High quality firearm? [Archive]

popgoestheweasel

09-24-2011, 09:52 PM

Don't we all want a firearm/handgun that is of high quality? We certainly want them to go bang when we pull the trigger and we hate when our auto loaders fail to feed, jam, fail to extract, etc. But, we also want to feel a sense of pride of ownership and craftsmanship in our pistols. Perhaps we show our close friends or family member our prized handgun. Perhaps we recommend a particular handgun and/or manufacturer to others. Perhaps some handgun owners join a chat forum and weigh-in on a question like "what is the best".

Well, you've got the idea....so NOW, tell me, specifically, what makes kahr a high quality handgun. Is it the fit, finish, materials, durability, reliability, accuracy? What EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY can you site that would convince someone that Kahr makes a high quality firearm? No 'because I said so', no generalities, and remember that opinions are like (ahem). So, let's talk technically....what is it about Kahr that makes their pistols better (in terms of quality) than other leading makers? Try to support your case with specific facts and comparisons. I know there has to be some PM9 fanboys (or insert your favorite kahr) in here who say it is *the best* on the market. So here's you chance. Back it up! Why is Kahr "high quality" ?

TucsonMTB

09-25-2011, 10:34 AM

Kahr pistols, at least the PM and CM series, are remarkably small compared to other offerings in the same caliber.

Chuck54

09-25-2011, 10:44 AM

If the person is friend enough to ask about my Kahr pistols I just let them shoot my pistols and decide for themselves if Kahr is the correct pistol for them.

I'm very happy with mine but they may not be for everybody.

apdturbo

09-25-2011, 10:45 AM

kahrs are quality because they are built with quality parts, the first thing i noticed when i picked up a pm9 was the rear cover plate on the back of the slide. Its metal!!!!! sounds lame i know but glocks are plastic, xd's are plastic. also in the actual plastic/poly frame kahr has a metal skeleton molded in with guide rails that groove into the slide. i've never seen another polymer pistol that actually has a metal skeletal system for added rigidness and support while cycling(not sure if kahr is the only pistol man. to do this or not). plus there is no slop in a kahr, the slide mating with the frame is very tight, and well fitting. just some quality things that stood out to me upon first inspection that lead to a purchase.

jmurch

09-25-2011, 10:53 AM

I'm a fairly new Kahr owner. I bought my MK9 about two months ago without really researching it alot other than I knew what they go for online and the price was fantastic. Not really the best criteria for buying a handgun (or anything for that matter) but it worked out.

The top three things that this gun has going for it over all of the other guns I own and have owned is size, caliber in the small size (I shoot 147grn bullets in a very small MK9 package) and most important to me reliability.

From the time I got the gun I have put about 500 or so rounds thru it with not a single failure of any kind. I have mixed all kinds of crap in the magazine and never had a single issue. The trigger is amazing after a few hundred rounds to me it's almost like a long single action.

Until I bought this Kahr I was exclusivley a Sig owner (except for a G17 for competition). I had a 238 as my small gun that I got rid of because it was not reliable at all and I have heard the same story from other 238 owners. I still have Sigs and my winter time daily carry is a 220. Reliability is the single most important factor to me. I don't really consider accuracy in a 7 yard gun.

Indigo

09-25-2011, 11:41 AM

To each his own but I prefer form as much as function. The P/K/CW series, even PM 45 has almost ideal esthetic proportions including full grip and being thin. Beretta, double stack Glocks, desert eagle, stuff like that look like toys to me. The P/K/CW to me is just an instant classic today on par with the 1911 as far as what a gun should look and feel like. That's not meant to put down anyone else's favorites they may work great just my personal preference.

Popeye

09-25-2011, 11:53 AM

First of all I don't remember anyone saying they were the best on the market. How would anyone know if they haven't shot a couple hunderd rounds through every pistol in it's class. However if you take a good long look at other pistols and compare them to Kahrs you'll see why so many people are so fond of Kahr pistols. If I still have to explain it any farther than that I'm afraid you wouldn't understand.

OldLincoln

09-25-2011, 12:03 PM

An analogy.... You want a car to get you where you want to go reliably every time. Most cars will do that most of the time, but a few are known for high quality design and manufacture. Think of a low end cheap car vs a much more expensive BMW or insert your high end choice. Either will get you there, but which would you bet your life on. I contend the Kahr is the BMW quality in design.

Next come the characteristics you desire in a handgun for conceal carry. Most want lightweight, big punch and small in size. Kahr has filled that requirement very well for most here.

So you have the match of concealability, punch and BMW quality in the Kahr. That's why I have mine and wish I had at least one more.

mightymouse

09-25-2011, 12:07 PM

I like my Kahr. Too many loose ends, rough edges, slightly misfitting pieces, out the door to call it high quality as this should reflect in the end workmanship. Great once you've spent some time with the sanding block, files, flex shaft etc. Its nice, tight, and reliable, but no one sweat the details.
My .40 Beretta's workmanship, fit finish, MAGs, action like oiled glass on glass are impeccable. Every detail, seam, line, and component integration was carefully thought out.

TheTman

09-25-2011, 12:23 PM

I'd say it's the trigger nice and smooth. Best one in the DAO world.

Bawanna

09-25-2011, 01:12 PM

The first one I laid eyes on was an early K9 that one of the detectives had and I was mildly interested in it upon initial observation and handling. When I took the slide off and looked at it I was knocked over how pretty it was. The machining on that slide and frame were phenomonel. I knew I had to have one at that point.

It was so clean and not a bur or a machine mark left anywhere.

I'm still impressed with the slides and metal, not so much on the tupperware part but I'm still a Daniel Boone in a Rambo world and trying to accept this space age material. I like steel and wood but I wouldn't part with my PM45 for a Giant Redwood tree.

Barth

09-25-2011, 01:27 PM

Kahr arguably makes one of the very smallest 40 cal auto loaders on the market.
The MK40 Elite is like a Swiss watch in terms of fit and finish.
Mine came from the factory looking like it came straight from the custom shop.
Truly a functional work of art I’ll cherish the rest of my life.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo14/8f/4c/f51735d6c7ff__1315212311000.jpghttps://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo02/af/9d/f452d24315bd__1310177373000.jpeg

O'Dell

09-25-2011, 02:03 PM

When I bought my first Kahr, a CW9, five years ago I was actually looking for something else. However, the clean look and simple design of the Kahr in the showcase caught my eye. I've always considered this a look of quality. Five Kahrs and five years later, I've experienced nothing to change my mind. They have all done exactly what they were suppose to do and have not given one problem. Is there a better definition of quality?

popgoestheweasel

09-25-2011, 02:07 PM

wow, some really well thought comments. i'm somewhat surprised at the specificity. i'm really liking this forum. i'm wondering what most would say in this forum when asked to name 3 of the very top handgun (pistol) manufacturers in terms of overall quality. I thank you all for your input as I am learning a great deal.

Popeye

09-25-2011, 04:18 PM

Weasel, How about you give us your three.:rolleyes: Then we'll see if we agree!

Chuck54

09-25-2011, 04:25 PM

A police Sgt. said I ruined his day and was going to cost him some money ...... that was after he fired about fifty rounds from my PM9. He liked the accuracy and the smooth trigger.

He was lucky I didn't have the T9 on the range that day ...... it is smoother more accurate and feels better in the hand; but I guess he was looking for an off duty weapon.

Both pistols go bang every time and have handled all ammo tried in them.

Russ

09-25-2011, 04:55 PM

I fired and stove piped the $650 Kimber Solo. I purchased the CM9 for $399. There is not another pocket 9 mm at that price point with the features found in the CM9. When you study the cam system that prevents the firearm from discharging until the trigger is pulled provides me the confidence to pocket carry.

popgoestheweasel

09-25-2011, 05:43 PM

the weasel really hasn't had much exposure to a variety of handguns. anything i would suggest as a 'top 3' handgun manufacturer would be baseless. i have a 1967ish browning high-power that was made in belgium and i wouldn't trade it for another gun on the planet.....but that's hardly useful information for someone who is looking to buy today.

i have some thoughts on a couple of custom 1911's as being a very high quality such as ed brown and les baer, but i couldn't give you any specific reasons for my belief. just a gut feeling.

i was merely asking you experts so it could direct my attention toward my next purchase.

jeepster09

09-25-2011, 06:01 PM

I'd say it's the trigger nice and smooth. Best one in the DAO world.

I dissagree, I think the Para Ordnance LDA has a better trigger.

TucsonMTB

09-25-2011, 07:00 PM

I disagree, I think the Para Ordnance LDA has a better trigger.
Yep! Jeepster nailed it. The Para Ordnance LDA (Light Double Action) trigger is hugely better, in my estimation. :behindsofa:

Barth

09-25-2011, 07:01 PM

I LOVE a good trigger on a handgun.
Most of mine have, or are getting, trigger jobs.

My experiences so far -
Never tried the LDA.

My P239 is smooth as glass.
But the Sig Armorer says he can improve it.
And I haven’t got her back yet to see.

My MK40 is glassy smooth too.
Almost Feels like a S&W revolver with an action job.
I have two of those.
My 629 Mountain Gun trigger has to be pulled to be believed.

The strangest thing of all is my new EXO G27.
I've shot several Glocks before (G19/9mm, G20/10mm and G30/45).
The EXO feels different.
No creep, no stacking, very clean light break - with the factory trigger?!?
Even feels like a short reset?
I was going to go with a Rocket 3.5.
But after shooting it I’m leaving it alone.
Don’t know if Glock, Talo, Fail Zero or Ameriglo
tuned the trigger on this special edition - but WOW!
It feels like a short crisp 4/5 lb 1911 to me.

Right now, today, as strange as it sounds, I’m loving the EXO trigger the best.
And nobody is going to lay a hand on my EXO - LOL!

Update: I've emailed Talo to get an exact count on the number of 2011 EXO G27
with Ameriglo I-Dot Pro sights will be produced.
But so far no response...

CJB

09-25-2011, 07:02 PM

Kahr makes a good gun.

I've lived with Sig P210's... they're really nice.

Ditto every matched Luger I've owned has been outstanding as far as quality goes.

Hell... even broomhandle Mauser's were made really nicely.

There's more than quality that makes a gun great. Its gotta shoot, and have function and purpose, and do that function and purpose elegantly and efficiently. Kahr gets it done. They've got a niche market, a big niche but a niche... and they do a good job.

jmurch

09-25-2011, 07:04 PM

Scoundrel

09-25-2011, 07:50 PM

I bought the CM9 because it was nearly as small and light as a 380, but fires 9mm.
It is skinny which makes it easy to conceal.
It doesn't have a lot of pointy bits to dig into my ribs or pelvic bone when carrying it.

It is a bonus that it shoots more accurate groups than two other 9mm pistols I have.
The sights work better for me than the sights on the other 9mm pistols I have - it's clearer to me exactly where to put the sight to hit small targets at a distance.

Looking at the overall design, the CM9 looks like someone put a lot of thought into how to make a gun look nice/sexy, which, whether it "should" be or not, is a major factor in handgun owner satisfaction.

Looking at the components inside, it is clear that a major engineering effort went into it, instead of slapping some pieces of metal together and shaping them into something that goes bang.

My Astra A75L is rough around the edges, but functional. It's not very accurate, but it does the job. It will never be something to show my friends proudly, but it was a good value and I'll own it forever.

My Ruger P95 (which was not a planned purchase, it just happened one day), looks like someone collected some leftover bits from a Harley assembly line and hammered them into a gun shape. It shoots that way too. I wouldn't shed a tear if I had to surrender it to the police after defending myself with it.

My Kahr CM9 is the pride of my (small) collection, and my primary carry weapon. It will make me sad if I ever have to surrender it. I'd probably have to go out and buy another one right away.

popgoestheweasel

09-26-2011, 12:01 PM

Weasel,
"i was merely asking you experts so it could direct my attention toward my next purchase."

What is your goal for your next purchase? A gun to carry, target practice, personal satifaction that you own 'the best' ?

To me these 3 criterea pretty much mean 3 different gun purchases.

jmurch,

i can see where you'd say 3 different gun purchases. i'm slowly coming to terms there are sacrifices to be made if you're going to ccw. don't we all want what we want? as for my goals, one of the first is to become proficient with the gun i intend to purchase/carry. this will require some practice/range time so it has to be somewhat comfortable to shoot and accurate for self defense. next is to get the pistols i currently own out of the safe and occasionally into my pocket when the situation dictates (i don't like any bulk in my pockets) but more likely/often to be carried iwb with a comfortable holster.

as for personal satisfaction, don't we all want to be satisfied with our purchase. i don't know many people who set out to buy an ugly handgun that is of questionable quality. after all, it is about protecting our life or that of our family. then there's the quirk i have about plastic pistols. personally, i love steel.

for me, my vintage browning high-power (mint) is about as good as i need/want in terms of quality but it ain't going in my pocket or to be carried around in a holster. so, i'm really trying to accept my kahr mk9 elite as being my primary edc. i do not have any problems believing it to be a quality firearm. i feel it would be sufficiently accurate for most self defense situations. where i find it falls totally short is the occasional desire to throw it in my pocket (holstered)...and i could do better for iwb holster carry when it comes to comfort. that's why i've never carried it.

in the end, i'm kinda wishing i hadn't purchased the mk9 and instead chose the pm9. i know it's not alot lighter than my mk but when it comes to comfort for occasional pocket carry, less weight is always better. i think my holster would be happier too and that's a good thing for someone trying to get his pistol out of the safe and place it where it belongs.

when it comes to satisfying all my goals, i don't think i can do any better than kahr as being 'the best' for my needs and purposes. if i don't already suffer from confusion, to make matters worse, i have a very large hand and i've already sacrificed when i bought my mk9 elite. going smaller is WAY out of the question. i'm kinda stuck! i'll be thrilled when i get the bug to do target shooting at a gun range where concealment is not an issue. it seems the choices would be much easier.

jmurch

09-26-2011, 12:08 PM

Pierce extensions (Ebay cheap) and grip tape made a big difference on my MK9.

Jeff

JimC

09-26-2011, 12:56 PM

Why is Kahr "high quality" ?

I can't jump onto your band wagon.

I don't consider the Kahr overall to be a "high quality" firearm. :eek:

In order to classify any firearm a "high quality" firearm, I believe that firearm and all that goes with that firearm needs to be 100% in all aspects.

I consider my PM9094NA to be a good pistol. It is well built, a thought out design for a small or nearly mini-sized pistol. It should be with an MSRP of $958.00. I don't care what they can be had for on the Internet or from your favorite LGS, the MSRP is $958.00. When you factor it sales tax wherever you live, your talking $1,000.00.

The magazines that Kahr is sending out with their pistols suck for all intents and purposes. I had two fail the very first day that I took my PM9 to the range. For those who don't recall my thread, they split down the two back folds. Then, one of the new replacement mags broke a follower on range day one after only 12 rounds!

I still don't trust my mags not to fail at any time as they did on the range but I am carrying my PM9.

Magazine failure as far as Kahr mags is not unfamiliar here on this forum. The end user should not have to modify of re-configure their mags in any manner to get them to work properly.

I wouldn't trust the new CM9 due to what I'm reading here about the overall function of the pistol. It may be teething problems but they should have been worked out before it was released to the general public.

Next, the overall Kahr Arms customer service response to negative issues with their products is sorely lacking when it comes to some customers.

Customer service has to be considered as a big factor when looking to purchase a firearm that will be used primarily for self defense.

This is why I do not consider the Kahr to be a "high quality" firearm.

If Kahr can get it right, my opinion may change. Until then, I won't be spending my $'s on another Kahr pistol.

O'Dell

09-26-2011, 01:15 PM

I can't jump onto your band wagon.

In order to classify any firearm a "high quality" firearm, I believe that firearm and all that goes with that firearm needs to be 100% in all aspects.

Well, I've had five Kahrs in the last five years and all have been 100% in all aspects. I'll stick with my opinion that the Kahr is a quality pistol. However, I don't agree with your criteria. Every manufacturer has had a few problem guns even my beloved HK, so on that basis, there are no quality guns.

Chuck54

09-26-2011, 01:22 PM

My Kahrs have been 100% :)

Popeye

09-26-2011, 03:06 PM

If I had something negative to report about the PM9 I would but the only thing I could possibly even make mention of is that I wish they would put the plastic base plates on the mags and didn't make you buy them. I mean really they probably cost 10 cents a dozen to make, if that.

jeepster09

09-26-2011, 03:20 PM

I gave up my my PM9....perhaps I should of had more patiance. However the first round always would jamb when a fresh mag was installed. Never a problem once first round was in. I was told by my gunsmith that it was due to Kahrs design in making it small due to off set of the way magazine was designed. For me the Kahr did not instill a level of confidence if I ever had to swap mags to spare mag. I did not want to be fiddling around to get the first round to feed. I have never had a problem with my Para Ordnances or my CZ Rami. That's my story and I am sticking to it....:001_huh:

cgo99

09-26-2011, 04:20 PM

My PM9 goes bang every time, has not given me any trouble at all, rides with me wherever I go and it's damn good looking.........hell, it has a better track record than my wife; enough said.

popgoestheweasel

09-26-2011, 04:45 PM

just to be clear, i'm not buying or selling the quality, or lack thereof, of kahr products. so far, to be fair, i can only comment on the things that are visible regarding my mk9 elite. it is a purdy pistol and the fit and finish are what i would expect for what i paid. beyond its looks, i have no business commenting on kahr since this is the only kahr pistol i have owned/touched and I have never fired the first shot with it.

reading some of the posts in this thread, i can see where some of the reported failures seem as though they could/should NOT be the fault of the owner...but some that could be attributed to something the owner may have caused. i'm no gunsmith to be sure. what i think i know is it being a customer service representative for a gun manufacturer could be a difficult job when so many things are possible causes for failures. i just have to believe that i could call kahr and find help with my pistol IF i could control my emotions and clearly state my case with facts backing it up. i know my gun is NOW about 3-4 years old and has NEVER been fired. if i were to take it to the range and have something stupid go wrong that was clearly not my cause/fault, i'd bet kahr would jump in the game. any reputable gun manufacturer should be willing to make things right.

Scoundrel

09-26-2011, 04:51 PM

i know my gun is NOW about 3-4 years old and has NEVER been fired.

Excluding period pieces/antiques/replicas/showpieces, why would you want to own a gun and never fire it?

I mean, I could understand getting a rare gun that has a very distinctive styling, polishing the crap out of it (maybe even a special coating/finish), putting a bunch of whizbangs on it, and putting it in a display case. I would never do such a thing but I understand the motivation.

But why, with a mass-produced gun that is very similar in appearance to many other models, would you own and never shoot one?

Bawanna

09-26-2011, 04:55 PM

It happens far more than you might think. People decide they should own a gun, have the best intentions, but never get around to shooting it, and some never get around to even buying bullets.
I get inquiries from time to time here at the dept, folks wanting beginner gun classes, I inquire in hopes that I might be able to help selection since most seem to want to buy before a class which isn't always a good thing.
Many, many of them say they've had the gun for years, loaded in a nightstand or in the closet but they never have shot it. I've gone to the car with a few of them as they had loaded it and forgot how or what to do to unload it.

Pretty crazy.

I'm glad the weasel is coming around and I'm here to help him do just that.

Scoundrel

09-26-2011, 05:06 PM

Barth

09-26-2011, 05:17 PM

Hmm.

It's just so weird to me.

I'm right there with you.
My EXO G27 didn't make it 24 hours.
Just took it home to read the manual and lube first.

popgoestheweasel

09-26-2011, 05:18 PM

thanks bawanna,

i've written my story about my 3-4 y/o mk9 that has resided in my safe (untouched) since i bought it. i think my story in this thread but can also be found in either the mk specific section or in 'holsters'. i'm way too tired to tell it again. suffice it to say i bought it with the intention of carrying but i have yet to overcome the many hassles associated with ccw (size, holstering, etc. etc.). i'm also a very busy man/father who works many hours/week so carrying is not a top priority. i have other handguns that are at my disposal so it's not a big deal if all hell broke loose in my home.

geez bawanna, i just know a pair of your beautiful wood grips would help me 'get over the hump' and give me the incentive to carry my mk9 elite. i'm sure they would add size to the pistol grip and fit my large hand much better than the factory 'skinny' grips.

since being on this forum (a grand total of 3-4 days), with help from y'all, i think i've come to some conclusions that will have me packin in no time. it's either my mk9 elite (with those new bawanna grips), or, i'll trade my 4 y/o sig sauer p226 (with only 2 magazines fed through it) for a new kahr pm9 (of course, with bawanna grips). did i say that i've had a sig p226 for 4 yrs and only fed 2 mags through it? oh no.....what kind of fool am i??? isn't that a song? ta-tah

Bawanna

09-26-2011, 05:35 PM

thanks bawanna,

geez bawanna, i just know a pair of your beautiful wood grips would help me 'get over the hump' and give me the incentive to carry my mk9 elite. i'm sure they would add size to the pistol grip and fit my large hand much better than the factory 'skinny' grips.

since being on this forum (a grand total of 3-4 days), with help from y'all, i think i've come to some conclusions that will have me packin in no time. it's either my mk9 elite (with those new bawanna grips), or, i'll trade my 4 y/o sig sauer p226 (with only 2 magazines fed through it) for a new kahr pm9 (of course, with bawanna grips). did i say that i've had a sig p226 for 4 yrs and only fed 2 mags through it? oh no.....what kind of fool am i??? isn't that a song? ta-tah

Well I surely can't help ya with grips on a PM9 unless you want me to send ya a piece of innertube, those are tupperware and just to muddy the stream, don't forget the CM9 either, save you a couple hundred you could use for ammo, holsters, or wood for your 1911 which I know will be coming.

I surely can make some slightly oversized grips for that MK but I gotta figure out these frame differences. It's frustrating as heck to me cause I know there are quite a few here that would enjoy some nice wood on K's and MK's.

I've even tried figuring out how to have a gun sent to an FFL, so I could make grips and send it back. Since it's out of state it has to be logged, transferred and then logged back and retransferred, a can of worms for sure.

I can't even buy a new MK and K with any assurance that the grips would fit someone elses. I might have to order some wood grips from Kahr and see how they fit my samples and see if I can modify to fit. Don't know what else to do.

Bawanna

09-26-2011, 05:38 PM

Hmm.

Now that I think about it, my P95 came from a situation like that. My brother-in-law bought it used from a gun shop along with a 50-rd box of S&B, which had a $6.99 price tag on it and was full. Financial trouble came along and I bought it from him. I am sure that he never fired it nor took any classes.

My Astra might have had a similar period of non-usage before it came to me, if I know the person it came from well enough to make such a supposition.

I guess I should have seen this perspective without even asking. It's just so weird to me.

It's weird to me too, I've had a few go a couple weeks to a month before I shot em but never longer than that and usually the same day.

I do have some of the ones you mention, older, relic, special things that could shoot but I don't and never have. I rarely shoot rifle anymore so I have a few of those that live happily in my toy box when not in my hands being fondled and loved immensely.

What is this infatuation and love of inanimate steel, tupperware and wood that has total control over my life and my meager bank account?

popgoestheweasel

09-26-2011, 05:43 PM

just for information purposes, i have been reading the sticky on prep for new kahrs. by golly, i even broke out the 'safe queen' and have begun tear down. is that the striker channel i see??? hmmmm, i'm getting closer.

Bawanna

09-26-2011, 05:45 PM

Atta boy weasel, we got him on the hook now boys. Get the net!

Bawanna

09-26-2011, 06:01 PM

I've got Kahr MK40 wood grips, smooth and checkered, that the legendary Bawanna could fit to the MK9 I'm thinking.

Might be willing to let them go cheap....

I've thought that they if they are the same vintage they should fit without modification.
Why don't you guys get together and do a trial. I'll add you to Bawanna Grips Management, umm, Vice President for both. I'll pay double what my net profits were in the 2010 fiscal calendar. (Don't that sound like executive talk right there by golly?)

I they fit, I might just buy em myself and use em as examples to make future sets. I'll deduct the price from our 3 salaries divided equally and compounded quarterly with a base rate based on the national average less .45791%.

Sound peachy?