Got the .223 / 5.56 carbine itch

[Rainman48314]

but looking at some pistol calibers too.

Here's the field so far:

Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm Glock under $400
Kel-Tec SU16C about $600
Hi-Point 9 or 45 Auto around $360
Ruger Mini-14 Tactical about $690
Beretta Neos Carbine kit ( I already have the pistol) $249 or less
Beretta CX4 about $680+

My interests:

Fun factor
multi-purrpose (range, SHTF)
ammo costs
reliability
accuracy
availability

What do you guys think?

[LMT42]

I'm not a big fan if pistol calibers in carbines, so I'd go with a 5.56. However, a decent 5.56 carbine is expensive and the ammo is also expensive. I've got over $2,500.00 in mine between purchase price, optics and accessories.

Frankly, if you're concerned about money, I'd suggest you buy a .22 semi-auto rifle, if you don't have one already; dirt cheap ammo and light to carry. While not a large caliber rifle, it still has a wide range of uses. Plenty of people have been sent to their graves by the diminutive .22-lr bullet. Sometimes I wish I'd purchased a .22 instead of my 5.56.

[Bawanna]

If its fun factor your seek, check out the GSG carbines. My son has the one that looks like the MP5 and it's just a blast to play with. 22 so it's relatively cheap to shoot. Lots of toys to hang on it or fun right out of the box.

I just sold my Match Target HBar. Just never shot it, it's like the 380 of rifles in 223 and I really want a Scout Squad 308. Doubt I'll shoot it any more than the 223 AR but when I do it will be meaningful. As usual the AR money went into wheelchair batteries and a few other necessities but I still squeaked out an MRI 1911 (enroute) so the inventory is still holding.

[Barth]

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3682
http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=266

[Bawanna]

That looks plenty fun to play with. I love the cord wrap on the magazines, stylish and functional.

[Barth]

That looks plenty fun to play with. I love the cord wrap on the magazines, stylish and functional.

It's not mine.
Just a suggestion.

If I can't carry it, I'm mostly not interested.

Got a tactical belt carrier for my three 22 round mags
that fit my EXO G27 though - LOL!

Also, just ordered 200 rounds of Speer LE 155 grain GDHPs to load the mags.

[ripley16]

I've had a lot of fun with this Beretta CX4. These come in several calibers, are totally ambidexterous, take pistol mags so also having a pistol to share mags with is pretty neat. This one is a 9mm to go with this 92fs Vertec. In this case both pistol and carbine were a modest $1000 total.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/NewStorm008.jpg

I have several 5.56 carbines, a Colt and a Stag, which are great fun, but the CX4 is as much fun for much less money.

[Alfonse]

the Sub 2000 looks like the most fun, if you are fine without adding a dot or scope sight. It folds, can lock and can use several types of mags. You have to have the pistol to go with a pistol caliber carbine. If you have to buy it, the cost of the pistol and carbine are about the cost of a .223 carbine.

PC carbines are fun, and are pretty inexpensive to shoot in 9mm. The range is somewhat limited. That's okay for home defense or zombie attacks.

The Hi-Point is a super bargain, and can accept all types of sights. But, it doesn't share magazines with anything and is somewhat limited in capacity.

I just can't part with too much money for a casual shooter. I have an older Ruger carbine and pistol and have a great time with it. The Lone Wolf and Beretta look like fun, but cost more than the Kel Tec or Hi Point.

Accuracy wise, I can't find much difference between any of the pistol caliber carbines I've shot.

If I was buying something today, it would probably be the Hi-Point just because my eyes are getting challenging for iron (or plastic) sights. But, that Sub 2000 looks like a blast...

[rholmes69]

If you have the ar bug, you can build one for $700 or less and have a nice gun. Just a thought....

[Rainman48314]

Any links to AR15 setups? I'll build, but only if I can get a functioning gun from two main pieces. I don't mind adding a light or red dot or sling but I don't want to be installing a trigger group or converting a bolt or any gunsmithing stuff. Thanks

[rholmes69]

Building an AR lower is exceptionally easy. There are a couple youtube videos that are well watched and break it into two parts. Take 10 mins and watch them. If it seems not fun to do, then you can always buy an assembled lower. Here is a link to one of the vids and a link to my favorite supplier for AR parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_Vkb2UB1w (you don't have to have the vise block; typically the only tool you might not have is the punches)

I know it says out of stock, but they get all their stuff in quite regularly and there are a lot of other options too. Their lowers are made by AeroPrecision, a very well respected company if you do some searches on them.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-build-kits.php

[Rainman48314]

It's not mine.
Just a suggestion.

If I can't carry it, I'm mostly not interested.

Got a tactical belt carrier for my three 22 round mags
that fit my EXO G27 though - LOL!

Also, just ordered 200 rounds of Speer LE 155 grain GDHPs to load the mags.Love the look of this weapon.

[Rainman48314]

Building an AR lower is exceptionally easy. There are a couple youtube videos that are well watched and break it into two parts. Take 10 mins and watch them. If it seems not fun to do, then you can always buy an assembled lower. Here is a link to one of the vids and a link to my favorite supplier for AR parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_Vkb2UB1w (you don't have to have the vise block; typically the only tool you might not have is the punches)

I know it says out of stock, but they get all their stuff in quite regularly and there are a lot of other options too. Their lowers are made by AeroPrecision, a very well respected company if you do some searches on them.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-build-kits.php
This just isn't for me. I don't have the punch set or even a vise and workbench. My range has a ready built Rock River Arms lower for $299. It looks like the upper in Daniel Defense will be about $850-$999.

I'm going to check out a completely ready S&W on sale at Gander Mountain. It has an EOTECH 512 sight on it, $1299

[WMD]

I picked up a Bushmaster "DCM" gun a while back. It is a purpose built competition gun. It is made for competition at Camp Perry. The gun (with lead option installed in buttstock) weighs 14 lbs. At 100 yards the holes overlap and I am not using match grade ammo. This gun is very accurate.

You should be able to find a used one of these guns for around $$900 or so. Maybe less.

[apdturbo]

i have a keltec sub 2000 on my list, then again the ruger sr556 is on that same list.

[johnh]

Build an AR. You are nearly there budget wise if you are looking at the Mini-14. Here are some numbers for you:

Stripped lower $100 (you may spend more or less depending on your dealer)
Lower parts kit $70
M4 Buttstock assembly $85 (can do cheaper if you shop)
DSA Upper $325
Bolt Carrier/Charging Handle $140
Sights $85 (can do cheaper if you shop)
Magazines $10 (buy in bulk)

So you are at $815 for an M4 configuration AR with sights of your choice and one mag. To me that is the basic carbine that you need to get you going with the caliber, and you can accessorize until the end of time. Down the road if you want to shoot 9mm from it, just change mags, uppers, get a mag block, and maybe swap out the hammer depending on your upper. Not much to it, and you are into a dual caliber gun. Personally I see no need for the 9mm if you are not trying to share calibers with a pistol. 5.56 ammo, correctly chosen, is a great defensive caliber even at short range. I keep VMax in my home defense mags. Mind you 9mm ARs are fun, and I have thought about them from time to time, but I have piles of 5.56 ammo and mags. I buy both in bulk, and just don't need to add another configuration to support in my AR family.

I also did not mention that it is a lot of fun building ARs, and very, very addictive... :)

[yqtszhj]

I picked up a Bushmaster "DCM" gun a while back. It is a purpose built competition gun. It is made for competition at Camp Perry. The gun (with lead option installed in buttstock) weighs 14 lbs. At 100 yards the holes overlap and I am not using match grade ammo. This gun is very accurate.

You should be able to find a used one of these guns for around $$900 or so. Maybe less.

+1 on the bushmaster. I got the A3 upper (has the removable handle), 20 inch barrel and standard stock. Buds has it $879 Shipped. Practice a little and learn trajectory (that was fun to learn for me) and you can break clay targets at 100 yards all day long with iron sights. When I practiced more than I do now, if I could see it at 100 yards I could hit it with the iron sights. And that was with PMC ammo I got on sale.

I put a scope on it a little later and now.... truly AMAZING! :D They are fun and Cabelas just had American Golden Eagle .223 for 5.25 a box. I stocked up on that stuff.

[1radman]

Kel-tec sub 2000- $299 (don't pay $400 for a stock Sub 2000!)
3 Glock 33rnd mags- $90
Other minor add ons-$50 (sling,butt stock extender,bolt tube cover,charging handle cover)
Cheap,zombie killin',
accurate,reliable,
emergency bug out
folding thingamagig- $Priceless!$!
You can even accessorize rails and sighting options now, although most sight set-ups inhibit or change the folding capability in some way. Check out th Ket-tec owners group site...alot of good info from good people.
http://www.thektog.org/

[1radman]

Oh I forgot; there's also a Kel-tec SU16c in "the family". At under 5 lbs it's accurate and reliable with top rail for sights. Chambered for 5.56/223. Butt stock underfolds and can fire folded pistol-like! Plenty of accessories available. Then again, a high end S&W AR like my bro-in law's would surely be sweet.
Like I said to my wife at the last gun show..."Honey, can I get one of each?"

[mr surveyor]

from the list in the original post, I've had the KT S2K (Beretta grip), a "181-" model Mini 14 (good for both .223 and 5.56) and a CX4 Storm (Beretta 92 grip). All were "fun" for throwing rounds down range, but the Mini 14, even with it's pie plate accuracy, is the only one I wish I hadn't parted with. But, from a practical standpoint I had no real need for a carbine with 2 moa accuracy.

At some point in the ammunition budget just being able to squirt rounds down range just isn't quite as satisfying as being able to put those rounds exactly where you want them.

(I do regret trading the KT S2K though, just because it folded into such a compact package)


surv

[MikeyKahr]

Kel-tec sub 2000- $299 (don't pay $400 for a stock Sub 2000!)

I can't find a KT sub2000 anywhere around my parts (brick&mortar) for $300. Best I've seen online is $280 at Bud's but usually not in stock. Where do you find it in stock at $299? Gunbrokers usually running $350 and over.


...but the Mini 14, even with it's pie plate accuracy, is the only one I wish I hadn't parted with.

I do regret trading the KT S2K though, just because it folded into such a compact package)...

Are you sure you don't miss the Beretta too, mr surv!?

[les strat]

I could go for an SKS. I wish I had bought one back in the 90's for less than $100. They're all above $300 now.

[mr surveyor]

I can't find a KT sub2000 anywhere around my parts (brick&mortar) for $300. Best I've seen online is $280 at Bud's but usually not in stock. Where do you find it in stock at $299? Gunbrokers usually running $350 and over.



Are you sure you don't miss the Beretta too, mr surv!?


Like the KT S2K, the Beretta had it's own share of "cool factor". Definately higher quality than the S2K, but still a 9mm pistol round carbine. For defendinig the "estate", I figured the pistol round would be fine since my longest property defense shot would most likely be less than 150 feet. Putting a pencil to it, the double ought buck with twelve .32 cal balls traveling 1300 fps on a single trigger squeeze made a lot more sense. The 9mm just seems to have no practical value for me on HD, SD or hunting, and the expense of shooting it as a fun gun ended up taking ammo from my pistol practice.

give me an unlimited ammo budget and I'd probably keep all of them:D

surv

[Rainman48314]

Went crazy today! Bought a S&W M&P 15 in 5.56 with Eotech 512 sight. Found a used Sig 1911 4" barell .45ACP and put it on lay away.

Will be selling a PM9 in silver with NS, three mags and a COMPTAC CTAC Minotaur holster by night.

[Bawanna]

We've created a monster. Selling toys to fund other toys in a classic rob Peter to pay Paul scenario.

Next he'll be robbing money from the grocery fund jar to buy more toys. Where will it ever end.

Two of the guys here have the S&W M&P 15's. Very nice.

[Rainman48314]

We've created a monster. Selling toys to fund other toys in a classic rob Peter to pay Paul scenario.

Next he'll be robbing money from the grocery fund jar to buy more toys. Where will it ever end.

Two of the guys here have the S&W M&P 15's. Very nice.
I think of it as in training for political office. ;)

[Rainman48314]

Selling toys to fund other toys in a classic rob Peter to pay Paul scenario.


I sold my Ruger LC9 this morning. Threw in a leather/kydex holster and an extra unused mag. Couldn't convince the buyer to go practice a little, especially with the new mag. He won't use a holster either. Likes rubberbands around the grip. His previous occassional carry gun was a .25. I've got work to do.

[gagnejs8]

I also have the AR itch. I live behind enemy lines in MA so I'm a bit limited. No flash hisses or collapsable stocks.

This would be my first AR. Anyone have suggestions/good experiences to share?

[Rainman48314]

I also have the AR itch. I live behind enemy lines in MA so I'm a bit limited. No flash hisses or collapsable stocks.

This would be my first AR. Anyone have suggestions/good experiences to share?S&W isn't going anywhere and they have a lifetime warranty. My salesman is a former Corrections Officer and also has a SW M&P, slightly different model.

[johnh]

Enjoy that AR! The Smiths I have handled looked very nice. I am sure it will shoot very well for you. Now you have an excuse to buy all sorts of accessories.... ;)

[johnh]

I also have the AR itch. I live behind enemy lines in MA so I'm a bit limited. No flash hisses or collapsable stocks.

This would be my first AR. Anyone have suggestions/good experiences to share?

This is a really good time to get into ARs as there are many quality vendors making stuff for them. I do some work for M&A and DSA, so most of my guns are built with their stuff. I have had zero issues, and am not just saying that because of the affiliation. I do not work for folks that do not make good equipment.

I have also had good luck with our local Missouri company CMMG. They are nice folks based on my first hand chats with them at gun shows.

I tend to favor carbine length guns for the light weight. I have some shoulder injuries and tire fast holding up heavy guns. A 16" barrel will do 90% of what you want. I have mostly M4 profile barrels as that is what I found good deals on. I would not worry too much about that unless you want "the look". The step in the barrel means nothing to us civilians. If you want accuracy, there are some good deals out there on stainless non-bull barrels. Again, I don't want the extra weight of the bull barrel. I like a 1/7 or 1/8 twist--the latter for the stainless precision stuff.

You will want a flat top receiver and then add BUIS of your choice. I like the Magpul sights as they are rugged, simple, and not terribly expensive. I also love their furniture if you don't plan installing a rail system. The MOE grips are extremely comfortable. Then get some Magpul mags. I have a pile of them and they are 100% reliable. The dust cover for storage is handy too. Of course not sure you can have them in Mass... :(

Ammo is pretty affordable right now. I tend to stockpile the green tip 62 grain stuff when I find deals. For home defense, I use Fiocchi 50 gr. V-Max. It blows up in gelatin, and is quite accurate. My home defense AR has a 1/9 twist for the lighter bullets.

Lots of neat options. Shop around and have fun getting your first AR!

[gagnejs8]

Anyone have issues with Bushmasters? There is a Mass legal one on sale at the LGS. It's a 1:9 twist, and only has 1 year warranty. I'd prefer a 1:7 with lifetime. Leaning towards a BCM but again, need MA legal.....