Why not a chambered round?

[jmurch]

I started to post this as a response to another user saying that they are selling their MK9 because it's too hard to rack. I didn't want this to seem like an attack on him so I didn't hijack his thread.

But, I've heard and seen this often on posts and in person.

Whether CCW or in the nightstand what good is having a handgun without a round chambered? WTF? Are you hoping to have two free hands if you need to use it?


Jeff

[rholmes69]

With some women, it is a fear/safety thing, enhanced by the fact most Kahr's don't have a "safety".

Don't know if that is the case, just offerring up a suggestion. I agree, what is the purpose of not having one chambered.

[JFootin]

I am not sure that is the issue. Even if one is OK with carrying with a round chambered, one wants to be confident that they can rack the slide to clear a jam, or failure to fire, or failure to lock back after the last round. I read where someone said that a gun becomes a club to hit someone over the head with if you can't ready it to fire bullets. I personally hope that my CM9 loosens up a lot with a few hundred rounds through it, because the slide is almost impossible to rack at present.

[TomMc]

That's why a quality holster and a covered trigger is so important. If you carry, be ready and that means having a round chambered. You'll likely be surprised when you need your weapon and not being able to pull the trigger in that split second may be the difference. I see advocates online for some of the "sticky", "flimsy", IWB holsters and in my opinion, there's just not enough trigger protection. BE SMART. BE SAFE. BE READY.

[Scoundrel]

I wonder if anyone who is having trouble racking their slide has tried this concept:

With your strong hand holding the gun pressed against your chest (pointed straight out):
HOLD the slide with the weak hand. Grab that sucker hard.
PUSH the gun forward with the gun hand, shoving it outward while the weak hand tries to hold that slide back.

The idea is that you can hold that slide in position with your weak hand better than you can pull on it. So you use the strong hand to push the gun forward, rather than using the weak hand to pull the slide backward.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3069858666_b7e0a608f3.jpg

Yeah, it hurts a bit. You'll build up some calluses, and/or you won't even notice the pain when the s*** hits the fan and you're racking your slide frantically.

The instructor used this tool to help a couple of noobs at a live fire training course I went to a couple months ago. It helped those two guys get over their slide racking issues they were having with their shiny new not-yet-broken-in guns, and other than a few limp-wrist-related feed jams, they were good to go for the rest of the class.


The other thing to try (or maybe do both) is rack that slide overhand:

YES:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/using-right-handed-gun-semi-autos-05.jpg


NO:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/armed-senior-citizen-safest-way-to-rack.jpg

[aray]

As I recall jocko recommends revolvers for women in part for the very reason that it is hard for some women to rack the slide.

They would have to do that to clear a malfunction even if the first round is hot.

[jocko]

none in the pipe, NOT A GUN but a prettyrock

[Longitude Zero]

Agreed. Kahrs have a tendency to be hard to rack the slide until it has a few rounds thru it. Even then most smaller guns are hard to rack the slid due to spring tention and there is less gun to grab on to.

[TominCA]

Without a chambered round an auto can be slow getting into action - or maybe not useable at all if you are using your other arm to ward off an attack. IMO a good holster or empty pocket is good protection for a loaded Kahr and will prevent misfires. Its really no different from a revolver in that the long trigger cycle fires the gun. I feel a lot better with a round chambered Kahr than I do with a locked and cocked 1911.

[Thunder71]

I gave up on getting into these arguments, but will say there are some pretty good points supporting both methods, it all comes down to your personal situation and assessment of risk.

A chambered round can be more dangerous than the risk of an intruder in some people's hands.

I support both methods, so long as you practice/train in the same manner you carry.

[wyntrout]

That's critical to daily carry or home defense... practice and familiarity with your gun(s) and conditions. I like the KISS method and keep all of my guns loaded, safety off. My wife can handle the guns and we don't have kids.

I do have a few that aren't loaded and those aren't "deployed" for use. I don't have too many guns, but they don't ALL need to be laying about ready for use. :)

The only one I ever used a safety on was my TPH in .22. That one can fire if dropped a certain way. That was before I got polymer Kahrs.

I only carry those now and the manual of arms for all is the same, even the diminutive P380, which is why I bought it... full-sized features and just like the other Kahrs.

Wynn:)

[recoilguy]

That's why a quality holster and a covered trigger is so important. If you carry, be ready and that means having a round chambered. You'll likely be surprised when you need your weapon and not being able to pull the trigger in that split second may be the difference. I see advocates online for some of the "sticky", "flimsy", IWB holsters and in my opinion, there's just not enough trigger protection. BE SMART. BE SAFE. BE READY.

I hate when I see good guns in cheap holster. When I say cheap what I mean is poor quality, flimsy ones. If you spend the money on a good gun please also spend the money on a good holster. There is not enough protection for the trigger. they have zero retention, you can not reholster with one hand, but hey they are cheap and hold a gun......if you don't need it and walk slowly.

One in the pipe gets my vote.

RCG

[TheTman]

My friend is still carrying his Kimber Ultra Carry II with and empty chamber, until he can get the trigger weight increased to 6 lbs or so. It's way too light right now, maybe 3 lbs. He's been practicing drawing and racking the slide and is pretty quick, but I wish he'd get that trigger pull increased and put one in the pipe if he's going to carry. Actually, I'm trying to talk him into a CW45, and he was going to order one, but something came up that he needed the $$$ for. He is in worse condition than I am, and I think the Kahr trigger system would work well for him too, where a muscle spasm won't cause the gun to fire.

[jmurch]

His Kimber doesn't have a safety?

[mr surveyor]

A chambered round can be more dangerous than the risk of an intruder in some people's hands.





I would be interested in the examples to support this thought.

[gundawg]

Any gun i have in my home that's not locked in it's case, and in the safe, has a round chambered.

[Thunder71]

I would be interested in the examples to support this thought.


YouTube has plenty of support for my statement, not to mention the Internet in general (search "accidental discharge" or "negligent discharge").

I'm always curious, and wish there were data on this - but I always question the following:

1. How many times have people been injured/killed from an 'accidental' discharge?

2. How many times have people needed to shoot someone to save themselves?

3. Out of those in question 2, how many were time critical enough to not allow the extra 1/2 second chambering of a round prior to the incident?

[jmurch]

I've taken a few personal defense classes from NRA certified instructers and a common theme in all of them has been that you use one hand to fend off the attacker while you use your other hand to draw and fire your pistol.

[gundawg]

YouTube has plenty of support for my statement.

I'm always curious, and wish there were data on this - but I always question the following:

1. How many times have people been injured/killed from an 'accidental' discharge?
2. How many times have people needed to shoot someone to save themselves?
3. Out of those in question 2 were time critical enough to not allow the extra 1/2 second chambering of a round prior to the incident?

When i first started carrying concealed, I did so without one in the chamber, that lasted about a week. I kept going through scenarios while walking around, and came to the conclusion for me it made no sense to add a extra action to what I am sure will be a very stressful situation if I have to ever pull my weapon.

I understand some just not being comfortable with a gun loaded, but I have to wonder also if you don’t feel competent enough to carry loaded if you should be carrying at all.

I also understand about someone being worried about a 3 lb trigger pull, I would not want to carry a gun that light on a trigger.

[jocko]

lets face it, we know people who shouldnot be driving cars, and there are many people also who should not own a gun. It is not alwayts the end result of some things.

I myself have read on other forums (this one seems far different) of what I call RAMBO's who I also feel should not own a gun, Just my two cents but I think you have read some posts from some of these "gun" owners who youmight say "WOW WTF.


Well maybe not the WTF part, but u get my point.

[TheTman]

JMurch, it has a safety, it's just an officers sized 1911. He's just reluctant to carry a round in the chamber.

[jmurch]

thetmanski,

i know i was kind of being a smart-ass. what i was getting at is he wouldnt carry a 1911 type pistol without the safey on even with a 9 pound trigger so the trigger pull to me anyway wouldn't matter much. now as far as after ive drawn and taken off the safety would i want a 3lb trigger? not for a carry gun. i dont even know if id like that light for an idpa gun.

[Rainman48314]

I started to post this as a response to another user saying that they are selling their MK9 because it's too hard to rack. I didn't want this to seem like an attack on him so I didn't hijack his thread.

But, I've heard and seen this often on posts and in person.

Whether CCW or in the nightstand what good is having a handgun without a round chambered? WTF? Are you hoping to have two free hands if you need to use it?


JeffNot only do you need two hands free, you need time and the training to act properly.

To me,, unless a round is in the pipe, you have an ammo storage device.

[Rainman48314]

My friend is still carrying his Kimber Ultra Carry II with and empty chamber, until he can get the trigger weight increased to 6 lbs or so. It's way too light right now, maybe 3 lbs. He's been practicing drawing and racking the slide and is pretty quick, but I wish he'd get that trigger pull increased and put one in the pipe if he's going to carry. Actually, I'm trying to talk him into a CW45, and he was going to order one, but something came up that he needed the $$$ for. He is in worse condition than I am, and I think the Kahr trigger system would work well for him too, where a muscle spasm won't cause the gun to fire.
Talk him into an HK P7. You carry UNcocked but with a round in the chamber. Squeezing the grip is very natural, releasing the grip cocker is easy for reholstering. Its 9mm but very accurate.

[Thunder71]

With a Kahr you need 2 hands free, but I can rack the slide of my XDM with one hand using nothing else.

I used to carry unchambered and practiced as such, I now carry with one in the hole but do not believe that it's the only way.

[Jason]

I totally agree with yopu Tom Mc a good quality holster is the difference in being comfortable with a round chambered , and I believe it is very important to have that round already ready to go to save that 1 split second that you cannot get back .. My wife was very hesitant of having a semi auto because no matter how many times I showed her how to operate it she was not comfortabe. So we got her a SandW 38 and she is happy. Guess what if she is happy I am happy .:)

[jmurch]

Jason,

My wife's gun is a SW 637. She shoots less an if she needs it I want it to be an uncomplicated point and pull.

[jocko]

u know it is again all about personal preferece. The norm certainly is to carry with one in the pipe but some guns are more touchy than others in that mode and if one feels uncomfortable about it, then he should do what he feels is right for him and the gun involved. I know we are merely giving our opinion and more than likely our method of carry to but everyone is different. maybe not as debatealbe as to ammo preference etc, but the combination of two could keep a forum going for a long time..

[recoilguy]

3. Out of those in question 2, how many were time critical enough to not allow the extra 1/2 second chambering of a round prior to the incident?

how many AD happened because one was in the pipe, and how many happened after someone racked the slide took the saftey off and then was careless with their weapon? It is not always because you carry with one in the pipe and also I bet many AD are truthfully carelessness of the operator, who pulled the trigger without knowing what he was shooting at or what was behind his or her target and called it AD. Guns don't just go off you have to pull the trigger.


I am all for doing what you are comfortable with and what I type on the internet is most of the time my opinion on a situation unless I present it as a fact. However the 1/2 second you take to rack you slide is more time then just the 1/2 second.

I can go from my holster to ready to make a hole in something in less then a second, I practice drawing my weapon every day. If I had to rack the slide I would have to draw my weapon, rack my slide, restablish a good grip find position 2 move to position 3 aquire my sights and now i am ready to shoot. thats 3 seconds easy. In the 2 extra seconds how far can a guy with a knife move toward your daughter?

Also what do you do if someone is near you and pulling their gun to use it. You need one free hand to grab their gun hand and not let the gun come out of the holster and the other hand to aquire your weapon, if its not loaded you better hope the other guy thinks it is and ceases to struggle.

I don't know carry, empty if you feel it is best, but pray you just need to carry and never put it to use.

RCG

[JFootin]

With a Kahr you need 2 hands free, but I can rack the slide of my XDM with one hand using nothing else.

Please explain how you do this. Or a Youtube video would be nice. :rolleyes:

[Scoundrel]

I just tried this. I was able to rack the slide on my Ruger P95 one-handed. I pointed the gun down, pressed the sights against the side of my jeans really hard, and shoved downward on the grip. I was able to chamber a round from the magazine that way.

I also did it with my CM9. It was harder, and if you haven't done the "slingshot follower mod" there's a high probability that you'll get a feed jam, but it is in fact possible.

But it's not comfortable (especially with any pants lighter than denim), and I wouldn't recommend it in a life or death situation.

[jmurch]

You didn't do this with a live round I hope? I think I'd be more worried about shooting myself in the thigh with that method than I would carrying one in the chamger.

[Scoundrel]

You didn't do this with a live round I hope? I think I'd be more worried about shooting myself in the thigh with that method than I would carrying one in the chamger.

I kept my finger WAY away from the trigger, and yes, I was a little nervous. But I kept the barrel pointing slightly away from my leg.

I did in fact say I don't recommend this method, just that it's possible. I was playing "devil's advocate" just to say that it can in fact be done. But then you can jump off of a bridge, too.

[Scoundrel]

In hindsight, I should have used a snap cap. I have five of them handy. But, I didn't put a hole in my leg/foot this time.

[JodyH]

If I was going to mug somebody I'd approach casually then sucker punch them followed by beating them to the ground.
My alternate plan would be approach casually and pull my gun from a hoodie pocket and aim in on them.
Either way I (the bad guy) have the initiative.
If you think you'll be able to draw, rack a round in the chamber and get a shot off before I have you beat unconscious or shot through the heart... good luck.

[Thunder71]

Please explain how you do this. Or a Youtube video would be nice. :rolleyes:

Just for you, I can do this much faster but for demonstration purposes I slowed it down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnC-hQhzWc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[JFootin]

Just for you, I can do this much faster but for demonstration purposes I slowed it down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnC-hQhzWc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

Wow, thanks! :) So the XDM is THAT much easier to rack? But you must have strong hands, too.

[hdsteve69]

I carry chambered all the time even with my glock that has a 3.5# trigger, you just have to follow gun saftey rules . Keep your finger off the trigger until your on your target. I always practice keeping my finger off the trigger when I am practicing drawing from a holster. Go do a idpa or other shooting match and I can guarantee if you start out keeping your finger on the trigger alot before you are ready ,by the end of the day you wont (dont ask how I know this).

[Thunder71]

The key is to get a wide grip on it, makes it easier and faster.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[jmurch]

HDSteve,

I got in trouble at my very first idpa match for touching the trigger when i was moving.

Jeff