CM9 nosedive-o-matic

[pilotmattk]

First post, first Kahr. Super disappointed right now with the unreliability of my CM9 at 600 rounds (well past break in). It consistently nosedives on the 2nd round out of the mag on both the 7 and 6 round mags. It sometimes has problems feeding the first round (both when releasing slide lock and when slingshoting). Looks like it's going back to Kahr next week. It's not the follower hanging up because at round 2 it is still way below the mag catch hole. I'll follow up here when it gets back from Kahr.

[yqtszhj]

Welcome to the forum. Hang tight just a little bit and someone may give you some issue that they found. It also seems like the mag springs were an issue with nosedives. Either installed backwards from how they should (from the factory I will add) be or they were too long. I just cant remember. My CM9 has been 100% good so hang in there. It will be fixed and you'll love it.

[gb6491]

Welcome to the forums!
Sorry to hear about the issue with your new pistol.
You might want to look over some threads started by Hoghunter. He had similar issue with his CM9.
Kahr fixed it by trimming the recoil spring. Here is the post where he talks about what Kahr did: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8657
Here's the thread about the results: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8657
Regards,
Greg

[hoghunter]

Welcome to the forums!
Sorry to hear about the issue with your new pistol.
You might want to look over some threads started by Hoghunter. He had similar issue with his CM9.
Kahr fixed it by trimming the recoil spring. Here is the post where he talks about what Kahr did: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8657
Here's the thread about the results: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8657
Regards,
Greg


Yes that was me. I did everything I could with the followers and no luck. I had EXACTLY the same issue you had. I put 400 rounds down the pipe before I gave up and sent it back to Kahr. All they did was snip the recoil spring (I have no idea how much because I did not take a pic before I sent it) and it works flawlessly now. No issues at all. 100% PERFECT. If you have not done so, I would recommend at least checking the mag springs first to ensure they are not backwards. When you get it back from Kahr you MUST check you mag springs. All three of my mags were assembled backwards when I got them back from Kahr. You have got a great gun on your hands. I know it does not feel that way right now. I went through the same emotions you are going though. But once you get it back from Kahr it will be fixed and you will love the CM9. Stay positive, let the experts at Kahr fix it for you, and you will be rewarded with a fine pistol.
Feel free to send me a PM if you have questions.
HOGHUNTER

[pilotmattk]

Thanks guys, I've been lurking here for a couple of weeks reading the problems and proposed fixes. I counted my slide spring coils vs. hoghunters and mine is very close (maybe 1/2 coil more on mine). I also checked both my mag springs and they looked okay from the factory, comes off the follower in a straight line when fully seated...


I've had a couple of conversations with Kahr tech support and they're nice guys, but very guarded (don't want to reccomend self fixes). So... Back it goes :( I'll let you guys know what I find out so we have another data-point on the forum.

Thanks,
Matt

[pilotmattk]

Just got off the phone with Kahr to get a shipping label. They say the nosedive is not a known or common issue with the CM9's and that the online accounts of this issue are due to improper loading :19: (use slide lock, don't slingshot). Smells like BS to me as it still occurs on mine when loading per the manual. Hopefully it comes back running great!

[hoghunter]

Just got off the phone with Kahr to get a shipping label. They say the nosedive is not a known or common issue with the CM9's and that the online accounts of this issue are due to improper loading :19: (use slide lock, don't slingshot). Smells like BS to me as it still occurs on mine when loading per the manual. Hopefully it comes back running great!

DISCLAIMER before I reply here. I love my CM9 and am very happy that my pistol was fixed by Kahr. So I only speak facts below.

That said, I can assure you that my issues had nothing to do with loading issues. I always used the slide lock and I always used Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ when I was having issues and after I got it back. There are no other variables in my equation than Kahr cutting the recoil spring due to a timing issue. I can't speak to whether this is a known or common issue other than it was KNOWN to me and it was a COMMON ISSUE with my CM9.

FYI- Now that my CM9 is running flawless I can slingshot the slide without any issues whatsoever. Let Kahr do their magic and you too will be a happy CM9 owner.

[jocko]

Just got off the phone with Kahr to get a shipping label. They say the nosedive is not a known or common issue with the CM9's and that the online accounts of this issue are due to improper loading :19: (use slide lock, don't slingshot). Smells like BS to me as it still occurs on mine when loading per the manual. Hopefully it comes back running great!

haveu given any thought to trying tocut off a half coil of your outter recoil spring to test it out before sending it back. who knows, it might do the job, if not kahr will fix it all kwhen they get it. might save alot of time. not something I normally tell a person to do but kahr has done it on owners guns, so maybe there is something to it. what haveu to loose???

just a suggestion.

[sierrajb]

....what haveu to loose???

just a suggestion.

Jocko, could he lose the "warranty" on the mag that he cuts the spring? Not sure about Kahr's "tinker policy" especially regarding issues like this on new guns. If he tries a self-fix, but it still nosedives, will Kahr still take it back for a free repair? Just curious....:confused:

[jocko]

well kahrs has even told some who can't get the slide to lock back on a new gun to cut off a coil. How canit void warranty, At the worst he willbe told he has to buy a new spring but again kahr is clipping coils off of what is a factory 15 coill cm( spring back to 14 to 14 and half coils,

Wejust had a member who got his cm9 back from kahr and they told him they clipped off some of the rcoil spring and that solved his nosedives. At the time khe had not shot the gun to test out their fix but he and I and many others were skeptical that this fixed the issue. IT DID FIX IT.


I suggested he cut the rcoil spring a tad, and not the magazine.

[Doctorbob]

another nosediver

Hi guys,
I had, as Hoghunter knows, similar issues. I had 4 magazines (6,6,7,8) and three of them would not drop. ALSO, around 175 rounds, I started getting nose dives. So I sent the PM9 back to Kahr. After 4 weeks they returned it with the notification that they replaced the 3 mags that wouldn't drop and reworked the recoil spring.
1. Now all the mags drop
2. The number of nosedives is greatly reduced but one of the mags seems to still have the problem on occasion.

I put 150 more rounds thru the gun using mostly that magazine (one of the 6 rds) and had about 4 nose dives. I've taken it home and used my wife's emory board nail file on the right front edge of the follower and on the top of the follower to 'extend' the ramp. I filed the follower down until, when the empty mag was installed in the gun, the follower would drop straight thru to the chamber without catching on anything - easily making it past the mag release. I've cycled handsful of snap caps thru without a problem. Will take it to the range one more time and see if that magazine is fixed. I had someone watching me load and shoot to check my wrists, grip, form , etc. those seemed OK. If it still has nosedives with the suspect magazine, I'll either raffle it (the mag, not the gun) off, throw it away, or stick it in the drawer after buying a new one.

I confess to being a little miffed about the whole thing. i expected this $600 gun to shoot like a Glock - perfection right out of the box. It didn't. On the other hand, it is easy to carry, easy to shoot (most of the time) and quite accurate. If I can get the reliabilty up, I will add Big Dot sights and happily carry the thing in preference to my G26 (with which I have NEVER had any problem at all) which is a bit klunky to carry easily.

[Thunder71]

The Kahr is not a Glock, it's much smaller - which is the allure of the firearm in general. These guns are built to very tight tolerances... If you want to read up on some ticked off gun owners, check out Kimber.. $1000 on up and they typically take 1000 rounds to break in.

[jocko]

check ur recoil spring. the outter one, the open end of it, see iu by any chance it is grabbing on the recoil rod. If it is, just open that end up a tad until it slides up and down on the recoil rod with ease. U did right in sanding that one follower down to get the clearance needed. It happens, this forum found this issue, not kahr, it is fixable and very easy to test out, I assume u have read the kahr tech section and hit on two good sticky's

#1 lahr lube chart

#2 propper preppingoif ur new kahr.

by the way my G19 had to go back once. They are great guns, they are big guns compared to kahrs, they are not infalliable. . I love my glock, I love my kahr more for it is in my front pocket 24/7. I am very sure that if your glock would fit in ur front pocket with the ease of a kahr, u would have never bought a kahr in the first place.

[gb6491]

The Kahr is not a Glock, it's much smaller - which is the allure of the firearm in general. These guns are built to very tight tolerances... If you want to read up on some ticked off gun owners, check out Kimber.. $1000 on up and they typically take 1000 rounds to break in.
That certainly hasn't been my experience with Kimber, but I've only owned two: a BP10 and a TLE II. I bought the BP10 used and it never gave me a problem while I owned it. The guy who bought it swears by it. The TLEII had two failures to feed in the first magazine which were entirely my fault. I had went right from the sales register to the range without stopping to lube it. Once lubed, the gun worked to beautifully shooting right to it's sights. It hasn't had a bobble since and is one of the best shooting 1911's I've owned or fired.

BTW, add me to the list of folks who've had "perfection" fail miserably right out of the box. My G30SF was one of the many that had the "failure to return to battery" issue.

Regards,
Greg

[Rainman48314]

First post, first Kahr. Super disappointed right now with the unreliability of my CM9 at 600 rounds (well past break in). It consistently nosedives on the 2nd round out of the mag on both the 7 and 6 round mags. It sometimes has problems feeding the first round (both when releasing slide lock and when slingshoting). Looks like it's going back to Kahr next week. It's not the follower hanging up because at round 2 it is still way below the mag catch hole. I'll follow up here when it gets back from Kahr.Hopefully this helps ease your mind. It involves another brand but serves a point. My two most beloved guns both had to go back to the manufacturer. Each went once, each is trusted as my carry piece.

The first gun is a Sig P238 .380 Auto. The first unit I had was returned because I thought it needed tweaking of the extractor. Sig actually found a crack in the frame and sent me a new gun. It needed even more tweaking and back it went. Since it was returned, it has been flawless. I carry it without hesitation. I shoot it twice per week.

The second gun was also a Sig, a 1911 RCS .45 ACP, bought used this month. After 100 rounds, the grip safety failed and from the start, the last round in both OEM mags failed to feed. It was checked in at Sig on a Friday and back in my hands the next Thursday. It is a joy to shoot and it functuions flawlessly on ball or HP.

There's no telling how this will turn out but try to stay patient for a short while longer.

[Zebulun]

What is a "nose dive" been shooting since I was 13, I'm 64, a veteran and own several pistols.
I may have had a nose dive and not known it.
As with all forums we must remember not to assume that a malfunction is indicative of the overall quality and reliability of any machine.
My CM9 is fab!

[gb6491]

What is a "nose dive" been shooting since I was 13, I'm 64, a veteran and own several pistols.
I may have had a nose dive and not known it.
As with all forums we must remember not to assume that a malfunction is indicative of the overall quality and reliability of any machine.
My CM9 is fab!
When the slide strips a round from a magazine, the stripper rail is pushing on the very top edge of the case head; very often this causes the front/nose of the cartridge to rotate/dip/dive down slightly (hence "nose dive"). If the pistol is functioning correctly, when the nose of the round hits the feed way it will pop up it and into the chamber. A "nose dive failure" occurs when the round does not climb the feed way but becomes jammed against it or slightly below it on the frame.
You can see how a round nose dives during feeding in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1ntMjiH6I

Regards,
Greg

[Zebulun]

Got it thanks. Forever learning.

[Doctorbob]

check ur recoil spring. the outter one, the open end of it, see iu by any chance it is grabbing on the recoil rod. If it is, just open that end up a tad until it slides up and down on the recoil rod with ease. U did right in sanding that one follower down to get the clearance needed. It happens, this forum found this issue, not kahr, it is fixable and very easy to test out, I assume u have read the kahr tech section and hit on two good sticky's

#1 lahr lube chart

#2 propper preppingoif ur new kahr.

by the way my G19 had to go back once. They are great guns, they are big guns compared to kahrs, they are not infalliable. . I love my glock, I love my kahr more for it is in my front pocket 24/7. I am very sure that if your glock would fit in ur front pocket with the ease of a kahr, u would have never bought a kahr in the first place.

Took it back out to the range today and got 4 nosedives in about 100 rounds thru the single 6 rd magazine. Back to the emory board and more filing.

BUT WHEN I WENT TO CLEAN THE GUN THE 'CAPTIVE' RECOIL SPRING AND GUIDE ROD DISASSEMBLED THEMSELVES. (PART 5) IT APPEARS THAT THE GUIDE ROD HAS A THREADED END AND THAT IT MUST SCREW INTO SOMETHING BUT THERE WAS NO 'THING' FOR IT TO SCREW INTO. I'M GUESSING THAT IT WAN'T REPLACED DURING THE 'REWORK' THAT KAHR DID OR IT CAME OFF WHEN I FIRED A HYUNDRED ROUNDS THRU IT. NOW THE GUN IS BACK ON THE BENCH UNTIL I CAN CONTACT KAHR ON MONDAY.
COLOR ME FRUSTRATED....

[wyntrout]

Kahr could save some money if they just kept a supply of those nuts that go on the end, and send anyone who needs them a couple. It would be cheaper than a whole new recoil spring assembly... cheaper than the shipping to send you a couple.

Ask Kahr to send you a couple.

Or, in the future make your own:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3934

Wynn:)

[jocko]

My bet wyn is that those recoil assembly come to kahr from an outside vendor and kahr just doesn't keep any of those parts around. I woold be very surprised if kahr assembls the recoil assembly..

Kahr has some loose nuts there, if u get my point..