Laser or no laser

[skater4790]

I went to the range today with my Kahr pm9 that has a Crimson Trace laser. I fired a few rounds and everything went well. After a few more shots my laser went dead. Later I discovered that I need new batteries. The problem is I found myself looking for the red dot on the target and started thinking what would happen in a real shooting. Would I react by going to front sight or would I continue looking for the red dot giving time to my attacker to react. I’m now thinking about removing the laser from gun. Also my service weapon does not have laser (Department will not allow it). So my question is one is it good to rely on lasers and two if my service weapon doesn’t have a laser should my off duty weapon not have laser?

[Bawanna]

I've had similar thoughts recently and I was never a laser guy. More of a keep it simple, less stuff etc as well as knowing the battery will be dead when you need it most. Murphy knows me very well.

That said I put a laser on my PM45 and I think one really can have the best of both worlds. I haven't even had it to the range yet with the laser but my advance plan is to cover up the laser with a piece of tape and shoot it without. I will of course confirm that it's sighted in correctly and will undoubtedly shoot it some with the laser for practice but it's big benefit is at home.
I can practice just point shooting, I just pick out an object and as fast as I can just point and squeeze activating the laser. Its surprising really how close that dot will be to where I'm looking, with no sight picture at all. Excellent for a there is no time to acquire sights, shoot or get shot scenarios. Other than the cost of the laser it's free, don't take much time and I think it's beneficial. (All safety rules apply of course)

The PM45 primarily fills a back up role and my belt gun doesn't have a laser so it also fills in as a training aide which I believe will carry over to my primary weapon as well. Least that is the way it bounces around in my head anyhow.

[Popeye]

Not a big fan of lasers on SD pistols for that very reason. Batteries go dead or laser gets knocked out of wack and the next thing you know in a SHTF situation you have three hot and hard ones in your chest. Really if that situation ever did come up by the time you realized that hey I have no red dot to aim by you could very well be taking your last breath.

[jeepster09]

Realisticly for defense a laser is not needed at all. At the distance using gun a laser is really of no use......aka if you can't hit target at 10 feet or less you are in serious trouble. On a positive side for laser's I feel they do have a detterent effect if it is shining on bad guy, he may decide to retreat so that no shots need to be exchanged.

[MW surveyor]

I'm not a big fan of them for exactly what happened to you (batteries dead). As you said, you kept looking for the laser dot.

Big time delay in eye transmitting to brain, hey stupid, no dot, brain saying WTF then better fire anyway, like right now, now, damn

I can see where they would be a deterrent what with all the stuff on TV and in the movies though.

[Thunder71]

No laser, they are for sharks.

http://youtu.be/Bh7bYNAHXxw

[jmurch]

I never could get my mind working to look for the dot. Then again I can't use a scope on a rifle either................

[Bill K]

My position has been unchanged for years. Great tool for training and practice, particularly point-n-shoot. I'm not convinced of their overall benefit for carry due to slow down looking for the dot say in bright light or failure of some sort. That is a big negative that I've never been able to get past. Agree with previous poster indicating laser not likely needed in most SD situations. I'll go even further... Your sights are not likely to be needed or used in most SD situations because of how close most, but certainly not all, civilian encounters are likely to occur.

[yqtszhj]

I kinda agree with Bawanna on the best of both worlds idea. I have a CT laser for my LCP. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I bought it because of the LCP sights (or lack there of) and figured it would work well if I was in a place where I could not point and shoot or a longer distance where the LCP sights wouldn't cut it. Also it didn't add much bulk either. I've learned to point and shoot the LCP pretty well now and took the laser off for a while, but then put it back on as a just in case. I dont use it to practice much though just make sure it's zeroed in.

I don't have one for my CM9 and won't be getting one just because I figure I can buy more ammo with the money. I can shoot it better than my LCP too.

[recoilguy]

I have a laser, I like the laser, I practice with the gun both with and without it. I can imagine a situation a laser would help very much and I am not so hard core to discount the usefulness of something because there are times it is not required. Many times I will see the dot and see how my sites line up in accordance when I practice. I do not have one on every gun I carry (only one of them) my battery has gone out on it before. I like the laser, I would hate to be in a situation where I wish I hadn't taken it off. I also agree if you rely completely on it and do not practice for it to fail you could be screwed.

RCG

[wayneo1]

I was in the same situation, plus CTC was on sale for my mk9. Then someone reminded me of kiss(keep it simple stupid). It made supreme sense why complicate something that needs to be simple as possible. Besides its more maintainence and I am not a pro.

[O'Dell]

I was in the same situation, plus CTC was on sale for my mk9. Then someone reminded me of kiss(keep it simple stupid). It made supreme sense why complicate something that needs to be simple as possible. Besides its more maintainence and I am not a pro.

Agreed. Why further complicate an already complicated situation. I'll continue to concentrate on the front sight when in a defensive position, knowing that it doesn't need batteries.

[aray]

I agree with all of the no laser arguments above, I really do.

But...

I can't tell you how many videos I've seen on the news of gunfights where multiple shots were fired in close range and no one was hit. I'm sure you've seen them too. The most recent story making the media rounds right now is the guy who was fired from Walgreens after two hoods tried to rob their drug store & started shooting. He ran them off with his own CCW but was fired from Walgreens anyway for having a gun at work. But the point is - no one got hit on either side.

So what all of these videos tell me collectively is that either: 1) there are a whole lot of gun owners who don't even know the basics of the importance of acquiring the front sight, or 2) they could use some help that lasers could assist with, or 3) they are in such a panic that nothing really is going to matter. No fix for 1 & 3 I guess but in #2 you might be better off with a laser than not. Dunno what the truth is, never having been in such a situation or talked to anyone who has been shot at like that, but I do think about it often.

[Bill K]

I agree with all of the no laser arguments above, I really do.

But...

I can't tell you how many videos I've seen on the news of gunfights where multiple shots were fired in close range and no one was hit. I'm sure you've seen them too. The most recent story making the media rounds right now is the guy who was fired from Walgreens after two hoods tried to rob their drug store & started shooting. He ran them off with his own CCW but was fired from Walgreens anyway for having a gun at work. But the point is - no one got hit on either side.

So what all of these videos tell me collectively is that either: 1) there are a whole lot of gun owners who don't even know the basics of the importance of acquiring the front sight, or 2) they could use some help that lasers could assist with, or 3) they are in such a panic that nothing really is going to matter. No fix for 1 & 3 I guess but in #2 you might be better off with a laser than not. Dunno what the truth is, never having been in such a situation or talked to anyone who has been shot at like that, but I do think about it often.

I think it is because many (most?) civilian folks just do square range practice/training and little else. Most, I believe, train/practice to shoot but not to fight!

[jeepster09]

I agree with all of the no laser arguments above, I really do.

But...

I can't tell you how many videos I've seen on the news of gunfights where multiple shots were fired in close range and no one was hit. I'm sure you've seen them too. The most recent story making the media rounds right now is the guy who was fired from Walgreens after two hoods tried to rob their drug store & started shooting. He ran them off with his own CCW but was fired from Walgreens anyway for having a gun at work. But the point is - no one got hit on either side.

So what all of these videos tell me collectively is that either: 1) there are a whole lot of gun owners who don't even know the basics of the importance of acquiring the front sight, or 2) they could use some help that lasers could assist with, or 3) they are in such a panic that nothing really is going to matter. No fix for 1 & 3 I guess but in #2 you might be better off with a laser than not. Dunno what the truth is, never having been in such a situation or talked to anyone who has been shot at like that, but I do think about it often.

I think your #3 is correct:
Laser smaser.....in a gunfight the adrenilin kicks in and a lot of guys could not hit a barn door at 20 feet. Years back here in the Twin Cities a nut case took his AK to our airport and our trained police officer missed him from about 25 feet, he emtied 4 clips of a Berretta 9mm and missed every shot. The bad guy's ak jammed and I beleave he got cut from some broken glass from one of the terminal windows that took a round. I doubt a laser would of mattered. Like I said earlier, I think a laser is good for perhaps de-fusing a situation only.

[Sparks1957]

As I've said many times, My Crimson Trace grips taught me a lot about trigger control. Useful as a training tool at the range, they showed me clearly how I was pulling my shots as I fired. As I got better at grouping my shots, I turn off the laser and try to replicate my groupings without them. I shoot better now because of this training.

With my Kahr however, I doubt I would be shooting more than 10 yards in a SD situation, and a laser isn't going to be a lot of help in a case like that.

[aray]

Well that's probably the case. As I recall CT has a whole series of videos on either their web site or on YouTube that show how to use the laser to improve your trigger control and for training purposes.

[olympicmotorcars]

I took the crimson trace off of mine also. It was working great until one day I was practicing dry firing and noticed the laser was significantly off from the sights.

[mightymouse]

I like them as an option, but you train with and without. What if the situation is not the magic quick draw and shoot, less than 10', but at night, low light and taking cover from behind your recliner or bed? That dot becomes a big advantage without sticking your head out. I'm sick of hearing how dumbfounded a guy is going to be if they don't see the dot. I'm not looking for the dot unless I need it. I'm not going to freeze up and not pull a trigger if the thing fails. Like anything you test it, confirm its operation, replace batteries at regular intervals, maintain it. You think decades of shooting, 99.9% without a laser are suddenly going out the door? The guy who doesn't know what to do if his laser fails is a lost cause. So is the guy who's gun fails, jams, and and is befuddled because that was his only defense. I can shoot with or without and will take the advantage if its needed.

[oneoff]

I prefer no laser, for all of the aforementioned. But I do have one of these that I think is worth the bucks:

http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Training_System/LT-PRO/LT-PRO.html

Its a bit delicate, and batteries are too much in the store. But I've treated mine carefully, and its held up to a lot of shooting. Many thousands of shots. And batteries can be got fairly cheap on Ebay.

[Sparks1957]

I like them as an option, but you train with and without. What if the situation is not the magic less than 10', at night, low light and taking cover from behind your recliner or bed? That dot becomes a big advantage without sticking your head out. I'm sick of hearing how dumbfounded a guy is going to be if they don't see the dot. I'm not looking for the dot unless I need it. I'm not going to freeze up and not pull a trigger if the thing fails. Like anything you test it, confirm its operation, replace batteries at regular intervals, maintain it. You think decades of shooting, 99.9% without a laser are suddenly going out the door? The guy who doesn't know what to do if his laser fails is a lost cause. So is the guy who's gun fails, jams, and and is dumbfounded because that was his only defense. I can shoot with or without and will take the advantage if its needed.

Thank you, you summed it up nicely!

[Bill K]

... . I'm sick of hearing how dumbfounded a guy is going to be if they don't see the dot. ...

Ouch! Not exactly what I said. My fear is of delayed reaction time not of becoming dumbfounded. Real or imagined it remains for me a legitimate concern.

[johnh]

Slightly divergent here, but I have actually come around to using them on my long guns for home defense. The newer (read more affordable) green lasers are very, very bright. You can use them for illumination in very dark areas, and the beam may even be visible. They provide a much easier to pick up dot than red lasers. I would also think there is some added intimidation value to seeing the beam searching across a room. Looks like something from a movie. :)

[Markis82]

I believe it really depends on the gun and the person. I HAD an LCP with a CTC. Due to the size of the gun and small grip it is very difficult to hold the gun steady enough for fast follow up shots and the lack of sights makes a CTC almost necessary on an LCP. I did have mine for 2 years. Shot it often. During the 2 years, it never ran out of batteries or even got dim and never came out of zero. However being a laserguard, the laser's lens was up near the muzzle. It would get really dirty. You can clean it all you want. But after a while, there was a non-removable residue. This caused the sharp red dot to become a red blob. I can imagine this getting worse over time. But, it is some other person's problem now. Shooting the LCP with and without a CTC, I see NO validity in the argument about "looking for the dot takes extra time" or "not seeing the dot if it fails will cost you time" or "activating the laser takes too much time." None of this points seem to hold true according to my experiences. The Kahr CM9 is so easy to aim, shoot, and follow-up, I see no reason for ME to get a CTC for the CM9. However, for the person who carries a weapon for self defense and does not have years of shooting under their belt, I see an advantage. My girlfriend for example. She carries an LCR with a CTC. She does not have years of shooting experience. She does go to the range. But not often enough. She shoots some rounds with the laser on, and some rounds with the laser off. She carries in a pocket in her handbag. I have taught her, that when she feels the littlest bit threatened, has an eery feeling, sees someone or something weird, to stage with her hand in her bag, on the gun's grip and activate the laser. If she needs to draw, she is ready and the laser is on. She just needs to put the red dot on her threat and pull the trigger. As she draws from her bag, she will know the exact second the gun emerges from the handbag, if the laser as failed. She does practice to raise up and use the sights in a laser failure situation. For HER the CTC is a valuable part of her self defense handgun.

[Russ]

The research I have reviewed claims in a situation that requires quick response point shooting is more affective over a laser. Most articles I have read claims the mind will focus on the dot and delay reaction time.

[Rainman48314]

I went to the range today with my Kahr pm9 that has a Crimson Trace laser. I fired a few rounds and everything went well. After a few more shots my laser went dead. Later I discovered that I need new batteries. The problem is I found myself looking for the red dot on the target and started thinking what would happen in a real shooting. Would I react by going to front sight or would I continue looking for the red dot giving time to my attacker to react. I’m now thinking about removing the laser from gun. Also my service weapon does not have laser (Department will not allow it). So my question is one is it good to rely on lasers and two if my service weapon doesn’t have a laser should my off duty weapon not have laser?This is a tough call. The answer for a civilian may be different. I bought my Sig P238 with the laser and never used it, in part because I wanted to learn the gun without it and in part because I screwed up and let cleaning solvent get into it. I now have a six inch wide blury "dot". I also didn't like the switch being on the housing instead of under the gripping fingers. As to batteries, this isn't a concern as you ought to replace them on a monthly schedule. There is no excuse for a dead battery.

Having said all this, I just ordered a rail mounted laser for my M&P 9. I am also puttting the newer Trijicon HD sights on it. Bear in mind the M&P is not an EDC. I keep it in the night stand and hope someday my significant other will shoot it..at the range.

I think you can train around the differences between the duty weapon and the BUG. I think you probably have some solid instincts about using sights (in the case of a laser failure) and I'd bet your point and shoot skills will make sights or lasers moot at very close quarters.

[Markis82]

The research I have reviewed claims in a situation that requires quick response point shooting is more affective over a laser. Most articles I have read claims the mind will focus on the dot and delay reaction time.
Exactly, that is why when you train with the laser you point and shoot. No loss of time. However due to the red dot, you know exactly where that round in going to go. Being responsible for every round that leaves your muzzle, you have no doubts.

[Thunder71]

I disagree, the only thing you know for sure is that there is (possibly) going to be a red dot somewhere, you do not know 100% that it's where the bullet is going to end up. It's mechanical, and electronic, two things to fail (aim and function).

It might not always be visible either, I had a Crimson Trace on my LCP when I had it and could see it about 5% of the time at the range.

[JFootin]

However being a laserguard, the laser's lens was up near the muzzle. It would get really dirty. You can clean it all you want. But after a while, there was a non-removable residue. This caused the sharp red dot to become a red blob. I can imagine this getting worse over time.

Laserlyte makes a laser for the LCP that mounts on the right side, with the laser lens just below the slide and behind the trigger, and just $99.95:
http://www.laserlyte.com/New_Products/index.html

[Markis82]

Saw it. If I still had an LCP I would NOT get that one. With the CTC if you're gripping the gun the laser is on. No buttons or anything to think of or push or try to push and miss. Just point and shoot.

[Markis82]

I disagree, the only thing you know for sure is that there is (possibly) going to be a red dot somewhere, you do not know 100% that it's where the bullet is going to end up. It's mechanical, and electronic, two things to fail (aim and function).

It might not always be visible either, I had a Crimson Trace on my LCP when I had it and could see it about 5% of the time at the range.
I see your point. However, that was not my experience at all. In 2 years of a nice amount of use, I never had a CTC failure. I never had a problem seeing the dot, even at an outdoor range in bright Florida sunshine. Yes, I was 100% sure where the red dot was, the round would end up. Not one question in my mind. As long as there was no shooting technique errors (pushing, flinching, etc...) It is better to point and shoot with a red dot than to do the exact same thing without a red dot for guns like the LCP, Keltec 3AT etc... Those guns are too wobbly and hard to grip to point and shoot without a CTC.

[skater4790]

This is a tough call. The answer for a civilian may be different. I bought my Sig P238 with the laser and never used it, in part because I wanted to learn the gun without it and in part because I screwed up and let cleaning solvent get into it. I now have a six inch wide blury "dot". I also didn't like the switch being on the housing instead of under the gripping fingers. As to batteries, this isn't a concern as you ought to replace them on a monthly schedule. There is no excuse for a dead battery.

Having said all this, I just ordered a rail mounted laser for my M&P 9. I am also puttting the newer Trijicon HD sights on it. Bear in mind the M&P is not an EDC. I keep it in the night stand and hope someday my significant other will shoot it..at the range.

I think you can train around the differences between the duty weapon and the BUG. I think you probably have some solid instincts about using sights (in the case of a laser failure) and I'd bet your point and shoot skills will make sights or lasers moot at very close quarters.

Rainman you are right, laser or no laser I will do what I was trained to do. But the one thing I noticed about the laser was it allowed me to dry fire at home and practice my trigger pull. You try to keep the dot in same location while you pull the trigger. I noticed that when I was training with my duty weapon I was on point. I was shooting like pro. I think my problem was more trigger control and less sight alignment. So I will continue to train with the laser but not use it on off duty weapon.

[Thunder71]

Another method is to place a round on the end of the barrel upside down, if it falls - fail, if it stays upright, you nailed the trigger pull, congratulations.

[skater4790]

Another method is to place a round on the end of the barrel upside down, if it falls - fail, if it stays upright, you nailed the trigger pull, congratulations.

That funny because the last time I had to train with my duty weapon the instructor had us do that.

[tv_racin_fan]

I think a lazer has it's uses and places.

Dry fire practice is one, but the same can be accomplished without the lazer. Steadyness can be practiced with the ole penny balanced on the front sight, or the pencil in the bore just touching a notepad on the wall trick.

Where a lazer really shines is in the unusual stances category. For instance you got mugged at the ATM: bad guy came up just as the cash dropped and knocked you to the ground, you can draw and place the dot on him without having to move the gun up in front of your face to aquire sight alignment. (Top Shot just had the elimination contestants hip shooting where the lazer sure would have been a help)

My wife seems to have an issue with aiming. Surely has to do with old age sight issues since I honestly have some of the same issues in that I can not see the sights clearly. I am trying to teach her to point shoot, where she just pulls the gun up in front of her face and shoots without actually aiming. She requested some of those shoot n see targets... last range trip she was not real happy as she was not hitting her target... I watched her a couple of rounds then stopped her, I explained that she seemed to be actually trying to aquire the front sight, what she was doing was fine EXCEPT she was holding the front sight above the rear sight so she could see it instead of aligning the sights which she couldn't see. I had her hold the gun up as if she was ready to shoot then I adjusted her "aim", next five rounds were inside the 9 ring on an 8" shoot n see target, this with her pulling the gun up and pull the trigger double action then dropping it down. What she needs more than anything is good solid practice and lots of it, everything she learns on one trip she seems to forget by the time she goes back to the range. I think when I get her SP101 I am going to have the front sight removed and a bit of a melt job done on mine, possibly a guttersnipe sight system installed

[earle8888]

IMHO...The Bawana is wright...The BIGGEST advantage of a laser is as a training aide!!!!
For what ever its worth, the say-ers of the effects of a loss of dot in critical, less than 12 feet, is moot if you have been training!!!!!! AND trying to get sight acquisition and aim at a moving target, especially if that person is shooting at you is an almost impossible task.
Point/Instinct shooting is were it is at.
The most important item/thing is TRAIN TRAIN train train!!!!

[mightymouse]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/BowtiedZ/CM9_9_27_11CT-010.png
Shooting standing, no rest, 7 rounds, using both hands from7 yards. I do this about once a month and confirm the CT. Another advantage, once your CT is dialed in, get used to the sight picture. Make both of them work together.
The rest of my boxes were spent shooting as a defensive weapon.
Again it's nice to know the POA is where the POI will be.... if needed.
Still not putting all my eggs in the point blank, point and shoot basket.


(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/BowtiedZ/LCP_CT_21_ft.png)

[knkali]

I have lasers and guns w/o lasers. My carry does not have one. My nightstand gun does. I feel that the probability of using one in home defense is greater than SD on the street. IOW the lighting will probably always be low at home and engage distances greater than when I would pull on a BG on the street.

[Thunder71]

Not a bad point knkali.

[mywytefeet]

Light, yes. Laser, no. Just my opinion.

[Popeye]

I agree lasers would probably be good as a training aid. I can see them for HD or target shooting, but in a real life instanteous life and death adrenaline pumping situations there is no time for aiming, it's strictly point and shoot.

[BrewerGeorge]

I think it's interesting that so many of you are so pessimistic about possible - though unlikely - failures of this device as to forgo the potential benefits. Not too surprising, I guess, given that we're a group of people who routinely choose to be prepared for situations that are unlikely to occur.

I always thought they were a dangerous distractions when their control was some other, added action. Once lasers became available that turned on with a normal grip, though, I think they're just one more arrow in the quiver.

I don't have the CT yet, and I'm tempted to wait for a green version (if that is forthcoming any time soon), but I will be getting one soon.

[Thunder71]

You don't have one, yet state hoe easy they are to use. Well, I've had one and can tell you that even with an integrated system it doesn't always work, and unless it was darker I couldn't see it.

In theory they are great, in reality it's one more thing you hope works if you need it. There's a reason cops with lasers, even factory installed ones, have them disabled.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[Bill K]

I think it's interesting that so many of you are so pessimistic about possible - though unlikely - failures of this device as to forgo the potential benefits. Not too surprising, I guess, given that we're a group of people who routinely choose to be prepared for situations that are unlikely to occur.

I always thought they were a dangerous distractions when their control was some other, added action. Once lasers became available that turned on with a normal grip, though, I think they're just one more arrow in the quiver.

I don't have the CT yet, and I'm tempted to wait for a green version (if that is forthcoming any time soon), but I will be getting one soon.

Hi,

What we are preparing for is to negate the potential horrific consequences should the unlikely occur. I would guess that most of us will get through our natural lives without having to use our guns in SD or HD.

Some of us honestly feel that a laser could cost us should we have to use our gun. It doesn't make me right and the other person wrong it is just the way I feel.

BTW, I hold a similar attitude concerning manual safeties on my carry guns - they're not for me but I respect the opinion and choice of others who would not carry a pistol without a safety.

[Markis82]

You don't have one, yet state hoe easy they are to use. Well, I've had one and can tell you that even with an integrated system it doesn't always work, and unless it was darker I couldn't see it.

In theory they are great, in reality it's one more thing you hope works if you need it. There's a reason cops with lasers, even factory installed ones, have them disabled.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.
I disagree 100%. I've had one for years. I never have a failure. I could see it on an outdoor range in the bright Florida sun. The battery lasted for years and thousands of rounds shot. Just like guns, with lasers you hear from the people who have the problems & failures. So it seems like a lot. But when you compare that to all the lasers sold and those who have complete success, the problems are minuet. Legally armed citizens are not cops.


I agree lasers would probably be good as a training aid. I can see them for HD or target shooting, but in a real life instanteous life and death adrenaline pumping situations there is no time for aiming, it's strictly point and shoot.
You must not have or used a CTC Laserguard. Because if you did you'd know there is NO issue with "no time for aiming." This a Laserguard the activation button is on your grip. If you're gripping the gun, you're activating the laser. So as you said, "It's strictly point and shoot." but now you have a red dot on the spot where the round will go. No aiming, no extra time. Just more accuracy and confidence.

Face it, all you people who talk about laser failures... You don't stop carrying a gun because it might fail, jam, FTF, FTExtract, or FTEject. There might be a bad gun here and there. So, you fix it or replace it and good to go. Same with lasers. You might get a bad one. You either fix it or replace it and good to go. All that said, I do not have a laser on my CM9. I don't feel I, need one. But, guns like the LCP and others that have no sights or are difficult to shoot, lasers are a must.

[Thunder71]

Disagree, that's fine... but my statement is 100% true based on my experience with a CT Laserguard, obviously yours has been different.

Not sure what you mean by 'Legally armed citizens are not cops.' If you're referring to my statement I never said they were, I just said that because there's a reason they are disabling them on their weapons. If they were so great, you'd think they would be using them.

For me there is a huge consideration for aiming with the laser... one would be finding it, if it worked, another would be hoping it was accurate because I was not able to find out at the range because it was too bright (no luxury of shooting at an indoor range with the lights off like they show in their examples on the CT Laserguard site).

It's about risk reduction for me, plain and simple. I fire ammo that I have positive experiences with, I trust guns that have fired 500+ rounds without a single failure. The laser just doesn't fit in the same category for me at all, in my experience.

Glad yours works well for you, but don't assume that anyone who disagrees with you has had the same enjoyable experience you have - I assure you, we're not lying nor trying to decrease the sales for laser products - just stating our personal opinions, just as you are free to do, so that people interested in getting one can make as much of an educated decision as possible before spending the money and trusting their lives to it.

Lasers are for sharks, or sea bass...

http://www.laserburnmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Laser-Beam-Shark.jpg

[Bill K]

Maybe these green laser I've heard about will someday have me changing my mind...

I have an ArmaLaser on my training/practice P3AT and will at times put my CT LaserGrip on my Glock 26 for a practice session. There have been bright sunshine times when both have projected dots that have been difficult or impossible for me to quickly pick up on the target. There have been times, especially when I haven't used it for awhile, when I forget that my normal Glock 26 finger indexing will block the laser.

BTW, right now it is overcast here in my part of Connecticut and a laser would be an asset. See how fair and balanced I am! :)

Please, if ever a poster catch me bashing a person for their belief or choice call me out. Now the opinion or choice itself is fair game. :)

[Markis82]

Glad yours works well for you, but don't assume that anyone who disagrees with you has had the same enjoyable experience you have - I assure you, we're not lying nor trying to decrease the sales for laser products - just stating our personal opinions, just as you are free to do so that people interested in getting one can make as much of an educated decision as possible before spending the money and trusting their lives to it.
Exactly my point. Maybe lasers are not for you personally, and that is not a function of the laser it is a function of the user. Possibly you had a bad one or one that was not ship shape. That is why I explained, "Just like guns, with lasers you hear from the people who have the problems & failures. So it seems like a lot. But when you compare that to all the lasers sold and those who have complete success, the problems are minuet." and, "There might be a bad gun here and there. So, you fix it or replace it and good to go. Same with lasers. You might get a bad one. You either fix it or replace it and good to go." I think your experience is part of the unsuccessful minority NOT the unheard, successful majority. What I meant saying, "Legally armed citizens are not cops." Unlike cops, we cannot be offensive with our weapons, cannot pursue a bad guy, etc... We, in emanate fear of death, can pull or weapons to save ourselves, loved ones, or others. In that respect, having the red dot out there for that second and a half of action can make all the difference. As far as range goes, 7 yards!!! Further than that, you are not in emanate fear of death and an armed citizens should not be using his/her gun.

[Thunder71]

Stating this as a fact:
"that is not a function of the laser it is a function of the user"

Is what aggravates me though... Crimson Trace was of 0 help when I talked to them and told me it was functioning properly and to try it in low light to see if that helped. Gee, thanks... I'll just ask the bad guy if he'd mind standing in the shadows for a moment while I take aim.

[Markis82]

Stating this as a fact:
"that is not a function of the laser it is a function of the user"

Is what aggravates me though... Crimson Trace was of 0 help when I talked to them and told me it was functioning properly and to try it in low light to see if that helped. Gee, thanks... I'll just ask the bad guy if he'd mind standing in the shadows for a moment while I take aim.
That is not the usual from Crimson Trace customer service. They are usually incredibly accommodating and will ask you to send them the equipment for evaluation. Again, I'd say that is the exception not the rule. At 7 yards or in, you should have had no issues seeing the dot. If the threat is further away than 7 yards, it is not a self defense situation. Furthermore, I'm not saying to disregard the sights. You don't remove the sights when you install a laser, you don't block the sights when you install a laser. Practice both ways and if want the sights they're still there.

[Thunder71]

Doesn't surprise me at all really.... it's the same company that, when I mentioned the guard was cutting my finger and making it bleed (sharp around the trigger guard), they told me that it was normal and that others have had that problem as well. Their fix was that I should do what they did and sand it down.

I do know of people in my trap league that are quite happy with theirs, I just have a really bad taste now and can't see giving at least that company another shot. Zero customer service and a product that didn't work as advertised for me.

Unfortunately all the other makers have very clunky looking products in comparison, at least CT made an effort to look factory.

[Popeye]

Markis82
Originally Posted by Popeye http://kahrtalk.com/images/tigra/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=99566#post99566)
I agree lasers would probably be good as a training aid. I can see them for HD or target shooting, but in a real life instanteous life and death adrenaline pumping situations there is no time for aiming, it's strictly point and shoot.

You must not have or used a CTC Laserguard. Because if you did you'd know there is NO issue with "no time for aiming." This a Laserguard the activation button is on your grip. If you're gripping the gun, you're activating the laser. So as you said, "It's strictly point and shoot." but now you have a red dot on the spot where the round will go. No aiming, no extra time. Just more accuracy and confidence

You would be right my friend, I do not have one because IMO as well as many others for a SD pistol it a total waste of money. I'm not a big gadget guy. I would much rather spend that money on ammo to learn how to point shoot the pistol properly, just like it's been done for many years long before lasers became the new toy to put on a pistol. Like others I will not trust my life to some electronic gadget that can fail or get knocked out of wack making it for all intensive purposes wothless. But if it being on your pistol gives you the warm and fuzzies and you shoot better, and with more confidence with it on there than go for it. It 's your dime to what you want.
I prefer to keep things simple and do not feel like I need to have one on my SD pistol. Always prefer to learn how to shoot my pistols the way they came straight out of the box.

[Markis82]

Markis82
Originally Posted by Popeye http://kahrtalk.com/images/tigra/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=99566#post99566)
I agree lasers would probably be good as a training aid. I can see them for HD or target shooting, but in a real life instanteous life and death adrenaline pumping situations there is no time for aiming, it's strictly point and shoot.

You must not have or used a CTC Laserguard. Because if you did you'd know there is NO issue with "no time for aiming." This a Laserguard the activation button is on your grip. If you're gripping the gun, you're activating the laser. So as you said, "It's strictly point and shoot." but now you have a red dot on the spot where the round will go. No aiming, no extra time. Just more accuracy and confidence

You would be right my friend, I do not have one because IMO as well as many others for a SD pistol it a total waste of money. I'm not a big gadget guy. I would much rather spend that money on ammo to learn how to point shoot the pistol properly, just like it's been done for many years long before lasers became the new toy to put on a pistol. Like others I will not trust my life to some electronic gadget that can fail or get knocked out of wack making it for all intensive purposes wothless. But if it being on your pistol gives you the warm and fuzzies and you shoot better, and with more confidence with it on there than go for it. It 's your dime to what you want.
I prefer to keep things simple and do not feel like I need to have one on my SD pistol. Always prefer to learn how to shoot my pistols the way they came straight out of the box.
This is just fine and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But, one who is not familiar should not be making statements like, Re: lasers "but in a real life instanteous life and death adrenaline pumping situations there is no time for aiming, it's strictly point and shoot." "electronic gadget that can fail or get knocked out of wack making it for all intensive purposes wothless." unless you have the experience with the equipment in question. It would be irresponsible to do that. Your non-electronic gadget called your gun can fail or get knocked out of whack and be worthless too. But you still have one. You clean, lube, and check you gun for proper operation to lower the chance of a failure. Well, you do the same with a laser. You change the battery, clean, and check for proper operation. The chances are about the same of a failure with your gun as with your laser. They thought electronics were to imperfect to have fly by wire airplanes. Now it is the norm. I too thought they were a toy until I used and subsequently bought one. I guess from not having one, you can make all kinds of outrageous comments. But, that does not mean what you're saying has value. It is one thing to have an opinion on something you have little or no experience with. But, it is a completely different thing to express that opinion as wisdom. There is nothing improper about point shooting with a laser. You do the exact same thing, except there is a red dot on your target. In this litigious society the red dot can help in more ways than one. I prefer to stack the odds in my favor and have every advantage.

Please, no one take what I say personally.

[Markis82]

Anyone with limited exposure will recognize the names and all are held in high regard by the shooting/combat/competition/training communities. These people have the credentials to render a valid opinion.

"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons

"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor

"Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute

"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant

"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer

"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate

"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor

"I carry a Laser gripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert

[Bawanna]

That's alot of fellas that know of what they speak endorsing a laser.

I myself was never a laser guy until I recently installed one on my PM45. I haven't shot enough with it to determine if its a good thing or a bad thing but using it so far around the house I think it's a very good training aid.

I'll often just pick something out and draw and point and see how close the laser is to what I'm looking at. Surprisingly I'm usually not far off, close enough that it would have been a hit had it been a bad guy.

If nothing else it's a blast to torment the cat. (safety rules apply if you like your cat of course).

No one really knows for sure what they will see or what they will even expect to see when they look the elephant in the eye. I do know that with gallons of adrenaline and usually down right fear coursing through your veins most of your best laid plans will be out the window.

Some here know and they can no doubt attest to the fact that very basic instincts are gonna carry the day.

I guess for the time being I'm still a fence sitter on lasers, I like it, it's compact and unobtrusive, right handy. I'll test it extensively in future range sessions and see how it goes. I'm not gonna knock the sights off my gun and go laser alone so I should have the best of both worlds.

[TominCA]

I have some lasers and they are good training tools and good confidence builders but I don't like them for combat - especially on a light gun.
I had more $ than brains one day and put one on one of my p380's. It changed my grip enough so that function was no longer 100% (its a touchy little gun) and it also was hard to use because the gun recliled so much thet the laser leapt up about a foot at 20 yards. The one benfit was I could shoot 2" groups at 7 yards - which I could probably do with iron sights if I took the time to aim.

I have an S&W combat masterpiece (mod 15?) with a CT grip. It really works good on that revolver and I use that gun for teaching newbies how to shoot. It is much better on a heavy gun! My wife's S&W 38spl bodyguard also has one. It's fun to use and it givers her confidence (my wife does not like guns at all) which is good because she pretty much hates shooting.

[daijari]

As I've gotten older I've become more far sighted, so the laser aids in aiming for me. I cannot see open sights very well at arms length... even painted white they appear as a smudge in my sight picture...

[Thunder71]

Anyone with limited exposure will recognize the names and all are held in high regard by the shooting/combat/competition/training communities. These people have the credentials to render a valid opinion.

Reliable source, straight from the Crimson Trace site I see... Odd how they would have nothing but praise there, I do wonder if any of these 'professional opinions' had some sort of compensation involved?

I'm not for them, and I'm not really against them - they are just not for me based on my experience which others seem to share.

Now, what caliber is best with a laser? :19:

[Markis82]

Reliable source, straight from the Crimson Trace site I see... Odd how they would have nothing but praise there, I do wonder if any of these 'professional opinions' had some sort of compensation involved?

I'm not for them, and I'm not really against them - they are just not for me based on my experience which others seem to share.

Now, what caliber is best with a laser? :19:
Yes, Todd Jarrett is a paid spokesman for CT. I don't believe Massad Ayoob is. I don't know about the rest. However, whether paid or not I doubt any of their opinions are not honest and genuine. In my defense, I didn't and don't know if theses quotes were taken from the Crimson Trace website. I got them from a general article about the value of laser sights and grips.

[les strat]

I practice 90% by sights alone. I do practice with the CT some to make sure it stays dialed in and to stay familiar wit hit. I also practice drawing at an item across the room for fast sight aquistion so my reflexes are there if need be. I do not depend on it but am glad it is there. I wouldn't practice solely with it just as I wouldn't practice for SD at a range with square with both arms. Your chances of that kind of SD situ in real life is about zero.