PM or CM??

[brianm767]

New to the forum, actually I just found it, I'm a big Kahr fan, I had two of them but I actually just traded them for other guns.

I had a all black PM9, it was on my CCW and I loved the gun, but a deal came along that I couldn't refuse, I traded it for a Polytech M14S.

I also had a P380 but I traded it for a CMP S/G S/A Garand.

I need to replace these guns, and money is tight, I just bought a Keltec PF9 as a stop gap because I could get it on a payments over three pay checks, I pick it up in 10 days (California, $402 OTD) Not sure if I will be satisfied with it, I do love the feel and the weight of it, but I think I may still try to get me another Kahr PM/CM9, I just love Kahr quality

It's going to cost me about $650-675 OTD to buy another Black PM9, and about $475 OTD for a CM9, not Cali approved, have to go through some hoops to get it, is it worth the extra money for the PM? Honestly it really doesn't matter to me about the Mim parts, the poly barrel, etcc... I just love the black, is there any noticeable differences when shooting the two guns?

I also need to replace my P380, thinking I may just get another Ruger LCP, I had a LCP at the same time as my P380 also but I traded it for a Browning Hi Power, I'd rather have a P380, but not sure I can justify the extra bucks. I was more accurate with the LCP and it was also thinner and lighter. LCP willl be $394 OTD, P380 Non Cali model will be about $$575 ouch!!

[wyntrout]

I have the black PM9 with night sights and I love it and its siblings... great to shoot... not target pistols but some guys get two-inch groups at 25 yards. At 65, I shoot better at 7 yards.

If you really want the black, go for it and get the PM9. I may not need the "polygonal target barrel" but I like all of the extra features. The CM9 is the same size and functions the same.

If you get the CM9 you may be able to get an extra magazine free now with the promotion... not sure when it ends, though.

If you have a tight budget, the CM9 comes in one flavor and several hundred cheaper, but I would advise getting one or two, preferably, extra mags... the 6-shot flush metal based, or the 8-shot extended grip ones. I have had no problems with the latter, but for many the 7-round extended grip mags have been problematic. I use the 8-round extended grip mags for carry reloads(1) and at the range.

If you want other sights there are options to replace the front plastic one on the CM9. The rear is hard to do yourself.

Magazine pix:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2944&highlight=9mm+magazines

I know you've had Kahrs but the video at kahr.com is very helpful:

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-CM9.asp See the take down video.

Welcome to Kahrtalk, too.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

I'm always editing and you may miss my addition: "If you really want the black, go for it and get the PM9. I may not need the "polygonal target barrel" but I like all of the extra features. The CM9 is the same size and functions the same."

Wynn:)

[OldLincoln]

They didn't have the CM9 when I got my PM. I don't regret getting it but now that I'm used to it I would get the CM instead. One thing is I would like to take the sharpness off the edges on the slide and slide stop. My black finish is splotchy and can get better appearance in after market and still save money.

You can make a list for each gun of what you would get for it, mags, sights, black coating, etc. and price it out and go with cheaper if that's for you. Also include the hassle factor of getting a gun off-list.

[brianm767]

You can make a list for each gun of what you would get for it, mags, sights, black coating, etc. and price it out and go with cheaper if that's for you. Also include the hassle factor of getting a gun off-list.
Good advise.

And yes Off list is a hastle, I paid the single shot mark up for my PF9 and my LCP, but my P380 I got off my son who is LEO here in Cali, as you know he can buy off list as well as from Buds Law Enforcement sight, then it's the $19 bucks to transfer to me if he chooses to get rid of what he buys.

[JimC]

I bought my black with NS PM9 (PM9094NA) in July of this year.
The CM9 came out earlier in the year as I recall. I couldn't find a LGS that had a CM9 in stock so I could compare the two pistols. In fact, in this area, no one seemed to know much about the CM9.
I liked the added features of the PM9 over the CM9 so that's the way I went even though it was added $'s for the PM9 and I'm happy with my choice.

[WMD]

Just to clear something up.... The polyganol barrel is not a "target" barrel. The benefit of a polyganol barrel is, you get higher velocity then in an equivelant gun with land and groove rifling using same ammo. The higher velocity equates to more knock down power hence greater benefit in CCW.

Do polyganol barrels increase accuracy? There seems to be two schools of thought on that one. Some say "yes", and some say "no". I have found in Kahr pistols I have shot (CW9 vs P9) the land and groove rifling to be just as accurate as polyganol. Kahr seems to have the accuracy thing nailed regardless which barrel you have.

I carry a PM9 as a CCW. I think it is the best one out there (IMHO).

Just my 2 cents.... :D

[Thunder71]

Just to clear something up.... The polyganol barrel is not a "target" barrel. The benefit of a polyganol barrel is, you get higher velocity then in an equivelant gun with land and groove rifling using same ammo. The higher velocity equates to more knock down power hence greater benefit in CCW.

Do polyganol barrels increase accuracy? There seems to be two schools of thought on that one. Some say "yes", and some say "no". I have found in Kahr pistols I have shot (CW9 vs P9) the land and groove rifling to be just as accurate as polyganol. Kahr seems to have the accuracy thing nailed regardless which barrel you have.

I carry a PM9 as a CCW. I think it is the best one out there (IMHO).

Just my 2 cents.... :D

What he said... word for word.

[Russ]

One issue I have encountered with the CM9 is the front pin sights. The night sight I had Kahr install keeps breaking off. The PM9 with dove tail front sight may hold up better over the CM9 front night sight.

[jocko]

One issue I have encountered with the CM9 is the front pin sights. The night sight I had Kahr install keeps breaking off. The PM9 with dove tail front sight may hold up better over the CM9 front night sight.

very rareto heare though, so I really don't considerit a hindrance. all cdw's havfethe same front sight and we havein the past not had alot of issues their. u problably got a bad installation in the first place. certainly much easier to change that front sighton a cm9 over a PM9...and I kinda like the clean lines of the pinned sight to.

[OldLincoln]

When messing with my PM9 dovetailed front sight, I discovered it is metal, and definitely has a strong attachment. If the plastic front sight is a concern then go PM9.

[JFootin]

I haven't seen any actual test results showing any significant difference in velocity between the barrels, especially the short barrel on the PM and CM. And for the big diff in price, the CM9 is the way to go.

Another even less expensive option to consider is a CW. The CW9 and CW45 can be had for well below $400, although I don't know about the Commiefornia complications. But when you can get a 6+1 CW45 for like $367 and free shipping, and it is still a very compact, concealable firearm in a very potent caliber, and a sweet shooter, it is something to think seriously about.

[wyntrout]

Just to clear something up.... The polyganol barrel is not a "target" barrel. The benefit of a polyganol barrel is, you get higher velocity then in an equivelant gun with land and groove rifling using same ammo. The higher velocity equates to more knock down power hence greater benefit in CCW.

Do polyganol barrels increase accuracy? There seems to be two schools of thought on that one. Some say "yes", and some say "no". I have found in Kahr pistols I have shot (CW9 vs P9) the land and groove rifling to be just as accurate as polyganol. Kahr seems to have the accuracy thing nailed regardless which barrel you have.

I carry a PM9 as a CCW. I think it is the best one out there (IMHO).

Just my 2 cents.... :D

Well, excuuuu-use me... I said target... Kahr says Match Grade:



Kahr Barrel

http://www.kahr.com/images/company/vg_KA-2A_sub.gifThe Kahr barrel begins its transformation from a solid round billet of high tensile strength proprietary steel, 3 inches in diameter and 30 inches long. In the temperature-controlled environment of the Lothar Walther factory, the barrel stock is gun drilled and rifled to match grade tolerances.
At the Kahr factory, the barrel stock is precisely cut to length and CNC machined. Nearly 75% of the solid steel billet is machined away to produce a single Kahr barrel. This intensive production method, providing the greatest material integrity and tightest tolerances, was chosen to assure the best quality barrel possible.
Kahr quality, unmatched at any price.


For the distance involved in defensive shooting, I can't imagine a big difference, but I appreciate quality stuff... though I don't go out of the way to spend a lot more money!:eek:


Wynn:)

[Popeye]

I never shot a CM9 so I can't say anything about it other than it's a Kahr and there reputation stands for itself. I like black pistols all of mine are black on black. I like the Tru Dot night sights on the PM9. How much better the polygonal barrel is over standard rifling is, would probably be better left to someone with a better understanding of the polygoanal barrel. I believe it might stay cleaner than a standard rifled barrel. What I do know is this, I seem to be able to shoot the PM9 and G26 as accurately as some much larger pistols that have standard rifling. So who knows if I just shoot those two pistols better or what it is? If times were different and they had the CM9 when I was looking for a good single stack 9mm I might have gone to the CM9 to fill those needs. I sure wouldn't trade my used PM9 for a new CM9 though. It's just been to good of a pistol to think about trading it for any pistol. IMO the PM9 just drips quality.

[brianm767]

Another even less expensive option to consider is a CW. The CW9 and CW45 can be had for well below $400, although I don't know about the Commiefornia complications.
Actualy the CW9 is California Roster approved, so to California, since it was submitted for the necessary testing, and passed, it is a "Safe Weapon" but the CW40 and CW45 are not safe guns here, They are not on the roster.

You can normally get CW9's on sale for $399 in the bay area or LA area, in the central valley (center of the state) there more, but to me it's just a bit big, I love the CM/PM size, it sure is nice to think I can get two CM's for not too much over one PM9.

As far as the accuracy, for me, I carry if for self defense, most likely I will never ever have to use it, and God forbid if I did, I would imagine it would be against a threat who most likely is going to be only a few feet away, it probably wouldn't matter which barrel I have, not sure on the short barrels if the velocity would be much different either, same as with my LCP I hear allot of folks complaining about the rudimentary sights on the LCP, but honest on these belly guns, I doubt if you'll do much aiming, it's going to be more of a point and shoot.

I just wish the CM came in Black, the ideal situation for me, as I did with my first Black PM9 is to find a almost NIB used one for $550ish

As far as the .45, my favorite Caliber is .40 but in the PM series I prefer the 9MM due to recoil, never shot the CW.45

[Bawanna]

You could always find a CM, shoot it some to make sure all is well with the world and then follow Thunders lead and have the top end Cerakoted. Don't sound terribly expensive, certainly less than the difference to a PM.

Couple here have done it and seem to be completely satisfied.

You can leave some shiney stuff like thunder did or make it all black through and through.

[Russ]

Two different Kahr gunsmiths installed front night sight and both broke in 80 rounds and 48 rounds respectfully. I am beginning to think the screw hole on the slide may not have been properly drilled when manufactured because it broke both times in just a few rounds and most everyone else on this website seems to have no problem with after market sights.

[jocko]

Actualy the CW9 is California Roster approved, so to California, since it was submitted for the necessary testing, and passed, it is a "Safe Weapon" but the CW40 and CW45 are not safe guns here, They are not on the roster.

You can normally get CW9's on sale for $399 in the bay area or LA area, in the central valley (center of the state) there more, but to me it's just a bit big, I love the CM/PM size, it sure is nice to think I can get two CM's for not too much over one PM9.

As far as the accuracy, for me, I carry if for self defense, most likely I will never ever have to use it, and God forbid if I did, I would imagine it would be against a threat who most likely is going to be only a few feet away, it probably wouldn't matter which barrel I have, not sure on the short barrels if the velocity would be much different either, same as with my LCP I hear allot of folks complaining about the rudimentary sights on the LCP, but honest on these belly guns, I doubt if you'll do much aiming, it's going to be more of a point and shoot.

I just wish the CM came in Black, the ideal situation for me, as I did with my first Black PM9 is to find a almost NIB used one for $550ish

As far as the .45, my favorite Caliber is .40 but in the PM series I prefer the 9MM due to recoil, never shot the CW.45

It isnot a cheap endeavor to get a gun approved in komifornia. Not like sending it in etc and they do allthe work and get back to you. I would think in time one model of a kahr 45 will be komifornia approved.

[Benaiah]

If money is tight, then the CM9 is the way to go. I would have loved to get a black PM9, but could only scrape up the funds for the CM9. I've had it about 3 weeks and absolutely love it!

[yqtszhj]

You could always find a CM, shoot it some to make sure all is well with the world and then follow Thunders lead and have the top end Cerakoted. Don't sound terribly expensive, certainly less than the difference to a PM.

Couple here have done it and seem to be completely satisfied.

You can leave some shiney stuff like thunder did or make it all black through and through.

Yep, What Bawanna said. I really like my CM9. 100% out of the box. And I would get the LCP until Kahr get's the P380 fixed. I don't have a P380 but it seems like there are a LOT if issues lately.

[JimC]

IMO the PM9 just drips quality.

I agree 100% when I look at my PM9.
So much in fact...I'm now considering a black PM45 w/NS. ;)

[jocko]

yup that wold be one awesome 45, all black wow,

[Russ]

Buds has the Beretta Nano listed for $398. I pre ordered NANO the gunsource.com for $408. I elected to pay a little more because my neighbor is. FFL dealer and he is already registered with gunsource and he will transfer for free. I will let you guys know how it performs when I het it.

[Ikeo74]

Buds has the Beretta Nano listed for $398. I pre ordered NANO the gunsource.com for $408. I elected to pay a little more because my neighbor is. FFL dealer and he is already registered with gunsource and he will transfer for free. I will let you guys know how it performs when I het it.
You saved $15 over Buds because the average transfer fee is $25. Congratulations for your purchase.

[muggsy]

Just to clear something up.... The polyganol barrel is not a "target" barrel. The benefit of a polyganol barrel is, you get higher velocity then in an equivelant gun with land and groove rifling using same ammo. The higher velocity equates to more knock down power hence greater benefit in CCW.

Do polyganol barrels increase accuracy? There seems to be two schools of thought on that one. Some say "yes", and some say "no". I have found in Kahr pistols I have shot (CW9 vs P9) the land and groove rifling to be just as accurate as polyganol. Kahr seems to have the accuracy thing nailed regardless which barrel you have.

I carry a PM9 as a CCW. I think it is the best one out there (IMHO).

Just my 2 cents.... :D

Do you really think that anyone shot by either gun would notice the difference in velocity? :) Just sayin'.

[Thunder71]

If the extra velocity a polygonal barrel provides helps the bullet expand then I'd say yes. In fact it could be the difference between stopping a threat and having to fire another shot if I'm able to. It's my carry weapon to defend against a violent attack, one more notch in my favor, I'll take it.

I won't miss the money difference nor do I care when it comes to protecting myself and my loved ones.

[kahrlover123]

If the extra velocity a polygonal barrel provides helps the bullet expand then I'd say yes. In fact it could be the difference between stopping a threat and having to fire another shot if I'm able to. It's my carry weapon to defend against a violent attack, one more notch in my favor, I'll take it.

I won't miss the money difference nor do I care when it comes to protecting myself and my loved ones.
This is my thought exactly.
U want a gun to protect your life and your loved one.
Why trying to save a couple hundred?

Another happy PM9 man here.

[JFootin]

If the extra velocity a polygonal barrel provides helps the bullet expand then I'd say yes. In fact it could be the difference between stopping a threat and having to fire another shot if I'm able to. It's my carry weapon to defend against a violent attack, one more notch in my favor, I'll take it.

I won't miss the money difference nor do I care when it comes to protecting myself and my loved ones.


This is my thought exactly.
U want a gun to protect your life and your loved one.
Why trying to save a couple hundred?

Another happy PM9 man here.

Sorry guys. No disrespect intended, but I seriously doubt that ANY difference in velocity can be seen between the short 3" barrels in the PM9 and CM9. I read a post here where someone chronoed a P40 and a CW40 and got HIGHER velocity from the CW40. Definitely not something on which to decide between the guns. The black finish, optional night sights and extra magazine are the main advantages for the PM9. But as far as actual, measurable shooting performance, there is no legitimate difference or advantage for the PM9 over the CM9. Be happy with your PM9s. Great guns. But don't go saying they shoot better. Even Jocko, the PM9 man, would tell you the same thing as I have.

[Thunder71]

I'll say whatever I believe, and I believe the PM9 is better and will continue saying so, thank you.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[JFootin]

I'll say whatever I believe, and I believe the PM9 is better and will continue saying so.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

Not challenging your right to free speech, Thunder. Get a chrono and prove it. Of course, you'll have to buy or borrow a CM9 to do the testing. :hippie:

[Thunder71]

Nah, "some guy" on the Internet did a test, must be true.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

[Bawanna]

I seriously doubt the person on the receiving end of your projectile will notice a few feet per second of difference. Even a 9 is bound to leave a mark and probably hurt like the dickens.
I'll not volunteer to be a test dummy for that project.

[cgff]

I just purchased a Cm9 and am totally thrilled with it. I put almost 200 rounds through it with out an issue. go for the CM9 break it in and carry it.
search a dea; for a second and do the same skip the 380. have one refinised
and dovetailed and shoot the beep out of em

[Thunder71]

My point isn't if they'll notice, it's expansion, which could benefit stopping power.

Let's agree to disagree on that difference and move on, shall we?

Yep, they'll both hurt like the dickens - there, are we all happy?

[JFootin]

Nah, "some guy" on the Internet did a test, must be true.

Posted from my Thunderbolt using Tapatalk.

It was a member's post here on Kahrtalk. Maybe he'll pipe up. I can't remember who it was. But he listed the results and expressed surprise that the bullets came out of the CW40 faster. I'll do some searching and see if I can find it. At least I have quoted some specific results from one of our fellow members, not just Internet lore.

Now, where is your proof? Some people on the Internet say bullets go faster through polygonal rifled barrels? Are they talking about rifles? Or full size target pistols? Barrel length is important, too. We are talking about 3" barrels, here. Do some Googling. See what you can find. Specific test results. Kahr doesn't claim any difference in velocity between the two guns. And I have never seen any proof of it involving short barreled self defense pistols.

[Thunder71]

I really don't have to prove anything, I gave my opinion - just as you did. Neither one of us has hard data to back up it up, that's why it's an opinion.

Show me CM9 vs PM9, I've searched - came up empty. I feel the PM9 is an advantage over the CM9, you feel they are equal - whoop-dee-do, so be it.

I sleep good at night, as you do - let it go.

[JimC]

i'll say whatever i believe, and i believe the pm9 is better and will continue saying so, thank you.

+1 :d

[JFootin]

Here is the recent post from HadEmAll:
http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=98665&postcount=28

Here is the thread titled "Velocity difference between Polygonal vs Rifled barrels?" where he and others get into more detail:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=76975&highlight=CW40#post76975

Some good information.

[1radman]

I like my CM9 more every time I shoot it. Now's the time to get one. Prices have dropped, extra magazine promo, and better avialability. Oh BTW I have also seen real world results showing equal and even slightly higher velocity from c series vs p series Kahrs. And yes there are actually some reputable people on the www who have no reason to skew their results. Don't get me wrong, the PM9 is beautiful and I'd love to have one in black with NS but if money is a consideration the CM9 is the best bargain for the intended purpose of CC.

[1radman]

Thanks for the link JFootin. I knew I had seen that but couldn't find it.