Barrel Pitting/Flaking on new PM9??

[kahr47]

Hello Everyone,

Happy PM9 owner here (thanks to Jocko, Bawanna & Hickock45) :D Spent a few weeks monitoring this group (best one I've every watched. Polite, friendly and VERY helpful) before making my purchase.

I decided on the PM9 as I had just started my CHL process here in Texas and wanted a reliable pocket pistol with a bit of punch to carry with me on vacation trips, etc. The CM9 was just coming out with a waiting period but I've always been a little short on patience when my minds made up so I forked over the money for the PM. Besides I got that fantastic extra 7 round mag in the bargain! :( (Did you notice that some of the FAQs on Kahr webpage refer to it as a clip?)

To the point. I clean my pistols after every range trip and this time noticed some discoloration (plating flake...if plated, or corrosion of some type??). It showed up after cleaning and using a bore light. Had never noticed it before. I guess I've got around 400-500 rounds thru it by now with hardly any hic-ups other than probably caused by my technique.

I've tried searching posts to this group looking for similar situations but no luck so far. Decided I would just jump in with my question and attach a couple of pictures to see if anyone has seen this condition.

Would appreciate ideas of the cause from the experts among you. BTW I don't use anything caustic in my cleaning process. Originally used Hoppes but lately using M-PRO-7 which works great in all my guns.

The sticky on preparation was fantastic as well as the break cleaner recommendation (thanks Jocko)

Thanks to all for any suggestions.

[Bawanna]

As I'm one of the low down varmints partly responsible for your purchase although I'll blame most of it on Jocko and Hickok45, both true heroes I'll enter the fray.

First I like M Pro 7 alot or Hoppes Elite which is exactly the same stuff, mixed in the same vat so either is good.

A long long time ago we encountered a few barrels, actually quite a few that apparently got a bad nickel plating job. They flaked and discolored. Usually they didn't effect accuracy or performance but many like myself don't like to see that flaking and discoloration.

So a polite email or phone call to Kahr might be in order. We haven't see this in a long time so I thought they had a handle on things and I might be totally off the mark too. If it bothers you it might be worth letting kahr take a look at it. I suspect you could send just the barrel but let them tell you that. They may want the top end or the whole gun. Their call to make.

They will make it right, I can assure you of that. And it may be fine as is.
Let us know what you find out.

[kahr47]

Hello Bawanna,

Took your advise last night and sent email with pictures to Kahr. Had a response bright and early this morning from Jay. He advised to send barrel back for replacement and will send prepaid FedEx label to take care of shipping costs.

Will do and I remain a happy Kahr owner.

Thanks Again,

[jocko]

kahr will replace the barrel, more than likely. If it is flking for sure they will, if it is just showing discoloring, then that is debateable. You willbe please, with their service..

[Ressom]

Yeah, that barrel does not look good. I can see the flaking in the chamber there.

I read somewhere that you shouldn't use Hoppes No.9 solvant with nickel plating. I was seing some discoloring on the outside of my CM9 barrel, so I stopped using Hoppes and switched to Ballistol. I took some Flitz to it and pollished it up a little and now it looks good. I didn't have any flaking though or I would have been calling Kahr too.

[jocko]

not really true, kahr says it is ok to actually a nickerl plated barrel is alot more corrosion resistant than standard steel barrel. clean with hoppes #9, they recommend not letting it sit in the barrel for a prolonged time. I have used it on my G19 and all my kahr barrels. If the nickel finish is done right, u will be OK with Hoppe's.

Our military Beretta 9's allhave nickel plated barrels along with our military M4's. must be a good reason for that...

[PattayaPistol]

My barrel looked much the same in the same place after about 400 rounds. :eek:
I was not in the position to send it back to Kahr as it is not legal to re-import a barrel into Thailand. I had a good think about it and decided that it really should not be flaking (hopefully) so bought some crud buster and gave the area a good but gentle scrubbing with the brass bore brush soaked in the crud buster - just the area of the flaking. It actually took about half an hour a day for about 2 days of gently working the brush, for the area to clean up, although there is still a small amount of discoloring. I oiled it well, headed out to work and will check it out in a couple of weeks when I get home.

I will post any negative results when I get back home, but as I say, mine looked very similar to your photos, in the exact same area, and did appear to clean up with gentle but persistent working of the brass brush.

Good luck with yours and please post the results of the visit to Kahr.

Cheers
PP

[gb6491]

...Our military Beretta 9's allhave nickel plated barrels along with our military M4's. must be a good reason for that...
Sorry boss, but they have hard chromed bores not nickle plated.
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I think alot of people get the terminology mixed up. I often mix nickel and chrome meaning the same which it really isn't.

Alot if not most AR's have chrome lined barrels also. I'm sure not a metalurgist. Isn't nickel part of the plating process?

[gb6491]

Isn't nickel part of the plating process?
Decorative chrome plating, is quite often (usually?) applied over nickle or nickle/copper plate/layers. Hard chrome is applied directly to the steel.
Regards,
Greg

[Bob G]

Clip or mag? :) Kahr will make it right..

[gb6491]

Clip or mag? ...
Yes, two different entities, but the term for one is quite often incorrectly used to identify the other.
Regards,
Greg

[kahr47]

Hello Again Everyone,

As noted below I had trouble with pitting or flaking on a new PM9 barrel.
Sent it back to factory last month as per suggestions and received a replacement today.

No notes/PS were in the package just a brand new shiny barrel. The feed ramp also looks like it has special polish to it. I don't see how I could make it any better.

Looking forward to shooting again this weekend and see if the new barrel improves my spread :D (Actually, I don't have a problem with "spread". That's the easy part !)

Steve
===============================================

Hello Everyone,
Happy PM9 owner here (thanks to Jocko, Bawanna & Hickock45) :D Spent a few weeks monitoring this group (best one I've every watched. Polite, friendly and VERY helpful) before making my purchase.

I decided on the PM9 as I had just started my CHL process here in Texas and wanted a reliable pocket pistol with a bit of punch to carry with me on vacation trips, etc. The CM9 was just coming out with a waiting period but I've always been a little short on patience when my minds made up so I forked over the money for the PM. Besides I got that fantastic extra 7 round mag in the bargain! :( (Did you notice that some of the FAQs on Kahr webpage refer to it as a clip?)

To the point. I clean my pistols after every range trip and this time noticed some discoloration (plating flake...if plated, or corrosion of some type??). It showed up after cleaning and using a bore light. Had never noticed it before. I guess I've got around 400-500 rounds thru it by now with hardly any hic-ups other than probably caused by my technique.

I've tried searching posts to this group looking for similar situations but no luck so far. Decided I would just jump in with my question and attach a couple of pictures to see if anyone has seen this condition.

Would appreciate ideas of the cause from the experts among you. BTW I don't use anything caustic in my cleaning process. Originally used Hoppes but lately using M-PRO-7 which works great in all my guns.

The sticky on preparation was fantastic as well as the break cleaner recommendation (thanks Jocko)

Thanks to all for any suggestions.[/QUOTE]

[Bawanna]

Looks fine to me.

[lostagain]

Something must be going on in the barrel department at Kahr. There is guy on another forum with a CW9 having the same problem starting back in August. His replacement barrel did the same thing. Sent the whloe gun in and was finally told he would get his gun back with a new barrel. Gun returned today with the same old barrel in it. Needless to say he's not a Kahr fan at the moment.

[Eagleks]

Yep, that's me.

First barrel did it badly in the chamber area ( 3/4 flaked off, pitting, metal degraded, etc .. gun full of black junk and shiny specks throughout). They did replace the barrel after some "discussion" where Kahr was telling me it must be my fault. Second barrel did the same thing in only 100 rds. Send back... again. Now have it back, but ....

Kahr has told me :
1. They have been replacing a lot of barrels this year with this problem
2. It is NICKEL plating (not chrome), which is soft, and was done to extend barrel life but they found it didn't really extend the barrel life.
3. It seems to be on guns made in the last year (problem in the process)
4. They are trying to use up all of those barrels and are not doing it on any future barrels, but that will be awhile before they have them all used up. Seems alot of debate going on within Kahr about it.

It's been a bad experience, especially on a new gun. It has not convinced me on Kahr.

http://www.ksccw.com/showthread.php?t=29563&page=1

[jocko]

nickel plating indeed does prolong barrel life. Its in efvery military beretta and their M4. Kahr just got a batch of bad plated barrels. I just don't forsee them not plating their barrels. They don't do their nickel plating as it is vendor work, so kahr would not know thney are bad until us shooters get them for a few rounds down range. Not alibiing fgor kahr on this, it is theire problem ultimately and they will make it right with all owners of bad barrels..

[PCollen]

nickel plating indeed does prolong barrel life. Its in efvery military beretta and their M4. Kahr just got a batch of bad plated barrels. I just don't forsee them not plating their barrels. They don't do their nickel plating as it is vendor work, so kahr would not know thney are bad until us shooters get them for a few rounds down range. Not alibiing fgor kahr on this, it is theire problem ultimately and they will make it right with all owners of bad barrels..

Is THAT why Kahr is suddenly offering their guns at discounted prices, as well as offering the free mag if you buy one NOW ? I'm going to keep an eye on my new CM9...a close eye.

[Eagleks]

nickel plating indeed does prolong barrel life. Its in efvery military beretta and their M4. Kahr just got a batch of bad plated barrels. I just don't forsee them not plating their barrels. They don't do their nickel plating as it is vendor work, so kahr would not know thney are bad until us shooters get them for a few rounds down range. Not alibiing fgor kahr on this, it is theire problem ultimately and they will make it right with all owners of bad barrels..

I can only go by what they've said to me, what's happened, and my experience with this.
1. They told me it was "my fault" and would not replace it at first. (maybe they are finding they are replacing so many, they are trying to avoid anymore expense on their part). This is obviously a process problem.
2. It took a lot of "discussion" before they would "look at it" and once they did, they agreed to replace the barrel. But, they told me initally the cost would be "on me".
3. Later admit they are having "lots" of problems with the barrels, and replacing LOTS of them due to this problem.
4. They "know" they are bad, if they replacing a lot of them, but still putting them onto guns until those barrels are all used. (per Kahr). So, they are playing the percentages and trying to save costs hoping a high percentage are good.
5. Their study, showed nickel DID NOT prolong the life .... (per Kahr).
6. Per Kahr, once they use up all of the one's with nickel, they are looking at no longer using it on their barrels, because it did not extend the life.

Unless Kahr does absolutely no testing.... most companies have a SOP of taking one out of every so many units one to test it. If they are having many failures (like they say they are) , they usually stop until they find out what issues in the process are causing it (at the vendor) and returning any existing items for to be redone. Apparently, they are not doing either.

These are some of the reasons that most use "chrome" because it does not have these problems. Chrome is harder than nickel and not reactive. But, it is more expensive than nickel to do . Why, just plate the feed ramp and the chamber area ? I have yet to figure out the advantage in that.

100 rds thru the 2nd barrel, and it did the same thing.....

[Eagleks]

Sorry boss, but they have hard chromed bores not nickle plated.
Regards,
Greg

Sorry to tell you, but on the feed ramp and the chamber it's NICKEL. Call Kahr and ask them, that's what they told me. They do not use chrome in the bore, nothing is in the bore.

Second, I got told absolutely DO NOT use HOPPES # 9 by Kahr, and then another rep said it wouldn't hurt it.

[jocko]

they chroime/nickel the entire barrel, not just the feed ramp and chamber.

[gb6491]

Eagleks,
Sorry to read of your misfortune with the flaking nickle.
To clarify, did you have any accuracy or reliabilty issues with the second barrel? Was the flaking just a cosmetic issue (still understandable)?
I've never fathomed the nickle plate myself and have oft wondered if it hasn't been the cause of some feed issues we've seen on the board.
Regards,
Greg

[PCollen]

I can only go by what they've said to me, what's happened, and my experience with this.
1. They told me it was "my fault" and would not replace it at first. (maybe they are finding they are replacing so many, they are trying to avoid anymore expense on their part). This is obviously a process problem.
2. It took a lot of "discussion" before they would "look at it" and once they did, they agreed to replace the barrel. But, they told me initally the cost would be "on me".
3. Later admit they are having "lots" of problems with the barrels, and replacing LOTS of them due to this problem.
4. They "know" they are bad, if they replacing a lot of them, but still putting them onto guns until those barrels are all used. (per Kahr). So, they are playing the percentages and trying to save costs hoping a high percentage are good.
5. Their study, showed nickel DID NOT prolong the life .... (per Kahr).
6. Per Kahr, once they use up all of the one's with nickel, they are looking at no longer using it on their barrels, because it did not extend the life.

Unless Kahr does absolutely no testing.... most companies have a SOP of taking one out of every so many units one to test it. If they are having many failures (like they say they are) , they usually stop until they find out what issues in the process are causing it (at the vendor) and returning any existing items for to be redone. Apparently, they are not doing either.

These are some of the reasons that most use "chrome" because it does not have these problems. Chrome is harder than nickel and not reactive. But, it is more expensive than nickel to do . Why, just plate the feed ramp and the chamber area ? I have yet to figure out the advantage in that.

100 rds thru the 2nd barrel, and it did the same thing.....

Did they say WHY they thought it was YOUR fault, or What you did to cause the problem. What was their rational as to why it was YOUR fault ?

The feed ramp of my new CM9 barrel shines like a diamond, so I suppose it may be at risk of having that problem and I need to get my 'duck in a row' to one day have to deal with Kahr on this issue.

[Bawanna]

I'd not worry about an issue until you have an issue. I'm sure Kahr will be there when you need them. Only causes ulcers and gray hair and we got enough stuff causing that already.

My PM45 ramp shines like a diamond too but I'm not gonna carry Kahrs phone number around in my wallet or check it hourly for an imperfection.

You might be the next Jocko and have 42,000 rounds through that thing without issue and you'll still be able to spell maybe too. How cool would that be.

[Eagleks]

Did they say WHY they thought it was YOUR fault, or What you did to cause the problem. What was their rational as to why it was YOUR fault ?

NO. They just took the stance it couldn't be our barrel, so it must be something you did. I've heard that before from a Co when they didn't want to admit a problem, and were having so many of them, they tried to convince the customer they are at fault and "must have done something".

I just asked, "OH..... what did I do or could I have done to cause that" ? Then there was a lot of pause and then stuttering on the other end of the line.


they chroime/nickel the entire barrel, not just the feed ramp and chamber.

Not in any I've ever seen and I've looked at a lot of them, nor in mine.
The "chamber" where the round sits when loaded is nickel plated, the feed ramp is nickel plated, but the "bore" of the barrel is purely metal and no nickel. It will reflect light and look shiny, but it's just light reflection, there's no nickel that I've found.

You must have one of a kind.


I'd not worry about an issue until you have an issue.

I'ld agree with that. But, on any "new" guns I would be conscious that they are experiencing issues with them right now, and it's something to check.
2 barrels down with no more rounds in them than that, is a concern for me. If I had known it before I bought mine, I would not buy one until I was sure they had resolved their problem, if nothing else to avoid all of the headaches that this has been so far for me.

I shot 28 rds in it today, on top of their 28, and I'll break it down later and see if it's holding up.

[jocko]

well EAGLELKS. ur wrong on the partial nickel plating of kahr barrels. I checked with kahr the other day and they replied kback and this was not from a phone call person, but someone who does know what they are talking about which evidently u do not as far as the plating thing goes.

I have his direct quyote posted on this forum if u are interested..

[Eagleks]

well EAGLELKS. ur wrong on the partial nickel plating of kahr barrels. I checked with kahr the other day and they replied kback and this was not from a phone call person, but someone who does know what they are talking about which evidently u do not as far as the plating thing goes.

I have his direct quyote posted on this forum if u are interested..

My info came primarily from the gunsmiths working on it. I consider them a good source, vs a customer service rep on the phone.

I can guarantee you, and I've had 2 other Kahr fanatics I know look at it.... and both stated, "there isn't any plating in that barrel". ...... and said there wasn't in their's either. I didn't examine their guns, they know whether it is or isn't. One of these guys whole life has been spent on 'plating' and chemical process of metal. So, we both may be correct.

I'm not stupid to plating, I've been around about every mfgr process you can think of in one form or another for over 40 + years.

I said, I can only speak to "this gun" and one's I've intentionally looked at since I had the issues, and the bore is not nickel plated. They believe that Kahr intentionally took the barrel and polished it out.... just like they did the chamber.... as I can guarantee you that's exactly what they did to the chamber on this one and it no longer has any nickel plating. They removed whatever was "left " of it.

You can make all the personal assaults you want, and can bite me, as I DO know what I'm looking at.

The real issue to me is 1) why are they having so many issues with so many barrels, 2) their customer service weren't positive to deal with and had to push the issue for them to fix their own barrel, and 3) having a 2nd barrel doing the same thing after only 100 rds.

None of those impress me at all about Kahr. Back up your product and fix it when there are issues.