than once to put them in a range bag or their soft cases. Never did say anything about how many at the station itself. Which usually isn't many for me since I fold down the platform usually.

Yep. They didn't want them uncased on the station behind you.

So I went to the gun show. I almost bought a 50-round .22lr drum that is supposed to fit all AR-style rifles, but I found an M&P 15/22 at the other end of the show, and asked the guy selling the drum to walk over there with me. They cut the zip-tie to get it out of the way, and the 50rd drum did not fit. Bummer. I know I can buy them online, but I wanted to get my hands on one first to check out its manufacturing quality. Not today, it seems.

Didn't see anything else I couldn't live without, but I picked up some Winchester 147gr RA9T. It's about time I tried some actual self-defense ammo in my CM9 and started carrying that. I guess that means I gotta go to the range again! That's too bad...

[Bawanna]

I was aching to bring home a High Standard Model B, 1952 vintage that was perfect. Looked like it never was out of the box, not a scratch anywhere.
Two mags, it was nice. Couldn't justify the 650 price on my priority list.

Sure is nice in that new building though. Better light, more room, cleaner, level floor. Actually there were quite a few things I wanted to bring home but that's usually the case.

Hi, my name is Bawanna and I'm a gun addict.

I did hold one of them new tupperware Judges with the short barrel. The price was really good and it felt nice, almost to a weight and size a guy could carry the thing but TD2K told me her hubby (real life hubby with benefits) traded his off without even shooting it so I was a little skeered to plunk down the gold.
Have to research more on that one. I like old stuff, I want a Schofield.

[tv_racin_fan]

Bawanna I found a holster you might want to look at and have someone make something similar for you.

Andrews Custom Leather Carjacker Crossdraw.

http://www.andrewsleather.com/traditional.htm

I want a Monarch with knife sheath and/or the backup option.

I drool over the fire power rig with a G MAN weaponry shorty shotgun.

[Bawanna]

That's some nice looking stuff for sure. That shoulder rig with knife sheath is way cool.

For some reason shoulder rigs mess with my neck, wear em an hour or two and it's like I'm in a neck brace.

[Scoundrel]

Woot!

Time to go shootin' again!

http://bruteforcetech.com/misc/M&P_Stuff.jpg

[Bawanna]

Darn it's like my 92 Winchester, load it on Sunday and shoot all week long.

I'd say your set for a spell. Hope that 22 barrel don't melt down and look like Elmer Fudd rabbit hunting.

Be Vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting Wabbits.

[MikeyKahr]

Nice setup Scoundrel, if you need any help emptying that can just let me know. Green with envy here id love to get one.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Scoundrel]

Bawanna - Pretty sure I woulda melted it by now if it was gonna! What's Opera, Doc?

MikeyKahr - Are you local?

Somebody STOP me! I went to Fred Meyer top off my .22lr ammo box (you can see it's not quite full, there), and on impulse, I picked up a Ruger MK III 22/45 stainless. I did call the local gun shop for a price comparison first to make sure I wasn't being raked over the coals. I might have been able to find it cheaper if I had called or gone 'round to every gun shop in the area, or searched the internet extensively and had it sent to an FFL. But my time is worth money too, and by the time I found it on the internet, had it shipped, paid use tax and the FFL fee, I probably wouldn't have done much better than $369 + tax. And, I got it NOW. RIGHT NOW. The transaction took 15 minutes.

Basically, the deal is that I have gotten familiar enough with my 9mm pistols that I don't need a lot more practice with those (just a box every month or so to keep me in form), but I still want to go shooting. A lot.

The M&P is great for that, but I want to shoot both pistols and rifles. Also, .22lr ammo is dirt cheap. And my wife will be leaving her job in a month, and I want to continue to shoot, so the ammo and targets have got to be cheap.

The solution: A Ruger MKIII target pistol!

My friend say that .22 pistols fall into three categories:
1. Revolvers.
2. Small, nice-looking pistols.
3. Pistols that look as if someone scavenged some parts from a Harley Davidson assembly line and hammered them together into a gun.

He says that #1 and #3 are good, and that #2 are notoriously prone to failures, and are basically junk.

I agree with the Harley factory assessment - but I don't need my .22 pistol to be easily concealed or to even look really stylish. I do need it to work reliably, and I don't think I can go wrong with a Ruger.

http://bruteforcetech.com/misc/RugerMKIII.jpg

[Bawanna]

Sweet and the key word here is you have it NOW! No waiting, no wondering, no patience meds required.

I like em. Don't own one but played with a couple.

[Scoundrel]

http://bruteforcetech.com/misc/M&P_Stuff.jpg

I bought two 50-round drums for the S&W M&P 15/22 from Black Dog Machine LLC, and both of them have a feed issue.

The problem is that the rounds are getting stuck in the neck. This causes problems feeding the rounds into the magazine – specifically that when you compress the spring, the rounds do not drop into the grooves, so you can easily skip “slots” and the magazine will not be fully loaded. There is another, related issue wherein the spring cannot overcome the friction to push the rounds up properly, and the magazine will not feed the next round.

Further investigation reveals that it only happens with some brands/types of rounds.
Unfortunately, they’re rounds that a lot of end users will probably be buying.
I have lined up, from left to right:
Federal load no. 775 (not waxed), Federal load no. 750 (waxed), Federal load no. 745 “Champion” (waxed), Aguila Interceptor 40 grain, Aguila Sniper 60 grain (waxed), Winchester 22LR333HP (not waxed), CCI Sub-Sonic 40 grain (waxed), and CCI Blazer round nose 40 grain (waxed).

http://teamfrogdrelotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/22-Lineup.jpg

I actually did three of these line-ups to offset any variances in the ammunition, and the results were the same so I only took a photo of one of them.

I got out my digital caliper to measure these:
Federal load no. 750: 24.76 mm
Federal load no. 775: 24.92 mm
Federal load no. 745 “Champion”: 25.18 mm
Aguila Interceptor 40 grain: 24.59 mm
Aguila Sniper 60 grain: 24.54 mm
Winchester 22LR333HP: 24.51 mm
CCI Sub-Sonic 40 grain: 24.90 mm
CCI Blazer round nose 40 grain: 25.11 mm

The ones that get stuck are:
Federal Champion load no. 745 – (gets stuck the most, and is hardest to dislodge)
Federal Champion load no. 775 – (gets stuck less often, and not badly)
CCI Sub-Sonic 40 grain – (gets stuck less often, and not badly)
CCI Blazer round nose 40 grain (mostly sticks when loading the drum, feeds OK most of the time)

Some of these rounds are waxed, some are not. However, the problem seems to have less to do with the wax, and more to do with the overall length.

There is a definite correlation between length and how much they get stuck.
When I feed the longest ones into the drum, they touch the neck front and back. There’s NO extra clearance there. So it makes sense that as more rounds are loaded in, touching them, and as they change angles while they travel through the drum, they’re going to get stuck.

The bottom line is that I’d really like to not have to worry about very subtle differences between ammo brands and styles, and be able to load them all up into these 50-round drums (and fire them back out) with no loading issues and no feeding issues.

I considered sanding down the inside of the drum’s neck, but figured I should talk to the manufacturer first. I sent them all of the information I have collected. Their response was that sometimes, during manufacturing, the necks shrink a little bit. They’re sending me a couple of replacements, so we’ll see how that goes.

The good news is that even if the replacement drum necks don’t completely solve the problem, I will then have two sets – so I can feel free to modify one set without concern of ending up with completely non-functional drums.

This is good customer service from Black Dog Machine LLC, in my opinion. They listened to my issue, suggested a possible reason for the problem, are sending me some replacement parts to potentially solve the problem, and enabling me to try and work out the problem on my own if the replacements don’t help. What more could I reasonably ask?

[Bawanna]

A couple of hot chicks and a good bottle of whiskey would be good.

[Scoundrel]

I think you glossed over the word "reasonably". :)

[Bawanna]

My bad! I'm sorely lacking in reasonable at work lately. Simple mistake, could happen to anyone.

[Scoundrel]

Bawanna is correct on those suckers, they are called safety pops.

http://www.candyfavorites.com/safety-pops-bulk?gclid=COe8-oq_yqsCFRJW7Aodv3y_4w

I took those Safety Pops shooting today. As expected, they were easy to hang on tree branches. When hit, they exploded in a cloud of fragments and candy dust.

Often, hitting one would knock nearby pops off of the tree, so it is necessary to spread them out.

The air was soon full of lollipop smell, even 50 feet away!

They made excellent and satisfying .22 targets. Too hard to hit with the 9mm pistols from any distance, too expensive to miss a lot with 9mm rounds.

But with the .22 rifle and scope, it was all good.

[tv_racin_fan]

i took those safety pops shooting today. As expected, they were easy to hang on tree branches. When hit, they exploded in a cloud of fragments and candy dust.

Often, hitting one would knock nearby pops off of the tree, so it is necessary to spread them out.

The air was soon full of lollipop smell, even 50 feet away!

They made excellent and satisfying .22 targets. Too hard to hit with the 9mm pistols from any distance, too expensive to miss a lot with 9mm rounds.

But with the .22 rifle and scope, it was all good.

awesome!