Range Day: was thinking about those who train for accuracy and those for self defense

[sfla99]

Hi all,

This past weekend I went to the range to do the break in on a new PM9, while there I had roughly 225 rounds to burn through and an anxious wife on the other side of the glass waiting for me to be done so we can head out.

But this got me thinking, I was there to handle the break in, I was not training for accuracy or self defense, instead I was just trying to burn through rounds.

Now I was not going crazy, but I was firing prob each bullet in a fashion that would equal a steady rate of fire 1 per second.

This rate was most likely slower than trying to train a SD scenario, but the first thing I heard from a guy in the next lane over from me who was shooting some silly cannon and shooting 1 bullet every 45 seconds, was - " I hate when these people come in here and shoot rapid fire! ".

I was super tempted to lean over and tell the guy I was doing a break in on the new fire arm, but I decided to just go about my business.

After reading another thread today on the forum it got me thinking.

If I am carrying a PM9 and training with it, I am not there to be a sharp shooter, I train how I would shoot god forbid I ever needed to draw and fire.

I think a guy like the one I mentioned needs to understand not every one at the range is shooting a .357 at 20 Yards trying to hit a 6" target with a rate of 1 shot per 40 seconds, with one eye closed and trying to be joe marksman.

Me running some rounds through my PM9 is going to put my target at about 7-10 yards, take aim and fire pretty steady, much in the same way I would should I ever find myself in a SD scenario.

This guy who is practicing to be on next seasons Top Shop needs to be a little more tolerant and consider other peoples methods of what they are training for.

Any way, I was just curious on what others here think, when you go to the range do you practice slow single shots to get 1" groups, or are you working on hitting center mass 2+1 style shots or a steady rate of center mass hits in the quickest possible time?

Thanks in advance!

[HadEmAll]

Very good question.

I alternate. At my advanced age of 61:) I have to continually make sure I am still capable of making the gun hit where I am aiming by slow, precise, "watch the front sight", breathe right, etc, shooting.

THEN I conclude the range session with the multiple targets, double and triple taps, and weak hand shooting.

If and when you ever have to use your weapon for the real thing, you might need a careful aimed shot, or on the other hand, have to engage multiple moving targets. Best to be prepared for both I think.

Edited to add: If the range itself has no restriction on "rapid fire", then to hell with that other person. You have to know your weapon is capable of sustained "pull the trigger until it locks back" shooting.

The owner of a range I have visited in the past, and a survivor of a gunfight involving multiple assailants, has the rule that you should shoot no faster than you can account for where each bullet is going to hit. Everybody hears that lecture before going out to the firing line.

I have seen ranges with really restrictive rules, such as 4 seconds between shots. They are there because of the incompetent shooters they've dealt with in the past. If your range doesn't have that, then you're good to go.

[Russ]

Hi all,

This past weekend I went to the range to do the break in on a new PM9, while there I had roughly 225 rounds to burn through and an anxious wife on the other side of the glass waiting for me to be done so we can head out.

But this got me thinking, I was there to handle the break in, I was not training for accuracy or self defense, instead I was just trying to burn through rounds.

Now I was not going crazy, but I was firing prob each bullet in a fashion that would equal a steady rate of fire 1 per second.

This rate was most likely slower than trying to train a SD scenario, but the first thing I heard from a guy in the next lane over from me who was shooting some silly cannon and shooting 1 bullet every 45 seconds, was - " I hate when these people come in here and shoot rapid fire! ".

I was super tempted to lean over and tell the guy I was doing a break in on the new fire arm, but I decided to just go about my business.

After reading another thread today on the forum it got me thinking.

If I am carrying a PM9 and training with it, I am not there to be a sharp shooter, I train how I would shoot god forbid I ever needed to draw and fire.

I think a guy like the one I mentioned needs to understand not every one at the range is shooting a .357 at 20 Yards trying to hit a 6" target with a rate of 1 shot per 40 seconds, with one eye closed and trying to be joe marksman.

Me running some rounds through my PM9 is going to put my target at about 7-10 yards, take aim and fire pretty steady, much in the same way I would should I ever find myself in a SD scenario.

This guy who is practicing to be on next seasons Top Shop needs to be a little more tolerant and consider other peoples methods of what they are training for.

Any way, I was just curious on what others here think, when you go to the range do you practice slow single shots to get 1" groups, or are you working on hitting center mass 2+1 style shots or a steady rate of center mass hits in the quickest possible time?

Thanks in advance!

There are some good point shooting videos on YouTube. Bottom line if you are in a life or death situation you are not going to look at your sights. I try to focus on hitting a 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheet of paper at 7 yards pour shooting. If you can hit 50% you will be ok in a rapid fire gun fight. The key is get the shots down rang fast. You loose fine motor skills in a life or death situation that is why point shooting is critical to learn. Looking down the sights will get you killed. Russ

[kramm]

Do what you need to do for your own enjoyment/training. I'll bet that guy in the next lane didn't care about you when he was firing. Do what you need to do to become comfortable with your weapon and put the bs out of your mind.

[JFootin]

There are some good point shooting videos on YouTube. Bottom line if you are in a life or death situation you are not going to look at your sights. I try to focus on hitting a 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheet of paper at 7 yards pour shooting. If you can hit 50% you will be ok in a rapid fire gun fight. The key is get the shots down rang fast. You loose fine motor skills in a life or death situation that is why point shooting is critical to learn. Looking down the sights will get you killed. Russ

HadEmAll, I am right there with you at 61:).

Russ, I agree that focusing on a 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper (or a standard target from Wally World) is perfectly sufficient. These are short barreled defense pistols, not target pistols. They are quite accurate for such small guns, but with my bad eyes, 6" groups with several fliers is what I can do at 10 yards. Here is my range report from yesterday's outing:

My older brother and I went to do some shooting at "Paradise (http://www.nuwrayinn.com/farmhouse.html)" - my niece and her husband's restored farmhouse on several acres of land along the Cane River in the mountains of Western North Carolina (available for vacation rental for anyone wanting a comfortable getaway). He brought his old lever action .22 rifle. My CM9 performed perfectly using WWB - much better than either of us with our bad eyes. We were shooting at about 30 feet, 66 rounds. Like Jocko, I had several real good one shot groups! :p About 2/3 of my shots hit within the black, with all but a couple of the fliers on the paper. The bullseye acted like it had a Star Wars defense shield, but I finally got 2 in the red. I am going to get closer to the target next time out. :o

Aren't these PM/CM9s a pleasure to shoot? :) Mine is ultra comfortable with the Qwik-Grip rubber grip sleeve on it. I have 2 extra mags and a Universal UpLULA mag loader to make things easier. I am going to have to do the mag squeezing trick to get my mags to drop free or easier, though. All 3 drop less than .25" and have to be pulled the rest of the way out.

[Bill K]

Depends on what the range rule/regulations are....

Shooting bulls eyes is foundational. Great for learning trigger control and sight alignment and such under live fire. But you really need to train like you're going to fight or, if you have the time and money, train the way you feel you "should" fight. I understand a lot of ranges, particularly indoor ranges, will have rules that will not allow much more than square range practice - no rapid fire (however the range may define rapid fire).

I have the advantage of being able to train and practice on my backyard range.

[TheTman]

Our range says no firing faster than 1 per second, no double taps, no drawing from concealed holsters, only if it's OWB at 3:00. Not very conductive to self defense training, but keeps the range safe.
Depending on who is working you can get a double tap in now and then.

[Rainman48314]

One of the ways to make it clear in your mind, and maybe that of others at the range, is to use a human silhouette as your target when practicing in SD mode. No Zombies or Bin Laden likness, just the police type or competition type. I like practicing Failure to Stop drills, two COM, followed by one to the head. My typical distance is 15-18 feet.

[sfla99]

I was shooting silhouettes,

My rate of fire was steady, not what I would call rapid and no where near trying to empty a mag in a feverish pace, a nice steady 1 second count between each trigger pull.

I shot 220+ rounds in total and no one said a thing aside from the guy to my right.

But the point I was getting at was, maybe he is trying to be a marksman, but me with my little micro is trying to practice how to stop a threat, now granted I was just burning bullets down range for my break in, but nothing I would call rapid fire, not even close.

Plus I was going for center mass the entire tire trying to learn the trigger, which I still need lots of work with lol, I am a high left guy with the PM so far :/

Here is a 7 Yrd target of 50 rounds from that day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/toxik99/PM9/target.jpg

Cheers!

[Avenger]

... the first thing I heard from a guy in the next lane over from me who was shooting some silly cannon and shooting 1 bullet every 45 seconds, was - " I hate when these people come in here and shoot rapid fire! ".


"... and I hate it when a--wipes act like the world revolves around them and spout off their mouths!" would be what I would want to say, but I also realize that I shouldn't escalate the situation.



... when you go to the range do you practice slow single shots to get 1" groups, or are you working on hitting center mass 2+1 style shots or a steady rate of center mass hits in the quickest possible time?

I am fortunate that the range I go to is very tolerant of the type of practice/shooting you want to do. As long as you are conducting yourself in a safe manner and following the rules as to what type of firearm you are using on what range, you can shoot as fast or as slow as you want to.

But it is an outdoor range out in west Texas, and we really like our guns here. :)

[Barth]

Both ranges I frequent don't allow rapid fire.
Nevertheless, I always perform double tap drills.
Often rapidly through 15/22 round mags.
Nobody ever says anything to me?

As for the thing that bugs.
Empty casings raining on my head from the adjacent lane.
I usually catch a few in midair after they bounce off my head and lob them back where they came from.
Then I open up like I'm at Iwo Jima.
That's the end of that....

I totally love 7 yard point shooting these days.
Just a sight picture off the front of the slide and open fire.
It's getting to the point where it's all muscle memory now.
I'm almost not aiming at all.
Just watching the holes appear in the target!


Mmmmm when's my 357 coming out to play?

[Bill K]

Guess if the fellow believed your rate of fire was faster than the range rules allow he should have said that to you or have taken his complaint to the range officer. If it just bothered him and no rules were being broken then his remark was uncalled for - IMHO.

[Russ]

The reason I point shoot using a standard sheet of paper is the critical zone is about the size of a sheet of paper. One shot per second rule at a gun range is still pretty fast shooting.

Call me crazy but I use my daughters Beretta air soft to practice rapid point shooting. We have a sticky Target 7 inch square I place on our garbage can (4 ft off the ground) I wear a leather glove on my non shooting hand so I can pull the slide back immediately after I fire. It sounds goofy but a good air soft can help you if rapid point shooting. With practice I can stick a plastic bb 50% of the time on the 7 inch square Target at 7 yards. You need to spend the bucks for an accurate air soft like as Beretta. Russ

[muggsy]

I used to practice double taps until one day a squib load resulted in two projectiles being wedged into a gun barrel barrel that had a rather large bulge in the center of it. I decided then and there that one round per second was plenty fast enough. When I do want to practice rapid fire I try to go to the range when it isn't busy. Wednesday mornings seem to work out well.

[ltxi]

Hi all,

This past weekend I went to the range to do the break in on a new PM9, while there I had roughly 225 rounds to burn through and an anxious wife on the other side of the glass waiting for me to be done so we can head out.

But this got me thinking, I was there to handle the break in, I was not training for accuracy or self defense, instead I was just trying to burn through rounds.

Now I was not going crazy, but I was firing prob each bullet in a fashion that would equal a steady rate of fire 1 per second.

This rate was most likely slower than trying to train a SD scenario, but the first thing I heard from a guy in the next lane over from me who was shooting some silly cannon and shooting 1 bullet every 45 seconds, was - " I hate when these people come in here and shoot rapid fire! ".

I was super tempted to lean over and tell the guy I was doing a break in on the new fire arm, but I decided to just go about my business.

After reading another thread today on the forum it got me thinking.

If I am carrying a PM9 and training with it, I am not there to be a sharp shooter, I train how I would shoot god forbid I ever needed to draw and fire.

I think a guy like the one I mentioned needs to understand not every one at the range is shooting a .357 at 20 Yards trying to hit a 6" target with a rate of 1 shot per 40 seconds, with one eye closed and trying to be joe marksman.

Me running some rounds through my PM9 is going to put my target at about 7-10 yards, take aim and fire pretty steady, much in the same way I would should I ever find myself in a SD scenario.

This guy who is practicing to be on next seasons Top Shop needs to be a little more tolerant and consider other peoples methods of what they are training for.

Any way, I was just curious on what others here think, when you go to the range do you practice slow single shots to get 1" groups, or are you working on hitting center mass 2+1 style shots or a steady rate of center mass hits in the quickest possible time?

Thanks in advance!

Was kinda thinking the same sort of thing last week as I was running in one new gun and checking out another after spring changes...burning various ammunition. I agree with what I think is your conclusion. If I can comfortably and consistently shoot three inch groups in an extended, casual range session like that at 7-8 yards, especially with a gun I've never fired before, it's a positive tell wrt my inherent capability to use it as a defense weapon.

Also, the indoor handgun range I use is heavily frequented by LE and other professional folk so appropriate rapid fire isn't an issue. Whiny bullseye shooters, on the other hand, aren't well tolerated.

[Longitude Zero]

My local range allows rapid fire and even rents full auto weapons. They allow drawing from the holster if you are the only one on the range. Wow the restrictions you guys have to suffer thru...

[mightymouse]

Makes me feel fortunate that my "range" is about 300 sq miles of open grassland. Quick draw, double tap, empty the mag as fast as you can, between your legs with your lucky underwear on your head if you like and nothing but a few pronghorn to raise their eyebrows. My CM9 is no target gun.
Kudos to those practicing for a defensive scenario.

[bonjorno2]

who give a darn what he thinks.... save a few rounds in case he come's after you! lol

[Husky44]

To the question as I understood the OP: I practice both. Saying your motor skills will erode so why bother fine tuning them seems to ignore the fact that 50% less than "expert" due to stress induced skill erosion is much better than 50% less than "broad side of the barn" skills. Hone the fundamentals, then increase speed, complexity, or adversity of conditions.

[Tilos]

I grab some paper bags at the grocery store and cut off both sides of each bag for use as a torso sized, politically correct self defense target.

And if I want to shoot groups, I put 5 or 6 1 inch dots on one of them.

It's been a while since I shot at a public range, but have used this type "target" taped over the range's require target, with multiple dots with out any trouble, as they did have a "not multiple target" rule.

I practice from bad breath range, gun close in at my belt line, no sights, that is self defense in my view, not arms extended at shoulder height.

Loud, too warm or too cold, glasses fog, smokey, Richard Craniums, brass whores, just some of the reasons for not going to an indoor public range.

And any remark (from Richard Cranium) about rapid fire, and I would try my best to show him what rapid fire really is, as long as it was allowed;).

just sayin'
Tilos

[TheTman]

Most places offer advanced CC classes. Perhaps you need to sign up for one of those to be able to practice your SD skills. Like drawing from your concealed position and firing a double tap at the target. I wouldn't like it if the guy in the next lane was drawing from behind his back and covering me with his weapon on it's way to target.
I'm pretty sure the lanes have material to protect you from the shooter in the next lane, but I'm still uncomfortable. And I'm pretty sure it's not allowed.
In an advanced class I bet you'd be expected to draw from your CC holster and proceed to double tap or empty the magazine at a high rate of speed at your target, with no one to complain about it.
My two indoor ranges both say one round a second is the maximum rate of fire allowed, but you can get away with a double tap here and there, they just don't like you emptying your magazine in 2 seconds or whatever.

[LaP]

Here in Indianapolis, rapid fire is OK, but you can't simulate a draw motion.
I would have had the urge to say something to the complainer (it would have kept me up all night thinking about it). But, you handled it much better. ;)

[sfla99]

Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but where does it say I was drawing, covering or double tapping lol.

I said I was fire (one) bullet, at the rate of 1 per second, so that's 6 rounds @ 1 second = 6 seconds per magazine.

Hold a watch and watch the hand tick for 6 seconds and this will give you a general idea of the rate of fire.

This is of course a rough estimate, but a close simulation.

So to re-iterate, no holster drawing, no covering any one at any time, no double taps and a steady rate of controllable fire at a rate of roughly 1 round per second.

This was just a cranky guy shooting a .357 at 60% the length of the range and shooting 1 shot per 45 seconds trying to work on his accuracy I guess.

The point of the thread was, its a public range and me with my little PM9 even on a normal "non break in period " day at the range would not be shooting like him.

Though he felt the need to speak aloud so I could hear his distain in the fact I was trying to burn through 200+ rounds and be able to leave.

Cheers!

[Tilos]

sfla99:
Nothing ruffled here.
I didn't miss your point.

Your beef is with the Richard Cranium at the range...not us:confused:
You missed the chance to address him at the range, no need to defend your shooting method here either;).

Just move on.

just sayin'
Tilos

[LaP]

The thread kinda drifted to other range topics. It happens.

I think almost all of us agree the snide comment by The Range Enforcer was uncalled for. The odds of you seeing him there again are pretty slim.

[Barth]

The thread kinda drifted to other range topics. It happens.

I think almost all of us agree the snide comment by The Range Enforcer was uncalled for. The odds of you seeing him there again are pretty slim.

Some people are just rude, self absorbed, whatever...
You would never say something like that.
If there was a real issue the range master would take it up with you.
Not a customer.

This jerk is nobody.
Just a shadow making irritating noises.
If you ignore it, it will go away.

[O'Dell]

My range is pretty much unsupervised. I'm sure there are rules, but I've been going there for 5 years, and I've never seen any. The only time I ever see an employee from the gun store back there is when someone drops a mag or a gun [I saw this twice] over the counter, and needs to retrieve it.

I usually shoot more or less for accuracy, but I don't shoot slow - maybe a round every 1 1/2 to 2 seconds except when I'm sighting in a new gun. I burn through 150 - 175 rounds in 30 to 45 minutes. I probably spend more time loading mags than shooting, since I only have one high-cap pistol. Most are 6 or 7 rounds with two at 8 and one at 10.