Finally, a range report on the Boberg 9mm

[TheTman]

I've been following development of this little pistol for awhile, they're shipping them and someone has posted their range report here:
http://www.bobergarms.com/forum/topics/1st-real-range-session-with-the-xr9-s

Looks like it's a pretty good though expensive item. You can buy 2 or 3 CM9's for the price of one of these.

[JFootin]

Yeah. When I win the lottery. :wof:

The design intrigues the engineer/designer in me. Really innovative. I would be interested in the XR9 with longer barrel, too, when he gets it in production. Still a very compact gun, and probably more accuracy and velocity.

[JFootin]

The bullet separating is probably something we will see occasionally with a Boberg. Those bullets are grabbed from rest and jerked backwards when the slide is at maximum speed. That is incredible inertia! Lots of Gs. That bullet probably weighed several pounds at that instant! I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see that happen again with these guns.

[TheTman]

I guess he was going to produce the longer barrel version first, but went with the shorty due to popular demand. He does seem to pay a lot of attention to his feedback.

[wyntrout]

That's a very interesting gun. An inch could be added to the barrel and slide making it look more "balanced" to me... I'm not looking for a "pocket" gun, but the option would be nice... and a .40 or .45 would be nice as well.

The inertial-bullet-pulling "feature" could demand better crimped ammo... with cannelures... not unreasonable, but something necessary to consider with hotter defense ammo.

Wynn:)

[CJB]

Browning long recoil type 9mm pistol.

One of the guys at Sensormatic in Deerfield Beach, Florida did that to a Beretta 380 back in the 90's. Neat conversion, but why? You do save some length I guess. But it also adds complexity. Maybe a trade-off, dunno.

[TheTman]

I guess it let him add a little length to the barrel, giving it more FPS and FPE than a comparable sized pistol. They have some statistics posted on their web site showing how the extra barrel length improves perfomance compared to other similar sized pistols. Bobergarms.com is the website. I'm wondering how the pistol is going to be running after several thousand rounds have been run thru it. Boberg says he's tested his pistols with thousands of round, but I'm looking for real user results. They need to hire Jocko to run 30,000 rounds thru one of em and see how it fares.

[jocko]

The bullet separating is probably something we will see occasionally with a Boberg. Those bullets are grabbed from rest and jerked backwards when the slide is at maximum speed. That is incredible inertia! Lots of Gs. That bullet probably weighed several pounds at that instant! I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see that happen again with these guns.

of that but it makes alot of sense. I wills it bacvk and see how it goes, price, and when in the shooters hands will dictate if it is a winner or not. Not to be offensive towards it BUT TO MANY MOVING PARTS FOR ME.

[OldLincoln]

Their blog reported it puts 2,000g on the case. I have a difficult time with that as I doubt I put that much on my inertia bullet puller. There are a lot of parts and it has only been out 3 months, so I anticipate some issues. They had a time getting it right over the development, but probably normal for new innovation.

I applaud them for doing something brand new, whether it works out or not. It will be interesting to see how their products morph over time. This one started at about $900 and has gone up. Probably because they have several months of pre-orders.

[Bill K]

Is the claim to fame having a long barrel in a short length gun, the cost being complexity of the strip and feed mechanism?

[CJB]

Bill K is essentially correct.

For the same size/length of pistol, you can gain barrel length of about the length of a loaded cartridge doing things that way. Ok, so an extra inch of barrel....

I'll take the PM9... I did! And I'll keep it.

[Bill K]

Bill K is essentially correct.

For the same size/length of pistol, you can gain barrel length of about the length of a loaded cartridge doing things that way. Ok, so an extra inch of barrel....

I'll take the PM9... I did! And I'll keep it.

So, you'd gain a barrels inch worth of terminal ballistics but accuracy about the same because of no gain in in sight radius. Still an interesting, if nothing else, design; time will tell.

UPDATE: Might this design have more benefit (incremental difference) if applied to say .32 and .380 ACP?

[TheTman]

That seems to be the case Bill. It does look like a lot of moving parts doesn't it. And at that the barrel is only 3.35 inches long. They report a 15% increase in velocity and 32% energy with that 3rd of an inch longer barrel.


Pocket Pistol
Avg. Energy in Ft-Lbs



Avg. Velocity in Ft/Sec



Similar-Sized Gun*
215 FPE
813 FPS


Boberg XR9-S
283 FPE
932 FPS


Boberg XR9-S Advantage
32% Increase in Muzzle Energy
15% Increase in Bullet Velocity


I hope he makes a go of it, always happy to see a new quality gun maker enter the market, and not some cheapo $129.00 "zip" gun. We have plenty of those. I'm interested in it because it's roughly the same size as a P380 or Beretta Tomcat, yet packs a 9mm +P punch. Should be very concealable. IF it works out.

[Longitude Zero]

The designer is obviously ignorant/indolent/unaware of Ocams Razor...The simplest solution is generally the best. Way too many parts and pieces.

The more that can go wrong will go wrong. Very bad idea well carried out.

[OldLincoln]

The designer is obviously ignorant/indolent/unaware of Ocams Razor...The simplest solution is generally the best. Way too many parts and pieces.

The more that can go wrong will go wrong. Very bad idea well carried out.

That may be so, but it is an interesting solution - although perhaps in search of a problem.

I think to get the market they will shrink the length and barrel an inch. Only then will they have differentiated the pocket gun market. I doubt at gun fight range, many self defense pocket gun types are going to flock to it for 100ft/sec or 1" penetration. Size does matter tho.

[wyntrout]

So does cost and reliability. It will have to be proven in the field... by people who have enough money and want to be adventurous!

Wynn:)

[JFootin]

The bullet separating is probably something we will see occasionally with a Boberg. Those bullets are grabbed from rest and jerked backwards when the slide is at maximum speed. That is incredible inertia! Lots of Gs. That bullet probably weighed several pounds at that instant! I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see that happen again with these guns.


Their blog reported it puts 2,000g on the case. I have a difficult time with that as I doubt I put that much on my inertia bullet puller. There are a lot of parts and it has only been out 3 months, so I anticipate some issues. They had a time getting it right over the development, but probably normal for new innovation.

I applaud them for doing something brand new, whether it works out or not. It will be interesting to see how their products morph over time. This one started at about $900 and has gone up. Probably because they have several months of pre-orders.

A 124gr bullet would weigh over 35 pounds at 2000g.

[wyntrout]

Did I say adventurous? I meant GAMBLE! As with your life and a sometimes bullet puller!:eek:

:behindsofa:

Wynn:)

[ripley16]

I'd certainly like to shoot one. A pretty impressive package in such a small frame. I've yet to shoot a rotating bolt equiped pistol, so I wonder how that affects recoil and feel.

[bigmacque]

wyn mentioned the 'balanced' look; I'm wondering if that design, having the hand forward like that. makes it easier to control and maintain target point.

[jocko]

time will tell. It will never be a big seller due to price but if it works like they say it should then the owners of it should be pleased. To gain any inroads into the gun world today as a new start up company, one has to try to invent the wheel. My problems with this company is that they are only making one gun. Hell of an inestment for only one gun that because it works does not mean it will sell to offset your costs. Not being a negative nanny here on this. Ihave followed his gun for at least 3 years+.

No doubt he has certainly re-invented the wheel, now if it will roll or not remains to be seen.

For me, to many moving parts..

[Bill K]

wyn mentioned the 'balanced' look; I'm wondering if that design, having the hand forward like that. makes it easier to control and maintain target point.

I think it might. That would transfer into shorter times for double and triple taps (assuming a decent trigger and trigger reset). A positive for those of us good enough (not me) to realize that advantage.

We can accomplish the equivalent by choosing softer shooting ammo, that still allows for proper cycling, for our Kahrs.

[TheTman]

Boberg says he got the idea for the design of the pistol from a machine gun that operated like that with tongs pulling the cartridge out of the belt or magazine then inserting them into the chamber. Anyone familiar with machine guns know what gun he might be referencing? I'd think if that design held up to machine gun use, then it should hold up fine for a semi-auto pistol. But again, there are more parts to wear out and/or break, so time will tell how it performs. As far as one gun being produced, he has to start somewhere, and he listened to his fans and came out with the "shorty" first, with the longer more balanced looking longer barrel version to follow. I imagine he's going to stick with 9mm for his pistols for awhile, maybe branching out into .380's and .40's when he has the financial resources to do so. So far his pistols have been selling as fast as he can make them. He has a pretty long waiting list of orders to fill before he can start selling on the open market. I wish he'd get some into the hands of some respected gun testers. I'd like to see what Hickock45 thinks of it. He's pretty straight about his likes and dislikes of guns. His price is pretty high, around $950, I think he's trying to compete with the Rohrberg. I hope as he gets things going and gets some on the market the price will fall to a more reasonable price. That's a lot of money to shell out for an unproven design, but people are snatching them up as quick as he can make them.

Does anyone know how Kahr got started in the business, did they just start with one or two pistols, or did they have quite a few to choose from when they entered the market?

[jocko]

probasbly so, more than likely the K9 was their first adventure. My point is that one product ijntro is very hard to cash flow in todays enviroment. He has been fiddly with the boberg for a half dozen years, I am sure there is alot of venture capital behind him. 80 units a months seems like not alot of revenue for such a costly adventure, let alone if he can maintain 80 units per month in sales . I am confident that for 6 months he willbe able todo that until thegun gets into the hands of shooters kand their reviews will be the make or break thing to. along with a 1K price factor. That leave many in the dust before the game even starts. It is small but it weights more than the PM9 and I would bet he makes very few of the componets fo rthe gun also. All vendor related. I know his grips are vendor made, probably magazines also.

I don';t get to excited about a new gun intro anymore, seems damn near everyone of them has issues, some major, some not. His gun is very unique, for me all parts that move are like any other gun. if one part wears more than it should, timing willbe off and then things happen. Is this going to be one of those carry alot and shoot seldom guns also.. Warranty I have been told is one year, if that is right that would not set well with me.

In reading his stuff to I see now he wants paid up front in order to get on his waiting lst. This definitely doelsn't set well with me. I am not going to hand a new gun maker or any new product maker a full payment and hope to hell I get it within reason time or for that matter at all. I would think with a major majoor gun maker like Ruger or Smith one could trust that they will open their doors tomorrow. What we are reading mostly is texts from Bobberg himself over the company and where it is at etc.

We know of the issues the kahr P380 has had in the past and I credit some of that to the small size of the gun, now we have a 9mm even smaller with totaly different concept in development, and far more moving parts... I am skeptical.

As we all know the best beta testers are not the boberg people by the JOHN DOE shooter and owner of one. That to me will be the proof of the puddin.


One thing is four sure to me. It is one ugly fokker...

[TheTman]

It shows that it weighs 17 1/2 ounces. I think a more fair comparison would be to the MK9, as they are both all metal framed. The MK9 weighs 22 ounces, so the Boberg has it beat in weight, and a 1/3rd inch longer barrel. It is 3 1/2 ounces heavier than the PM9. That bullet separating from the case has me a little concerned about it. I guess you'll want to buy bullets with a tight crimp or else load your own with a tight crimp. I know he does make the frame, internal parts and barrels, and outsources the grips and I know he was looking for a sight vendor that would sell to him wholesale. Not sure what other parts are outsourced. Mags probably. 80 x 950 is $76,000/month, not much revenue to run a company on, but I think he only has one employee to run one of the machines. I imagine production will increase as things get going. I think they are only working days now, they could probably double to triple production by going to 3 shifts. But I think he's taking things slow, right now, in case a problem shows up and he has to rework all the guns.
He says he stands behind his product 100% so we will see how that works out too.
And I'd rather see another high end gun on the market rather than some el cheapo Hi-point type piece of crap.

[jocko]

am I right abou the 1 year warranty or did I dream that.

[Longitude Zero]

am I right abou the 1 year warranty or did I dream that.

If true jocko at this price level it is not much more than a rip off IMHO. That poor of a warranty tells me he has NO Faith in what he designed and built. Thus the answer is to RUN!!!

[ripley16]

And I'd rather see another high end gun on the market rather than some el cheapo Hi-point type piece of crap.

Amen.

[jocko]

here ya go, I found this. looks like some certain hoops one has to go through.

WARRANTY STATEMENT
LIMITED WARRANTY

PRODUCT:
This Limited Warranty is made by Boberg Arms Corporation (the “Company”) for the Boberg XR9 Pistol (the “Product”)

WARRANTY:
Subject to the terms and conditions contained in this Limited Warranty, the Company provides a limited warranty to the original purchaser of the Product that the Product will be free from manufacturing defects for a period of three (3) years from the date of purchase. THIS WARRANTY IS EXPRESSLY IN LIEU OF ALL OTHER WARRANTIES EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE AND ALL OTHER LIABILITIES OR OBLIGATIONS ON THE PART OF THE COMPANY. THERE ARE NO WARRANTIES WHICH EXTEND BEYOND THE DESCRIPTION IN THIS LIMITED WARRANTY, AND THE COMPANY NEITHER ASSUMES NOR AUTHORIZED ANY PERSON TO ASSUME FOR IT ANY OTHER LIABILITY.

REGISTRATION:
The attached Warranty Registration must be completed by the Original Purchaser and mailed with a copy of the sales receipt, Bill of Sale in the owner’s name, or a copy of ATF Form 4473, indicating the date and location of purchase, to the Company within fourteen (14) days of purchase or this Limited Warranty is void. The Limited Warranty is issued to the original purchaser of the Product and upon the sale or transfer of the Product to any third party, the Limited Warranty expires and becomes null and void.

USE:
This Limited Warranty shall only apply where the Product is handled in accordance manufacturer instructions and maintained strictly in accordance with the maintenance instructions, and provided further that investigation and inspection by the Company or its representatives discloses that such defects developed under normal and proper use and are not due to unauthorized adjustments, modifications or defective or improper ammunition. The Purchaser is solely responsible for the inspection of the Product and any claims for visible defects in the Product must be made before the use of the Product. This Limited Warranty does not cover damage or defects caused by mishandling, misuse, or damage from excessive heat or uneven exposure to extreme conditions and physical or chemical abuse.

WARRANTY CLAIMS:
Any Limited Warranty claims must be addressed in writing and delivered to the Company at 1755 Commerce Court, White Bear Lake, Minnesota 55110, along with the Product, a copy of the Bill of Sale in the owner’s name, or a copy of ATF Form 4473, indicating the date and location of purchase, and must state a description of the difficulty or defect experienced. All Limited Warranty claims must be postmarked within thirty (30) days after the Purchaser first learns the facts upon which the Limited Warranty claim is based or such claim shall be deemed to be waived.

EXCLUSIVE REMEDY:
Purchaser’s sole and exclusive remedy against the Company shall be, at the sole option of the Company, the replacement of the defective Product, repair, or refund of the purchase price. THE COMPANY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, GENERAL, PUNITIVE, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM DEFECTS OR NON-CONFORMITY OF THE PRODUCT, REGARDLESS OF THE CAUSES OF SUCH DAMAGE.

[Bill K]

am I right abou the 1 year warranty or did I dream that.

WARRANTY:
Subject to the terms and conditions contained in this Limited Warranty, the Company provides a limited warranty to the original purchaser of the Product that the Product will be free from manufacturing defects for a period of three (3) years from the date of purchase. THIS WARRANTY IS EXPRESSLY IN LIEU OF ALL OTHER WARRANTIES EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE AND ALL OTHER LIABILITIES OR OBLIGATIONS ON THE PART OF THE COMPANY. THERE ARE NO WARRANTIES WHICH EXTEND BEYOND THE DESCRIPTION IN THIS LIMITED WARRANTY, AND THE COMPANY NEITHER ASSUMES NOR AUTHORIZED ANY PERSON TO ASSUME FOR IT ANY OTHER LIABILITY.

[Popeye]

I certainly wish the man well with his venture, and give him credit for thinking outside the box.
That being said, John Moses Browning, John Garand, Gaston Glock, and Alexander Kalashnikov and a host of others all understood one thing though. "Simple is better" when it comes to Full Auto /Semi Auto firearms.

[jocko]

u got that right ol man!!

[Popeye]

u got that right ol man!!


Ol man? I prefer well seasoned.:D

[jocko]

i STAND CORRECTED. It's kinda nice to reminise back 60 years ago and have someone on this forum come back at ya and say , "yup, I sure remember that to" How about when Mickely Mouse came on, Wasn't ANNETTE FUNICELLO a beautiful gal then..

oh my, time for my meds!!

[CJB]

I certainly wish the man well with his venture, and give him credit for thinking outside the box.
That being said, John Moses Browning, John Garand, Gaston Glock, and Alexander Kalashnikov and a host of others all understood one thing though. "Simple is better" when it comes to Full Auto /Semi Auto firearms.

Well, maybe not Garand. But lets not forget William B. Ruger. He knew that simplicity equated to elegance.

Stoner did an ok job of it, especially with guns like the AR5 and AR7.

[TheTman]

I agree, simple is usually better. I too thought it was only a 1 year warranty. 3 years isn't too bad, rather see a lifetime warranty or at least 5 years on such a unique design. I wouldn't be surprised if he did warranty work after the warranty was up, the guy really seems dedicated to his pistol, and seems like a pretty straight up guy. I've read a lot of the forum over there and he really takes time to answer people despite the long hours he was putting in.
I just brought home my first thousand dollar pistol and don't think I'll be buy any more at that price anytime soon. I'll start a different thread on the Dan Wesson that came in today.

[Longitude Zero]

For the cost the warranty should be at least 5 years.

[Popeye]

Well, maybe not Garand. But lets not forget William B. Ruger. He knew that simplicity equated to elegance.

Stoner did an ok job of it, especially with guns like the AR5 and AR7.

Have to remember this was the first part of the 1900's that the first Garand was made and in time Garand was able to put a semi auto rifle in the hands of the average grunt. Germans hated that rifle. It was a simple enough design that could be field stripped cleaned and the main parts replaced in a very short period of time. Many of which can be changed without the use of tools. Most of the springs in a Garand do more than one job. Even the butt plate door spring that holds the cleaning kit and tools does two things. Holds it open holds it closed.:D The man was a genius and way ahead of his time. I can only imagine what he could have done if he had access to a CNC machine and today technology. One rifle that I own and will never be sold is my M1 Garand. It's like owning a piece of American Pie.

[jlottmc]

BTW, that would be Mikhail Timofovich Kalashnikov. I have not heard of a machine gun that ever used that design. Artillery some, and lever actions, but not a machine gun. That being said, there are some obscure machine guns in the world, and I have yet to meet some one who knows about all of them.

[Chuck54]

I will continue to carry my PM9.

May consider a Boberg after they become a bit more mainstream ..... in retail outlets.

[Popeye]

My Bad:D

[recoilguy]

And I'd rather see another high end gun on the market rather than some el cheapo Hi-point type piece of crap.


There is already one of them being produced just down the road from KT in Florida, come to think of it there is 2 of them with in miles of eachother being made in Florida.

We don't have to like what this guy made, but I admire his entrepreneurial spirit. Not many people are willing to put their ideas and their cash on the line. America is indeed a great country. I wish him luck and his product success.

RCG