P380-From Dirty Dog to Prom Queen

[DaveInCA]

Yes, my P380 went from a Dirty Dog to a Prom Queen in 7 months and 1200 rounds.

First off, I’m sorry for the long post. I fell in love with my p380 from the first time I held it, and I didn’t want to slam this gun without giving it a chance. I’m not a gunsmith but I was sure I could get this little gun working with Kahrs help (and I think I have!). I bought my California P380 in early March. I’ve had a PM9 for a couple of years, and couldn’t wait for the California compliant version of the P380 to make it to the shelves. I bought it at my LGS and started to learn that it’s a different beast right away.

I did the pre-fire break-in just like I did with my PM9. That spring was a real killer. I disassembled it for a good cleaning and a small piece of black plastic fell out of the slide. It turned out to be a part of the firing spring guide. I called Kahr, and with only a little bit of persuading was able to get them to ship me out the part. They originally wanted me to send the gun back to them. It looked like the gun would work with only half the disk on the guide, so I went ahead with the cleaning and lubing. Once that was done I’m off to the range. I’ve got two other .380’s, a Sig P-230 that my wife likes and an old AMT backup single action, one that actually worked perfectly. The first thing I found out was that the P380 needs full loads to work right. I had made up some light loads for my wife that worked great in the Sig. But in the P380 they would fail to fully eject, and quite a few just pushed part way out of the chamber then slide back in without extracting. These loads were 1.8g of Clays and a 100g Berry’s bullet. Ok, lesson learned.



I put 100 rounds of WWB through it next. I had a few failures to return to battery, no ejecting problems, but I had 3 light strikes. The FTRTB I could forgive for now, it’s a new gun, but when I pull the trigger it’s just got to go bang.
Next I did a detail strip and a good cleaning. That coat hanger takedown tool is a great idea. I did find a piece of metal in the striker channel that was to big to be flushed out the cleanout hole. I didn’t see it at first but it came out on the end of a Q-tip. Into the ultrasonic cleaner and a good lube from the sticky chart and I was sure I had “fixed” my problem child. I put in the new striker spring guide and was also careful to not lube the striker at all, that seemed to be the consensus of the other posters.
Back at the range, 1 out of 10 were light strikes now! That’s right, 5 in 50 were just barely kissed by the firing pin. That just didn’t make any sense to me, the main change I made was no oil, so a drop of oil on the striker and I was back to 2-3 light strikes per hundred. “My” gun wanted oil.

Back to the work bench. If oil made it better, then I figured something must be rubbing. I very lightly polished up the striker with 800 emery paper and Flitz polish as some others had suggested. I also lightly polished up the striker chamber. I could also see a slight dimpling on one edge of the firing pin hole so I took a new drill bit just a bit larger than the hole and took the razors edge off of it by just twirling it between my fingers a few times, it had just a hint of a chamfer now. I could really feel a difference when I ran the striker back and forth, much smoother. It also made for a smoother trigger pull on an already great trigger.
Ok, back to the range with high hopes again. Another 200 rounds down range and I was still having my light strikes. Crap! This was with WWB, Magtech and some reloads.
How complicated can this really be? A piece of metal gets pulled back under spring tension, then is released to smack against the primer, seems simple enough.

I took apart the slide again, removing the back plate and striker spring. I fitted a wooden dowel into the striker and checked that it moved smoothly back and forth. Next I cocked the striker using pressure on the dowel like the spring would have given. What I found was the striker would be pushed back, and then released but would hang on the striker block. I had to pull the trigger almost another 1/8 inch or so until the striker block was pulled back enough to allow the striker to pass. Aha! I’ve found the issue!
I called Kahr again and told them what I found. First thing to know is that Kahr must have had some people really screw up their guns. They took a pretty hard line that end users weren’t allowed to go into the slide. That by polishing any surface I had been “gunsmithing” and had almost surely voided my warranty, and no way would they pay to have my gun shipped back to them. Thank god that I had ordered that striker spring pin! I argued that by sending me that pin they had authorized me to go into the slide, and that I didn’t consider the polishing to be any more than a very thorough cleaning. They did send me a shipping label, and off it went. A couple weeks later I get a call that the frame was replaced and the gun was fixed. I had put about 600 rounds through the gun at this point.

Ok, now another California 10 day wait, with DROS and dealer fees. That sucks, I want my gun back! Off to the range again! I’m still having light strikes. I’m also having quite a few failures to feed; the slide sometimes locks back with rounds in the magazine. A call to Kahr, and they send me a new slide lock lever and a set of recoil springs. I kept the new lever, and followed the tips on this forum to file down the existing lever. That helped a lot, and taking the slide stop spring off and opening it up some seemed to resolve the slide lock issue. On the failure to feeds, I was noticing that the round would be flush against the breach, but didn’t want to slide up into position. On inspection of the slide I found that in firing 250 rounds I had quite a bit of brass shavings stuck to the bottom of the slide. I determined that if I slid a round into position, it would hang up on the bottom of the extractor then suddenly “snap” into position. On my PM9, the round slid in smoothly but firmly. I found the bottom of the extractor to have a knife sharp edge on it. I took the extractor off, and stoned the sharp edge off of it as well has giving it a really good polish with Flitz using a buffer bit on my DLT. I also noticed that the breach face was not smooth, and had some serious tool marks under the extractor. I really didn’t want to mess up the slide, and I’m pretty sure the edge across from the extractor that holds the shell is a pretty critical part. I Flitzed the heck out of the smooth face and very carefully gave just a bit of polish to the rest. This made a big difference. The rounds now slid smoothly into the breach.

continued

[DaveInCA]

Continued...


Ok, now the gun was feeding and ejecting, but I still had 2-3 light strikes per hundred. I called Kahr, and they were thinking it’s time to send it back again. Remembering the marks from the striker on the inside of the slide, I wondered if maybe the striker was out of spec? They were nice enough to send me another striker no hassle at all. Well, put that in and it made no difference. Now up to about 950 rounds.
Kahr said ship it back again. It’s now mid July and off it goes.

Kahr has my gun now for 6 weeks. I get a call explaining that my frame had to be replaced again, that there was a bad batch of polymer used on some of the frames and they were warping out of spec. I was a bit skeptical, but he promised me that my gun would work this time.

You guessed it, another California 10 day wait, with DROS and dealer fees. My gun is bailed out October 1st. Kahr did give me 2 free magazines for my troubles.

Back to the range, I put 100 rounds through the gun, plus about 25 of the light strike rounds I had saved from before.
I had one failure to feed, the round stuck at the bottom of the breach, and one nose dive. I’m pretty sure the nosedive was a bad round as I tried to load it in several times and it jammed repeatedly. It was one of the flat point WWB rounds.

I cleaned and checked it out again and noted that on the return form Kahr sent back with the gun, that they had replaced the frame, and updated the striker block and extractor. Checking out the extractor I can see where they had polished the edges like I had, but not as much so I gave it some additional work and then polished it like I had before. I opened up the bottom edge just a bit. Think of trying to help the extractor slide over a thicker case rim. I also took a look at the striker block. It now has a slight bevel on one edge of it, as if to help it go over the trigger cam. I don’t remember seeing that before, but it might have been there. I also took a felt polishing bit on my DLT to the inside of the chamber.

I gave the gun a real good cleaning and a run in the ultrasonic cleaner again. I racked the slide and the gun bound up on me. That is, I pulled the slide back and it got stuck not quite as far back as the takedown notch. I smacked it forward and pulled back and it locked up again. It took a bit of work, but I was able to get the slide back far enough to get the pin out and take it apart. I thought maybe I missed the barrel lug or something, but all looked OK. Took everything apart and put it back together without the recoil spring this time. I could definitely feel the slide binding up as I slid it forward and backward. If I tried it without the slide release pin in place it was much worse. I remembered that I had forgotten to lube the top inside of the slide! The entire gun had been degreased so the slide was bone dry. A bit of gun grease had it working smooth as silk. Another lesson learned, grease that slide because the top of the barrel rubs against it with almost no clearance. It bound up going backward and forward.

I lubed the gun up well. I used Mobile-1 on the inside of the slide rails and the barrel, and Tetra Gun grease on the front frame rails and the trigger cams as well as the metal inserts on the back of the frame. I also put a big glob of grease on the inside top of the frame, and a squirt of tri-flow in the striker channel. I really wanted to lube the breach/extractor area, but I’ve heard that too much grease/oil can get into the primer and kill the round. I ended up putting a bit of silicone O-ring grease on it with a toothpick. There is no petroleum in that grease, so I’m hoping it’s OK.

Back to the Range again!

70 rounds of Magtech and WWB down range with no problems.
Went home and checked out the gun. Gave it a light cleaning with a bore snake and q-tip around the extractor, and it fresh bit of O-ring grease. Back to the Range the next day and 80 rounds of WWB, and 50 of PMC with the only firing issue being one piece of brass getting caught in the slide. 6 more rounds of HST this time with no problems!
Near the end of this visit I noticed that my loaded chamber indicator wasn’t working any more. The little tab that rests on the cartridge had broken off. I never really liked that anyway, but I guess I’ll give Kahr a call and see if they’ll send me a new one.
Next I ran 25 rounds of Buffalo Bore +p through it without a hitch followed by another 50 rounds of
WWB. That Buffalo Bore is something else.

Well, I’m happy with my little gun now. :D It took over 1200 rounds and 7 months but it’s working great. With all that target practice I’m doing better with my mini-gun than most of the guys around me at the range with full size pistols.

If I could get a stronger recoil spring and a stronger striker spring I think I’d go for it.


Dave

[yatyas42]

Well Dave, I am a new Kahr owner who is having a silly amount of trouble with my CW9 (currently at KAI getting work done). So in your opinion, is the finished product worth it, reliability wise? Are you now confident enough with that gun that you would trust your life with it, or do you wish you would have gone with one of the other big name 380's? I guess I pose that question to anyone with an opinion on the subject. I know that to me the Kahr name was/is synonymous with quality, but stories like yours and mine make me wonder what all of the hype is about. Maybe when/if mine comes back solid, I will get it! Just my thoughts

[DaveInCA]

I absolutely love this gun. It's small, it's light, it's accurate, and now it works! I'll put another couple hundred rounds through it to be sure, but yes, at this point I would trust my life to it.

Try the Buffalo Bore +p rounds in this gun. I won't feel under-gunned with those in the magazine.

I think the design is good. I think there are some problems with the quality control. Now, the problem with my striker block can't be justified, that should never have been allowed to leave the factory. The other issues could have been taken care of with 15 minutes of tender hands-on care by someone who knew what they were doing before it shipped. I have to wonder if they are cranking them out to fast to do it right. I also wonder if something as simple as not letting the milling bits get so dull might make for more consistent product, but I have no experience at all with CNC machines so I can't say. I do think this gun needs a stronger recoil spring, but that is a trade off since it is already to hard to rack the slide. A stronger striker spring probably wouldn't help if the slide isn't fully in battery, but to be honest I'd like a really stiff trigger for this pocket pistol just for safety's sake and if someone offered such springs I'd buy them.

If I knew I was going to get in a gunfight, I'd probably choose my Combat Commander, or my 92FS (or a shotgun :D), but for everyday low-risk type situations, I really like this gun.

[racuda]

Dave, what was the serial number of the frame that was in the "bad batch of polymer"? My replacement frame (that still gives light strikes) is RC02XX. It will go back on Monday and I was wondering if they will replace the frame again.

[TominCA]

Similar to my problems with my first p380 - I had the frame replaced and eventually found three "ridges" on the bottom of the barrel which were partially slowing the recoil cycle. Took them off and things started to go real good. They are a lot of fun when runnng well! I've heard of people taking a 1/16 to 1/10th inch off of the recoil spring pin to ease up on the extractor tension. That may help your return to battery - which can cause light strikes if the slide is ever so slightly out of being fully in battery. Pins are only about $1.20 so its an easy try.

[OldLincoln]

Wow, Dave. I have this big block of stainless. Can I send it to you and have you make me a new gun? I love your persistence and analytical skills and the ability to make something happen.

One word as someone who has used the silicone grease on about everything around the house. It doesn't go away remains like a glob of sticky goo that will attract stuff. I am about to make a relevant post in the October thread my story about today.

[DaveInCA]

Dave, what was the serial number of the frame that was in the "bad batch of polymer"? My replacement frame (that still gives light strikes) is RC02XX. It will go back on Monday and I was wondering if they will replace the frame again.

My original serial number for the Cali frame with the mag disconnect that had the striker block timing issue was RC080x. It was replaced with RC367x, which was in the "bad batch". My "new" frame is RC19xx, go figure. I did get the impression that not all of the frames in a "batch" had issues, but some did. I have to wonder if maybe something was mixed wrong, or maybe the plastic or mold was to hot or cold.

[JodyH]

My original serial number for the Cali frame with the mag disconnect that had the striker block timing issue was RC080x. It was replaced with RC367x, which was in the "bad batch". My "new" frame is RC19xx, go figure. I did get the impression that not all of the frames in a "batch" had issues, but some did. I have to wonder if maybe something was mixed wrong, or maybe the plastic or mold was to hot or cold.
I don't think Kahr actually knows what the problem is.
I think they just keep throwing parts at the guns until they either work or you get tired of dealing with them and give up.

[jocko]

i think i have top agree with Jody H on this.

[HadEmAll]

Dave, I tried real hard not to post this. I really did. But I finally couldn't help it. And this is MY opinion. I've paid my P380 dues, and am not holding back anymore. Too much sugar coating of the P380s problems.

Working backwards through your story, and using your words, I arrive at the fact that after all that work and ammo, you've got 81 troublefree rounds out of your P380. You had a stovepipe somewhere in the 130 rounds before that. I'm not talking about the broken loaded chamber indication. You do have 1200 rounds through the gun. That might be forgiven.

Every malfunction that makes your pistol cease to function (stovepipe) and leaves you without a working firearm, even at the range, starts the round count to "working great" all over again.

Talking about just little pistols, the P380's peers, I have a $280 LCP and a $350 BG380 that have neither had a stovepipe one. Both have 300 rounds through them. I've got a Beretta 950 .25 that has 1000 consecutive rounds out of it with no stovepipes, since I quit using Blazer in it.

I'm hoping that when my P380 gets back it someday deserves the description "working great", but we'll see.

If they ever get these P380s working, I imagine .380 ammo sales will plummet.

I'm thinking the P380 is developing cult status, and deserves its own subforum. It's become a hobby for some, and a curse for others. Kind of like a old Norton Commando. Hell on wheels when they work, but a lot of time spent in the garage, and difficult to keep on the road.

[Bill K]

Well if you weren't a gun smith when you started with your P380 your post it sure reads like you're one now. Congrats on getting it fixed, it is a tribute to your patience and perseverance. In spite of your success, from all I've read, I'm not a fan of the P380 and would not recommend this particular Kahr model to anyone.

[knkali]

wow Dave you have a lot of patience. Many more uneventful rnd down range to you. But I have to agree with Hademall. Put more rnds down range before claiming victory. Your life depends on it.

[DaveInCA]

Well, maybe I'm in a state of euphoria and overly optimistic after finally having success with this little gun. I don't really have many choices, California regulations suck.
The LCP, P3AT and BG380 are not allowed for mere mortals to own. The P380 is the only polymer .380 I can buy for now.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

I emailed Kahr and asked if they would ship me a new LCI. They responded that they are machined with each slide and come as a matched set and I'd have to ship it back to them. Not too likely! I don't want to ship it away for another 6 weeks, and if their fix was to replace the slide I'd just loose it. Maybe they just want to inspect a p380 that works?

I guess with all the unhappy posts about this gun, I wanted to provide a ray of hope. As several people commented, I'm a very determined guy once I lock my jaws around something (me, stubborn?;)), and I've made this my project for the time being.

I'll definitely run another couple hundred rounds through it in the next couple of weeks and post an update.

Right now the brass pretty much comes straight back down my arm, and a few kind of bounce up and land on my head or in my shirt pocket. Does anyone know what that might indicate extractor wise? I'm thinking of taking the suggestion about loosening the extractor tension by shortening the pin a bit but don't have the experience to know if that's a good idea or not.

Dave

[knkali]

bad idea.

run 100-200 rnd through it. If it doesnt kiccup, clean it, holster it, and pour yourself a glass of wine. Who cares where the brass goes. Its a ccw piece.

Hope you never have to use it.

[HadEmAll]

Dave, I now understand your position much better. If the p380 is your only option, then to heck with what I or anyone else says. Those extraction system pins and springs are dirt cheap. Worth the investment in ammo in that case. Good luck. I'd sure like to see that extractor a simple pivot type with one spring and pin like the LCP and BG380, but it is what it is.

One person a couple of months ago claimed to fix his P380 by fiddling with or changing the extractor system components. You might initiate a search.

Good luck. I mean it.

[JodyH]

I wouldn't declare victory until at least 200 rounds go downrange with zero issues.

[KahrOwner]

I wouldn't declare victory until at least 200 rounds go downrange with zero issues.

I completely agree with you Jody. >200 rounds is the bare minimum IMO before I'd ever consider betting my life on it or counting on it to work for me in an emergency.

BTW, congratulations Dave! I'm currently in my 10 day wait to get mine back from its first trip back to Kahr (I'm also in California) and I'm not quite so far along in the whole debugging process as you are. I am not at all encouraged by all that I read about this pistol. It seems like much more bother than it is worth. I will be using your post to try to resolve any remaining issues that I find this weekend.

I had about 800+ rounds through mine with constant problems before finally sending it back to Kahr. They replaced the frame, extractor, spring, etc... let's hope it is the "latest versions" of these parts that I am getting sent back to me in two days.

I have to say that I am REALLY shocked that this thing does not shoot OK out of the box for $700. That just amazes me - clearly something is seriously wrong at Kahr.

$700 is an expensive handgun and for that money you shouldn't need to go through all this pain to get the thing to shoot OK.

I don't buy this "firm grip" stuff - you can take any of my other pistols and hold it almost any way you like and it will go bang and eject without a hitch. Guaranteed!

All these stories about rough edges found by Dave - I just want to add and to remind folks here that my P380 is also the very first time I have seen a small bump inside the bore of ANY firearm - EVER!

So, Kahr inspected that bore (with me on the phone) and they told me that yes they could see the bump but that it was in their opinion "acceptable".

That part just blows me away! Wonder what that does to accuracy. A match grade barrel? Right! Clearly some marketing term.

Bob

[DaveInCA]

Well I went to the range yesterday and shot off another 50 rounds of Magtech ammo without any issues. Why, why, can’t I learn to just leave things alone?

I had found TominCA’s posts from March about his P380 feed problem. I thought I had read every p380 post, but I missed that one somehow. A lot of his issues were the same ones I had, and much of his troubleshooting followed mine pretty closely.

I decided to give this gun a torture test. Not only did I load up 50 rounds of Berry’s bullets a bit on the hot side, I dug out 50 old CCI primers from 1978. I know, that’s not even fair to use known hard, mil spec primers that are over 30 years old. On top of that, they were stored in the rafters of my garage for that whole time.

The regular reloads worked pretty well, I did get 4-5 slide lock-backs that I didn’t have an issue with using the factory loads, I can work on that, maybe use smaller bullets, less powder, or file the slide stop back a bit more.

As for the CCI loads, that caused some issues. 44 fired off just fine. Looking at the primers I could see that the dimples were only about half as deep as the other primers had been. Of the 6 that didn’t fire, 4 fired the next strike, and two wouldn’t go off at all. All in all, it wasn’t perfect but I thought considering what I threw at it, it would do. But could I stop there? Noooo.

So, CCI primers all looked a bit light? What if I could get a stronger striker spring like I mentioned on my first post? Would that fix it? Well, nothing from Kahr, nothing from Wolf, hmm, let me think.

I had bought a bunch of spare stuff a few months ago for my PM9 and P380. I like to do that for all my guns. You know, the small parts that go BOING never to be seen again and a spare set of springs and such that would take a gun out of service if you lost one cleaning it. I pulled out my spare PM9 striker spring. Hmm, a bit shorter (2 1/8”) when new than the stock p380 spring, but same diameter and much stiffer. When removed the existing spring, it measured 2 1/8” also after being use for over 1000 rounds. Might just work!

You know how they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? Look out, here I come! I think I have a pretty good idea HOW this gun works now, but I’m starting to figure out the parts affect each other.

Ok, so I put in the PM9 spring and put the gun back together. It works, and the trigger does feel stiffer, but not to bad. I don’t have a trigger scale, but I do have a digital hanging scale. First I measure my PM9 by hanging the gun from the trigger and slowly pulling down until it almost fires. It measures 5.2 lbs, which sounds about right. The P380 is reading 7.4 lbs, and that sounds about right also. I put in some sized brass with a CCI primer in it and it gets a good solid dimple when I pull the trigger, great!


I’m thinking It can’t hurt to run with a stiffer spring for a bit and re-run my CCI tests. I didn’t count on how tight the Karh specs are. I load in my snap caps and as I pull the trigger back the slide starts to move back also (maybe 1/16 – 1/8 inch). The gun fires and the slide move back into place. This is where I figure out part of the difference between my hammer fired guns and the Kahr striker fired guns. When a hammer fired gun is fired, the slide cocks the hammer back, and it is attached to the frame. When the striker fired gun is fired, the striker is partially cocked in the slide, and when you pull the trigger the striker is pushed back against the slide. So if the recoil spring tension holding the slide in place is less then that of the striker spring (7 pounds in this case), when the cam is pushing on the striker the slide will move instead of or in addition to the striker.

So here are my thoughts. It’s been posted by lots of people that if your slide is just a bit out of battery you might have misfires. If the slide doesn’t close all the way, you might notice that and push it closed. If it did close and it moves back a bit while you pull the trigger it is not so obvious. The trigger cam pushes the striker back until it can ride over the top of it. If the slide is pushed back a bit, that would happen before the striker was fully cocked and you wouldn’t have your full spring tension, and maybe a light strike. If there is no extra recoil spring tension left over when you start pulling the trigger (preload) then it wouldn’t take much to pull the slide out of battery. Maybe some dirt/powder in the striker channel or by jerking the trigger. It would seem that a longer spring would provide more preload since it would be compressed more when at rest. I would think more turns on a longer spring with thinner wire could also give you more preload while keeping the final slide-back tension about the same. I don’t really know for sure, but it sounds right.

I’ve got 4 sets of recoil springs for the P380. The factory ones, the replacements Kahr sent me and 2 spare sets I bought so I figured I could sacrifice one set to test with. I stretched both of them out until the slide no longer moves back when I pull the trigger with the stronger spring. I’m going to give this combo a test and see how it works. I might expect some problems with light target loads not extracting, I’ll see.

So what do I hope to find out? If this does make for stronger strikes on hard primers I would consider having two sets of springs for my gun, one for target practice and a new set for self defense. I could rotate the new springs into target use as they wear out while always having a fresh strong set for SD use. And if anyone ever came out with some extra power recoil springs I’d go for that too. What do you guys think? Am I off the deep end here?

[DaveInCA]

I went back to the range today, and I couldn’t be happier!:D

1st off, the PM9 striker spring is going to stay with this gun. It made a real difference in my primer strikes. I fired off 175 more rounds today without any issues.

I didn’t have any more 30 year old CCI small pistol primers, but I did have a box of 30 year old MAGNUM small pistol primers that should have been even harder. I loaded 25 more handloads using those before I went, along with 100 using Winchester primers. All 25 rounds fired with no problems. They had deep primer indents equal to what the original spring had been doing on softer primers.

The 100 handloads also had no issues and their primer indents were full solid indents. Yeah.
edit-I did file the slide lock down just a tad more, and I shortened the OAL of the loads just a hair as well as opening up the slide lock spring some to help with the lock-backs.

A box of 50 WWB flat nose also had no issues.

A note that stretching out my recoil springs didn’t work. After racking the slide about 10 times the spring was back into the original set it had. I put in a new recoil spring set and it worked great with the PM9 striker spring, and it was still working fine after say 25 hand racks and 175 rounds, so call it 200. Until someone comes out with a +5% spring for this gun I’ll just plan on keeping a fresh set for carry use. Just watch the recoil spring rod tip on the front of the gun when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber. If it moves just a bit, say 1/8 inch or less then you are good. Any more than that and I’d start using that spring set for target use only. My old spring was exposing almost ¼ inch of that rod tip when I fired when using the PM9 striker spring.

I also was looking at how the extractor tension pin worked. It is kind of wedged against the extractor and slides when the extractor is pushed out. I put a small drop of mobil-1 on that surface and I noticed the shell casings ejected more uniformly and off to the right. Of course, it could just be the new recoil spring set.

After I clean the gun I’ll re-measure the trigger pull again. I’m hoping that the spring broke in a bit and might not be quite so stiff.

Dave

[JFootin]

Dang, Dave! Kahr needs to hire you in as a consultant to help them solve the P380 problems!

[DaveInCA]

That would be a heck of a commute. Maybe they'll send me a free gun?:rolleyes:
Seriously, they could put a heavy striker spring and a stronger recoil spring into a package and call it a "reliability package". Give a disclaimer that it might not work with light target loads because of the stiff spring and make a lot of people happy.

[KahrOwner]

Lot's of Mobil 1 "100% synthetic" at my place as I have used it in all my car engines for years now and I believe that it is just about the best engine oil ever made (although a bit pricey). But it is very very slick oil!

Also, I even have the Mobil 1 fully synthetic grease (from PEP Boys).

But I hadn't thought about using these in my guns - that is VERY interesting! I'll need to try that one Dave and thank you.

Bob

[jocko]

actually Mobil One is no more slippery than standard oil A very unproven assumtption and often shot down by the Mobil One Techs even. I run it in all my cars. actually My mercedes, Porsche and audi all under the hood have a sticker. Mobil One only. I buy it all day long for $7.50 a quart and change every 10K..

Have Run Mobil V-Twin in my harleys since they day they introduced it.Also run Mobil synthetic 75-140 in my tranny also.. Will it work in a gun sure it will but it is no better in a gun than regular gun oil. The chemical additives in Mobil One is certainly not needed in athe workings of a gun, but it will work and it will run like every other oil to

[OldLincoln]

I put Mobile 1 in my new Pontiac GTO big block 4 on-the-floor and it left big puddles on the floor. Wasn't made for American cars in those days. Problem was it still leaked after going back to regular oil. It may not prove out to be slipperier but it's something different. I still wouldn't use it on my life dependent carry gun though.

I know it's not "correct" to say, but I'm very proud of Dave for his work to understand how the gun works, the issues and try various fixes, not giving up when one issue triggers another. You're a good man Dave.

Now I agree one should not have to go through all that, so no backtalk, okay? If I had that gun and Kahr even sent me a brand new gun that was perfect, I'd still want to hang onto the bad gun to understand it and see if I could fix it. That's the way I'm made and I'm glad I am. I've macgyvered more stuff than most can imagine, although on this forum I've read stories that have that familiar ring to them.

[TominCA]

Hi Dave in CA - I can't wait to get home and put my PM9 striker spring into my p380 = Ha Ha - Thanks for a great post! I had never understood that relationship until I read you 10/19 post.

My P380's are both runnng good now - but one has a tendancy to act up when dirty and hot (about 75 continuious rounds) - which really isn't an issue in a pocket gun!

One thing I noticed was the tension on the extractor in all of my p380's (I've had 3 - still have 2) was off scale tight. I compared it to my flawless functioning PM9 and then ground down the pin at the rear of the spring about 1/10 to 1/16 th of an inch. It brought the extractor into the same range as the PM9 - I also swapped out the magazine springs for wolf springs for another 380 made by Kel Tek - I think it was the P3 AT (search Jocko's posts for this one because I forgot which gun they are for - he suggested it) It is the same spring with one additional coil. I suspect that the extractor tuning is very critical and jamming that rim under an overly tight extractor uses up a lot of return energy on the return to battery slide stroke. The pins are cheap - like $1.10 and I had an extra one because it looked like a "flying part" so I stocked up.

I really like the little guns now - I too shot Buffalo Bore +P but it was just too much! I use Corbon 90 grain hap as a "carry" load, because it is about 20% more powerful and will forgive a lousy grip / dirty gun, etc. and anything else (since now they function with anything) for the range.

Thanks for a great post and all your hard work!

[DaveInCA]

After 200 trigger pulls, I'm reading 6.6 lbs using the PM9 spring, and it feels pretty good, very smooth.

I don't know if Mobil 1 is better than regular oil. I started using it because was thicker than my gun oil, and other posters said they liked it because it didn't get too thick in cold weather. My oil change place fills up my 2oz oil can for free when I get my oil changed :).

[TominCA]

I use mil-Tek (can't spell) as a "base" because it makes the gun much easier to clean - and then FP-10 or another good lube such as Mil-Comm 2500 or 3000 over it - As the pistols have worn in they are a lot less fussy about lube. FP-10 is great stuff and I always put a needle oil drop in the extractor spring channel. I can feel a noticeable difference playing eith the extractor. The only problem is that it evaporates in a few weeks.

[DaveInCA]

I know it's not "correct" to say, but I'm very proud of Dave for his work to understand how the gun works, the issues and try various fixes, not giving up when one issue triggers another. You're a good man Dave.


Aww shucks, it wern't nothing. :blushing:

[DaveInCA]

I’m going to see if I can attach a picture of the fired cases. On the left, standard WWB shell The two in the center were CCI primers with the factory spring, and the two on the right were CCI primers with the PM9 spring.

[jocko]

u might be on to something there. curse all 5 look good, some just look better, but the bang thing happened with all 5..

[DaveInCA]

Oh, sorry. Here is one that didn't go bang. CCI primer w/factory spring again. If this had been one of my regular primers I think the indent would have been twice as deep, and it more than likely would have fired.

[JodyH]

Be aware that if you increase the striker spring weight without increasing recoil spring weight you can create a situation where the pistol might fire "out of battery".
That's a bad thing and can result in gun damage and shooter injury.
You also need to take into account that recoil springs will wear out faster than striker springs. So what works safely today might not work 500 rounds from now.

[Cokeman]

One thing I noticed was the tension on the extractor in all of my p380's (I've had 3 - still have 2) was off scale tight. I compared it to my flawless functioning PM9 and then ground down the pin at the rear of the spring about 1/10 to 1/16 th of an inch. It brought the extractor into the same range as the PM9. I suspect that the extractor tuning is very critical and jamming that rim under an overly tight extractor uses up a lot of return energy on the return to battery slide stroke. The pins are cheap - like $1.10 and I had an extra one because it looked like a "flying part" so I stocked up.

Can you be more specific about this? What exactly did you do to the pin, shorten or thin out? What is the PM9 extractor like?

[Rainman48314]

Well, maybe I'm in a state of euphoria and overly optimistic after finally having success with this little gun. I don't really have many choices, California regulations suck.
The LCP, P3AT and BG380 are not allowed for mere mortals to own. The P380 is the only polymer .380 I can buy for now.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

I emailed Kahr and asked if they would ship me a new LCI. They responded that they are machined with each slide and come as a matched set and I'd have to ship it back to them. Not too likely! I don't want to ship it away for another 6 weeks, and if their fix was to replace the slide I'd just loose it. Maybe they just want to inspect a p380 that works?

I guess with all the unhappy posts about this gun, I wanted to provide a ray of hope. As several people commented, I'm a very determined guy once I lock my jaws around something (me, stubborn?;)), and I've made this my project for the time being.

I'll definitely run another couple hundred rounds through it in the next couple of weeks and post an update.

Right now the brass pretty much comes straight back down my arm, and a few kind of bounce up and land on my head or in my shirt pocket. Does anyone know what that might indicate extractor wise? I'm thinking of taking the suggestion about loosening the extractor tension by shortening the pin a bit but don't have the experience to know if that's a good idea or not.

DaveWhat do you figure in your time, running to the Post Office, State of California fees and all that ammo has cost you? Consider dumping that POS and getting a SIG P238. You will not regret it.

[DaveInCA]

What do you figure in your time, running to the Post Office, State of California fees and all that ammo has cost you? Consider dumping that POS and getting a SIG P238. You will not regret it.

Sig's are great guns. I have a P-230 that is a work of art, and runs like a clock. The reason I chose the p380 is that the P238 is 50% heavier and 33% thicker (10oz vs. 15oz and .75" vs 1"). I already have a couple of guns that fill that niche. Don't get me wrong, if I found a great deal on one I'd probably snatch it up. I still have high hopes for my p380. It's had about 250 rounds without issue so far. I just think it could be tuned a bit better and I can't help tinkering with it.

Dave

[DaveInCA]

I'm convinced that stronger springs would make the p380 more reliable. Extra power springs are common for tons of guns out there. I was looking over Wolf Springs site and I see they now have extra power recoil springs and extra power striker springs for the LCP.

I'm hoping Wolf will eventually come out with p380 springs.

[TominCA]

Hi Cokeman - I found on my p380's that the extractor held the cartridge rime with more horce than I have seen on any pistol. I've had to adjust extractors on 1911's before and I was suprised to see so much tension. I got my PM9 our and my MK9 which are basically the same design in 9mm and checked the force it took to force a cartridge under the extractor (just pull the slide and stick a cartridge in from the bottom) It was stiff on the PM and MK but not nearly like the p380.

As the slide moves forward it is powered by the recoil spring. That spring has to push the cartridge hard enough to alip it out of the magazine and up under the extractor. It looked to me like that would take a LOT of energy to push the extractor back. To me it was too much - especially since the pm9 was a lot less.

I'm going to guess the extractor curve was not fitted properly, but I didn't want to change that. I also could have cut a few coils off of the extractor tension spring but that woudl have limited its force and range. I took the lide part and the little pin in the back (the one that flies out and gets lost) was only $1.10 - and I had a replacement on hand. The spring was very compressed in the channel. The whole thing, Extractor tension, effort to slide a cartridge rim under the extractor and the force holding the extractor spring in the channel seemed excessive. I got my Dremel and ground the pin down a litlte off the end - not thinner - so it was shorter and let the spring relax more - you don't need to do much - its very critical. About 1/16 inch was good. I reassembeled it and checked it as I ground. When it looked right I stopped. I don't know if I fixed anything - but I think I did - the cartridges chamber much easier and I have no extraction problem.

I don't think it was put together properly at the factory. Maybe other 380's don't have this problem - but mine seemed to have too tight extractors.

Worth a try - but buy a new pin first in case you mess up or it doesn't work

[Cokeman]

Mine has a super tight extractor. I can't move it without using something to push it. I did it with a dowel and it slipped off and nearly sliced my finger open on the extractor.

Which pin are we talking about, #27?

Kahr P380 Parts Breakdown (http://www.kahr.com/PDF/P380_PartsList.pdf)

[jocko]

they are all like that on kahrs. some think even maybe to tight. What tom inca wrote is right on the money, at the worst you will ruin a $1.10 pin that is easily replaceable, at best u will lighten up the extractor pressure a tad. Now when he said just aake off a tad, he means it. maybe.020. then retest. u can't put back on what u took opff. be careful with a dremel, I would suggest maybe a fine file or a dremel with a sanding wheel insteadof a cut off disc. again, go slow . smooth off that end pin when reinstalling. alittle oil in the extractor channel is an OK thing to...

when one reads of tuning extractors by smitty's that is normally what they are referring to.

[TominCA]

Yep, pin 27 - Jocko is right just take a little off - I'm guessing when I said 1/16th of an inch- I tested it every little bit by putting it back together and trying a cartridge fit. It is also a lot easier to put back together!

[Cokeman]

I'll have to check into it more.

[Kenjs2]

Does that also change the angle that the cartridge ejects?
If not, how do you change the ejection angle?

[DaveInCA]

Another 50 rounds of WWB downrange today at lunch time with zero issues.
I did take .020 inches off my extractor spring pin (that's 1/50 of an inch). It seemed to make the shell casings eject just a bit higher, over my shoulder as opposed to straight down my arm. I think I'll leave it there.

[jocko]

nice job. did u file it, dremel it, bite it off??

when one does some of these successful little mods, it would be nice if u would give us full details on how u did what. we learn from ur doings!!

[DaveInCA]

I put it in a vise and filed it down carefully. That is one hard little pin.
It went from .525" to .505" .
edit to fix lengths. And yes, it is the rear pin behind the cover plate.

[jocko]

I am assuming u mean the back pin and not the pin in front of the extractor spring that has a bevel on it that rests behind the extractor...

[KahrOwner]

Just curious Dave - have you had any issues with rounds nose diving into the feed ramp?

It appears to me to be a magazine issue with my own P380.

I get it most often when I manually rack the slide mostly with certain ammo like WWB.

Bob

[DaveInCA]

Not really with nose dives. I've had a few WWB flat nose that seemed to "stick" on the ramp after firing a couple of boxes and it was dirty, but a whack on the back of the slide seems to do the trick. When I was having so many problems when it was new I got in the habit of putting a thin coat of white grease on the ramp.

[KahrOwner]

Not really with nose dives. I've had a few WWB flat nose that seemed to "stick" on the ramp after firing a couple of boxes and it was dirty, but a whack on the back of the slide seems to do the trick. When I was having so many problems when it was new I got in the habit of putting a thin coat of white grease on the ramp.

I compared my Kahr P380 magazine fully loaded to a SIG magazine also fully loaded.

When these Kahr mags are filled up the tips of the rounds spread out like fingers and the top ones can flop around (eg. nose dive) - the SIG mag by comparison has ALL the rounds held tightly together (parallel) like sardines.

IMO, it is because of this (design?) flaw that this nose diving behavior is even possible. As the mags empty the lower rounds cannot nose dive because all that slop evaporates as we get closer to the follower. The very last round can only slide in correctly - a nose dive with that round is nearly impossible.

I think that if these magazines were properly designed every round would be presented to the slide at an almost identical angle (like the SIG mag). That is also the ONLY way that this thing can ever become reliable IMO. Otherwise (with all this slop) correctly chambering each round will always be a bit of a dice roll.

Instead the top rounds "trip" over the rim/groove of the round below them and the bullet tip nose dives into the feed ramp. A lot of the time it bounces and then ends up in the chamber (or we would be hearing a lot more about this issue). Sometimes not surprisingly it just jams solid there.

This design can NEVER be reliable.

So what is the fix I wonder? (And... is it even possible short of redesigning this chunk of ****).

Bob

[Cokeman]

I compared my Kahr P380 magazine fully loaded to a SIG magazine also fully loaded.

When these Kahr mags are filled up the tips of the rounds spread out like fingers and the top ones can flop around (eg. nose dive) - the SIG mag by comparison has ALL the rounds held tightly together (parallel) like sardines.

IMO, it is because of this (design?) flaw that this nose diving behavior is even possible. As the mags empty the lower rounds cannot nose dive because all that slop evaporates as we get closer to the follower. The very last round can only slide in correctly - a nose dive with that round is nearly impossible.

I think that if these magazines were properly designed every round would be presented to the slide at an almost identical angle (like the SIG mag). That is also the ONLY way that this thing can ever become reliable IMO. Otherwise (with all this slop) correctly chambering each round will always be a bit of a dice roll.

Instead the top rounds "trip" over the rim/groove of the round below them and the bullet tip nose dives into the feed ramp. A lot of the time it bounces and then ends up in the chamber (or we would be hearing a lot more about this issue). Sometimes not surprisingly it just jams solid there.

This design can NEVER be reliable.

So what is the fix I wonder? (And... is it even possible short of redesigning this chunk of ****).

Bob

It is for many people.

[KahrOwner]

It is for many people.

Yes, but I guess that really depends on what you consider reliable. Some people seem to have very low standards of reliability which is fortunate for Kahr.

Personally I doubt that the military or police would ever carry anything with a serious magazine design flaw like this one.

Bob

[JodyH]

From speaking with Kahrs CS rep and doing some research I'm pretty sure Checkmate Industries is who makes Kahrs magazines.
Checkmate isn't known as a top tier magazine manufacturer.
I wish Kahr would switch to Mec-Gar, that would be a huge improvement IMO.
Mec-Gar makes the Ruger LCP magazines and they look, fit and function magnitudes better than my Kahr P380 magazines.

[OldLincoln]

From speaking with Kahrs CS rep and doing some research I'm pretty sure Checkmate Industries is who makes Kahrs magazines.
Checkmate isn't known as a top tier magazine manufacturer.
I wish Kahr would switch to Mec-Gar, that would be a huge improvement IMO.
Mec-Gar makes the Ruger LCP magazines and they look, fit and function magnitudes better than my Kahr P380 magazines.

I'm truly stunned if that's the case. I bought Checkmate because what I have heard is very good about them. I'll dig also and see what I can find.

[JodyH]

Checkmate isn't down there with Triple-K or Promag (both of those are JUNK), but they aren't near the same quality as MecGar.
Compare a Beretta 92 MecGar magazine to a Beretta 92 Checkmate magazine and the differences are obvious.
I've heard a few good things about Checkmate 1911 magazines, but that's about it.

[KahrOwner]

IMO if there were a good magazine for the P380 it would make all the difference - and on so many of these issues.

For the record - my SIG mags were nearly all made by Mecgar!

Good luck!

Bob

[OldLincoln]

I bought Check Mate mags for my 1911 mainly because it is an alloy frame including the feed ramp. Even the original Colt mag digs into the ramp. I bought some McCormick mags reputed to be good and they likely are but their followers also gouged. The Checkmate "patented" followers have a nice front shield that prevent them from moving forward and no more gouges.

They don't have any 9mm mags in their catalog so I thought they simply don't make any, even OEM, but I can be wrong.