+P+ vs +P

[HadEmAll]

I started feeling mildly guilty about using Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ in my PM9, so bought some Corbon 115 grain +P to compare velocities.

This morning, 75 degrees, 5 round averages, PM9:

Winchester 115grain +P+ 1200 fps on the money. (Last range session I was getting 1217 fps)

Corbon 115 grain +P 1222 fps

The Corbon fed, fired, and ejected just fine, so I'm now carrying it in my PM9. Not sure I'll reorder any since it and the Win appear to perform about the same, but at least temporarily I'm going by the book.

[jocko]

nice report. I wonder if this +P+ sh-t is not way over hyped to suck us gun nuts in. Evidkently in ur tests the corbon +P held its own.

[OldLincoln]

I read on the internet.... that +P+ doesn't have a standard and so can be whatever they make it. However, I've also read that Buffalo Bore +P+ is very hot and not recommended in Kahrs.

[jocko]

ur dead right, so I quess they can actualy take their standard hot rounds and repackage it in a fancy box and call it "the penetrator" and we will pay $5 bucks more for the box over the same rounds in a cardboard plain box. My my the power of advertisng..

I don'tthink kahr or many others recommend +P+ ammo due to just what u stated. If here is no parameters to the round etc, then why should the gun maker get involved with it..

[HadEmAll]

My my the power of advertisng..

There's a lot to that. I once heard of an Asian guy who had never made pistols before, but wanted to get started. He figured that if he called his new pistol line something that sounded German, people would associate that with precision and be more likely to buy these handguns. He came up with something that sounded like car. Can't remember the final name. :)

[jocko]

can u give me a better clue???

[HadEmAll]

From an interview by Massad Ayood to Justin Moon:

Ayoob: Where did the name Kahr come from?

Moon: When it came to marketing the pistol, I did not feel that Saeilo would be a "catchy" name to put on my gun. I wanted a name that was short, easy to remember, and symbolic of the high quality of manufacture. Given Germany's renown for engineering prowess and quality, I wanted a name that sounded German. That's how I came up with "Kahr."

[getsome]

Well at least he didn't go with Fordoomensnokeinboomerhardiner....Kahr is fine by me...:cool:

[HadEmAll]

I KNOW Jocko was being tongue-in-cheek about the clue, sure he knew the story well, but I did see somebody on here the other day say "Mr. Kahr, I'm not happy" about progress on his returned pistol, so thought I would give the story.

Amazing that he was so up front about the "fake" name.

[Ikeo74]

Back to the subject: "P" stands for PRESSURE. It has nothing to do with "velosity" except usually when you have more pressure you get more velosity. Now +P means the ammo when fired creats pressure at the high end of recommended pressure for that cal of bullet. Now, pay attention here, +P+ loads when fired create internal pressures "over" the recommended safe limits of the caliber of the bullet you are shooting. This does not mean it will develope more "velosity" than a +P load. It means it will develope more "PRESSURE" than a +P load. So, it comes down to this, when you are shooting +P+ ammo you are not improving on the effectiveness of that bullet. It means you have a greater chance of the increased pressure causing damage to you or your gun by a gun failure because of the increased pressure. Now the kicker here is this:
+P+ is a "WARNING" that this ammo may cause damage to you or your gun. It is not a bragging comment that this ammo will outperform regular pressure or +P loads. :eek: That is why gun manufactures "DO NOT" recommend +P+ ammo.

[Ikeo74]

Before you buy +P+ ammo make sure your gun can shoot it. Only modern firearms are strong enough.

[TheTman]

Why buy ammo that has no standards, could be anywhere from standard pressure up to whatever they decide to go with. If I was going to try +P+ I think I'd make my own ammo, and experment with a few more grains at a time. I'd want to test it for accuracy, and FPS/FPE.

[jmurch]

IMO 100% reliability on an SD gun overrides anything else. If the second round won't chamber it's a club. Fancy sights (on an 7yd SD gun?), designer ammo, etc. have no place (again IMO) on an SD gun.

[ltxi]

IMO 100% reliability on an SD gun overrides anything else.........

Which argues for a revolver. Or, just possibly, at least a Glock.

[LaP]

[QUOTE=jmurch;105778] If the second round won't chamber it's a club. QUOTE]

I consider it a rock. I throw it at the bad guy.

Go with a revolver.... there's a good reason for the old saying:
"Five for Sure.";)

[Barth]

Before you buy +P+ ammo make sure your gun can shoot it. Only modern firearms are strong enough.

I bought some Winchester +P+ 110 gr 38 special ammo for my S&W 342 the other day.
At the advise of Mas, I contacted S&W to make sure this ammo was ok for the +P rated gun.
They pulled an Amy Winehouse on me and said No, No, No.

Looks like I'll have to run it in my S&W 640-1/357.

[Chuck54]

five for sure .......... unless a bullet backs out and locks the cylinder ...... has not happened to me, but then I have had zero malfunctions with either of my Kahr pistols.

[TriggerMan]

Back to the subject: "P" stands for PRESSURE. It has nothing to do with "velosity" except usually when you have more pressure you get more velosity. Now +P means the ammo when fired creats pressure at the high end of recommended pressure for that cal of bullet. Now, pay attention here, +P+ loads when fired create internal pressures "over" the recommended safe limits of the caliber of the bullet you are shooting. This does not mean it will develope more "velosity" than a +P load. It means it will develope more "PRESSURE" than a +P load. So, it comes down to this, when you are shooting +P+ ammo you are not improving on the effectiveness of that bullet. It means you have a greater chance of the increased pressure causing damage to you or your gun by a gun failure because of the increased pressure. Now the kicker here is this:
+P+ is a "WARNING" that this ammo may cause damage to you or your gun. It is not a bragging comment that this ammo will outperform regular pressure or +P loads. :eek: That is why gun manufactures "DO NOT" recommend +P+ ammo.

I think your comment that +P+ is a warning is a great assessment.

But, I'm troubled by something. Are you're saying that even if bullet weight is held constant at, either 115 gr, 124 gr or 147 gr, that there is not a linear relationship with muzzle velocity and pressure? Where does the energy go? Could my physics knowledge be out if date? Maybe someone who passed Physics II can chime in.

I'm happy shooting standard pressure ammo from a factory in the USA. I will often carry +P Gold Dot 124 gr in my PM9.

[Ikeo74]

I think your comment that +P+ is a warning is a great assessment.

But, I'm troubled by something. Are you're saying that even if bullet weight is held constant at, either 115 gr, 124 gr or 147 gr, that there is not a linear relationship with muzzle velocity and pressure? Where does the energy go? Could my physics knowledge be out if date? Maybe someone who passed Physics II can chime in.

I'm happy shooting standard pressure ammo from a factory in the USA. I will often carry +P Gold Dot 124 gr in my PM9.

There is a relationship and you "do" get more velosity with also more pressure, but some people think +P is high velosity normal loads and +P+ is even higher velosity and more desireable for self defense, without taking into consideration that they are getting into extreme pressures that can damage some of these small defense guns and cause injury to the shooter. I am trying to inform new shooters (and some old) that extreme pressure +P+ loads are dangerious in small guns or in older early production guns not made to todays standards. The +P is also above recommended pressures. High Velosity can be obtained by using a slower burning powder that can still produce the high velosities without the high pressures. Modern reloading charts list pressures for all their load data and can be used to compare pressure to velosity when loading. Desireable and best self defense loads are the ones that produce high velosity without high +P or +P+ pressures. When buying ammo check the vel printed on the box of non high pressure ammo.:israel:

[muggsy]

There's a lot to that. I once heard of an Asian guy who had never made pistols before, but wanted to get started. He figured that if he called his new pistol line something that sounded German, people would associate that with precision and be more likely to buy these handguns. He came up with something that sounded like car. Can't remember the final name. :)

There was a Japanese car maker who went to the people at Mercedes Benz for a name for his new product line. The people at Mercedes ask how long they had to come up with a name. The Japanese manufacturer said that they planned to go from the drawing board to the showroom in a week. The Germans said, "Dat soon?" and the rest was history.

[muggsy]

IMO 100% reliability on an SD gun overrides anything else. If the second round won't chamber it's a club. Fancy sights (on an 7yd SD gun?), designer ammo, etc. have no place (again IMO) on an SD gun.

Well spoken.

[muggsy]

[QUOTE=jmurch;105778] If the second round won't chamber it's a club. QUOTE]

I consider it a rock. I throw it at the bad guy.

Go with a revolver.... there's a good reason for the old saying:
"Five for Sure.";)

A revolver can malfunction. That's why you should carry two.

[jocko]

no doubt if u don't trust your semi, buy a revolver, they can all be perfect until that next pull of the trigger and then WOULD U BET YOUR LIFE ON IT????

[onegun]

A revolver can malfunction. That's why you should carry two.

Yep!

I have routinely shot +P in my Kahrs, SIGs, and revolvers -- but never +P+.

[JFootin]

There was a Japanese car maker who went to the people at Mercedes Benz for a name for his new product line. The people at Mercedes ask how long they had to come up with a name. The Japanese manufacturer said that they planned to go from the drawing board to the showroom in a week. The Germans said, "Dat soon?" and the rest was history.

Muggsy, that is a variation on a joke I thought up many years ago! The original joke didn't have the Germans, just a team of idea people. They had been working for days, but when the CEO told them they had better have a new name by 5pm or they were all fired, they said "Dat soon?!" I have a sequel: A few years later, the car maker was having some sort of identity crisis and decided they needed to change their name. When the CEO met with the idea team, he reviewed their ideas one after another and kept saying "That's a nice un". Then it dawned on him: "nice un", "nice un", "Nissan!"

[MO_Soldier]

Ikeo74 is EXACTLY right!

[KMA]

I never shoot +p+ ammo; +p+ ammo is not SAMMI rated. In other words, you do not have a clue about what you are shooting.

[Barth]

I never shoot +p+ ammo; +p+ ammo is not SAMMI rated. In other words, you do not have a clue about what you are shooting.

I've got a couple boxes of Winchester Ranger +P+ 127 9mm.
I do have a clue about it, and that's what bothers me - LOL!

The SAAMI pressure limit 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 35,000 psi
The SAAMI pressure limit 9×19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 38,500 psi
The NOT SAAMI pressure limit 9×19 mm Parabellum +P+ is set at 42,000 psi

In perspective -
The SAAMI pressure limit for the .357 SIG is set at 40,000 psi

It's my G27, that's basically a G33/357, with a Storm Lake G27 40-9mm
conversion barrel, but still....
The barrel being 9mm in a 40 looks like a thick Bull Barrel, but still...

Emailed Storm Lake about the ammo and their barrel.
Response was if it's SAAMI rated ammo? You're good to go!

Well +P+ in not.
Looks like it stays in the box - LOL

[sharpetop]

I've fired 20 or so rounds of Federal BPLE 115gr +P+ out of my CW9 and it didn't seem any different than Federal HST 124gr +P. I've never heard or read anything about +P+ ammo causing a gun to blow apart. I don't think that Federal, Winchester, Speer [now owned by Federal], etc. would risk the liability of selling over pressured ammo. I also think that the gun manufacturers lawyers came up with +P+ disclaimer for "CYA" puposes.

IMHO, I think it was a marketing scheme to sell ammo when the "Wonder 9's" first hit the streets. What police officer or armed citizen wouldn't want the latest and greatest 9mm ammo? In the U.S., the 9mm was considered pretty anemic 25-30 years ago. Bullet technology has changed a lot.