Is shoot-through pocket holster legal?

[kahrlover123]

Something like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHOOT-THROUGH-POCKET-WALLET-HOLSTER-KAHR-P380-/190557049161?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5e15d149

I just talked to a friend cop and he told me that it's not legal to carry one unless you get a license for it.
In order to get it legally you have to do one of the two things:
1) buy it from a level 3 dealer and pay $5 to transfer to you.
2) or file a form, attach $200 and send it to the Fed to apply.

Can anyone confirm this is true or bogus?

[wyntrout]

That's B.S. I think you just need a Concealed Weapon Permit, as required for the gun, but not for a danged holster.

Of course, you might live in Commiefornia... who can keep up with all of the laws or local LEO ideas that pop into their heads??

Wynn:)

[kahrlover123]

Nope, I'm in Texas (the most free state) :D

Seriously, what I was referring to is if you use the shoot-through pocket holster for P380. It's listed as "Any Other Weapon" AOW ... and it needs to be registered with the FEDs or you will get a felony charge + civil lawsuits if you shoot someone.

[OldLincoln]

IMO, A holster is not a weapon if it stays in the pocket and unless edged with a knife blade or similar I would say outside the pocket also. There is no difference in "fact" of shooting an un-holstered gun while in the pocket than a holstered gun. The gun discharges inside clothing which could be a coat or pants, or I suspect a purse might qualify.

I say "fact" because I have read that shoot through holsters are illegal. I don't understand the logic except it takes an advantage away from a robber. The scenario is you are being robbed and take out your "wallet" that happens to be a shoot through and shoot the bad guy.

Of course we all must agree that's unfair for the bad guy. You didn't let him know you were about to shoot him nor read him his rights. Further if he said he would leave, you didn't cover your eyes and count to one hundred.

[wyntrout]

Nope, I'm in Texas (the most free state) :D



I would debate that when it comes to CCW laws. I was living there... my second highest state of residence... and didn't bother getting a permit when CCW became legal, because the Democrat DA didn't like it and everyone rushed to put the "no-guns" sign in the windows or on the doors. My wife was going to retire from the USAF and we were moving from San Antonio afterwards, but that was a year or so later.

We couldn't even carry lock-blade knifes there in S.A!

Here in FL I can go into banks and CCW, eat in a restaurant, AND even DRINK some wine with my dinner. My right to self defense doesn't end because I go out to eat and have an adult beverage. I had better be in the right if I use my weapon, because that issue will definitely come up, as it should!

Our permit is for concealed weapons, too, any legal ones, not just firearms.

Wynn:)

[garyb]

Wise to check your local and state law to be certain of everything....but you need to be a lawyer to understand them. Seems silly to legislate a holster or pocket knife, but who knows what states and locals will do.

[Bawanna]

I agree with Old Lincoln. It's no different that shooting thru the pocket of your jacket.
Until you actually have to shoot someone (hopefully never happen and odds are it won't) its a non issue. If that time comes it will be the least of your worries.

[OldLincoln]

Well, go figure! I couldn't leave this alone so went to the BATF Site (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#any-other-weapon) and they DO consider it an AOW (Any Other Weapon):

Wallet Holsters http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/thumbs/wallet-holster.jpg (http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/wallet-holster.jpg) http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/thumbs/wallet-holster-2.jpg (http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/wallet-holster-2.jpg)

Notice: All “Any Other Weapons” have a mandatory tax of $200.00 for making. Transfer of an “Any Other Weapons” is an additional $5.00.

Classification: Any Other Weapon with firearm
Distinctive Characteristics: Holster has hole to fire weapon
Rate of Transfer Tax: $5.00 with firearm; no tax without firearm

[wyntrout]

Those aren't really "holsters" that you draw your weapon from in order to fire the weapon. I guess they are now weapon-firing devices. :rolleyes:

I sure wouldn't consider something like that. Those look like A.D.s waiting to happen. :eek:

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Exactly they are everything a holster should not be.

[cgo99]

Nope, I'm in Texas (the most free state) :D
.
Wrong, that would be Florida. :001_tt2: Just saying.

[pappy42]

I would debate that when it comes to CCW laws. I was living there... my second highest state of residence... and didn't bother getting a permit when CCW became legal, because the Democrat DA didn't like it and everyone rushed to put the "no-guns" sign in the windows or on the doors. My wife was going to retire from the USAF and we were moving from San Antonio afterwards, but that was a year or so later.

We couldn't even carry lock-blade knifes there in S.A!

Here in FL I can go into banks and CCW, eat in a restaurant, AND even DRINK some wine with my dinner. My right to self defense doesn't end because I go out to eat and have an adult beverage. I had better be in the right if I use my weapon, because that issue will definitely come up, as it should!

Our permit is for concealed weapons, too, any legal ones, not just firearms.

Wynn:)

Wynn, I'm afraid that you either misunderstood our CHL laws or listened to too many keyboard commandos. A local Texas DA can only prosecute violations of laws passed by the state legislature, except for city ordnances which are superceded by state law. So a DA who likes or dislikes a state law should not bother anyone willing to operate under the law.

As for the "no gun signs", they must comply with the CHL law and be posted in two languages. I fully support any private citizen, business, or employer who does not desire to have armed citizens enter their premises. It may interfer with your perceived rights; but they have rights also, and those rights are protected under Texas Law.

Lock back knives (except switch blade knives-federal law) are only prohibited if the blade length exceeds 5" or can be construed as a "dirk or a dagger".

If you care to learn facts; a CHL holder in Texas is only carrying illegally if he or she is "under the influence", which is the same standard for operating a motor vehicle. Did you choose not to get a Texas Driver's License because you couldn't abuse alcohol or drugs and drive?

By the way; I'm retired from 25 years of law enforcement and a Texas Concealed Handgun License Instructor.

I've got my flame suit on and am ready, willing and able to be flamed; however, I won't stand for the Great State of Texas to be misrepresented.

[OldLincoln]

Yeah, if everybody that wanted to live in Florida moved there the whole state would break off the mainland and either become an island or sink - likely sink. Be nice if a few million staunch conservatives moved from CA & NY and voted there in 2012. No chance of moving either CA or NY into a red state but Florida is a definite possibility.

Get enough gun totin right wing, tea party radicals there and we might have something. Float a navy around the peninsula and fence the upper boarder and issue state ID cards.

We can follow Obama's lead and tax all registered Democrats more because they are "special". It's already a "Right To Work" state and we could persuade major conservative manufacturing to relocate there.

Privatize the school system bringing in quality education including accurate, non-abridged, non-politicized, non-politically correct, flag waving, pledge of allegiance speaking (including "Under God") Curriculum. Requiring teachers to sign documents pledging allegiance to the USA as their only citizenship and non-affiliation with Communist, Marxist, or other revolutionary organizations.

Sigh.... there I go again, day dreaming out loud.

[jlottmc]

I would debate that when it comes to CCW laws. I was living there... my second highest state of residence... and didn't bother getting a permit when CCW became legal, because the Democrat DA didn't like it and everyone rushed to put the "no-guns" sign in the windows or on the doors. My wife was going to retire from the USAF and we were moving from San Antonio afterwards, but that was a year or so later.

We couldn't even carry lock-blade knifes there in S.A!

Here in FL I can go into banks and CCW, eat in a restaurant, AND even DRINK some wine with my dinner. My right to self defense doesn't end because I go out to eat and have an adult beverage. I had better be in the right if I use my weapon, because that issue will definitely come up, as it should!

Our permit is for concealed weapons, too, any legal ones, not just firearms.

Wynn:)


Oh how things have changed. No worries on the locales you mentioned to carry in, and unless the sign is verbatim, it holds no water. I rarely see them anymore. Knives as long as they are 5 1/2 inches and under, not automatic, and not double edged you're good. S.A. is full of themselves and have been slapped down and around more times than I can count.

[wyntrout]

Wynn, I'm afraid that you either misunderstood our CHL laws or listened to too many keyboard commandos. A local Texas DA can only prosecute violations of laws passed by the state legislature, except for city ordnances which are superceded by state law. So a DA who likes or dislikes a state law should not bother anyone willing to operate under the law.

As for the "no gun signs", they must comply with the CHL law and be posted in two languages. I fully support any private citizen, business, or employer who does not desire to have armed citizens enter their premises. It may interfer with your perceived rights; but they have rights also, and those rights are protected under Texas Law.

Lock back knives (except switch blade knives-federal law) are only prohibited if the blade length exceeds 5" or can be construed as a "dirk or a dagger".

If you care to learn facts; a CHL holder in Texas is only carrying illegally if he or she is "under the influence", which is the same standard for operating a motor vehicle. Did you choose not to get a Texas Driver's License because you couldn't abuse alcohol or drugs and drive?

By the way; I'm retired from 25 years of law enforcement and a Texas Concealed Handgun License Instructor.

I've got my flame suit on and am ready, willing and able to be flamed; however, I won't stand for the Great State of Texas to be misrepresented.

Dang! Don't get your panties in a wad! I wasn't trying to demean Texas, but I've lived there a major portion of my life and was proud to be a "Texan", too. I don't guess you've lived in San Antonio, but lock-bladed knives were ILLEGAL THERE. And I wasn't knocking Texas Laws. I know what the legalities were, but the trespassing laws were what would keep CCW out of stores. The initial rush was for most stores saying they didn't want it in their stores, but as they found out, a lot of customers just wouldn't use those stores any more. Most businesses quietly took their signs against CCW down.

Since I never got a permit there, I didn't learn the nitty-gritty of the permit laws... and they've been modified a few times since I left in 1997.

I'm a big fan of Texas. My wife was born there, my daughter in San Antonio at Wilford Hall while I was stationed at Abilene, and I've lived there or been stationed there for over 20 years total time, dating back to around 1957 as a child.

I was just joking... sort of... with my wife about moving back there and getting a place towards the west... a more defensible home than here... prices ought to be still low out in the west or west-central area... and not just because of fire sales. It is a real tragedy... the danged wildfires out there. We have some near here and it's real smoky outside, especially earlier in the morning. At times in the past we've had ashes falling with the smoke!

Oh! And about prosecuting Texas Law... the DA we had at the time was very partisan and spring-loaded to prosecute against stuff he didn't like... in any way possible... like even urging businesses to put up the "No Guns" signs. He made no pretense of liking the CCW laws. There was, and still seems to be too much of that political bias with public office-holders.

Wynn:)

[kahrlover123]

So I think my friend cop is correct 100%.
Shoot-through pocket hoster is not legal unless you fill out and apply for AOW license.
What are y'all talking about state laws or Texas in particular?
This is a federal offense. It's a FELONY.


Well, go figure! I couldn't leave this alone so went to the BATF Site (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#any-other-weapon) and they DO consider it an AOW (Any Other Weapon):

Wallet Holsters http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/thumbs/wallet-holster.jpg (http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/wallet-holster.jpg) http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/thumbs/wallet-holster-2.jpg (http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/wallet-holster-2.jpg)

Notice: All “Any Other Weapons” have a mandatory tax of $200.00 for making. Transfer of an “Any Other Weapons” is an additional $5.00.

Classification: Any Other Weapon with firearm
Distinctive Characteristics: Holster has hole to fire weapon
Rate of Transfer Tax: $5.00 with firearm; no tax without firearm

[wyntrout]

We got off topic... :rolleyes: Texas laws.

Sorry.

Wynn:yo:

[OldLincoln]

When I was much, much younger I saw a small caliber forearm pistol. It was a single shot thing strapped to the forearm and fired (somehow) by muscle flexing. Gee suppose the BATF would have gas with that one?

[JFootin]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives in Salt Lake City advises possession of one of these wallets with a firearm in it is illegal. Obviously there would be the concealed weapons charge; however possession of the wallet is an additional charge under the National Firearms Act 26USC 5861 as “Any Other Weapon”. There have been convictions on this charge reference these wallets so there is precedent. If you have any questions reference firearms laws you can contact the NFA Information Branch. (This number is for use by law enforcement only, do not release it to the general public.)

[Bawanna]

I would recommend not calling that number unless you are Law Enforcement. There should be a different number for general questions and such or a web site. They will ask your agency and if you don't have one I doubt they will talk to you much.

In fact with apologies I'll remove the temptation and delete the number.

[OldLincoln]

Okay, we'll keep the number secret. Shhhhhh.....

[Chuck54]

Glad I got rid of my AMT 380 and it's forbidden holster long ago ...... even before the holster became illegal.


Didn't take me long to find out neither was very handy.

[kahrlover123]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives in Salt Lake City advises possession of one of these wallets with a firearm in it is illegal. Obviously there would be the concealed weapons charge; however possession of the wallet is an additional charge under the National Firearms Act 26USC 5861 as “Any Other Weapon”. There have been convictions on this charge reference these wallets so there is precedent. If you have any questions reference firearms laws you can contact the NFA Information Branch. (This number is for use by law enforcement only, do not release it to the general public.)
Now you confuse me.
There are tons of wallet pocket holster that we can use with P380.
Are you talking about all of them are illegal according to BATFE?
I thought it's just the shoot-through holster type.

Can someone please post a direct link (I cannot find one) from BATFE in this particular subject?

Thanks in advance.

[JFootin]

Now you confuse me.
There are tons of wallet pocket holster that we can use with P380.
Are you talking about all of them are illegal according to BATFE?
I thought it's just the shoot-through holster type.

Can someone please post a direct link (I cannot find one) from BATFE in this particular subject?

Thanks in advance.

My quote is from the Law Enforcement Safety Handbook (http://www.icops.org/PDFs/LawEnforcementSafetyHandbook.pdf), page 18. Here is another that answers your question...

"Shown here is a wallet/holster that carries a Beretta semi-automatic .25 cal. with a detachable magazine. Similar wallets can be found online to fit nearly any small firearm. Note that the leather holster/wallet has a hole in it to allow the pistol to be fired while still enclosed in the wallet."
As you see, it is the design that allows you to shoot the gun while still in the holster (or your pocket) that is considered illegal.

Sorry, Bawanna. I should have deleted the phone number.

[Bawanna]

"Sorry, Bawanna. I should have deleted the phone number."

Love means never having to say your sorry. I saw that in an old movie, not sure it's true but lets pretend it is anyhow.
Now go do your homework and clean up your room.

[gb6491]

Well, go figure! I couldn't leave this alone so went to the BATF Site (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#any-other-weapon) and they DO consider it an AOW (Any Other Weapon):

Wallet Holsters http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/thumbs/wallet-holster-2.jpg (http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/wallet-holster-2.jpg)


That little High Standard 22 Mag Derringer/wallet holster combination enjoyed some popularity with the officers of at least one SoCal police dept. in the mid 1970s.
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

Dang! Wife's inbound from work... too late to start any of those DIY projects from your link, Greg! I did get my magazines sorted out for testing, especially the .40 S&W with my God Dots... and the 7-round P380 mags, too, with Gold Dots. Maybe tomorrow!

I just vacuumed and then sprayed Febreeze around. :D

I know she won't be fooled that I "worked" all day!:rolleyes:

Wynn:)

[OldLincoln]

That handbook was an eye opener. I recently read a thread about innovation of handguns. I had no idea there are so many weird things out there. I recall the .22 Survival Rifle that stores components in the stock and see that as a good thing for survivor type backpackers going way deep in the woods or on a boat. Same with the flare gun that's also a .38 pistol on a boat.

[earle8888]

I was forced, to get rid of my shoot through for the High Standard Derringer. In its day a highly concealable and usable weapon. I say forced, I could have done the paper work and paid the $ BUT, I elected to do away with it.

[Bawanna]

That handbook was an eye opener. I recently read a thread about innovation of handguns. I had no idea there are so many weird things out there. I recall the .22 Survival Rifle that stores components in the stock and see that as a good thing for survivor type backpackers going way deep in the woods or on a boat. Same with the flare gun that's also a .38 pistol on a boat.

I had a couple of those 22 Survival rifles. They were very popular with small plane pilots as they didn't weigh much and didn't take up much space. There was room for matches and other small articles inside. Pretty handy really. Ugly some but you can't have everything.