Self Defense Ammo for CM9

[DaCoupe]

Just wanted to check to see if anyone has successfully shot Thunder Ranch +P 115gr DPX ammo through their CM9?

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Pete

[Thunder71]

I've tried a bunch of the more common choices and finally ended up finding one I like, Winchester white box 147 grain JHP. It shoots and cycles very well and I don't experience the nose dive when hand racking the slide.

As an added bonus, it's about $20 for 50 rounds.

http://www.oeoutfitters.com/ProdImages/WSProdLG_WinchesterUSA9JHP2.jpg

[TominCA]

I use Black Hills 115 Extra power HP's. Cheaer at 50 to box and function fine. BH is a good company so I don't have to worry about a lot of shot to shot variation.

[hoghunter]

I know there are all kinds of thoughts on SD ammo, but wanted to see if there is any that are preferred or feed perfect in the CM9? I recall in some previous guns I've owned I purchased short barrel versions of Speer Gold Dot ammo. Has anyone put A LOT of SD ammo down the pipe of their CM9? I am using Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ range ammo. I would tend to just go with hollowpoint versions of the Speer Gold Dot in the same 115gr, but I know they have hollowpoint 124gr, FMJ 147gr, and 124gr +P (among others). I am just partial to Speer as it has always worked well in my guns.

BUT- I just read some great stuff on the Black Hills Ammo 115gr JHP +P. I know NOTHING about Black Hills Ammo. Thoughts? Comments?

[dh2683]

Speer Gold Dot 124g +p JHP. Have about 75 rounds through my CM9 with 0 problems. I think the manual recomends 124g ammo
Have put 400-500 rds various fmj ammo with maybe 3-4 misfeeds & that was in the first 200 rds of break in. :D

[stumprat]

Here is my previous post that includes some carry ammo. Posted in August







In the past week I have put 850 rounds through the pistol. Not a single issue. Varied FMJ stuff for the first 200 rounds. Blazer, PMC, Winchester, and Remington. This thing eats everything I put in it.

For carry rounds. I varied these also. Cor-Bon, Winchester Supreme Elite, Federal HST, and Hornady TAP FDP.

The 124 grain Hornady TAP was by far the most accurate in my gun (yours may differ).

[bonjorno2]

federal 115 +p

[hoghunter]

Sorry, I originally posted this in the wrong thread.
Do any of you go for the Short Barrel version of the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P ? Seems custom designed for the shorter barrel Kahrs but not sure how it performs in a longer barrel. Last question before we break out into a full fledged ammo battle, it is difficult to find info on just JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) rounds. Most vids always show the +P versions. any major difference in going with just a JHP round for SD versus the +P. I checked the Speer website and there is no muzzle velocity difference between the 124gr JHP and the 124gr JHP Short Barrel +P.

[jmurch]

Thunder,

Exactly what I use in my MK9. "Small bullets may expand but big bullets dont shrink"

[Bill K]

Speer Gold Dot 124g +p JHP. Have about 75 rounds through my CM9 with 0 problems. I think the manual recomends 124g ammo
Have put 400-500 rds various fmj ammo with maybe 3-4 misfeeds & that was in the first 200 rds of break in. :D


FYI... From Kahrs Q&A page...

Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr cautions against the use of reloads. Lead (unjacketed) bullets can cause excessive fouling and extra attention to cleaning the bore is recommended after firing lead bullets. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.
>>Back to top

[Bill K]

I know there are all kinds of thoughts on SD ammo, but wanted to see if there is any that are preferred or feed perfect in the CM9? I recall in some previous guns I've owned I purchased short barrel versions of Speer Gold Dot ammo. Has anyone put A LOT of SD ammo down the pipe of their CM9? I am using Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ range ammo. I would tend to just go with hollowpoint versions of the Speer Gold Dot in the same 115gr, but I know they have hollowpoint 124gr, FMJ 147gr, and 124gr +P (among others). I am just partial to Speer as it has always worked well in my guns.

BUT- I just read some great stuff on the Black Hills Ammo 115gr JHP +P. I know NOTHING about Black Hills Ammo. Thoughts? Comments?

I've shot BH 124 +P from my Glock 26 for years. Shot well out of my PM9 but now carry BH 115 EXP for the kahr - like a previous poster mentioned. Used to have the terminal ballistics stats for both rounds into bare gelatin, do remember both bullets performing decently. Believe the 124 is an XTP bullet and the 115 a Winchester bullet of some sort.

Please post the link to the review of BH ammo mentioned in your post.

Thanks...

[aray]

Sorry, I originally posted this in the wrong thread.
Do any of you go for the Short Barrel version of the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P ? Seems custom designed for the shorter barrel Kahrs but not sure how it performs in a longer barrel. Last question before we break out into a full fledged ammo battle, it is difficult to find info on just JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) rounds. Most vids always show the +P versions. any major difference in going with just a JHP round for SD versus the +P. I checked the Speer website and there is no muzzle velocity difference between the 124gr JHP and the 124gr JHP Short Barrel +P.

I just shot two boxes of the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. in both standard pressure and +P Short Barrel version. See: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8621

I did not attempt to recover the bullets in water jugs or jell like so many others do; those videos are all out on the internet. But I can say that in my CW9 both versions fed and fired with no problems. As I said in my review the big difference between the two is that to get the velocity up in the shorter barrels Speer increased the pressure. That gives you more power but at the expense of recoil and bang, all pretty much as you'd expect in a +P load. But reliablity was excellent for either version.

[les strat]

I've tried a bunch of the more common choices and finally ended up finding one I like, Winchester white box 147 grain JHP. It shoots and cycles very well and I don't experience the nose dive when hand racking the slide.

As an added bonus, it's about $20 for 50 rounds.

http://www.oeoutfitters.com/ProdImages/WSProdLG_WinchesterUSA9JHP2.jpg


I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptdL842BAqo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLCF65F7C7FB4B4898

[Thunder71]

Thanks for that link. I guess it depends on what you consider good SD ammo, for me it's one that feeds consistently, this is the only ammo I've tried that has never nose-dived.

Also, living in Minnesota I'm not sure I want my ammo to expand in denim (think thick jacket in the winter).

[Michael W.]

I know there are all kinds of thoughts on SD ammo, but wanted to see if there is any that are preferred or feed perfect in the CM9? I recall in some previous guns I've owned I purchased short barrel versions of Speer Gold Dot ammo. Has anyone put A LOT of SD ammo down the pipe of their CM9? I am using Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ range ammo. I would tend to just go with hollowpoint versions of the Speer Gold Dot in the same 115gr, but I know they have hollowpoint 124gr, FMJ 147gr, and 124gr +P (among others). I am just partial to Speer as it has always worked well in my guns.

BUT- I just read some great stuff on the Black Hills Ammo 115gr JHP +P. I know NOTHING about Black Hills Ammo. Thoughts? Comments?

The Short Barrel version of the Gold Dots are designed to expand
at lower velocities, thus the short barrel designation. The SB's
are notable different in construction than the regular Gold Dots.
In some calibers they have had a very good rep, most notable
the 135gr 38 Special +P.

There are 2 schools of thought on trying to over come the loss
of velocity in short barrel guns. One is to go with +P or +P+
rounds to make up for the velocity loss. I used to think this
way.

The other school of thought and the one that I have gravitated towards
as it makes sense ballistically and also that it has been confirmed by a
Winchester bullet engineer, that being that slower heavier bullets lose less
velocity out of short barrel guns than their faster counterparts. The reason
is that due to the slower velocity there is more "dwell time" for the bullet
in the barrel and thus more efficient powder burn. The faster bullets exit
so fast that a large part of the powder burn happens after the bullet is out
of the barrel and thus is wasted.

Look at this Chrono chart (Belongs to "Molon" on the M4Carbine forum)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/5li8m192c0.jpg

Note that the 147 gr round suffers the least velocity loss.

The second consideration that bears mentioning is that the 147 standard
pressure rounds of any given top shelf defensive ammo will have lower
recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast than it's lighter +P variants.
Thus, faster shot recovery, and reduced potential after effects of the
muzzle blast.

The last thing I'd mention is that 147gr bullet technology has come a long
way, not the least of which the huge performance gap between Federal's
Hydra Shok and it's HST. The former having a spotty record for the
past 20 years, the latter having a spectacular record across all calibers in
the few short years it's been around. The HST projectile does not rely on
velocity in order to expand. (Although velocity will play a part in the
degree of expansion). But rather it is engineered to expand based on the
design of the bullet.

This is somewhat true of the Ranger-T bullet evolution as well but there
are so many variants of the Talon, SXT, T rounds floating around out
there it's hard to keep them all straight.

However, note this quote from Paul Nowak from Winchester:


When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement AmmunitionSo take away what you will from all of this but for the past
couple of years I've settled on the Federal 147 HST standard pressure
for all my short barrel 9's. (Glock 26 and PM9)

While in my G19 I continue to carry the Ranger 127gr +P+.

Caveat to all this is that reliability trumps all. If your gun won't
feed your chosen load then it's not going to do you any good.

Fortunately, my PM9 and CM9 both feed everything
I give it. Neither has ever jammed on any hollowpoint I've
tried.

Michael-

[les strat]

Great post Michael!

[Rubb]

I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptdL842BAqo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLCF65F7C7FB4B4898

The WWB 147 gr. JHP is my go to back up.
I’ve seen conflicting reports but it did well in my own test.
Here’s another WWB test (http://www.btfh.net/shoot/ballistics.html)and a few pics of my own.
I tried other HP’s as my main but, always seem to come back to Gold Dot.
You just can’t go wrong with GD’s IMO :)
4403

4404

4405

[Markis82]

Also, living in Minnesota I'm not sure I want my ammo to expand in denim (think thick jacket in the winter).
If thick clothing is your concern I'd consider Cor-Bon Pow'R Ball or Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.

+1 I'd definitely stick with high quality ammo for self defense. There are many different quality brands. I'm sure you can find one that your gun runs reliably. I'd only use Winchester White Box JHP or FMJ for the range!! Just my $0.02.

[PCollen]

Speer Gold Dot 124g +p JHP. Have about 75 rounds through my CM9 with 0 problems. :D

Good to read this, casue I got a good deal on a boat-load of GD 124 +P for my home defense XD9...more than I'll probably shoot in a lifetime. NOw that I have a CM9 on the way, it has no choice but to run the GD 124 +P .

[PCollen]

The Short Barrel version of the Gold Dots are designed to expand
at lower velocities, thus the short barrel designation. The SB's
are notable different in construction than the regular Gold Dots.
In some calibers they have had a very good rep, most notable
the 135gr 38 Special +P.

There are 2 schools of thought on trying to over come the loss
of velocity in short barrel guns. One is to go with +P or +P+
rounds to make up for the velocity loss. I used to think this
way.

The other school of thought and the one that I have gravitated towards
as it makes sense ballistically and also that it has been confirmed by a
Winchester bullet engineer, that being that slower heavier bullets lose less
velocity out of short barrel guns than their faster counterparts. The reason
is that due to the slower velocity there is more "dwell time" for the bullet
in the barrel and thus more efficient powder burn. The faster bullets exit
so fast that a large part of the powder burn happens after the bullet is out
of the barrel and thus is wasted.

Look at this Chrono chart (Belongs to "Molon" on the M4Carbine forum)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/5li8m192c0.jpg

Note that the 147 gr round suffers the least velocity loss.

The second consideration that bears mentioning is that the 147 standard
pressure rounds of any given top shelf defensive ammo will have lower
recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast than it's lighter +P variants.
Thus, faster shot recovery, and reduced potential after effects of the
muzzle blast.

The last thing I'd mention is that 147gr bullet technology has come a long
way, not the least of which the huge performance gap between Federal's
Hydra Shok and it's HST. The former having a spotty record for the
past 20 years, the latter having a spectacular record across all calibers in
the few short years it's been around. The HST projectile does not rely on
velocity in order to expand. (Although velocity will play a part in the
degree of expansion). But rather it is engineered to expand based on the
design of the bullet.

This is somewhat true of the Ranger-T bullet evolution as well but there
are so many variants of the Talon, SXT, T rounds floating around out
there it's hard to keep them all straight.

However, note this quote from Paul Nowak from Winchester:

So take away what you will from all of this but for the past
couple of years I've settled on the Federal 147 HST standard pressure
for all my short barrel 9's. (Glock 26 and PM9)

While in my G19 I continue to carry the Ranger 127gr +P+.

Caveat to all this is that reliability trumps all. If your gun won't
feed your chosen load then it's not going to do you any good.

Fortunately, my PM9 and CM9 both feed everything
I give it. Neither has ever jammed on any hollowpoint I've
tried.

Michael-

Does all this REALLY make any difference at distances of 3 to 15 feet. You're not going to get into a gun fight in a self-defense situation at 50 feet, or even 30 feet. It's gonna be close up and personal. It will be in a room in your house, not out in the back yard. Or maybe in your driveway when you are getting out of your car, or some whacked out tramp pulling a knife on you at a 7-11.

[Michael W.]

Does all this REALLY make any difference at distances of 3 to 15 feet. You're not going to get into a gun fight in a self-defense situation at 50 feet, or even 30 feet. It's gonna be close up and personal. It will be in a room in your house, not out in the back yard. Or maybe in your driveway when you are getting out of your car, or some whacked out tramp pulling a knife on you at a 7-11.


Does it really matter whether a bullet expands or not? Absolutely it makes
a difference at 21, 15, or 3 feet. Regardless of the distance the idea is to
make a projectile with a relatively low bullet coefficient expand into a
diameter to cause as much trauma as possible while reaching sufficient depth.

Consider this, if you were attacked by a whacked out tramp with a knife
while you were at the ATM and all you had time to do was draw. rock your
arm up and fire from arms length, what do you think will happen if you hit
him with a FMJ? What about a Gold Dot or Golden Saber? Which would
you rather have? And why?

If you're answer is that you'd rather have a modern hollowpoint over
an FMJ, then let me ask the next question....would you rather have
a hollow point that has been proven to fail 30-40% of the time?
(Meaning not expand ie. Federal Hydra-Shok 147gr, WWB 147 JHP)
when for the same amount of money you could be carrying a load that had
been proven to expand 80-90% of the time? (Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot,
Remington Golden Saber, etc)

The difference in cost between WWB 147gr JHP (~$20/50) and Speer Gold
Dot (~27/50) is less than $10. For $10 why wouldn't you give yourself
every advantage in the highly unlikely event that you have to use your
gun to defend yourself at ANY distance?

Michael-

[Markis82]

Does it really matter whether a bullet expands or not? Absolutely it makes
a difference at 21, 15, or 3 feet. Regardless of the distance the idea is to
make a projectile with a relatively low bullet coefficient expand into a
diameter to cause as much trauma as possible while reaching sufficient depth.

Consider this, if you were attacked by a whacked out tramp with a knife
while you were at the ATM and all you had time to do was draw. rock your
arm up and fire from arms length, what do you think will happen if you hit
him with a FMJ? What about a Gold Dot or Golden Saber? Which would
you rather have? And why?

If you're answer is that you'd rather have a modern hollowpoint over
an FMJ, then let me ask the next question....would you rather have
a hollow point that has been proven to fail 30-40% of the time?
(Meaning not expand ie. Federal Hydra-Shok 147gr, WWB 147 JHP)
when for the same amount of money you could be carrying a load that had
been proven to expand 80-90% of the time? (Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot,
Remington Golden Saber, etc)

The difference in cost between WWB 147gr JHP (~$20/50) and Speer Gold
Dot (~27/50) is less than $10. For $10 why wouldn't you give yourself
every advantage in the highly unlikely event that you have to use your
gun to defend yourself at ANY distance?

Michael-
+1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thunder71]

Just because it expands does not mean it feeds well, and Speer Gold Dot is over double the cost of WWB here. Cost aside, it feeds like crap in my PM9 compared to WWB. So long as I don't have to slingshot a round they all work, but if you want to talk reliable consider everything.

It's not a price thing for me, I get what works best. Federal HST 147 in my XDM and P-01, WWB 147 JHP in my PM9.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[Markis82]

Just because it expands does not mean it feeds well, and Speer Gold Dot is over double the cost of WWB here. Cost aside, it feeds like crap in my PM9 compared to WWB. So long as I don't have to slingshot a round they all work, but if you want to talk reliable consider everything.

It's not a price thing for me, I get what works best. Federal HST 147 in my XDM and P-01, WWB 147 JHP in my PM9.

You can do whatever you want. However, I don't think you'll find many people who are experienced shooters and who carry, will agree with you. You don't have to use Gold Dot. There are many other quality rounds out there. I'm sure you can find one that doesn't "feel like crap" (whatever that means). But, please don't bet your life on WWB.

[Thunder71]

I've tried quite a few in it, and WWB has done quite fine.

Hornady Critical Defense
Federal HST
Federal Home Defense
Federal Hyda Shok
Speer Gold Dot

I have a box of Winchester PDX to try once I get my slide back from its Cerakote job.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

[Markis82]

I've tried quite a few in it, and WWB has done quite fine.

Hornady Critical Defense
Federal HST
Federal Home Defense
Federal Hyda Shok
Speer Gold Dot

I have a box of Winchester PDX to try once I get my slide back from its Cerakote job.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse. But, I think your missing the point. There is more to a load than just it going bang. The value of a self defense round is measured it its terminal performance. You have a much, much, much, much, higher chance of stopping a bad guy with a top quality round than WWB. Like in other activities, you want to put the odds in your favor. So, why would anyone start 30-40% behind by using a sub-standard load?

Try:
Remington Golden Saber
Cor-Bon
Winchester Ranger
Double Tap
and the list goes on...

[Thunder71]

If the round nosedives you're at 0 percent and a couple seconds to clear a misfeed is an eternity with a gun pointed at you I would imagine.

I get the point and the logistics and I've also seen tests where WWB 147gr JHP does just fine, it cycles well and goes bang every time. If it fed my HST's as well as it feeds the WWB I'd use HST's across the board and simplify my life to boot.

I'll see how the PDX's do, then try the ones above that I can find locally. It's important to me to have access to the ammo I decide on, I realize I can order it online but I prefer to do business locally when possible.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

[Markis82]

If the round nosedives you're at 0 percent and a couple seconds to clear a misfeed is an eternity with a gun pointed at you I would imagine.

I get the point and the logistics and I've also seen tests where WWB 147gr JHP does just fine, it cycles well and goes bang every time. If it fed my HST's as well as it feeds the WWB I'd use HST's across the board and simplify my life to boot.

I'll see how the PDX's do, then try the ones above that I can find locally. It's important to me to have access to the ammo I decide on, I realize I can order it online but I prefer to do business locally when possible.

Cool, enough said. Except that many of other people who use your gun model, have success with all of those high quality rounds mentioned here. You have nose dives with them. If the only hollow point round your gun will run is WWB, I'd look at the gun and or the mag, not at the ammo.

[Thunder71]

I clearly stated it shoots them all just fine, I've had 0 failure to feeds or failures of any kind with the gun, the only problem I have is when I slingshot a round, sometimes they will go, most often they will not - the WWB has never once nose dived.

May be a miniscule issue, but it's an advantage over the others. I guess everyone has to weigh their priorities, nobody can predict the future and know whether a nose dive will occur or a round won't be the right one to stop a threat, or more likely, you'll never need to fire in self defense at all.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

[mightymouse]

So if the only thing that works in your gun is Wally World cheap-o, then give it up and settle for it? Picky guns are for the back of the safe.
Absolutely not! Do what it takes to have a premium ammo feed flawlessly through your gun. Send it back to Kahr if necessary or get gun that eats what you feed it. You're betting your life on it after all.

[Thunder71]

Send it back to Kahr because it's doing exactly what they know it will and the reason they advice you to chamber the round using the slide release and not sling shot it?

Not sure that would even get a consideration for warranty work.

Anyone have links showing the ammo does not perform, because I've seen links saying the opposite.

Thanks!

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

[Michael W.]

I clearly stated it shoots them all just fine, I've had 0 failure to feeds or failures of any kind with the gun, the only problem I have is when I slingshot a round, sometimes they will go, most often they will not - the WWB has never once nose dived.

May be a miniscule issue, but it's an advantage over the others. I guess everyone has to weigh their priorities, nobody can predict the future and know whether a nose dive will occur or a round won't be the right one to stop a threat, or more likely, you'll never need to fire in self defense at all.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

Thunder,

Not trying to minimize your thoughts and it sounds like you've reached your
position after trying a lot of different things. What I'm trying to understand
is are you saying that you are inserting a full mag into a CM9 with the
slide in the closed position and racking a round in? Or is it with the
slide locked back and trying to slingshot the first round?

This has become a very interesting topic for me because I'm trying
to find a solution for my wife and the CM9 where she can train
to reload consistently. I can slingshot the slide from a lock backed
position on the CM9 but it's not exactly easy. It requires almost perfect
timing to get it far back enough and let it go fast enough.

On my PM9 which has a few hundred more rounds through it's easier.
So I think for me, the answer is to put 500-600 rds through the
CM9 or until it loosens up enough to allow her to slingshot.
(My wife is a lefty and doesn't have enough strength in her forefinger
to drop the slide stop).

If this is the reason that you are carrying the WWB JHP's then let me
suggest something with a shorter OAL, perhaps a 115gr.
I bet the Hornady Critical Defense would feed more reliably
from a slingshot than a 147gr.

Michael-

[Thunder71]

Sorry, it's a PM9 I have not a CM9 sorry for the confusion.

The ammo that hasn't worked was mostly the 115gr versions, it wasn't until I got some of this WWB ammo that the problem went away and I only notice it when I slingshot a full mag by hand, it chambers a round perfectly on anything if I use the slide release.

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[Michael W.]

Sorry, it's a PM9 I have not a CM9 sorry for the confusion.

The ammo that hasn't worked was mostly the 115gr versions, it wasn't until I got some of this WWB ammo that the problem went away and I only notice it when I slingshot a full mag by hand, it chambers a round perfectly on anything if I use the slide release.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

Gotcha. So is there a reason you don't want to use the slide release
to chamber a round? Like I said, for me the issue is that my wife
is a lefty. I personally use the slide release on my PM9.

Incidentally, the gun that we're trying to replace is a Ruger LC9 which
has a very easy to rack slide for my wife. She can chamber a round
from a closed slide or slingshot a racked back slide. Sigh.....but that
trigger, it's really a bear for someone without a lot of hand strength.

If ultimately we aren't able to solve the reload issue on the CM9 I'll
probably stick a Crimson Trace on the LC9 and call it day. She likes that
gun over all and probably with more practice learn to master the long
trigger pull.

Michael-

[Thunder71]

I'm also a lefty, so that might have something to do with it... It's not that I don't like to, it's just part of my home brew defensive training I do for a situation where a round doesn't go bang, I'd hate to waste time locking the slide back if I can just eject a bad round and load another by slingshotting it.

Just one of many odd chance thoughts I've had that I incorporate into practice... just like my one handed slide rack that has been a love/hate thing by some people :)

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[aray]

Michael,

You make a lot of good points but there is one thing I think you (and the Winchester specialist) missed:


Note that the 147 gr round suffers the least velocity loss.

If velocity is a key important criteria (to deliver foot-pounds of energy, cause expansion, etc.) then velocity loss, or percentage velocity loss, is at best only a second order effect. Look at the table you presented. Even if the 147 gr. bullet lost 0% velocity, it is still going slower when it leaves the barrel than any of the other bullets at their maximum loss. In the Kahr column alone the lighter bullets would have to lose between 13-18% velocity before they even approached the 147 gr. bullet at its best. That's well over their rated loss of 5.7-6.2%.

Phrased another way the lighter faster bullets slow down more, but are still traveling significantly faster than the heavier slower bullet regardless of how much it does or doesn't lose.

More important I would argue is the energy (foot-pounds or Joules) delivered to the target. We're talking the product of mass and velocity here. Those are the more important numbers to examine.

I'm not saying don't go with 147 gr. bullets. Indeed I'm carrying Winchester Ranger 147 gr. bullets in my CW9 right now. But I also picked up some boxes of Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. bullets just today to try out. You can see some of my own thoughts on SD ergonomic issues at: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8621 That too is but one thing to consider; I just wrote the review to add completeness to the discussion.

I enjoy these discussions and learn from them all. And over time I've adjusted my own thinking in response. I expect I'll continue to do that. But there is no one perfect bullet that everyone is going to agree on. There are a lot of variables from performance, reliability, ergonomics, etc. All criteria are important. We all just have to listen to all of the data, weight the variables most important to us, and then buy what we feel comfortable with.

[Rubb]

WWB 147’s do well unless there’s denim involved.
I use Gold Dot 124+p or 147 gr as my primary round but, wouldn’t hesitate to use the WWB if I needed to…YMMV

[Benaiah]

Where's a good place online to get 147gr HST's? I just got a CM9 and the HST looks to be a great round, but I haven't found a place to buy them.

[MikeyKahr]

Benaiah,

www.ammunitiontogo.com

Sent using Tapatalk

[wyntrout]

Cost and availability are factors,too... very important ones a year or two ago... and even today. I stay away from the exotica... low-weight higher velocity things with gimmicks. Even the polymer balls and such do NOT ALWAYS perform as designed.

A bonded high-performance JHP designed by experts and proven in the field by major police forces is good enough for me. I like to use the bullet weight that the pistol was designed to shoot, also, which is why I use 124-gr Gold Dots in the 9mm... Short Barrel versions in my PM9, and 230-gr GD SB in my PM45.

I was using the 230-gr Bonded Remington Golden Sabers in all of my .45's, but it got to the point I had to choose something I could get to replace my dwindling supply, and the Speer GD's have a very good reputation. AND comparing the short barrel version to the regular, I decided to pay extra for those to use in my PMs. Then I bought enough to last me a while... regular and SB.

Wynn:)

[Michael W.]

Michael,

You make a lot of good points but there is one thing I think you (and the Winchester specialist) missed:



If velocity is a key important criteria (to deliver foot-pounds of energy, cause expansion, etc.) then velocity loss, or percentage velocity loss, is at best only a second order effect. Look at the table you presented. Even if the 147 gr. bullet lost 0% velocity, it is still going slower when it leaves the barrel than any of the other bullets at their maximum loss. In the Kahr column alone the lighter bullets would have to lose between 13-18% velocity before they even approached the 147 gr. bullet at its best. That's well over their rated loss of 5.7-6.2%.

Phrased another way the lighter faster bullets slow down more, but are still traveling significantly faster than the heavier slower bullet regardless of how much it does or doesn't lose.

More important I would argue is the energy (foot-pounds or Joules) delivered to the target. We're talking the product of mass and velocity here. Those are the more important numbers to examine.

I'm not saying don't go with 147 gr. bullets. Indeed I'm carrying Winchester Ranger 147 gr. bullets in my CW9 right now. But I also picked up some boxes of Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. bullets just today to try out. You can see some of my own thoughts on SD ergonomic issues at: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8621 That too is but one thing to consider; I just wrote the review to add completeness to the discussion.

I enjoy these discussions and learn from them all. And over time I've adjusted my own thinking in response. I expect I'll continue to do that. But there is no one perfect bullet that everyone is going to agree on. There are a lot of variables from performance, reliability, ergonomics, etc. All criteria are important. We all just have to listen to all of the data, weight the variables most important to us, and then buy what we feel comfortable with.


Ray,

You're taking this discussion somewhere above my head (and I'm pretty short:)

I think I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure I buy into
the "foot lbs of energy" as being a very important data point in ammo
selection. To wit, if we're taking the performance of say WWB 147gr JHP
and stacking it up against your Ranger-T 147gr they may generate
the same ft.lbs or joules but have very different results.

I think the defining factor is how the projectile is designed to expand.
The latest generations of the top loads all have some degree of
"controlled expansion" to be able to defeat the FBI barrier requirements
yet still reach the targeted penetration requirements all without
over penetrating. This is a tall task and I think the HST and Ranger-T and
Gold dots are really a marvel of engineering in being able
to achieve this.

So back to the issue of velocity loss, I think you are correct that in
an absolute sense the heavier loads may lose a greater % of velocity
however, in a relative sense, which is where this discussion began,
the point I was trying to make was that velocity loss is not as
significant as one would think when it comes to the terminal performace
of the load when launched from a short barreled gun like our beloved
Kahrs.

I do think we both agree on the issue of "ergonomics" as stated in your
other thread. Another reason why I am favoring standard pressure
rounds in my Kahr pistols. I have no problem shooting +P+ 127gr
Rangers out of my PM9 but this goes back to giving myself every
tactical advantage I can. There is no doubt that there is greater
muzzle blast and longer recovery times when shooting that round
as compared to standard pressure 147gr.

Regarding the 115gr Critical Defense, in my own testing these are
very soft shooting and low muzzle blast rounds. In my case, I think
they are a good choice for my wife as she doesn't shoot nearly
as often as I do. I'm very comfortable with the fact that she can
accurately deliver this round on target consistently with a micro 9mm.

Michael-

[Michael W.]

Where's a good place online to get 147gr HST's? I just got a CM9 and the HST looks to be a great round, but I haven't found a place to buy them.

There has been some scuttlebutt lately that Federal is starting to clamp
down on retailers selling the HST to the general public as it is designated
a "Law Enforcement Only" round. Note that this is not a legal issue
as in most states there is no law against owning and using "LE Only"
designated ammo. These are self imposed restrictions by the ammo
mfgrs and in my opinion more for marketing purposes to funnel civilian
sales towards more expensive 20-rd retail boxes.

But the long and short of it is that HST's are starting to get scarce again.

Currently www.streichers.com (http://www.streichers.com) has the 147gr HST for $25/box.
As mentioned www.ammunitiontogo.com (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com) usually has them but are
currently out of stock.
Also, Mike Holtorf (aka HotPig) on Glocktalk carries HST as well.
http://www.mahsupplies.net/
www.sgammo.com (http://www.sgammo.com) is another favorite place for me to buy
ammo. They frequently have HST's but it comes and goes
so you'll have to check.

You just have to keep your eyes open and snag a few boxes when they
are available. A close second choice for me would be the Winchester
Ranger-T 147gr offering (RA9T) which is usually much more
available.

Michael-

[Markis82]

I have no problem shooting +P+ 127gr
Rangers out of my PM9 but this goes back to giving myself every
tactical advantage I can.
Michael-
Just a reminder, Kahr recommends NOT to use +P+. +P, they say, is just fine. Here is an email I received from Kahr is response to some questions I asked them.

Good morning. Thank you for the question. The CM9 is rated for +P ammunition. We would not recommend +P+. Our only recommendation as far as ammunition goes is brass cased, American made, factory new ammunition. We do not endorse any particular manufacturer or bullet weight. I hope this information helps.
sincerely,
Jay Kahr Customer Service

[MikeG]

Just a reminder, Kahr recommends NOT to use +P+. +P, they say, is just fine. Here is an email I received from Kahr is response to some questions I asked them.

Good morning. Thank you for the question. The CM9 is rated for +P ammunition. We would not recommend +P+. Our only recommendation as far as ammunition goes is brass cased, American made, factory new ammunition. We do not endorse any particular manufacturer or bullet weight. I hope this information helps.
sincerely,
Jay Kahr Customer Service

Hmm, this may be nitpicking but he didn't recommend not to use +p+, he just didn't recommend to use them. Subtle difference, but anyway no manufacturer I know of rates their pistols at +p+ because those pressures aren't standardized or regulated, just like they don't recommend reloads.

[Thunder71]

If they say they don't recommend it, I see no reason to shoot it. Granted, I wouldn't shoot +P+ anyway so my opinion is a bit bias. :)

[aray]

Michael,

Sorry I wasn't very articulate last time.

The major point of my post is that velocity and/or velocity % decrease, in and of themselves are not as important as other factors. You can't ignore them to be sure, but momentum and energy that the bullet transfers to the target can be more significant. A light bullet can make up for the lack of weight by going faster. Conversely a slow bullet can make up for the lack of speed by being heavier. In the table you quoted I was just observing that the faster lighter 124 gr. bullets did indeed lose more speed, but even with that loss were still traveling much faster than the 147 gr. bullets ever did.

Separate from my comments above are the issues of: bullet expansion, weight retention (i.e. you don't want fragments breaking off), over or under penetration, reliability of expansion, reliability of feeding in your gun, what sorts of barriers do you expect to encounter, cost & availability, ergonomics, and many other factors. Indeed these complex and often inter-related factors are why it is so difficult to make these sorts of decisions.

One final comment. I do agree with others that widespread acceptance in major police departments is a factor that must carry some weight. On the other hand I'm not convinced that a good SD round for home use has to meet all standard FBI barrier requirements. In particular I refer to the requirement that it perform well shooting through auto glass. While LEO do have to worry about that sort of thing, I expect I'll never encounter that situation. Indeed if the perp is fleeing in his car, unlike LEO, I can't legally continue the pursuit. The threat (to me) is over.

[tv_racin_fan]

All I really know is that I looked around a bit on the internet and found some ballistic gel test reports. What I found was the the HST round seemed to perform very well expansion wise. Generally the 147 grain loads also seemed to pentrate more than lighter loads. I like good expansion and pentration in a personal defense load.

I had the wife shoot different loads. She said the 147 grain load felt like it kicked a bit more but wasn't enough that she would object. Sadly I was not able to find the 147 grain load (after the initial test load purchase) so I bought several boxes of the 124 grain load.

[PCollen]

Does it really matter whether a bullet expands or not? Absolutely it makes
a difference at 21, 15, or 3 feet.

(snip)....
Michael-

Sorry, I was really referring to velocity and loss thereof, which I know is related to bullet expansion. But most velocity checks are done at greater than 1-5 yards from the muzzle of the gun. The chart gave velocity losses, but I don't think I saw at what distance the velocity losses were measured. I'd think that there is negligable velocity loss in the first 10 ft. of travel for most ammo.

[PCollen]

Gotcha. So is there a reason you don't want to use the slide release
to chamber a round? Like I said, for me the issue is that my wife
is a lefty. I personally use the slide release on my PM9.

Incidentally, the gun that we're trying to replace is a Ruger LC9 which
has a very easy to rack slide for my wife. She can chamber a round
from a closed slide or slingshot a racked back slide. Sigh.....but that
trigger, it's really a bear for someone without a lot of hand strength.

If ultimately we aren't able to solve the reload issue on the CM9 I'll
probably stick a Crimson Trace on the LC9 and call it day. She likes that
gun over all and probably with more practice learn to master the long
trigger pull.

Michael-

The way the Kahr slide mounts on the frame, and the smallness of the gun compared to my XD9, is quite different. It may be that slingshotting the slide may increase the risk of putting some odd torque on it, or some other matter of physics, and thus create loading issues, that would be different than having the slide locked back and then moving forward with no human influence on the slide itself as it moves to chamber a round. Sort of analogous to shooting a bullet from your gun, vs throwing the bullet (extreme, I know, but it gets the point across. ).

[PCollen]

Just because it expands does not mean it feeds well, and Speer Gold Dot is over double the cost of WWB here. Cost aside, it feeds like crap in my PM9 compared to WWB. So long as I don't have to slingshot a round they all work, but if you want to talk reliable consider everything.

It's not a price thing for me, I get what works best. Federal HST 147 in my XDM and P-01, WWB 147 JHP in my PM9.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

Is there a noticeable difference in the shape/size of the bullet of the WWB 147 JHP vs. the SGD 124 +P and the FHST 147 ? I recall seeing a pic of about 7-8 HP rounds lined up and was surprised at the variance in profiles.

[Thunder71]

Yes, there is... length and overall shape of the bullet itself varies a lot more than I would have thought.

Even with ball ammo there's a big difference.

Federal on left - Remington on right

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6007/5962398392_bd9f384030_b.jpg

[Mr. S]

Michael,

Sorry I wasn't very articulate last time.

The major point of my post is that velocity and/or velocity % decrease, in and of themselves are not as important as other factors. You can't ignore them to be sure, but momentum and energy that the bullet transfers to the target can be more significant. A light bullet can make up for the lack of weight by going faster. Conversely a slow bullet can make up for the lack of speed by being heavier. In the table you quoted I was just observing that the faster lighter 124 gr. bullets did indeed lose more speed, but even with that loss were still traveling much faster than the 147 gr. bullets ever did.

Separate from my comments above are the issues of: bullet expansion, weight retention (i.e. you don't want fragments breaking off), over or under penetration, reliability of expansion, reliability of feeding in your gun, what sorts of barriers do you expect to encounter, cost & availability, ergonomics, and many other factors. Indeed these complex and often inter-related factors are why it is so difficult to make these sorts of decisions.

One final comment. I do agree with others that widespread acceptance in major police departments is a factor that must carry some weight. On the other hand I'm not convinced that a good SD round for home use has to meet all standard FBI barrier requirements. In particular I refer to the requirement that it perform well shooting through auto glass. While LEO do have to worry about that sort of thing, I expect I'll never encounter that situation. Indeed if the perp is fleeing in his car, unlike LEO, I can't legally continue the pursuit. The threat (to me) is over.

The point of the velocity test earlier in the thread is that the when fired from a 3" Kahr the velocity lost of the 147 load is very small compared to the service size pistol.

The 124+P and 147 Gold Dots are both recommended loads in 9mm here:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Now if you were using the 3" Kahr which load would you use?

The standard pressure load that is 33 FPS slower than out of a service size pistol.

Or the plus + loads that are 74 FPS (or in the case of the short barrel load 67 FPS) slower than out of a service pistol.

Also keep in mind one of the loads tested is Speers very own "short barrel load" which is only 7fps better than the standard +P loading in this test.

[MikeG]

A very good article, and one that helped convince me that 9mm is a fine substitute for .45acp a while back. Just keep in mind, the main advantage of speer's short barrel rounds is less flash and muzzle blast, a few extra fps is just a byproduct of the more efficient powder burn, which is not an issue in longer barrels. For me, I'll be just as comfortable with either the 147 or 124+p. Still running reliability tests tho so haven't decided yet.

[Benaiah]

I just ordered some 124gr HST's for my CM9. I can't wait to get them and test them. I couldn't find anything negative with this round.

[jocko]

I do think kahr does their testing and sighting in with these gun at I think 10 yards and with 124 grain ammo. what brand I amsure varies with price and availability..

[wyntrout]

Penetration could be very relevant if you're out for a walk and a car pulls up and the occupant(s) open fire on you. Being able to penetrate the door/windows would be very desirable in that UNLIKELY event... but STUFF happens... when you least expect it.

I try to avoid being the only available target... out for late-night walks... or early in the morning. I used to do it walking my dog... but I carried a P12 loaded with 12+1 230-grain Federal Hydra Shoks... 7 1/2 years ago... ammo is different now... sold P12 to get new HDMI-capable stereo for HDTV.

I found it interesting in some windshield penetration tests, that hollowpoints fared better than FMJ... digging in and going straight, instead of being deflected or diverted from point of aim.

Wynn:)