Dead Primers

[getsome]

I'm having a problem and I just cant nail it down...I just reloaded 100 rounds of light .44 mag using 8 grains of Universal Clays, 240 grain jhp and the latest batch of primers which are Winchester combination magnum or standard large pistol primers...

Went to the range yesterday and the very first two rounds were duds...Had very good primer strikes but the primer didn't go off...Tried firing them through several times but no go, just dead... I had this issue once before but those primers were bought at a gun show and even though a name brand I figured maybe they were old or something but this latest box of Winchester came from a trusted gun shop and I'm back to this problem again...

I pulled both rounds back down to be sure everything looked ok and then measured the charge and both were spot on but for some reason the primers just didn't do its thing...

Should I chalk this up as bad primers and maybe go to a differend brand?...Should I use only magnum primers and could I use magnum primers for my other guns that aren't magnums?.... I liked the idea of combination mag/standard as I also load .45 ACP and .45 long Colt...

This has me about ready to give up trying to reload...I don't really save much if any money doing it on my small scale single press but I really like doing it almost as much as shooting and find it a relaxing hobby but I'm starting to get frustrated with the no bang issue...

One funny thing was I also had some .45 long Colt loads with me that I put together with the same primers and they all shot fine so I'm perplexed...Has anyone else ever had issues with dead primers? Thanks again guys....:confused:

[Bawanna]

I use those same combination Winchester primers mostly the small but large also. I hope they aren't bad, I just bought 4000.
I've never had one fail. I use the small in the Speer Lawman small primer 45ACP and they seem to work fine.
The large I also use in regular 45 ACP, 45 Colt and once in awhile 44 mag.

I think the first thing I would do would be to just size and prime 12 cases or so and just try them to see if they go bang. If your getting a good solid primer hit it has to be a bad primer. I am perplexed that they seem to work in the 45 Colt and not the 44.

Your not handling the primers as you load by chance. Right from the box to a tray, no touching with the hands? Course if you did that you'd probably do it to the 45 Colt too so there goes that theory right out the window like a dove on his way south for the winter.

No bang at all with the 44 huh? What kind of 44 by chance, transfer bar Ruger or a Smith with a pin on the hammer?

[getsome]

Thanks Bawanna for the reply...My pistol is a newer S&W 629 that doesn't have the hammer firing pin spur like the old models had and it is getting a good solid hit on the primer but one thing you said made me think...

I use the press to seat primers and do touch the primers to put them in the little cup so maybe I will try using a latex glove next time...My hands are dry but I suppose there could be some skin contamination going on...I'll give it a try, couldn't hurt anything...

[Bawanna]

Thanks Bawanna for the reply...My pistol is a newer S&W 629 that doesn't have the hammer firing pin spur like the old models had and it is getting a good solid hit on the primer but one thing you said made me think...

I use the press to seat primers and do touch the primers to put them in the little cup so maybe I will try using a latex glove next time...My hands are dry but I suppose there could be some skin contamination going on...I'll give it a try, couldn't hurt anything...

Doesn't your press have a primer tube that feeds the primer seater. I'd get a primer tray if you don't have one, dump the box into the tray, shake em to get all right side up, then put the lid on and flip it over so you can pick them up with the tube.
I never touch a primer. I don't leave any in the tube or anywhere but loaded or in their box.
I do have a pair of tweezers I use if I have to move a primer or get one that refuses to roll over like it should but I never touch them.
Could be a fluke that only the ones you touched ended up in the 44 but what are the odds of that.
If your using a single stage press, I'd get a Lee Hand Priming tool. 1000 times better than the press, fast, clean, you can feel the primer being seated. No touching, dump from box right into the tray and your priming.

[Ikeo74]

I agree with Bawanna, it has to be some kind of an opperator error. I use Winchester primmers and they are now listed to use the same primer for magnum or regular loads. Did the primers ignite or not. This info will help track down the problen. If there was no ignition then the ptimers got contaminated with oil or water. Could have been wet or oily inside the case or from your fingers. If they ignited and didn't set off the powder then the case had a blocked flash hole or were wet when loaded. Think back to see if any of these apply to your loads. Did you have gun oil on your fingers from cleaning the gun before loading?

[Charlie98]

I would find it unusual that new primers would have a contamination issue... they really are far more resilient than some make them out to be (I'm not saying you can dunk them in oil or water and they will be fine, either...) and they shouldn't go bad after being handled during the loading process.

If you are having an ignition problem with one particular firearm, I would have it checked for a weak hammer spring or an obstruction (gunk underneath the transfer bar, etc.)

Tumbling media (especially corn cob) can plug the flash hole, but the force of the primer going off should dislodge it quite easily...

For what it's worth, I use the same Winchester LP primers and have never had a problem with them, using them in about 6 different pistols (or Winchester primers in general.)

[getsome]

Thanks guys...This one has me bamboozled alright...I have a single stage Redding press and it doesnt have a primer feed tube or anything like that it just has a primer cup you place one at a time in and raise the lever to seat the primer...

I didn't know that you shouldn't touch the primers and I suppose it is possible that I might have contaminated them but I just don't see how...I don't tumble brass with the spent primers removed so corn cob media in the flash hole isn't it and the cases weren't wet but in the future I will wear a latex glove...The gun is hitting the primer really good enough but the primers just didn't go off...Pulled both bullets and powder was correct and dry...

I have one of those Lee hand primer tools and just dont like it too much because it hurts my hand after a while and using the press is just easier for me...I hope this is just an isolated thing but if it happens again I will go to the Lee tool...Thanks again guys...

[Ikeo74]

One last thing to check. I load with a single stage press too, but I use a lee primer tool , it is much faster and more accurate.

Check this: When you are loading a single primer and raising the press arm to seat the primer you may not be applying enough pressure to fully seat the primer into the primer pocket of the cases you are having a problem with. If you do not get the primmer fully seated "deep enough" into the case this is what happens: The primer is in the case but you can feel with your finger passing over the casing that the primer is above the level (raised) of the case flat area. Now when you chamber that raised primer into a correctly functioning fire arm and pull the trigger, the firing pin hits the primmer hard enough to fire the gun. However now here is the problem: As the firing pin hits the primmer and dents the primer it also pushed the primer deeper into the case. This process uses all the energy of the firing pin but the primmer does not fire because the internal friction of the anvil that produces the friction tp make the spark to ignite the primer does not functin, thus producing no spark to ignite the primer and then you have a "DUD" It is no fault of a perfectly good primer and can happen to any brand of primer not seated deep enough. The deep end of the primer pocket is supposed to hold firm the anvil of the primer. If there is a gap then there can be no firm hold. Now to simplfy, A primer not seated properly will be a dud for the above reason. To correct this, forget about the rubber gloves, just check every primer you just seated to feel if it is raised higher than the case. If it is, you need to put it back in the press and apply more pressure. I think with 99% that this is your problem.

[Bawanna]

Do you think it would fire if you hit it a second time? He said he tried a few a second time and they still didn't fire.

Your logic is sound and I've heard of that occurrence. It may be that smacking the primer in deeper is altering the anvil in such a way that the second hit won't ignite it.

[Ikeo74]

Second strikes re-enter the previous indentation on the primer and do not have any effect. I suppose there could be a 5% chance it might fire, and possibility a better chance if in a pistol the case was rotated 45 to 90 degrees to impacr a different area. This is only speculation on my part about second strikes. There might be a better chance with "light primer strikes" to get a second chance by hitting it twice. 2 light strikes an a properly seated primer might do it.

[getsome]

When I seat the primers I always do a thumb nail check to be sure they are below the base of the case so I think they are seating good...The two bad rounds had a real good firing pin mark so I'm left scratching my head on this one...Hopefully it will work its self out...


One other question I forgot to ask is how far out do you adjust the primer cup on the press and is it possible to adjust it out too far?

[recoilguy]

I would not discount Ikeo74's theroy. It is the problem more times then not on primer strickes that don't work....unless it is a CCI primer, but thats another thread. Be sure when you seat the primer especially if you are using the hand primer tool that you give it that extra last squeeze at the end. I have seen this problem a few times and it has been a poor seed. If you are checking it after it did not work it will be seeded deep now and the firing pin probably is hitting the old dimple and not giving it the snap it needs to fire. I could be wrong but I agree with Ikeo74, too many times in my experiance this has been the problem and the loader is very hesitant to admit it. It is not a hit on your ability as a reloader, it is a common noobe mistake.

If it is the primers that could be a bummer for you if you have many more of them.

RCG

[Bawanna]

When I seat the primers I always do a thumb nail check to be sure they are below the base of the case so I think they are seating good...The two bad rounds had a real good firing pin mark so I'm left scratching my head on this one...Hopefully it will work its self out...


One other question I forgot to ask is how far out do you adjust the primer cup on the press and is it possible to adjust it out too far?

Whats a primer cup. Are you talking about the pin to deprime? If so I adjust mine so its just far enough out to deprime, nothing more. The farther out it is the easier it is to be out of alignment and bend or get broken.
Not sure what your calling a primer cup?

[getsome]

What I'm talking about is on my press there is a little lever like thing you flip over into a slot on the main shaft and the little spring loaded cup comes up through the shell holder when you want to prime cases...The cup where the new primer sits in is threaded into that lever and to prime you raise the handle all the way up, place a new primer anvil side up in the primer cup then pull down the arm, place a new case in the shell holder and insert the new primer by pushing up on the handle if that makes sense...It seems to seat the primer fully into the case and is below the base on the brass and I bang up pretty hard to be sure of a good seat...Y'all have about convinced me to start using the lee hand primer tool for the next batch and hopefully that will fix it...This reloading thing is a constant learning process and I really don't want to give up on it but I'm starting to lose confidence in myself...I am very careful and have never had any over charges (knock on wood) and it may be that I am the the cause of the problem....Will try again but if it continues to happen it may be time to call it quits...

[Bawanna]

Never call it quits. I didn't think there was any adjustment on that primer cup. The sides are spring loaded so they can be pushed down with the case and then the seater plug just pushes the primer home.
Typical priming set up on all presses even progressives usually.

[Charlie98]

Before I got my Lee hand primer I used my RCBS press-mounted primer ram, it's pretty positive, but you can still not seat it all the way.

One other thing is residue in the primer pocket, appearing as black 'soot'. I used to use a primer pocket cleaner and twist it out before I reprimed. I suppose it's possible a buildup would keep the primer from seating all the way, too.

I still think it's an issue with the pistol itself... everything else being equal (using the same primers in other weapons/cartridges) this is the only other thing.

Hmmmm....

[muggsy]

Assuming that you inspected the flash hole in each and every case, I would assume that what you have encountered is a couple of the much dreaded "bad primers". Over the years I have discovered that if an object is made by man that they can and do occasionally fail. That's why man invented the "Tap Rack Drill" and the back-up gun. Poop happens.

[getsome]

Update to this thread, I am going to shoot up all my previously loaded .44 stuff and start again fresh...I did load up some new brass using the Lee priner tool and see that you can seat primers deeper using it rather than when using the press but it's rough on the old thumb...

I talked to my LGS dealer of reloading supplies who is a big competition long range rifle shooter and meticulous reloader and he also gave me the advise to use the Lee tool and always clean out the primer pockets and inspect the flash hole before priming...

We also talked about primers and when I mentioned that I was using Winchesters he said he has had bad luck with them and only uses CCI so I will try some of those...

One last thing that both Bawanna and he said was to use latex gloves when touching primers which I will do...We went shooting yesterday (shot horrible) and only had one ftf round out of 100 of the old batch so I'm hoping the new methods will get things corrected...Thanks to everyone for their replies

[muggsy]

Update to this thread, I am going to shoot up all my previously loaded .44 stuff and start again fresh...I did load up some new brass using the Lee priner tool and see that you can seat primers deeper using it rather than when using the press but it's rough on the old thumb...

I talked to my LGS dealer of reloading supplies who is a big competition long range rifle shooter and meticulous reloader and he also gave me the advise to use the Lee tool and always clean out the primer pockets and inspect the flash hole before priming...

We also talked about primers and when I mentioned that I was using Winchesters he said he has had bad luck with them and only uses CCI so I will try some of those...

One last thing that both Bawanna and he said was to use latex gloves when touching primers which I will do...We went shooting yesterday (shot horrible) and only had one ftf round out of 100 of the old batch so I'm hoping the new methods will get things corrected...Thanks to everyone for their replies

I used to use both Remington and Winchester primers depending on the brand of case I was using. I haven't used anything but CCI primers for the last ten years.

[MW surveyor]

I've never had a problem with Federal or CCI. Just my 2 cents.

[CJB]

FWIW, back in the day, we did run into a batch of WW primers that had no anvils... here and there... made for @#$@# at the range for couple of months - because we rotated ammo, and didn't do "lots", just dumped 'em in the crate to get boxed when the last crate was empty. I think it was 9mm's so it would have been small pistol primers, no anvils on maybe couple of dozen out of 10,000

[Bongo Boy]

My experience is limited to about 20,000 rounds loaded. Of that, I think I've used 2-3,000 Winchester, 1-2,000 Wolf and I believe the rest have been CCI. The ONLY loads I have that routinely fail to fire are Wolf and Winchester primed loads. It is as predictable as can be.

Both brands consistently cause me problems during the loading process--problems I have never experienced even once with CCI. Both are difficult to seat and both tend to jam up my primer shuttle. Often, they seat just enough to allow the shellplate to start rotating, but not enough to allow it to rotate freely--I then have to fight to get the case over the primer plunger to force it home.

For the Wolfs, I'd say the failure rate for me is about 2-3%, and for the Winchesters maybe half that.

These are all large pistol and all in 45ACP, 10% in a Lee Turret Classic, 90% in Hornady LnL. I've had several folks say they use Wolfs almost exclusively and never have any problems at all, and I expect even more folks use Winchesters with no problems. For me, it is so certain I'll have misfires, I don't buy them. The Wolfs have been significantly worse than the Winchesters though, but both seem very tight in the brass I use--which includes about 7 brands of used range brass.

In shooting some stuff I loaded a year ago, if I open a box and see brass primers (as opposed to nickel finished), I know I'm in for some malfunction drills.

[cobrasjp]

Everything suggested so far makes sense.
But I thought of one more thing. Do you use any sort of case lube? If so, could that contaminate the primers if there is too much of it on the case when when you are priming?
Just a thought.

[getsome]

Well I finally got to shoot 50 rounds of newly loaded light .44 mag target loads using the Lee hand primer tool instead of the press and all went bang this time...I also used latex gloves to touch the primers with as suggested by several folks and was careful to clean the primer pockets and pressed hard on the tool to fully seat the new primers so hopefully the problem won't happen anymore...Thanks to all for your help in solving this problem...