PM9-What`s better?

[Dietrich]

I know that the Rohrbaugh is much more expensive,but is it better? Is there any pocket size 9mm better than the PM9.I know this will generate some emotional responses and by all means,bring `em on,but as far as function and reliability goes,what`s better?Some of you people are plenty savvy,technically speaking,and I especially want you to chime in.Personally,I don`t think any other handgun in the PM9`s class is better, but I want to know if there is.:bump2:

[Chief Joseph]

I heard the Rohrbaugh wasn't designed to shoot many rounds through, it's to load and only use if you need it for defense. I want a gun I can practice with and also use for defense. That's a lot of money on a gun that can't stand up to shooting more than a few hundred rounds through.

[hsart]

Great question!! When you say 'better' let's define what better can be. For me it is a combination of concealability and knowing beyond question that when I pull the trigger it responds. I can't imagine what would be better than a PM9.

[Vinikahr]

From their catalog (http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/downloads/owners_manual.pdf):

"We believe that the design choices we have made reflect the priorities appropriate
to a self-defense weapon. To minimize size and weight, we have chosen
basic materials that are both strong enough to insure proper operation, yet still
light. One respect in which these choices will affect you, the owner, will be in
the need to periodically replace the pistol’s recoil spring (recommended after 200
rounds), as the force of recoil of a 9mm parabellum cartridge in a pistol with this
total weight results in wear on the recoil spring. Another aspect to realize is that
the “perceived” force of recoil of the Rohrbaugh pistol will be greater than in a
full size semi-automatic. Reducing the “mass” of the pistol results in greater
perceived recoil. We don’t see this as a problem, as the pistol is designed for
self-defense, not comfort on a target range."

[fitzgood]

I didn't know anything about Kahrs let alone the PM9 until I started searching (surfing) with search terms like "the best concealed carry pistol". Time after time and thread after thread the PM9 kept coming up. I don't know if they are the best but I know that there are a lot of people out there that think so and I love mine :D

[Arizona T]

Kahr PM9 147 DA Bears 7

Kahr wins !!

[mr surveyor]

although I really love my CW9, and still have a lust for the MK9 that was first on my list, I also love my Kimber, Sig, Beretta, S&W, Ruger, Kel-Tec, .... (others), I would also like to have a Rohrbaugh as well as a Seecamp. Yes, the Rohrbaugh does come with suggested spring replacement recommendations, and the Seecamp pistols come with very specific ammunition recommendations. As with all quality manufacturers, including Kahr, certain things are recommended by the manufacturer for optimum performance. High quality designed and machined handguns are works of art, and if properly used and maintained will last several generations (I still prefer steel). I don't know of many manufacturers, other than Kahr, that recommend that the handgun be charged from slide-lock. Obviously, on that note, Kahr recognized that many new users may tend to "ride the slide" and cause their newly purchased handgun to fail to go into battery. Kudos to Kahr for catching that and noting it in their manual. The same for Rohrbaugh in recognizing that by trimming their handguns to the very edge of reliability in size/caliber ratio, that the recoil springs would take a beating, and Larry Seecamp designing his pistols around what was, at the time, the best all around defensive ammunition on the market.

There's a whole lot to consider when making comparisons to firearms that are on the very cutting edge of performance in the size to caliber ratio market.

Just my opinions... but I like guns in general... particularly those made in the USA (although I do have a couple from Europe... but none from south of the border, and no more commie guns)

surv

[wyntrout]

I just got back from the range last night ~ 2 1/2 hours firing .22 TPH, PM9, K9, and S&W 645. The most fun and most accurate was the new-to-me PM9. I put about 150 rounds of 5 different kinds of ammo through it with surprising-to-me accuracy. While the K9 is probably the best looking and natural feeling gun that I've ever had (of many), the PM9 looks great (DLC), conceals easily, and handles well, considering the shorter grip. I'll post a range report.
Wynn:)

[Vinikahr]

I just got back from the range last night ~ 2 1/2 hours firing .22 TPH, PM9, K9, and S&W 645. The most fun and most accurate was the new-to-me PM9. I put about 150 rounds of 5 different kinds of ammo through it with surprising-to-me accuracy. While the K9 is probably the best looking and natural feeling gun that I've ever had (of many), the PM9 looks great (DLC), conceals easily, and handles well, considering the shorter grip. I'll post a range report.
Wynn:)

Thanks for that report, I am looking forward to shooting my PM9.:59:

[deadhead1971]

There are the Walther PPS and the Taurus "Slim"--both 9mm

Kahr likes to compare the PM9 to a "block" 26, but there is no real comparrison. The 26 is a double stack magazine with big fat grips. The best competitors of the PM 9 are the Walther and Taurus.

[jocko]

If u want the absolutle smallest. The Rohrbaugh R9 is it. Price is worth the quality. that being said, they are very ammo sensitive. Find the right round that works and stay with it. this IMO is definiltely a gun to shoot seldom and carry often, . Recoil springs do need to be replaced very often. It is a handfull of a gun to shoot also. IMO the only thing it offers is size and weight, but it is a quality made gun

there was a nice gun test a few yeas back done by GUN TEST magazine, who usually calls them the way thie seem um. It was apples and oranges witht he PM( and The Rohrbaugh. Other than weight it was the PM9 over every thing else. EVERYTHING..

that being said, if I could find one for $600 I would buy one, just to have, for it is a quality gun, just needs amot more TLC IMO.

[medezyner]

Kahr likes to compare the PM9 to a "block" 26, but there is no real comparrison. The 26 is a double stack magazine with big fat grips. The best competitors of the PM 9 are the Walther and Taurus.

I thought it was clever calling it a "Block" but you’re right, they should compare the PM9 to other single stacks. Add Kel-Tec to that comparison list, although definitely not in the same league as PM9.

[TxKahr]

From their catalog (http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/downloads/owners_manual.pdf):

"One respect in which these choices will affect you, the owner, will be in
the need to periodically replace the pistol’s recoil spring (recommended after 200
rounds), as the force of recoil of a 9mm parabellum cartridge in a pistol with this
total weight results in wear on the recoil spring. "

Does anyone have the numbers on the PM9? How many rounds before the recoil spring should be replaced?

TxKahr

[deadhead1971]

Jocko can answer that; he has thousands of rounds through his.

I replaced mine after 785 rounds. I was not having any problems, but I had a little problem with the guide rod flange, and Kahr sent me a complete assembly--both springs and new flange. So I said, what the heck, I'll just go ahead and replace everything.

I also ordered a complete spare assembly. I would get a spare and wait until you start having problems (jams, FTF, FTE).

I have a friend who just got his FFL and opened up a gun shop. I was telling him to get some PM9s, and that they would sell like hot cakes. I said, have you seen a Kahr? He said no. Then he paused. he said are they those "thin and sexy" guns? I said, yes. :roll:

Nice going Kahr. Your ads help folks like this.

[TxKahr]

Thanks deadhead. Did Kahr send you parts under warranty or did you have to pay for them?

[deadhead1971]

They sent it to me under warranty. I e-mailed them the pics and explained what happened. I also ordered a spare. I just asked for the front missing piece, and they sent the whole dang thing.

See the pics here: http://kahrtalk.com/kahr-tech/863-confounded-flange.html

[jocko]

recoil springs are cheap to replace. Just order the outter spring and you wll be OK. that inner assemply including the recoil rod will last a very very very very long time. Replace the outer over 1000+ rounds, just because they are cheap to do so. Always remember the open end of the recoil springs goes towards the front of the slide.

[Dietrich]

There are the Walther PPS and the Taurus "Slim"--both 9mm

Kahr likes to compare the PM9 to a "block" 26, but there is no real comparrison. The 26 is a double stack magazine with big fat grips. The best competitors of the PM 9 are the Walther and Taurus.
O.K.,getting back to the topic,who has expertise involving the Walther and the Taurus.How do they stack up against the PM9?

[bossbird]

I have a Rohrbaugh R9s and the Kahr PM9. Both are top quality handguns. No way for me to say which one is the best. The R9 has a loaded wt. of 17.5 oz (6 rds) and the PM9 has a loaded wt. of 19.1 oz (6 rds). The R9 is slightly smaller in LxWxH than the PM9. The R9 is much harder to point and shoot and it also will not shoot +p ammo. The changing of recoil springs after about 250 rds is not a big deal unless you are trying to use it as a range gun which it is not. The PM9 has a crimson trace laser available, the R9 does not. The PM9 I think cost me about $625 (can't remember exactly) and the R9 set me back $1150. So if a person was to purchase only one of these two the PM9 would give you more for the money. However, the R9 is one fine handgun if you find an extra $1000 plus laying around. :eek:

[jocko]

My PM9 loaded weights 18 ounces. weighed it many times on postal type scales. Pretty close the the R9 in weight..

I agree the R9 lacks some of the extra bells and whistles the pM9 has, auto slide lock, wide variety of sights . more user and range friendly. +p shootable, but the R9 is just also iIMO one fine pocket gun and if you buy it for what it was designed for, it will serve you well. Most R9 shooters that I have known (and that was few) did alot of study before buying, so they knew going into the purchase that it was ammo sensitive, no+P and not the most pleasant gun to shoot but they knew it was quality and very very pocketable. Like I Have said if I could find one for $600, I would own one. I buy a gun to shoot also, so maybe an R9 would not be suitable for me either, as my PM9 just is like the duracell battery, it just goes on and on and on.

[getsome]

Hello all, I think the PM9 wins hands down...It is accurate and when broken in, very reliable... To try and answer Dietrich's questen, I have owned 2 different .380 Walther PPKs pistols, one was a pre Smith & Wesson Walther and the second a S&W product...I hated both of them and really tried to make them work for me as I really liked the look and history of the gun...Both guns had the absolute worst trigger pull of any gun I haver had...Felt like a 15 pound rough pull....Both guns were jamomatics with any ammo I tried...I had a gunsmith try and fix the first one but if anything he made it jam worse.... I sold both and never looked back...Now about the Rohrbaugh...That is one nice looking pistol but it should be for that price...I have never seen one in person only in pictures but it looks very much like a Seecamp clone only in 9MM I have had a Seecamp .32 pistol which was super nice...It would shoot WW silver tips, Speer jhp and Federal jhp and never jam but you couldnt hit anything over 6-8 feet away...It has no sights but it is designed as a very close range piece...I would think the Rohrbaugh would be very much the same if only worse due to the recoil...I have seen the Taurus slim 9 at a gun store and it looks nice but don't know how it shoots...The Taurus products all seem nice but I hear their customer service isn't anywhere near what Kahr, Ruger or S&W offer...The only advantage they have is in price and I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for most of the time....

[bossbird]

I believe Dietrich may have been referring to the new Walther PPS 9mm. I have touched one at a Gander Mt. store but do not own one. It did have a good grip feel. It appears to be slightly larger than the PM9. I do like the horse-shoe type mag release under the trigger guard as my thumb seems to want to "bump" the PM9 mag release some of the time. I know I am in the minority on that issue. Looks like a player.

[jocko]

getsome's commments seems to cover this matter really well. All nice gun, all do certain things differenty and yes we all have our particular likes and dislikes about every gun made.

bottm line you buy a gun, if you don't like it, you should peddle it and find the one that rocks your boat and stay with it. i have never owne dther R9 rohrbaugh nor have I ever had one in my hands. It is top quality and is one of those carry often and shoot seldom guns. If you can accept that (which I can't by the way) then it is a damn nice gun. The Rohrbaugh guys are as devout as us Kahr guys are..

[alnitak]

So, I'll give my quick response, and then maybe chime in later with a more detailed explanation.

I did entensive research and investigation (including criteria, use, etc. analysis) when trying to find my CCW. It came down to Rohrbaugh and Kahr. Here's my bottom line.

The Rohrbaugh is the best pocket pistol out there -- virtually the size of a P3AT, shoots 9mm, is accurate (see the 25 yd video) and is reliable (if you shoot it's preferred load of Gold Dots). I just loved my brother's, and if I could have afforded it, I would have had one. I went with the PM9 as the affordable, and slightly bigger, brother. I believe the Kahr is the best subcompact out there that also gives you (in many but not all cases) pocket carry as an option. Though there are many other fine compacts (XD9sc, G26, PPS, S&W M&Pc, etc.) and subcompacts (Taurus slim 709) out there, I don't consider them realistic pocket guns, though some would disagree.

The Kahr gives you advantages that the Rohrbaugh doesn't, such as ability to use as a range gun, +P, ammo variability, night sights, etc. If you don't need to carry in a pocket, then I would consider other pistols rather than the Rohrbaugh. If your main carry is pocket, the Rohrbaugh is the best (in 9mm), followed by the Kahr (though it has limitations -- e.g., front carry in jeans, while possible, isn't really feasible when you consider the ability to draw out of the small-mouthed pockets and printing). Only you can decide your needs and carry profile.

I personally don't consider the Rohrbaugh limitations really limitations, especially for a microcompact engineered with tight tolerances, intended for pocket, etc. Buy a few extra springs, use the very good SD Gold Dot ammo and you are set to go.

[bossbird]

Alnitak.........Your comments are excellent. Great summary of the pros and cons.

[jocko]

rohrbaugh or PM9 in the front pocket will print, and neither will be a fast draw gun coming out of the front pocket. I can and do carry my PM9 24/7 in my jeans front pocket, It is not a fast draw area but again I do not have to dress to carry either, and the element of surprise to the BG is the most important, IMO.

The PM9 is a far more versatile gun and it can be use extensively for range use, auto slide lock and ability of different night sights plus +P capable is three big plus's for a kahr, let alone price also, which IMO should not be a real factor if you want a particular gun.. The Rohrbaugh is the smallest and lightest 9mm on the market, no one can argue that nor needs to, the facts speak for themselves. they certainly are far more ammo sensitve to any kahr but again that should be no issue if your just gonna pocket carry it and shoot it seldom. Shoot the ammo they specify and I am sure it will work great.

[deadhead1971]

I pocket carry either the LCP or the PM9.

I always tuck my shirts in so inside the belt holsters are not an option. In jeans, it's a little harder to fast draw the PMP 9.

In khaki dress slacks, I can out draw Doc Holliday.

[Chuck54]

I pretty much quit looking after I got my PM9. It has been very accurate and reliable. It is of the VA**** series and has been 100% from it's first day on the range.

I have picked up and handled a PPS in a store but was not impressed enough to even consider purchase. The Roughbar I picked and fondled was impressive but it's price and durability considerations made seem less than desirable for me.

I have lost track of my round count on my PM9 .... it is not picky about ammo either. I'm not a fan of the 147 grain bullets in 9mm so I do not know if my pistol will handle them or not. It has run fine with; 90 grain Corbon,115WWB,115Lawman brass,124Gold Dot standard and +P,124 HST +P,124Golden Saber there may have been some others that I have overlooked.

[jocko]

It willshoot 147 grain ammo ok also. I shoot it alot in WWB range ammo and never had an issue. I just like the 124 gold dot and the 125 gr corbon for defense. the rohrbaugh will not shoot 147 grain ..

[TxKahr]

My PM9 loaded weights 18 ounces. weighed it many times on postal type scales. Pretty close the the R9 in weight..


I weighed mine with 3 115G FMJs and 3 147G JHPs (alternating) and it came in right at 19.1 oz, like another poster mentioned. You must be using a lighter bullet???

The gun was 14.8 oz empty with no mag and the mag with the same bullets mentioned above was just over 4.25 oz.

I was comparing it to my Glock 26 which is 26.25 oz loaded with 10 alternating rounds.

TxKahr

[luka]

I owned a Rohrbaugh when they first came out, they were around $600 dollars, But, when you have to take one apart you will be Glad you own a Kahr, plus you can NOT shoot plus-P, and when you place them side by side the Rohrbaugh is NO WAY worth $500 more then the Kahr PM9. The price of the Rohrbaugh went up the same way Gas did, (Speculation).

I hope GAP Enterprises come out with a Finger Rest Extension for the PM9, like they did for Glock. I called but they said Not Enough call on it for Kahr.

[bossbird]

I weighed mine with 3 115G FMJs and 3 147G JHPs (alternating) and it came in right at 19.1 oz, like another poster mentioned. You must be using a lighter bullet???

The gun was 14.8 oz empty with no mag and the mag with the same bullets mentioned above was just over 4.25 oz.

I was comparing it to my Glock 26 which is 26.25 oz loaded with 10 alternating rounds.

TxKahr

TxKahr, thanks for sharing your results with the weights. My scales also showed 19.1 oz (6rds of 124gr Speer Gold Dot) for the PM9. To my very limited knowledge, the PM9 is the 3rd lightest modern 9mm. The R9 first at 17.5 oz (loaded) and Keltec PF9 second at 17.6 oz (loaded). The PM9 gives you more for the money and is more versatile.

[TxKahr]

I hope GAP Enterprises come out with a Finger Rest Extension for the PM9, like they did for Glock. I called but they said Not Enough call on it for Kahr.

I have the Pearce Grip Extension for mine. They were $12.95 for two at my LGS, but I saw them online for $10.95.

Kahr Grip Extensions - Product Page (http://www.pearcegrip.com/kahr.htm)


http://www.pearcegrip.com/images/KharPM9.gif

[luka]

I like the GAP Finger Rest Extension Grips, have them on my Glock 27 & 33,sure wish they made them for the kahr, go on there web sight and take a look.

G A P H O M E (http://www.concealablecontrol.com)

[Lefty Shotlow]

Had a Walther PPS. Tried VERY hard to like it since I overpaid when they first came out. Well made, easy take down, but very picky on ammo. Had it back twice and still fought FTE's and FTF's. Have a CW9 now which is a better shooter and has been utterly reliable for a couple of thousand rounds. Working now to dispose of some Glocks to acquire a PM9.

[TxKahr]

I like the GAP Finger Rest Extension Grips, have them on my Glock 27 & 33,sure wish they made them for the kahr, go on there web sight and take a look.

G A P H O M E (http://www.concealablecontrol.com)

I saw those before I bought the Pearce Extensions for my Glock 26. I was not sure I was going to like them because they are so small and I did not see how they were going to give me enough grip for such a fat gun.

Since I really liked the Pearce Grips on my Glock, I had no problems buying them for the Kahr.

TxKahr