9mm +P ammo

[BePrepared]

I have carried Corbon +P 115 Grain JHP in my K9 since day one. What results/opinions does everyone have with other +P ammo. How about Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 Grain JHP?

[Dietrich]

I may be mistaken but I believe that Kahr advises that you avoid using +P+ ammunition in Kahr firearms.+P is OK along with standard pressure rounds.I got wrapped up in the +P vs standard pressure debate and ended up like a dog chasing his tail for a while.If you`ve had good success with the CorBon,then stick with it.There are a number of great choices available and you can have fun shopping around.You can end up spending a lot of money too.I found what I liked,got comfortable with my choice and am a lot less confused [about that issue anyway] and antsy about the "Will this work OK?"question.

[jmurch]

As I mentioned in another thread I'm a penetration over velocity guy so I decided on 147grn JHPs. I fired everything I could get over the last month and the best combination for me of accuracy and recoil was the 147s. I much prefer the 'push' of a 147 over the 'snap' of a 124.

A saying I posted earlier from another forum I like is:

"Small bullets may expand but big bullets dont shrink."

[Bill K]

Assuming you're concerned primarily with SD/HD and not barrier penetration looking at terminal ballistics shot into denim covered ballistic gelatin will help to decide what will likely work or not work for you. I believe the CorBon DPX 115 +P does very well but uncertain about the non-DPX offering. Some 9mm HP +P do well in bare gelatin but do not expand when shot into denim covered gelatin. Also, watch what length barrel is being used to test, a shorter barrel shooting the same round may not perform as well.

[jocko]

I didn't think corbon made the dpx round in anything but +P. . That is one awesome round indeed, Hotter than a piss ant and full petal expansion every time due to the all copper Barnes bullet. Not cheap but neither is life.

[Bill K]

I didn't think corbon made the dpx round in anything but +P. . That is one awesome round indeed, Hotter than a piss ant and full petal expansion every time due to the all copper Barnes bullet. Not cheap but neither is life.

Jocko,

There are I believe two CorBon +P offerings. The OP did not say whether his 115 +P was the SD JHP offering or the DPX offering.

I have a warm place in my heart for CorBon DPX ammo. ;)

[ripley16]

I've become partial to several brands, mainly because they are reliable and I shoot them well at the range. They are the Hornady TAP round, Gold Dot 124gr. and the Winchester PDX1.

[OldLincoln]

If memory serves me right, penetrating fabric was an issue with Federal HydoShok ammo. It has a post in the center that caused the center to fill with fabric. The newer HST product penetrates fabric very well and as jmurch said, the 147 do better at this than the lighter bullets. For self defense I definitely carry +P.

[beatlesfan]

I've always been a fan of Hornady tap 147gr. Seems to shoot very well.

Sent from Tapatalk

[LaP]

The Hornady FTX rounds have that little polymer flex tip that prevents the hollowpoint from clogging up with fabric.

It runs at Muzzle Velocity: 1140 fps and Muzzle Energy: 332 ft. lbs.
While it's not a +P round, it does look good on paper.

[O'Dell]

The Hornady FTX rounds have that little polymer flex tip that prevents the hollowpoint from clogging up with fabric.

It runs at Muzzle Velocity: 1140 fps and Muzzle Energy: 332 ft. lbs.
While it's not a +P round, it does look good on paper.

It sounds like the FTX round is pre-clogged. :D

I only have one 9mm, the PM9, but I've always been partial to standard pressure HST's in 124 gr, which is what I carry. I'm not sure that I want to shoot +p's from such a small platform either for the gun's longevity or for my shooting pleasure.

[Bill K]

I believe that a steady diet of +P compared to standard pressure would indeed shorten the longevity of most pistols. I'd guess though that most who carry with +P don't feed it as a steady diet through their carry guns. I mostly see/read/hear folks shooting the carry ammo that is in their guns and then mostly switching to practice ammo (E.g. WWB) for the rest of their session with that gun. It is what I do, for the most part, with all of my carry pistols.

[Ikeo74]

Where I live in Kansas I feel safe carrying JRN bullets in 115 gr. I don't know anyone around here that can take 2 of those in the chest and continue an attack. After all it is less bullet design and more bullet placement. +p's are not needed here. :)

[Markis82]

Where I live in Kansas I feel safe carrying JRN bullets in 115 gr. I don't know anyone around here that can take 2 of those in the chest and continue an attack. After all it is less bullet design and more bullet placement. +p's are not needed here. :)
True, however when the SHTF, I doubt you can concentrate and put those hits exactly where you want. Remember, your heart rate will be pounding, your adrenaline pumping, your nerves firing, time will stand still and move at 100 mph at the same time, etc... You need a quality JHP to give you the best odds that you'll stop the attacker and a +P load will give you the velocity to make sure those bullets have enough energy to expand when they hit the target . Let's be serious. We've all heard stories where a guy didn't even know he was shot and conversely where 1 .22 shot has killed someone. Why take chances? Wise people stack the odds in their favor as much as possible.

[sharpetop]

I've ran about half a box of Federal BPLE, 115gr. +P+ JHP, through my CW9 with no issues. I've ran several self defense loads through my CW9 including HST 124gr +P, HST non-+P, Remington 115gr JHP, Gold Dot 115gr JHP, Federal 115gr JHP and can't tell a helluva lot of difference in recoil with any of them.

I doubt that many of us will pay the money to run enough +P+ or +P ammo through our guns to do any real damage other than possibly a recoil spring replacement.

I say shoot what functions in your gun and you can hit what you are aiming at.

[wyntrout]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn

[Markis82]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn
+1 Well said! That was the idea I was trying to put across.

[Ikeo74]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn
Same goes for +P+ hollowpoints, if they don't hit anything because your heart is racing and you are under great stress they will not inflict any damage on the bad guy. A miss is a miss regardless of what bullet you are shooting. I say shoot what is most accurate and functions in your gun and the one you are most confident in. Now with that said, I will most likely carry hollowpoints myself. A good reliable one that will shoot 100% of the time without any malfunctions. Those have not been determined yet for me but one thing I won't be shooting is +P or +P+ because they take away accurate shooting and positive functioning of the gun and the shooter. If you flinch and close your eyes with every shot you won't be stopping the bad guy with heavy ammo.

[Ikeo74]

Those of you on this forum that are shooting small size firearms such as the PM9 or the CM9 (plus many others) and are considering to use +P or +P+ ammunition for self defense in these guns should read and understand comepletely the information contained in this link...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
This explains exactly what the designations of +P and +P+ means in the ammunition that you may be planning to use. This information is the reason why I (IMO) think it is not nessicary and not a good idea to use this type of ammunition in small concealed handguns of any brand and type. After reading the information, if you decide to continue to use the +P ammo, at least you will know you are actually shooting. Good Luck!

[Markis82]

Those of you on this forum that are shooting small size firearms such as the PM9 or the CM9 (plus many others) and are considering to use +P or +P+ ammunition for self defense in these guns should read and understand comepletely the information contained in this link...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
This explains exactly what the designations of +P and +P+ means in the ammunition that you may be planning to use. This information is the reason why I (IMO) think it is not nessicary and not a good idea to use this type of ammunition in small concealed handguns of any brand and type. After reading the information, if you decide to continue to use the +P ammo, at least you will know you are actually shooting. Good Luck!
OK I read that. So, what is your point?

[Ikeo74]

My point is +P and +P+ is using ammo with pressures above the standard pressure level of sporting ammunition. When you push the pressure to the limits or over the limits you are increasing the chances of blowing up and wearing out your handguns, flinching and a number of other things without achieving much, if any additional benefits from the extra velosity the round produces. When standard loads do the job, why push the limits of pressure? Those of you that think you need more from the bullet might benefit more by going up in caliber to achieve more stopping power. You can safely get the extra stopping power in a larger bullet. Example, if you are shooting a .380, go to 9mm. If you are using a 9mm go to a .40 or 10 mm, a 40 to a .45, to a 41 mag, to a 44 mag, to a .458, etc. When using any +p or +P+ amm of any caliber you are going above the "safe" recommended pressures.

[MikeyKahr]

When using any +p or +P+ amm of any caliber you are going above the "safe" recommended pressures.

Don't forget that in this case, the manufacturer Kahr states the increase in pressure is okay (+p is fine, so says the Kahr manual and web site). True, they say +p+ is no go - but they say +p is good to go. I go with the manufacturer's suggestion.

[Ikeo74]

Don't forget that in this case, the manufacturer Kahr states the increase in pressure is okay (+p is fine, so says the Kahr manual and web site). True, they say +p+ is no go - but they say +p is good to go. I go with the manufacturer's suggestion.
What Kahr is saying is that the gun will shoot +P, they are not saying they recommend you do. Compare it to a new car with a speedomiter that says 160 MPH, it doesn't mean they expect you to drive it that fast every time you leave the house.;)

[wyntrout]

There's a big difference. Kahr says "The Kahr pistol is rated to +P." Car manufacturers don't "rate" their cars to 160 MPH because the speedometer is labeled that high.

Modern pistols must be proofed to 130% or 140% of SAAMI or NATO standard pressures. +P is just 10% more... still a SAAMI rating. There is no SAAMI rating of +P+ and I really see no need for that +18% +P+. THAT is hard on your gun.

Older guns weren't necessarily manufactured to those standards and some are known to be unsafe for +P. The Kahrs are safe for +P, but you're on your own with +P+.

+P is a good way to get enough performance... velocity... out of a short-barreled pistol. Bullets are designed to perform between certain parameters... minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and not so fast that the bullet breaks up too much.

For most calibers, a 5" barrel is used for the testing and on that are based the ballistics and performance data. If you fire the same ammo in a 3" barrel, the hollow point or expanding bullets may not reach the design envelope and fail to expand properly. Using +P can get the bullet into the design performance envelope.

I use the Speer Short Barrel version of Gold Dots in my PM9 and PM45... +P for the 9mm and standard for the .45... the latter has plenty performance. The SB's are designed for proper performance in short barrels with different powder and bullet design.

I don't shoot a lot of +P... just refreshing my carry ammo after confirming reliable function in my pistol. I use standard FMJ... good and inexpensive ammo, for the range. I stay away from steel-cased stuff because of the extra wear from STEEL over soft copper or aluminum.

The defensive ammo I carry is Law Enforcement-type and has a proven track record with major law enforcement agencies. I don't need the "designer" versions with extra light bullets traveling at hyper velocities, or with "pre-filled" cavities.:D

JMHO.

Wynn:)

[JFootin]

The article says "+P ammunition, however, is externally identical to standard ammunition of its caliber. This was done when the ammunition manufacturers lowered the pressure of their standard rounds (1972). +P ammunition was designed to replicate the performance of what had been standard pressure cartridges."

It looks to me that +p is just getting back to normal.

[Markis82]

the article says "+p ammunition, however, is externally identical to standard ammunition of its caliber. this was done when the ammunition manufacturers lowered the pressure of their standard rounds (1972). +p ammunition was designed to replicate the performance of what had been standard pressure cartridges."

it looks to me that +p is just getting back to normal.
+1, +p

[TominCA]

I sort of gave up thinking about it and load Black Hills "extra power" whatever that is, it's not +p and in my dry phone book test it did great! I like Black Hills because its 50 to a box and cheap enough so that you can shoot a whole box at the range every now and then!

[HadEmAll]

About 9BPLE...............................

The Federal 9BPLE (115 grain +P+) I bought, shot, and chronographed in the past 3 years was pretty feeble compared to comparable Winchester and Speer 115 grain +P+ ammo. I haven't shot any of the Corbon 115 grain +P in recent years, but it is at least as hot as the Win and Speer loads.

The Federal 9BPLE only registered 1255 fps out of my Beretta 90two (almost 5" barrel) compared to 1375 fps for the Speer, and 1355 fps for the Winchester.

More on Kahr topic, out of my Kahr PM9, I am getting 1217 fps with the Win Ranger 115 grain +P+, 1223 fps with the Speer Gold Dot 115 grain +P+, and only 1144 fps with the Federal 9BPLE.

I had some primer flattening indications with the Speer 115 grain +P+ in the PM9, and have ceased using it. I use it in my sigpro 2022, which is bulletproof.

I don't have any pressure indications with the Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ in the PM9, and that is what I carry in it. I confine my shooting with in in the PM9 to an occasional magazine full. I like it, and will continue to use it. I monitor my barrel for peening.

I've also chronographed the Winchester 127 grain +P+ out of my PM9, but it only gets 1120 fps, and I don't think that's enough velocity to get that stout bullet to open up properly.

I don't believe the the Federal 9BPLE is loaded like it allegedly used to be. It sure isn't a "1300 fps load" anymore. Maybe that's why it was being sold all over the Internet at $17 a box in recent years.

If you like it and get a deal on it, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in my PM9. I don't think it really qualifies as a +P+ round. I had no primer flattening, or ejection pattern that would make me think it's even remotely in the +P+ realm. If you do, I'd chronograph it as soon as possible. They could always take it back to it's previous loading, but I think Federal is off and running with the HST line, and isn't going to change anything in the 9BPLE.

If you use it, just be sure you don't flinch and close your eyes with every shot.:rolleyes: I manage not to.

[jocko]

if u gotta have +P+ in ur 9mm then buy a 40 cal and just be done with messing around..

[ltxi]

That's a really good point. .40s have a sharp pressure curve that give me, personally, a problem in small, lightweight pistols. That's why I carry a PM9...with std pressure ammunition. Seems to me that 9mm +P+ just couples the disadvantage with none of benefits of the larger diameter, not to mention stressing the gun.

Come to think of it, duh, that's why the .40 S&W was invented in the first place.

[HadEmAll]

That's not even close to why the .40 was invented.

A brief outline:

The FBI, who had been perfectly happy with their Winchester 115 grain Silvertip standard pressure loads out of S&W semiautos, got into a famous and infamous gunfight with 2 bank robbers. Due to really bad tactics on the FBI's part, the bank robbers killed and wounded several agents before being put out of action. The FBI blamed ONE 115 grain JHP that has gone through one of the bank robber's arm before stopping an inch away from the heart. They had to put the blame on something or somebody. They blamed penetration.

They then adapted the subsonic 147 grain JHP load, which had been invented by OLIN ONLY to use in the silenced versions of military sub guns.

Unfortunately, a lot of law enforcement agencies, who were transitioning at the time from revolvers to semiautos, followed the FBI's illfated move to the 147 grain 9mm load. The 147s at the time were famous for lack of stopping power, overpenetration, and making formerly relibable pistols unreliable. Therefore the 9mm got even a worse rap than before.

Then the FBI made their standard issue pistol a S&W 10mm. Hardkicking, and due to more female agents in the field, hard to hold due to grip size.

NOW the .40 S&W came to be. A 10mm round with a reduced case and powder charge. Called the .40 short and weak by detractors, it has become the predominant law enforcement round.

I like the hell out of the .40. I've got 8 of them, from full-sized down to the PM40.

I don't have any use for standard pressure 9mm loads. I've had many of them over the years. But I like some of the pistols made in 9mm. So I buy good ones, that I know will stand up to limited +P+ service. If they ever wear out, I'll get another one.

I'm not the only one out there buying 9mm +P+. You do what you want, and I'll continue to do the same.

[wyntrout]

The K9's and the K40's have substantially beefier barrel shrouds and look sturdy enough for +P+, but the PM9 and others are much lighter in that area.

I use +P 9mm for defense and the .40 does seem to have at least that much kick, even with my ported P40, but certainly not uncontrollable. I'm glad that I finally added a .40 and look forward to carrying mine.

I weighed the P40 with 6+1... 24.2 ounces and my PM45 weighs 23.85 with 5+1 loaded. The .40 certainly has enough firepower!

Wynn:)


Barrels:
P380
PM9
K9
PM45

[ltxi]

I well know the history. I was speaking metaphorically. I use std pressure in featherweight arms because it's served me well and I'm good with that at double taps and dealing with multiple targets. Perhaps a personal failing, but extremely high pressure/sharp pressure curve ammunition just throws me off under those conditions.

[wyntrout]

Actually, looking at the pictures, the PM9 barrel shroud might be a hair thicker, just not as long as the K9's.

Wynn:)

[HadEmAll]

Well, there's no doubt that I'm the one doing the technically wro.......wro.........."non-Kahr sanctioned" thing by using +P+ in my PM9.

Feel free to accept that and move on. I am wro............"non-Kahr sanctioned".

But I'm personally willing and able to deal with both the benefits as I see it, and the penalties for doing so .

What +P+ is doing for me in the PM9 is bringing the 115 bullet up to the same velocity it gets out of a 4" barrel in standard pressure form.

The Winchester Ranger +P+ 115 grain load is merely emulating the performance of the Corbon 115 grain +P load. Actually, I'm not sure which came first, but the Winchester round gave great service to the Illinois State Police back in the day. They gave up it when they, along with hundreds of other Law enforcement departments transitioned to newer pistols and the .40. I don't know when the Corbon load came along, but I find the Corbon to be a shorter than normal round, and don't prefer it in this particular load.

As far as the +P+ versus +P, who's to say who's piezoelectric transducers are calibrated better or interpreted more accurately? I know how that instrumentation stuff goes. I did it for 35 years. I don't dismiss the difference, but also think the lines can be blurred. And I'm not advocating anybody else ignore or try to interpret things to their own point of view. I generally respect manufacturer's guidelines.

By the same token, there are "bullshot" guidelines that come down the pike sometimes. When Ford for example made 5W20 the recommended oil for the 2003 F150 I bought, I did a little research and found that was only because Ford was mandated by the gubmnt to increase the gas mileage of their product line by x amount. Using oil with less viscosity was their solution. I doubted they gave a corporate damn about how long the engines might last with the thinner oil. I dismissed their recommendations and have been using 5W30 for the last 121,000 miles. Time may have shown the 5W20 to be okay, but for me, it was not.

If a round with the factory springs doesn't eject a crazy distance, and the primer isn't flattened or extruded into the firing pin hole, then I think it's within the engineered capability of that pistol. I knew when I bought the PM9 I was not going to be putting thousands of rounds through it. Even punching paper with standard pressure FMJ.

Anyway.......................

The Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ round in my Beretta 90two's almost 5" barrel gets 1355 fps for 471 ft/lbs.

In the sigpro 2022's 4" barrel it gets 1320 fps for 420 ft/lbs.

In the PM9's 3/5" barrel, it's "down" to 1217fps/380 ft/lbs, still performing a little better than the standard pressure Ranger 115 JHP out of a 4" barrel.

In the Beretta PX4SC's 3" barrel, it's down to 1205/373.

It really isn't the rip-snorting round people are making it out to be. It ejects a little farther than the Blazer 115 grain FMJ I'm using for hole-punching in paper.

As far as recoil, my PM40 with 155 grain JHPs recoils a bunch more than my PM9 with the Ranger 115 grain +P+.

And the Ruger LCR with full-house .357 magnums put them both to shame. This one actually hurts.

Everybody has their own recoil threshold. Nobody can tell somebody else that they can't handle the recoil of X round and Y pistol just because the first somebody can't. They can state it as opinion, but it sure isn't a fact.

I might seek out some of the Speer 124 grain +P short barreled stuff just to see what I think of it. And I am just enough getting over how bad the 147 grain 9mm load used to suck to think about trying some of today's better ones in the PM9. But for now, Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ JHPs are what my PM9 is full of.