Some new info and how many rounds until re-clean

[Jpbrewer]

First off, my P380 (Cali edition) had been at the mother ship for over a month. I had several lengthy conversations with Kahr's excellent customer service guys. Here's is what I found out...

1. They know they have a problem with failure to battery with a certain batch of guns from the earlier this year (my gun was purchased in June).

2. It has been very difficult for them to diagnose the problem.

3. They now believe that a batch of frames was made with polymer that was slightly out of spec. When this batch of frames heats up (from firing), they become slightly deformed (swelled) at the REAR portion of the frame. This deformation is causing a failure to return to battery.

4. You probably cannot detect this deformation yourself by looking at the gun, and is has nothing to do with the frame bowing at the front (this is normal and within design spec). Once it heats up and deforms, you are done.

5. They have now resorted to wholesale replacing of frames for the guns made with the bad polymer. Batches of new frames are coming in every week or so and they are getting repaired FIFO.

6. Before they return the gun to you, they are test firing the gun a significant number or times (new frame, old slide) to heat it up and ensure that new frame holds fast.

7. They return the gun to an FFL where you have to pick it up (new serial number on frame). They gave me two new mags for the trouble. They even replaced my decal grips!

Overall, I was very pleased with the courteousness and professionalism of Kahr. They took responsibility and have hopefully fixed the problem.

So if you have a failure to return to battery, SEND IT BACK.

My gun now functions flawlessly for about 70 rounds where I start to get FTFs. So my question for you all is...

How many rounds do you think is reasonable for the P380 before it should be re-cleaned. I am not bitching about 70 rounds, I just wonder what you all are seeing. Clearly, it gets dirty and starts to FTF. But, hey, you can shoot a Glock or XD for 200 rounds without cleaning and no FTF. with the P380, I was using PMC Bronze which is usually pretty clean ammo.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[ripley16]

A modern closed breech firearm should be able to function after thousands of rounds without cleaning. Most people can't tolerate a gun that dirty aesthetically speaking. Lube is another question though... dry is bad.

[gb6491]

Jpbrewer,
Welcome to the forums and thank you for a very informative post!
Regards,
Greg

[OldLincoln]

Ditto on the welcome JP.

Assuming (there's that word again) they returned the same barrel and slide, it should pick up where it left off in the break-in process. There are a couple areas to make sure are clean and lubed (I say with grease). They are: 1) Lube Chart Area 6 where the barrel hood rubs against the top underside of the slide. Make sure that area is smooth and rub in the grease leaving a good coating; and 2) The ramp and inside top of the chamber. These should be really shiny and have grease rubbed into them. I say rub it in because it needs to get into the pours of the metal.

When you have a fail to feed check the ramp to see if it's gunked up. I take a rag to reach down and wipe the ramp occasionally between mags, even though I don't have failures. When closing the slide I can feel when the rounds begin to try to stick on the ramp.

As for how often, certainly not mid range trip, particularly not within 200-300 rounds. But certainly after every range trip no matter how many rounds fired.

[TucsonMTB]

Please allow this fool to rush in and offer an answer to the original question.

In short . . . it depends.

If depends on how tight the pistol is thus how much room there is for grittier by products of shooting to accumulate without preventing movement of a critical component. As you get more rounds on the pistol, the clearances and the number of trouble free rounds will increase.

Although Kahr P380 pistols are rumored to be fun to shoot, most small carry guns in .380 ACP are not designed to be range toys. So, 50 rounds is probably a reasonable number of trouble free rounds in a session. If it goes longer, that's a bonus.

Thinking back to the content of your excellent post, consider that the dimensional changes due to plastic warming up have got to be small. That would suggest small clearances in your pistol.

By the way, some of my 1911's will go for a couple thousand rounds without malfunctions. They are not pocket guns. Some of my other brands of pocket pistols will also go for at least a couple hundred rounds before experiencing any issues. But, those pocket pistols are well broken in and, even when new, had looser tolerances than I have seen on my Kahrs.

Disclaimer: YMMV and this just my opinion based on only a few years of shooting.

[TominCA]

Most of my pistols are cleaned before the point at which they fail. For my S&W M&P that's almst forever. My Kimber about 300 rounds/ My colt 380 about 250. My MK9 maybe 400 but my little P380 I clean every time - they will go 150 plus before "dirting out" but they really like to be clean. Any carry gun IMO should always be cleaned before carry.

[JFootin]

Jpbrewer,
Welcome to the forums and thank you for a very informative post!
Regards,
Greg

Ditto on the welcome, and on a very important post, for 2 reasons:


This confirms from the horse's mouth what has been being guessed about here on the forum: that Kahr has identified a major problem with a pretty good number of P380s, and that it is taking time to get enough replacement parts to take care of the backlog. Hence, some people reporting that their P380s have been at the mothership for many weeks.
This should restore some confidence that Kahr CS is demonstrating willingness to go the extra mile to make things right with the customers.

[TominCA]

Also ---- Thanks for the report on the frames!

[dewoah]

I sure would like to know the serial number range for this batch of frames with bad polymer. If mine is in the lot, I would like to get it corrected before it became a problem.

[jocko]

I sure would like to know the serial number range for this batch of frames with bad polymer. If mine is in the lot, I would like to get it corrected before it became a problem.

doubt if ur ever gonna see that in print. I think kahr will take care of issues on a one to one basis and not in any type of recall, If ur having issues send it back, if your not then don'tr worry about what might not ever be either. they have made over 50K of these guns,I kthink on this forum we might have heard of maybe 3 or 4 frames being replaced, not a pajdemic thing, not a good thing when it happens but kahr is doing the right thing but they are alsop not going to get foolish about it either..

Again we will also hav eto seed if those who have new frames are happy as can be with the results to. Give this sometime to work itself out.:popcorn::popcorn:

[rogerthedodger]

First off, my P380 (Cali edition) had been at the mother ship for over a month. I had several lengthy conversations with Kahr's excellent customer service guys. Here's is what I found out...

1. They know they have a problem with failure to battery with a certain batch of guns from the earlier this year (my gun was purchased in June).

2. It has been very difficult for them to diagnose the problem.

3. They now believe that a batch of frames was made with polymer that was slightly out of spec. When this batch of frames heats up (from firing), they become slightly deformed (swelled) at the REAR portion of the frame. This deformation is causing a failure to return to battery.

4. You probably cannot detect this deformation yourself by looking at the gun, and is has nothing to do with the frame bowing at the front (this is normal and within design spec). Once it heats up and deforms, you are done.

5. They have now resorted to wholesale replacing of frames for the guns made with the bad polymer. Batches of new frames are coming in every week or so and they are getting repaired FIFO.

6. Before they return the gun to you, they are test firing the gun a significant number or times (new frame, old slide) to heat it up and ensure that new frame holds fast.

7. They return the gun to an FFL where you have to pick it up (new serial number on frame). They gave me two new mags for the trouble. They even replaced my decal grips!

Overall, I was very pleased with the courteousness and professionalism of Kahr. They took responsibility and have hopefully fixed the problem.

So if you have a failure to return to battery, SEND IT BACK.

My gun now functions flawlessly for about 70 rounds where I start to get FTFs. So my question for you all is...

How many rounds do you think is reasonable for the P380 before it should be re-cleaned. I am not bitching about 70 rounds, I just wonder what you all are seeing. Clearly, it gets dirty and starts to FTF. But, hey, you can shoot a Glock or XD for 200 rounds without cleaning and no FTF. with the P380, I was using PMC Bronze which is usually pretty clean ammo.

Your thoughts are appreciated.
Wow. Thanks for this info. Mine is on it's way back with a new frame, so I will be interested to hear from others.
Roger

[K.C.]

I sure would like to know the serial number range for this batch of frames with bad polymer.
Mine started with RB if that helps.

[CJB]

In short . . . it depends.


+1 but more than that - it depends on the ammo more than anything

Shoot relatively dirty Bullseye or Unique handloads... vs cleaner powders.

Shoot filthy WWB vs clean Remington or CCI.

You get the idea. Its nice to say, the gun can handle dirt, but its better to say, lets not give it any dirt to start with.

[dewoah]

Thanks K.C. Mine is RB as well. I read of a frame being replaced due to "flexing" problem on another forum and it was RB as well. I am starting to see more and more that this is the fix for many P380 problems. At what point would Kahr decide if a recall is in order? I may never shoot mine enough to have the problems, but if it is one of a lot with bad polymer, it would certainly affect the value.

[O'Dell]

Most of my pistols are cleaned before the point at which they fail. For my S&W M&P that's almst forever. My Kimber about 300 rounds/ My colt 380 about 250. My MK9 maybe 400 but my little P380 I clean every time - they will go 150 plus before "dirting out" but they really like to be clean. Any carry gun IMO should always be cleaned before carry.

I put 150 more rounds through my M&P c 40 last Thursday, and cleaned it as soon as I got home. I always clean any of my guns when I shoot them, be it 300 rounds or 1. The M&P is a sometimes carry gun when I don't have the CW40 on my belt, as are nine other pistols, so they are always clean and lubed - always!