View Full Version : What should you do or not do after you've shot someone in self defense?
Scoundrel
10-31-2011, 07:53 PM
Disclaimer: I know that this topic is highly subjective, and that there are no ironclad right and wrong answers, and that there are thousands of variables including everything from what type of ammo is used to what the jury had for breakfast that morning.
I also suspect that this topic is probably discussed far and wide on internet forums, and has most probably been discussed here on kahrtalk.com. However, I performed a couple of searches and did not quickly find it.
I've wondered about the things I should or should not do if I ever have to use my weapon. I just saw an advertisement in a magazine regarding a book on the subject. I went and looked up some reviews on that book.
I have no delusions about whether this thread will stay focused to my specific question, or very quickly gain its own momentum and direction. But I want to start it off asking if anyone has read this book, and has thoughts about the facts presented in the book, and/or the subjective advice offered in the book.
Here is a link to the book and some reviews on it: http://www.amazon.com/After-You-Shoot-Your-perps/dp/1889632260
Thunder71
10-31-2011, 08:04 PM
The only thing I will say is that I was in fear for my life and I will cooperate 100% once I speak to my attorney.
Other than that, keep your mouth shut.
Scoundrel
10-31-2011, 08:09 PM
The only thing I will say is that I was in fear for my life and I will cooperate 100% once I speak to my attorney.
Other than that, keep your mouth shut.
911 Operator: 911, what are you reporting?
Thunder71: I was in fear for my life and I will cooperate 100% once I speak to my attorney.
911 Operator: ???
JFootin
10-31-2011, 08:09 PM
Ditto to what Thunder said.
yqtszhj
10-31-2011, 08:15 PM
They said they were going to kill me, and now i would like to speak to my attorney.
entoptics
10-31-2011, 08:19 PM
1st = 911
2nd = step away from the scene
3rd = call lawyer (don't wait for the cops to show up and read rights)
4th = get professional counseling. Who knows what sort of scars this sort of thing will leave on the survivor.
I don't mean flee obviously. Go into another room, outside, etc. You do not want to accidentally tamper with ANYTHING at the scene. You also do not want your memory of the experience contaminated with the aftermath.
Witness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence generally, and that includes the person who does the shooting. Our brains are amazingly seamless at filling in details (often false) when asked to recall past events.
Do not tell the cops anything other than the most basic details, and try not to say anything emotional or speculative beyond "I was scared for my life because he came at me with a gun" (e.g. "I think he was trying to rob me" "He looks like a gang banger" "I think he was high on drugs" etc. etc.)
You're testimony will be much more thorough and useful after you've calmed down and spoken to an attorney. The cops understand this and should not pressure you.
OldLincoln
10-31-2011, 08:32 PM
You say the following:
1. That man attacked me and I was in fear for my life.
2. Point out witnesses and say these people witnessed the incident.
3. Point out any physical evidence, e.g., knife, gun, club, etc.
4. I intend to cooperate but am too upset right now. I need time to calm down and speak with my attorney.
If necessary repeat #4 if they badger you.
If you say nothing you have put the LEO's in an untenable position and they have to take you downtown. They may anyway, but at least they have your initial cooperation.
Don't say what the bad guy said, what you said and so forth as it will NOT come out the way you intend and they WILL use it against you. They may be the good guys but they have a completely different mission than yours. Just hope that the bad guy was wanted for murder or assult and suspected in other cases like yours. It will not be fun and it will not be cheap. That's why I carry only to defend my and my family's life, not property, not somebody else getting beaten. Be a good witness for the other stuff.
Also, know that you will be sued for all property damage you cause like a shot going through a window. The property owner will turn it into his insurance and his insurance will come after you. So be careful out there.
Longitude Zero
10-31-2011, 08:35 PM
Ayoob has some EXCELLENT instructions on how to handle this situation. He is an expert. Internet gunboards are infested with posers who think thye know what to do and they have NO CLUE at all. Look up what Ayoob has written and you will not go wrong.
If you CCW it is IGNORANT to not have already spoken with an attorney and carry his/her card 24/7 with the home,/office/cell number of the attorney. Her is a good start.
1. Call 9-1-1. Ask for an ambulance and police. Asking for an ambulance first then police shows the human side of you.
2. Tell the operator "I shot a man that was trying to hurt me". The key words are shot (not killed, off'ed, smoked, etc), man (not a teenager, child, mo-fo, etc).
3. Give your location and describe yourself. Most likely your description will be relayed to the first responding police officer. It would be to your advantage if the officer has an idea of who is the "good guy".
4. Do not answer the operator's questions for details. You are being recorded so you have to be brief. Say that you are really busy right now but you are willing to stay on the line until police arrive.
5. Speak clearly. This projects the image of being in control and not panic.
6. Do not have your pistol in your hand when the officer arrives. Holster it when you see the car approach. Keep your hands visible from this point forward.
7. Give the officer a brief non-emotional description of the events. Give enough to make the initial police report. He/she needs basic information to decide if you are free to leave, getting a free ride to the police station for more questions, or getting the handcuffs.
8. Avoid giving out too much information. Your emotions will come out and may work against you. Say that you are trying your hardest not to throw up right now and would rather answer questions later. Police officers who have been involved in a shooting will sympathize with this. If you did #7 well, this should not be a problem.
9. Others. Don't argue with witnesses. Don't act aggressively even if you're angry. Move slowly.
Depending upon you live you may have immunity from civil liability.
"Say that you are trying your hardest not to throw up right now and would rather answer questions later. Police officers who have been involved in a shooting will sympathize with this."
That, in particular, is excellent advice.
Tell the 911 operator and officers that respond "if he survives I want to press charges"
Barth
10-31-2011, 11:52 PM
After it happens:
Be very careful what you say. The best phrase is -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape".
After you call 911 then call friends or family.
Let them know what's happening and possibly post bail.
If arrested you will lose access to your cell.
I really, truly, hope none of us have to go through this.
But all the hope in the world won't necessarily keep us out of harms way.
Must of us carry for this very situation.
To that end some additional thoughts on preparedness -
Before it happens:
Have a lawyer picked out to represent you.
Do everything you can to stay away from potentially bad places, situations, people...
Walk away from all altercations - that you can.
Be on the lookout for potential danger at all times.
Someone prepared, aware and determined is less likely to be a target.
And ready to act quickly when targeted.
Whether or not you stand and fight is a gut decision.
But never let anyone transport you anywhere.
At that point fight to the death.
Remember most people shot - live.
And time is on your side.
jaydee
11-01-2011, 05:52 AM
If a guy breaks into my home and I fear for my life, can I keep shooting until he is dead, or do I have to just stop him. eg: Will I get in trouble shooting him in the head after he is down?
JD
Longitude Zero
11-01-2011, 06:54 AM
As long as he/she is an active threat you may continue shooting. Once he/she is no longer a threat you may not continue shooting. Righteous shootings have gone bad when the victim crossed the line and fired one shot too many.
knkali
11-01-2011, 08:47 AM
you guys have some great advice here. I have been in a situation of SD and the adrenaline dump cannot be described in words other than, if you can keep your narrative staight that the above posts say, you are a better person than me.
Thunder71
11-01-2011, 08:52 AM
If a guy breaks into my home and I fear for my life, can I keep shooting until he is dead, or do I have to just stop him. eg: Will I get in trouble shooting him in the head after he is down?
JD
Seriously?
Yes, that would be murder... Once the threat is stopped, that's it. Even if they turn and run, the threat ended and so does your shooting.
As long as he/she is an active threat you may continue shooting. Once he/she is no longer a threat you may not continue shooting. Righteous shootings have gone bad when the victim crossed the line and fired one shot too many.
Nope, depends on the state laws where you are living. You MUST be aware of the gun laws of your state ( i.e, castle doctrine or not). Assuming
the above could get you in serious poop if you live in a state with liberal gun laws.
OldLincoln
11-01-2011, 11:13 AM
When I first got in the game I was as much afraid of the consequences as not carrying. I read everything I could get my hands on and came upon a forum at Defensive Carry called Carry and Defensive Scenarios (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/carry-defensive-scenarios/). I don't like to link other forums but one forum cannot possibly have everything.
I studied every sensible post asking myself what would I do. There are a lot of experienced folks there that give solid answers and silly answers are easily ignored. I suggest those new to carry read up on this stuff, then come back and share what you learn.
Longitude Zero
11-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Nope, depends on the state laws where you are living. You MUST be aware of the gun laws of your state ( i.e, castle doctrine or not). Assuming
the above could get you in serious poop if you live in a state with liberal gun laws.
Each state varies. But my point was once the threat is over the shooting is over also.
TominCA
11-01-2011, 11:42 AM
Always yell "Stop! Don't make me hurt you!" if any witnesses are around.
jlottmc
11-01-2011, 12:02 PM
Like has been said before, S T F U, remember the Miranda warnings? You have the right to remain silent...you have the right to stop answering questions at any time...etc. Bottom line Shut The F Up, then talk to an attorney, and let them do the talking. Don't see how an acronym makes the naughty word list.
TheTman
11-01-2011, 01:56 PM
Don't forget to holster your weapon. You don't want a gun in your hand when the cops show up.
Each state varies. But my point was once the threat is over the shooting is over also.
Eliminating the threat by killing it would be considered excessive force in many states. Rendering the threat incapacitated won't get you a manslaughter indictment. Pays to know local laws.
MW surveyor
11-01-2011, 03:40 PM
Eliminating the threat by killing it would be considered excessive force in many states. Rendering the threat incapacitated won't get you a manslaughter indictment. Pays to know local laws.
So what would you do? Aim for their knee caps? If I've got time for that then they weren't much of a threat to begin with.
What about attempted manslaughter? Would they get you for that?
jmurch
11-01-2011, 03:56 PM
Only:
"I would like to speak with my attorney"
Armybrat
11-01-2011, 05:05 PM
The only thing I will say is that I was in fear for my life and I will cooperate 100% once I speak to my attorney.
Other than that, keep your mouth shut.
This is the correct answer that a bunch of lawyers give on another board I post on.
Before calling 911, pause a moment to collect yourself, then carefully choose your words when speaking to the operator.
Armybrat
11-01-2011, 05:07 PM
Ayoob has some EXCELLENT instructions on how to handle this situation. He is an expert. Internet gunboards are infested with posers who think thye know what to do and they have NO CLUE at all. Look up what Ayoob has written and you will not go wrong.
If you CCW it is IGNORANT to not have already spoken with an attorney and carry his/her card 24/7 with the home,/office/cell number of the attorney. Her is a good start.
1. Call 9-1-1. Ask for an ambulance and police. Asking for an ambulance first then police shows the human side of you.
2. Tell the operator "I shot a man that was trying to hurt me". The key words are shot (not killed, off'ed, smoked, etc), man (not a teenager, child, mo-fo, etc).
3. Give your location and describe yourself. Most likely your description will be relayed to the first responding police officer. It would be to your advantage if the officer has an idea of who is the "good guy".
4. Do not answer the operator's questions for details. You are being recorded so you have to be brief. Say that you are really busy right now but you are willing to stay on the line until police arrive.
5. Speak clearly. This projects the image of being in control and not panic.
6. Do not have your pistol in your hand when the officer arrives. Holster it when you see the car approach. Keep your hands visible from this point forward.
7. Give the officer a brief non-emotional description of the events. Give enough to make the initial police report. He/she needs basic information to decide if you are free to leave, getting a free ride to the police station for more questions, or getting the handcuffs.
8. Avoid giving out too much information. Your emotions will come out and may work against you. Say that you are trying your hardest not to throw up right now and would rather answer questions later. Police officers who have been involved in a shooting will sympathize with this. If you did #7 well, this should not be a problem.
9. Others. Don't argue with witnesses. Don't act aggressively even if you're angry. Move slowly.
Depending upon you live you may have immunity from civil liability.
This is even better, except for #7 & 8.
Cyterio
11-01-2011, 05:25 PM
Can anyone offer advice on how to find an appropriate Lawyer/Attorney and what they should be specialized in? I am seeing some great advice on exactly what should and should not be said after the fact, but how about a little prep guide and how-to on some basic steps that should be taken ahead of time.
Longitude Zero
11-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Ask a local criminal defense attorney. Try the NACDL website. Make an appointment and have a consultation. It may or may not be free. If the attorney will not give you his/her personal cell phone for 24/7 ability to call him/her move on to another.
With the investigative experience I have saying nothing will almost surely get you detained and possibly arrested. Point out witnesses, point out the evidence especially that which is not obvious and may be missed etc.
Longitude Zero
11-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Rendering the threat incapacitated won't get you a manslaughter indictment. Pays to know local laws.
True but it is NO guarantee you won't be charged with something else either. Maiming is one that is in vogue with less than scrupulous prosecuting attornies.
OldLincoln
11-01-2011, 07:47 PM
As long as he has the gun in his hand and moves he is a viable threat. If he drops his gun and goes down, stop shooting. If one is coming after me with a gun, especially if he's fired it, I intend to put them all there as fast as I can hoping it's enough to stop him.
Another tip... Everybody knows about double tap - 2 to the COM; and triple tap - double tap + 1 to the head; but that head shot is very challenging unless he's posing for you. In my recent CCW class, the instructor said more and more body armor is showing up on bad guys negating the COM shots. Also they are bobbing and weaving their head and shoulders because they don't want to get shot in the head.
Look in the mirror with your hand like it's pointing a gun at the mirror and do the bob and weave and notice your pelvis stays relatively anchored. Most body armor stops about the hip joint leaving the pelvis unprotected and it's not moving much, so shoot them there.
A pelvis shot might get a spinal hit putting them on the ground immediately, but that doesn't mean the fights over. If they still have the gun and point it toward you keep shooting. If you think of it you might move toward their weak hand side so they have to be obvious pointing it at you, for the witness' sake.
So what would you do? Aim for their knee caps? If I've got time for that then they weren't much of a threat to begin with.
What about attempted manslaughter? Would they get you for that?
Well you sure don't want to maximize the chances of criminal prosecution by
trying to explain why you pumped three 15 round magazines into them!
The key is the "what would a reasonable man have done" question.
If one shot caused them to cease to be a threat, then 6 shots was clearly
excessive. I guess it depends on if there are witnesses or not. Unless it was in my house, i would bet that someone else saw what happened.
When I first got in the game I was as much afraid of the consequences as not carrying. I read everything I could get my hands on and came upon a forum at Defensive Carry called Carry and Defensive Scenarios (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/carry-defensive-scenarios/). I don't like to link other forums but one forum cannot possibly have everything.
I studied every sensible post asking myself what would I do. There are a lot of experienced folks there that give solid answers and silly answers are easily ignored. I suggest those new to carry read up on this stuff, then come back and share what you learn.
That's me, in a nutshell. Thanks for the link. I will go take a look.
johnh
11-03-2011, 08:29 AM
I don't think I have anything to add that has not been covered, but here is an overview from slides myself and our other instructors use in CCW classes:
When the police arrive:
Follow the officers instructions
State:
I was in fear of my life
I was forced to defend myself
I want to press charges against him (the criminal)
I will give you a full statement after I talk to my lawyer
Remember that they do not know you, and cannot assume you are the good guy
FOLLOW THE OFFICERS INSTRUCTIONS (repeated for emphasis)
They will confiscate your firearm
They may detain you
Cooperate fully, but remember your rights against self-incrimination. An attorney is the expert you need to speak to next.
As for what to do with the gun, we advise that IF it is safe to do so, put it down in an obvious place and do not keep it on your person. Again, only if the danger has passed. If this is not the case, make that clear to the dispatcher when calling 911. Above all NEVER point it in any way towards the officer/s. If you do that, you will be shot.
Longitude Zero
11-03-2011, 09:54 AM
Like john posted DO NOT MAKE YOURSELF A TRAGET by doing something silly.
As to your weapon IT WILL BE CONFISCATED and it could be months to years before you get it back. It will be kept in evidence until ALL legal situations criminal and possibly civil have been completed. A lady shot and killed a burglar in her home in my area about 18 months ago. One of the other two burglars has been convicted and the third perp goes on trial soon. Her weapon is still in police custody and will be until the conclusion of the third trial and possibly the first round of appeals.
johnh
11-04-2011, 08:38 AM
I have heard horror stories about what often happens to such guns in the "evidence locker" as well. Things like officer initials being carved into guns to note who is taking it home after the original owner is convicted. Bottom line, if you care about the appearance of a gun too much to risk it being damaged by any means should you have to use it, that is not the gun for you to carry.
Rainman48314
11-04-2011, 09:18 AM
That's me, in a nutshell. Thanks for the link. I will go take a look.One of the reponses to a hypothetical rings true for me...
Lawyer induced cowardice will do you no good in the middle of a gunfight, and when someone has already been shot, it's a gunfight.
Is it better to be shot than to be sued?
I can recover from poor, a lot faster than I can recover from dead.
One of the reponses to a hypothetical rings true for me...
Lawyer induced cowardice will do you no good in the middle of a gunfight, and when someone has already been shot, it's a gunfight.
Is it better to be shot than to be sued?
I can recover from poor, a lot faster than I can recover from dead.
Thanks Rainman. Good thoughts. I am not so concerned about having to defend myself in a justifiable situation, but rather using/showing a gun when it is not justified. The old "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" issue. I appreciate discussions like on the scenarios board to help get me thinking about the proper tool for the proper situation.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.