CM9 Repair Update

[hoghunter]

So I got my call today from Kahr customer service. The gunsmith is done with my CM9 and they are shipping it back to me. I asked them to call so I could have a heads up on the return and also talk to them. The customer service person pulled my pistol and read what the gunsmith noted. The gunsmith said that he trimed the recoil spring as this was causing a timing issue resulting in the nosedive. That's it. I inquired about the slide stop and slide stop spring and he said they looked fine. I also mentioned the followers as a possible issue. The CS rep laughed out loud and said that this is not an issue and that they make thousands of followers and the mag catch/follower/nosedive myth is really a non-issue. I asked if they could kindly include a few followers and he said they would. He also said they fixed the mag lock / floor plate issue for me as well. I guess we will see what happens. I can't get to the range until Monday so it will be a few days before I can try it. Another thing, I asked what brand ammo they test with and he said American Eagle. I have noted that my Speer Lawman 115gr I use is very pointed so maybe that was contributing to a nosedive?
Let me here your opinions- do you think trimming the recoil spring (and that's it) will solve the problem? They are the experts so I have to trust their experience.

[jocko]

only time will tell. if u have a timeing issue nose dives can happen, I wonder how an owner would know about the recoil spring thing being out of whack when they make um (buy um).

[hoghunter]

only time will tell. if u have a timeing issue nose dives can happen, I wonder how an owner would know about the recoil spring thing being out of whack when they make um (buy um).


Good question. Just seemed a bit odd that that would have been the sole cause of the issues- but fingers crossed that this will solve the issue. I would love to have been at the shop to see how they determine this as the cause of the problem and then on top of that how do the know how much to trim. I did not measure the recoil spring before it was sent in so I will have no clue as to how much they trimmed, but if this solves the problem we may need to add this to the list of solutions to look at for nosedives. I understand the concept of timing issues / nosedives but trimming the spring would resolve a nosedive on round 2 in the mag?
How does trimming the spring solve a nosedive issue on round 2 in a six round mag? My issues were always round two. How does the spring know to go out of time on the second round? Positive thoughts here, but kind of a head scratcher??

[jocko]

ur right, springs can't count either. If ur problem was only round to and I read all ur posts, I still say it has to be in the follower grabbing partilly on the magazine release button, again the gun itself cannot count and if round two is the culprit then someone needs to explain to me what lse it could be.

hoghunter, are u saying also that round two is with a full magazine or can u load 3 rounds and then round 2 still acts up?? if this is true then it cannot be the follower for the follower is not in that magazine window. can u advise me of this question.

[hoghunter]

jocko,
I see what you mean. I am not sure if the follower is in the mag window contacting the mag release at the time of the nosedive. Here is how it happens on the nosedives.
- I lock the slide back
- Insert a 6 round mag full with 6 rounds in the mag
- Drop the slide lever to rack the slide (thus inserting one round in the chamber)
- Pull the trigger one time
- CM9 goes bang and the slide stays open after the bang
- Look down at the CM9 and the slide is open with the next round nosedived in the magazine
- 99% of my issues happen on that next round after the first bang. I did have a few that the CM9 went bang twice and then the third round was nosedived
- I have never loaded the mag, drop the slide to put one in the chamber, removed the mag to refill back to 6 in the mag. I always just insert a 6 round mag with 6 rounds. So before the first trigger pull I have one in the chamber and 5 in the mag
*** I still don't see what cutting the recoil spring is going to do on round two nosedives. If it was the spring I would think I would have nosedives all the time on a lot of different rounds. If it were a grip issue or tired shooter issue that too would happen at other times***

[hoghunter]

I have never tried a partial mag (ie- only putting 3 rounds in the mag). That would help determine if it is the follower I guess.

[Bear549]

Let us know how it goes for you after you have been to the range. I would suggest starting with the new followers to see what happens.

[jocko]

I have never tried a partial mag (ie- only putting 3 rounds in the mag). That would help determine if it is the follower I guess.

was my point in asking u can eliminate that follower issue very easy by trying this. If it doesn't act up, then I think u have to assme it is still follower releated or magazine catach related. If it works ok in that position, then just get a mag catch, as u haver nutured the followers so try a new mag release button.:third:

[RogerP9fan]

The trimming of the recoil spring sounds irrelevant. It's gotta be something to do with the follower or something catching the round inside the magazine.
Let us know what happens after your range trip.

[royal]

I had nosedives with my new PM9. Followed the instructions in the Kahr-Tech section used some sandpaper and hit the areas of the follower that had obvious raised areas where it was molded.

300 rounds same ammo not one nose dive. Funny the "disconnect" between an entire forum community and the manufacturer of the firearm itself.

[RogerP9fan]

I had nosedives with my new PM9. Followed the instructions in the Kahr-Tech section used some sandpaper and hit the areas of the follower that had obvious raised areas where it was molded.

300 rounds same ammo not one nose dive. Funny the "disconnect" between an entire forum community and the manufacturer of the firearm itself.There you go, good fix. I often wondered that too. Mabe there are Kahr employess here but can't say so for some legal conflict of interest something or another, who knows?

[Quickdraw]

The follower has nothing to do with this issue on the second round. It hasn't even risen enough to get close to the mag catch window yet. Also if the round isn't raised enough to rise into the ramp then it wouldn't be raised enough to be pushed forward by the slide. I believe that the springs in the magazine are too strong and put too much pressure on the round to be fed from a full or almost full mag. The round is getting bound up at the back of the case. When the slide comes forward and the round drags with excessive pressure it is tilting the nose of the bullet down. I've fixed my 7 round mags by cutting 1 coil of the spring off. My 6 round mag has worked well although not perfect. I would imagine as the springs break in and break down a little that they to will function better. Load a mag fully and push the top round forward slowly from the top edge as the slide does and see for youself.

[hoghunter]

The follower has nothing to do with this issue on the second round. It hasn't even risen enough to get close to the mag catch window yet. Also if the round isn't raised enough to rise into the ramp then it wouldn't be raised enough to be pushed forward by the slide. I believe that the springs in the magazine are too strong and put too much pressure on the round to be fed from a full or almost full mag. The round is getting bound up at the back of the case. When the slide comes forward and the round drags with excessive pressure it is tilting the nose of the bullet down. I've fixed my 7 round mags by cutting 1 coil of the spring off. My 6 round mag has worked well although not perfect. I would imagine as the springs break in and break down a little that they to will function better. Load a mag fully and push the top round forward slowly from the top edge as the slide does and see for youself.

QDraw,
Good point. I wonder when Kahr CS said they cut the spring if that meant the mag spring as well? I am 99% confident he said recoil spring, but keep in mind he was just going off of the notes the gunsmith wrote. The CM9 has not shown up yet but I am hoping today will be the day. I did send an email last Friday in to my contact at Kahr asking how reducing the spring solves a round 2 nosedive issue. I pointed out that if it were a recoil spring issue wouldn't it nosedive at other rounds as well? This was the only email I sent to Kahr that was not responded to immediately. As of this morning no response, but maybe he was off Friday? Your post got me thinking that maybe they cut the mag spring?
Time will tell. I remain confident.

[jocko]

It is so so easy to even check to see if the follower has anything to do with feed issues, be it in the 2 or 3rd round.I guess if u load the magazine and feed that first round in the magazine by using the slide release, then the 2nd or 3rd round thing can get alittle confusing.

Take the slide off the gun, empty magazine, take bottom plate off magazine pull follower out, reinsert the magazine tube in the gun, now slowly insert the follower with the spring right under it and look down inside from above. If that follower grabs that magazine release, u need to do something .If the follower slides right by that magazine release button that is now locked into the magazine tube with no hindrance then your magazines are fine. This has been an issue that many here have found and with alittle sanding on the right side of the follower, they solved their issues. Hog hunter and I have conversed by PM and he says his followers slides by with no hiundrance, so that is not his problem. I would find it extremely hard to believe the factory magazine springs are to stout. Kinda hard to figure how kahr fixes some of these thing ssometimes. My betis thatthey clipped the recoil spring a tad, aswehave read of owners callihng kahr about some type of issue and been told to snip a quarter coil off the recoil spring. Makes no sense to me but again we don't know where kahr comes up with some of these answers. My feelings are if the recoil spring is maybe to long, then the facotry sho7uld shorten then with the vendor who makes them, not the owner having to figure out that crapola.

[Gatorbug]

I hope they got it fixed for you Hoghunter. I will be watching to see what they did so i can do it to mine. Thanks for the info.

[apdturbo]

timing is everything, lets hope thats the issue with your cm9

[aray]

Yeah I get how timing can mess things up for sure, but as jocko said earlier timing springs can't count. But magazine springs can count, sorta, by being at different tension with a different amount of rounds loaded. I'm with Quickdraw on this one - trimming the magazine spring seems a more logical fix for a second round nosedive problem than trimming the recoil spring.

[aray]

And oh, I should add, besides the magazine spring we have the parallel thread of magazine follower as well: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7174

Either way it almost has to be magazine related. The magazine is the only thing that can count. Nothing in the slide can do this.

[jocko]

aray: oNE WOULD THINK THAT we have to wait and see how hoghunters testing comes out. I think hog hunter though eliminated the possability of the followers being the culprit in this case:der:

[Quickdraw]

Put a fully loaded magazine in your pistol and load 1 round, I don't care how, rack or release the slide catch. Now pull the magazine out. Is the next round still fully seated in the rearward position or has it slid forward 1/4" to 3/8" when the first round was fed into the chamber? Do that several times and check.

Now load your mag with 4 rounds and do the same thing. Has the top round in the mag slide forward? Probably not.

If the top round in the mag (2nd to feed) slid forward, but not able for the nose to tip up to feed onto the feed ramp then the only place for it to go is under the feed ramp as the slide tries to push it forward to feed.

Take a few seconds and look at it. Analize the malfunction. It is very appearant what the problem is. Someone here talked about polishing the bottom side of the mag feed lips. That may help to eliminate the friction on the first round as it slides forward but the main problem is that there is too much pressure on the first round as it feeds and it is pulling the second round forward with it. It may go beyond just the spring pressure and into the angle of the feed lips on the mag but there's nothing we can do to change that. You can either download the mags 1 round or cut 1 coil off of the mag spring. I cut my 7 round mag springs and the are much better now, my 6 rounder has been OK but none of them are perfect yet. The pistol performs well but the magazine design sucks.

[hoghunter]

Quick,
I just did this with Snap Caps many times. All fo the rounds in the mag slide forward 1/4 inch no matter whether I start with a full 6 rounds or just 3 rounds in the mag. Every time I drop the slide and remove the mag the round is slid up. Now I cannot duplicate the true action of a fired round, slide recoil, next round in the pipe- but all of the rounds caught a bit as they inserted into the pipe. But again, that was done manually running through the rounds in the mag. I will be able to take the CM9 out to the range Saturday morning so a range report and update will be posted. fingers crossed for me, I really want a flawless range visit.

[OldLincoln]

Mine stay fully to the back but I have adjusted the mag lips and use a +5% mag springs from Wolf. There's an old thread on this somewhere around here.

[hoghunter]

Ugh! I am definitely concerned about this forward movement in the mags as this is a warning sign for the nosedives. That first round is pulling the second with it, but let's see what happens. I will have the Kahr repaired/reworked recoil spring CM9 at the range tomorrow morning at 9am. Plan on running 150 rounds down the pipe. Only thing that would stop me is a nosedive early on in the session. If I get a dadgum nosedive I will cry out loud.

[Rainman48314]

Put a fully loaded magazine in your pistol and load 1 round, I don't care how, rack or release the slide catch. Now pull the magazine out. Is the next round still fully seated in the rearward position or has it slid forward 1/4" to 3/8" when the first round was fed into the chamber? Do that several times and check.

Now load your mag with 4 rounds and do the same thing. Has the top round in the mag slide forward? Probably not.

If the top round in the mag (2nd to feed) slid forward, but not able for the nose to tip up to feed onto the feed ramp then the only place for it to go is under the feed ramp as the slide tries to push it forward to feed.

Take a few seconds and look at it. Analize the malfunction. It is very appearant what the problem is. Someone here talked about polishing the bottom side of the mag feed lips. That may help to eliminate the friction on the first round as it slides forward but the main problem is that there is too much pressure on the first round as it feeds and it is pulling the second round forward with it. It may go beyond just the spring pressure and into the angle of the feed lips on the mag but there's nothing we can do to change that. You can either download the mags 1 round or cut 1 coil off of the mag spring. I cut my 7 round mag springs and the are much better now, my 6 rounder has been OK but none of them are perfect yet. The pistol performs well but the magazine design sucks.What about experimenting with some different Wolff springs? I have gotten very infrequent nose dives and haven't tracked which round, mag or ammo was in use. Is 124 FMJ less likely to nosedive than 115 gr? What about HP or +P any ideas?

[apdturbo]

i am awaiting your range test anxiously, i would probably cry out loud too if a nosedive occurs, i hope its flawless for you. especially after how excited you were initially about buying your kahr, then the bullcrap that followed.

[crinko]

I had to send my CM9 back for a jamming issue, well they replaced my barrel and all is well hope your problem is fixed

[Scoundrel]

The follower has nothing to do with this issue on the second round. It hasn't even risen enough to get close to the mag catch window yet.

I'm no gunsmith, but I can tell you that I was having this same exact issue with a 7-round magazine, and that modifying the follower changed it in a big way. It was very consistent regarding which round that nosedive would happen to. I did the follower-sanding mod, and then my nosedives were all across the board in that magazine. Second round, third round, fourth round, it got crazy.

My point is that changing the angle of the follower with sandpaper and making sure it did not get hung up on the mag release affected far more than just that one round in that one spot in the magazine.

I finally sent that magazine back to Kahr and asked them to send me a 6-rounder instead, which they did. Problem solved.

[Quickdraw]

My point is that changing the angle of the follower with sandpaper and making sure it did not get hung up on the mag release affected far more than just that one round in that one spot in the magazine.

I have never said and I have never heard anyone here say anything about changing the angle on the follower with sandpaper, only sanding the right side so that the mag catch does not touch the follower as it rises. The angle of the follower may of may not be a problem but there is nothing we can do about that.

[Scoundrel]

I wasn't suggesting that you did say such a thing. My wording wasn't the best though. I should have said:

My point is that modifying the follower so that it would not get hung up on the magazine release affected far more than just one round.
Also, while I was at it, I changed the angle of the follower, which improved the slingshot racking, but did not affect the nosedive issues.

As to nobody else on this forum saying anything about changing the angle on the follower with sandpaper:
Here's the thread: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943
Specifically: http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=72881&postcount=12

[Quickdraw]

I have never said and I have never heard anyone here say anything about changing the angle on the follower with sandpaper, only sanding the right side so that the mag catch does not touch the follower as it rises. The angle of the follower may of may not be a problem but there is nothing we can do about that.


Key words "I have never heard", till now.