Close Call Today

[MO_Soldier]

So...I'm an "as needed" employee in a high risk retail store dealing in jewelry and they have me work a lot during this holiday season.
Since I'm as needed, I haven't requested written permission from the manager/owner to CCW at work because I'm afraid his/her mindset will just be "Why risk it for someone who will barely be around?"

My thought is this; 'I'd rather be fired/in court than dead if something were to happen.

That's the first thing I want the forum's opinion on.

Today at work a older gentleman coworker of my brushed up against my lower back with his hand as we were passing each other in close quarters.(The keeping-my-junk-from-your-butt-hand-block haha)

I THINK he may have bumped the butt of my pistol as he did this. I didn't see any alarm from his actions immediately after, but being a new employee, I'm also not sure of his alertness to these kinds of things, nor his stand on them.

I want your guys thoughts on the matter, and maybe personal stories that are similar. I hate to be a new CCW worry wart, but I also understand completely that there can be serious consequences for our actions.

Thanks guys!

[Indigo]

So...I'm an "as needed" employee in a high risk retail store dealing in jewelry and they have me work a lot during this holiday season.
Since I'm as needed, I haven't requested written permission from the manager/owner to CCW at work because I'm afraid his/her mindset will just be "Why risk it for someone who will barely be around?"

My thought is this; 'I'd rather be fired/in court than dead if something were to happen.

That's the first thing I want the forum's opinion on.

Today at work a older gentleman coworker of my brushed up against my lower back with his hand as we were passing each other in close quarters.(The keeping-my-junk-from-your-butt-hand-block haha)

I THINK he may have bumped the butt of my pistol as he did this. I didn't see any alarm from his actions immediately after, but being a new employee, I'm also not sure of his alertness to these kinds of things, nor his stand on them.

I want your guys thoughts on the matter, and maybe personal stories that are similar. I hate to be a new CCW worry wart, but I also understand completely that there can be serious consequences for our actions.

Thanks guys!


Does the store have a policy expressly prohibiting weapons? Is there an employee handbook you can consult first before bringing attention to the employer? If you are within your legal right in your state I'm not sure I would open pandora's box until I had to. Odds are you aren't the only employee there in the same boat any casual way to bring up to any others about what they would do if someone tried to rob store during this busy season?

[TriggerMan]

Since your co-worker showed no alarm, he either 1. didn't care 2. didn't realize what he touched 3. has his own CCW piece (see #1). I think your good on this score.

As far as carrying at risk to your future employment, you merely need to evaluate the importance of this PT seasonal job versus your life. Do I need to help you with that evaluation? Thought not.

Carry on.

[ripley16]

* I doubt seriously that any retail business would formally allow an employee to carry a gun. Most security guards are unarmed.

* If the fellow employee didn't react/say something/fall to the floor, then I suggest you forget about it. He has.

* Recognise the situation as it is... you will probably be fired, or at least reprimanded, if they find out you carry.

* Don't be a hero. It isn't your money or jewelry. Your life is another matter of course, but don't protect the store, only protect your life.

[jocko]

well for sure if ur carrying now and have not gotten caught, and u have a ccw permit, , then if u ask the owner and they say absolutely no guns allowed, then u best never even think about carrying it to work for u have now alerted them to your desires. Don't ask don't tell . Maybe a smaller handgun might hide better, like a 380 or small 9mm. No doubt if u violate policy, u will be let go, if you never ask or have never seen written policy, if caught u might get that one chance to keep ur job due to no policy violation.. Don't discuss with other co-workers about CCW permit or carrying stuff. Act gun deaf and u will probably be OK. Most business places would rather see themselves getting robbed than seeing an employee open fire during a robbery. Use ur head and u will be OK.

actually Ripley could not have said it better, defend ur life not the store. There is as difference. Nice post ripley.

[muggsy]

Put a .380 in your pocket and wear a cell phone where you had your gun. Make sure he sees the cell phone. Problem solved.

[Popeye]

I sure would not carry in an "as needed" empolyee. I do not carry to protect someones business. That 's not my job, it's the store owners job to protect his business and employees. If I worked there as far as I'm concerned it would be help yourself boys. I'm not about to be some kind of hero for a part time job. I ough my family to be smarter than that. My LTCF says right on it for self defense. You shoot someone trying to protect his business which by the way you were not hired to do, and more than likely the store owner will pleed I know nothing about him carrying a gun to cover his ***, and he would not be lieing. Sometimes the best thing is to leave your gun at home to protect your ***. The only time my gun will ever clear leather is to protect my family or myself or if someone else is being beaten, sexually violated or shot at. If a store is just being robbed and no shots have been fired I'm not about to pull my gun as that might cause a whole other set problems where some innocent people might get hurt or killed. My gun will only appear when all else fails.

[TheTman]

Good advice Popeye! I wouldn't worry too much about the guy brushing up against you, most people don't have guns on their mind, he probably thought it was a back brace or something if he thought about it at all.

[JFootin]

+1. Don't worry about it. If he is an a**hole and rats you out, you can't prevent it now. If he doesn't, don't say anything to anyone. IMO, many store robbers nowadays think nothing of killing the witnesses, so that situation makes concealed carry a self defense issue.

A good option for concealed carry that won't accidentally get discovered like that is the SmartCarry (http://www.smartcarry.com/). Nobody is going to be touching you inadvertently down there! I have one. Medium size. Will fit a lot of guns. Very comfortable. Thunder71 uses one for his PM9 at work.

[Bill K]

If it were me I'd used the SmartCarry in a non-permissive environment - I'm assuming you're not breaking any state laws or statutes in which case I'd not offer you an opinion. When leaving work I'd switch to pocket carry. Doing so could cost you your job should you ever have to use your gun in SD. I speak from personal experience having had once to use my gun in SD. I made the decision to retire rather than face discipline from the company that I worked for at the time. Asset Management, HR and Legal Department folks, I was told, were relieved because they didn't need to take action against me and deal the bad ink the company likely would have received. However, they would have been well within their rights to discipline or even fire me.

[Popeye]

I wouldn't worry to much about him knowing what he touched. I was at a wedding in a not so great area of the city. Bride gave me a hug and one of her hands landed straight on top of my gun. She didn't even show the slightest incling of what she had her hand on.. That gun must have gotten bumped and brushed against a dozen times that day.
With todays cameras I believe most crooks who are out to rob a jewelry store are more than likely going to be wearing masks. Shooting the employees is a whole other charge that can be used against them. Cameras will show twice as much as any startled witness will ever remember. One other thing to also to think about is the owner pays insurance for such things.
Rule #1 when CC is Cover your own *** because if you don't others will throw you under the bus as many times as it takes to save there's.

[Bawanna]

I'd carry without question. All good points above, don't protect the merchandise but if your a sheepdog and you obviously are you can protect yourself and your co workers.
Bad guys aren't known for high IQ's, punks on mental stimulants who usually have very little to stimulate don't think of cameras or anything else, they got one track minds. LOOT!
In a robbery I'd be submissive, with the help yourself boys attitude mentioned earlier. If they walk thru the door and shoot the unarmed security guard in the head then toss the employee handbook out the window and release the beast.
I'd not ask unless you want an answer you don't want to hear. I've learned that in city government and police work for about 16 years.
I'm specifically forbidden to carry on city campus as are all employees except sworn officers. I carry two when I arrive. I'm allowed to lock my Cbob in a safe about 16"'s from my elbow at my desk. The PM45 rides on my ankle, before it was my K40 and before that my Colt Cobra. I wore it the day I interviewed as a volunteer and I've worn it everyday since.
They know it, they don't question it, they officially are dumb to it and I'm ok with that.
An example of their knowlege is occasionally they will have a birthday or something and everyone there officers and records will go to a restaurant or something and someone will have to stay to cover the front desk. I can't because I'm deaf but because I don't like restaurants I always stay behind. They frequently have me work from an area close to the front desk "just in case". How much protection can a 5'6" guy in a wheelchair provide without a gun? Hmmm me thinks they know.
Course I also have access to 40 AR15's and a dozen or so Glock 21's 3 of which are in the same safe with the Cbob so if I decide to go nut case, I won't lack for tools.
When you have your gun you are a sheepdog, when you leave it behind your a sheep.
Damn I got long winded this time.....................

[jocko]

naw not really long winded, FULL of it maybe though.

[Bawanna]

Speaking of long winded, where the heck is Wynn lately. I don't got time to be keeping track of you guys all the time.
Speaking of which I better check in with Dietrich and see how he's doing.

[QuercusMax]

I wouldn't worry to much about him knowing what he touched.

Totally agree.

Everyone who participates in this discussion board does so because they are very interested in firearms, thus are likely to have carry permits and be very acutely aware of "carrying." But I don't think the same is true of the general population. The vast majority of people in this country do not have carry permits and thus are not constantly thinking of who might be carrying a gun. In fact, before I got my carry permit, I *never* thought of this myself.

But many (most?) people today actually do "carry" --- not guns, but electronic gadgets in their pockets, on their belts or in their purses. Thus if someone sees or feels something on another person, it is much more likely to be an iPhone or something of that ilk, and thus unlikely to arouse any suspicion - unless they actually see what it is. And besides, most people's main reaction to "detecting" something on another person's body likely would be embarrassment over having intruded on someone else's privacy.

Those of us on this board are hyper-aware of things that most others never think about.

[jocko]

and ur dead right there. I carry 24.7 in my jeans, with my PM9. Drike coffee very often with some state trooper riding friends of mine. NEVER once has one ever noticed or ask what is in my front pocket. I think we tend to read to much into THIS PRINTING STUFF. My 2 cents worth, which in europe is worth about 1.65 cents..

[OldLincoln]

The don't ask don't tell policy is best in this case. The store probably doesn't want to address it even if they suspect someone is carrying. Called plausible deniability. They want to be able to say they didn't know you were carrying to avoid liability.

Whether you carry or not is up to you but I'm thinking a jewelery store at Christmas is a tad higher risk than the local grocery store and I bet you carry there. If they approach you on it they are not likely to fire you for it so at that point you either stop carrying there or resign. But that's a decision you don't have to make right now.

[LaP]

I was asked about "That Lump" on my side when I was brushed against at a business meeting. He came right out and said "What the hell is that!?" in a very loud and surprised voice. I just looked deadpan at him and said loudly "It's a medical device. Do you want to see it?" He turned redfaced and stammered some lame appology.
END OF DISCUSSION. :cool:

[yatyas42]

There was a pharmacist at a walgreens not to long ago, who was carrying against company policy. He was robbed at gun point by several idiots, and wound up doing what they forced him to do. I believe he neutralized the one pointing the gun at him, and the others fled. Walgreens threw him under the bus, and fired him for carrying. Moral of the story is no one but bad guy got hurt, and thats all that matters! You can get the full story and video on youtube, as my facts may be a little off. Walgreens lost a customer here that day. There is a big difference between law and policy. If you are within the law, then it seems like a no brainer to me.

[jlottmc]

Here's my take: the less that know the better off you are. When it's all said and done, and the smoke clears, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. That and I can always find another job.

[TriggerMan]

Totally agree.

Everyone who participates in this discussion board does so because they are very interested in firearms, thus are likely to have carry permits and be very acutely aware of "carrying." But I don't think the same is true of the general population. The vast majority of people in this country do not have carry permits and thus are not constantly thinking of who might be carrying a gun. In fact, before I got my carry permit, I *never* thought of this myself.

But many (most?) people today actually do "carry" --- not guns, but electronic gadgets in their pockets, on their belts or in their purses. Thus if someone sees or feels something on another person, it is much more likely to be an iPhone or something of that ilk, and thus unlikely to arouse any suspicion - unless they actually see what it is. And besides, most people's main reaction to "detecting" something on another person's body likely would be embarrassment over having intruded on someone else's privacy.

Those of us on this board are hyper-aware of things that most others never think about.I recently saw some stats for Michigan as part of an article about how we have fared since going from "May Issue" to "Shall Issue" about 10 years ago. First, there hasn't been blood in the streets. A few opponents of our revised gun law are now supportive of CCW.

The stat that caught my eye was this: of all the over 21 people in Michigan, about 278,000 have a CPL. That is about 1 in 27. My hunch is that a large number of those holding permits do not carry 24/7/365. Your odds of being in a room with a legal gun are probably less than one in 35-40. What we don't know is how many have illegal guns. Probably about the same ration. Not all of those are used in criminal activity.

Any facts about your State?

[MikeyKahr]

Any facts about your State?

Ohio just passed 250,000 licensees.

As for Wyn and his whereabouts, isn't it about time for his trek up to the PRO of Illinois?



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[MO_Soldier]

WOW!! Nice posts guys! Thank you all.

In order to save time, I will answer critical points chronologically instead of quoting 20 people and have a 1 page post.

1)I haven't found any such policy prohibiting it, and am combing the policy book with a fine tooth comb after this busy weekend.
2)I may casually bring up thefts and such. I asked today if we had silent alarms. Answer: NO!
3)Others in the store are openly pro-gun and want to get their own. But I can't account for every single person there yet.
4)Thanks but no thanks triggerman. That's exactly why I am already carrying!
5)Ripley16 and other like him: I'm totally on the same page with you guys. TAKE THE DIAMONDS!! But hold a gun to me, and your @$$ is grass!
6)Nice idea Muggsy, but I don't think I need to be so elaborate after working with him again today. I carried back pocket today because I had no belt for my holster. I liked that a lot!
7)Popeye: See#5, I'm in total agreement!
8)JFootin: The smartcarry won't work if I'm lucky! haha just kidding!! I agree with your statement too. I'm potentially in harms way, and ONLY if myself or a coworker is about to be severely injured or killed, will I EVER draw my weapon.
9)Great point quercusmax: Now that you mention it, neither did I.
10)LaP: Unfortunately I can't pull that excuse. I'm a 21 yo enlisted male in good shape. I can't conceive any type of brace or device I could use as a cover-up. But maybe in a few years I'll pull that one out.

Thanks again for all of your input guys! It gives me piece of mind that even though I'm may or may not be by the book, I'm morally right and can have confidence in the level-minded protection of myself and others!

[Bawanna]

I would suggest that even if you find everyone is pro gun and even if the owner gives you a blessing to carry (again I would not ask) I would not show your cards. Don't let anyone know. In a robbery they could very well expose you either on purpose or accidently even if only looking at you to save them.

Hopefully you'll never need it but if you do, let it be a surprise to everyone bad and good.

Just my nickels worth, I'm out of 2 cent pieces.

[MO_Soldier]

I would suggest that even if you find everyone is pro gun and even if the owner gives you a blessing to carry (again I would not ask) I would not show your cards. Don't let anyone know. In a robbery they could very well expose you either on purpose or accidently even if only looking at you to save them.

Hopefully you'll never need it but if you do, let it be a surprise to everyone bad and good.

Just my nickels worth, I'm out of 2 cent pieces.

Bawanna...you're only ever throwing quarters into the forums haha

[jocko]

I would suggest that even if you find everyone is pro gun and even if the owner gives you a blessing to carry (again I would not ask) I would not show your cards. Don't let anyone know. In a robbery they could very well expose you either on purpose or accidently even if only looking at you to save them.

Hopefully you'll never need it but if you do, let it be a surprise to everyone bad and good.

Just my nickels worth, I'm out of 2 cent pieces.

kills me to hav eto say this:

BUT u hit the nail square on the head. better advice could not have cme from the Pope on that even. Now I have to call Fed X anbd see if I can get that damn horse head returned before it ghets toyou. It was for that "GOLD WING" comment in case ur wondering..;)

[JFootin]

I would suggest that even if you find everyone is pro gun and even if the owner gives you a blessing to carry (again I would not ask) I would not show your cards. Don't let anyone know. In a robbery they could very well expose you either on purpose or accidentally even if only looking at you to save them.

Hopefully you'll never need it but if you do, let it be a surprise to everyone bad and good.

Just my nickels worth, I'm out of 2 cent pieces.

+1. By all means, don't tell ANYONE you are carrying. And don't imply it by discussing the issue with them. Avoid the discussion entirely. You don't want to have to depend on THEIR discretion when TSHTF. Ideally, it would be tactically advantageous if they are just as surprised as the BGs when you deploy your weapon.

BTW, the SmartCarry can be slid sideways when you need to drain the tank, or you get lucky :p.

[WMD]

Another point of view on co-workers knowing you are carrying is this.... It is one thing to worry about co-workers telling a bad guy you have a gun but....., if the robbery is an inside job, the perp will take you out first because he/she know you are carrying. Essentially, you are a target.

I think everyone on this forum will agree you are morally right. However, I would really check out the laws in your state and also what precedence has been set in similar situations. You can be prosecuted by the state or civil action can be taken against you by the (dead or wounded) perp's family. You might get off but it may drain you of every nickel you have, and will make, for the next 20 years.

I have been in your position and understand exactly what you are going through. About 10 years ago I worked at a place that forbade firearms on premise. At the same time there is a bad guy out there who has my name on a bullet (long story, not for this forum). The company knew this but still would not give me permission to carry. My particular state is not gun friendly and has a history of putting the screws to the good guy in these type of situations.

It is really a tough situation. I am just suggesting that you do your homework regarding your state as well as your company. Look at worse case examples of what may happen to you if you need to use your gun. Then make a decision.

It is unfortunate that law abiding citizens have to go through this crap but unfortunately that is how it is. If you were a bad guy, you would not have to pay attention to the rules. Their "job" is to violate the rules, that's why they are bad guys. Of course. as we all know, that is why gun laws are useless. They only restrict the good guy!

Good luck with your decision!

[muggsy]

If it were me I'd used the SmartCarry in a non-permissive environment - I'm assuming you're not breaking any state laws or statutes in which case I'd not offer you an opinion. When leaving work I'd switch to pocket carry. Doing so could cost you your job should you ever have to use your gun in SD. I speak from personal experience having had once to use my gun in SD. I made the decision to retire rather than face discipline from the company that I worked for at the time. Asset Management, HR and Legal Department folks, I was told, were relieved because they didn't need to take action against me and deal the bad ink the company likely would have received. However, they would have been well within their rights to discipline or even fire me.

Gives new meaning to the words, "Is that a gun your carrying or are you just happy to see me?" Mae West :)

[dh2683]

I try to live by the phrase: ALWAYS CARRY & NEVER TELL.

Don't let the other "pro gun employes" throw you under the bus.

[JFootin]

I try to live by the phrase: ALWAYS CARRY & NEVER TELL.

+1! I was rattling my brain trying to remember this quote. This says it succinctly.

[jocko]

small rattle, I bet!!

[JFootin]

small rattle, I bet!!

Yeah, 'cause there's not much room for my big brain to rattle around in there! :behindsofa:

[jocko]

many would call that DREAMIN". course u might just have a very small head to?????

[JFootin]

many would call that DREAMIN". course u might just have a very small head to?????

Actually, on the news I heard that they have found that autistic children have large, heavy brains - up to 18 oz heavier than average. I have a sneaking suspicion that I am mildly autistic. I have a high I.Q. with peaks of brilliance. But I am socially awkward and have no common sense - like they say Albert Einstein couldn't tie his shoes. :rolleyes: My head is fairly large. And interestingly, though I am an average sized man and never have been an athlete or body builder, I have an almost 20" neck, evidently to hold the extra weight up. :tongue: Oh, how I wish I had a more balanced intelligence and personality. But I seem to fit in here pretty well! LOL! :D

[jocko]

can't argue that point, u fit well on this forum that is for sure, u realize I am just sh-tin u about all of this..

My dog is autistic, not I mean spastic. still have one yorkie left:D

[QuercusMax]

I try to live by the phrase: ALWAYS CARRY & NEVER TELL.


Good advice.

"Don't bluster, don't flourish your revolver and never draw unless you intend to shoot." - Roosevelt (the good one)

[yqtszhj]

Good advice on this whole topic. Don't ask, don't tell, give them the bad guy the diamonds if he wants them, but protect yourself if you have to.

[MO_Soldier]

Good advice on this whole topic. Don't ask, don't tell, give them the bad guy the diamonds if he wants them, but protect yourself if you have to.

In a nut shell that is exactly the consensus and I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one that felt that way.

I loved the comment on not telling my coworkers for they may be an inside job. That was something that I never thought of. People around me whether they are students, soldiers, or coworkers should be the last people to know my habits and preventative tactics. This will change a lot for me in day-to-day life.

[tv_racin_fan]

Bit up the road at a grocery store an armed guard was shot and killed. Turned out to be an inside job.

This guy seemed to be a pretty likeable guy. Anyway one evening as I was walking out I asked him what he was carrying (obviously a Glock..). So he replied a 9mm. I spun around and said cool me too then flashed the grip on my K9. Unknown to me at the time a young checker was walking behind me and he asked what I was carrying. I replied a Kahr and he said they were cool, nice and small. On retrospect that was not a very smart thing to do.

Even worse, it seems to be that the one checker that had spotted my handgun once when I was grabbing my wallet was the inside man...

I generally carry in a pocket but now and again, according to pants I'm wearing, I'll clip the holster I use to the edge of the pocket and the grip sticks out

[Armybrat]

Say Mo Soldier,

Did your older gentleman coworker bat his eyes at you when he brushed up against you?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

[MO_Soldier]

Say Mo Soldier,

Did your older gentleman coworker bat his eyes at you when he brushed up against you?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

No, I'm not a woman and he's not gay.

[latinlaw]

Ripley 16 hit the nail on the head. If you decide to carry, do it to protect lives not property. There was a recent case of a Pharmacist working for Walgreens getting fired for drawing his weapon during a robbery. But then there is the Father's Day murder of 4 people in a NY pharmacy this year during a robbery. Think I would rather be looking for a job than shot by some mutt. I am an LEO in NY. The holidays are ROBBERY SEASON! I carry a PM9 most of the time. During the holidays its a Glock 36 .45 caliber and 2 extra mags. Some poster gave suggestions on how to carry. Just be aware that you need to PRACTICE drawing from whatever carry method you use. As an LEO I always practiced drawing from the duty holster on my hip. When I went on an undercover assignment I decided to carry from a shoulder holster. I went to draw down on a mutt and reached for, you guessed it, my non existent hip holster! Took a second to realize I was reaching for air. A second.....which could have cost me my life. The decision is obviously yours. A lot of my coworkers work side jobs in security where they are prohibited from being armed despite being LEO's. The all carry on the 'down low' when feasible. Better to have it and not need it......than need it and not have it.

[johnh]

MO Soldier is in Missouri, and we have no law here against carrying at work unless it is posted by the business or is on a list of places where you cannot carry. Jewelry stores are not on that list, so can carry unless the business posts otherwise. They must do so with a sign that complies with the law in terms of font size and being easily visible. As far as civil liability, we have a law saying that anyone using force to defend themselves cannot be sued for it if legally justified. As long as you are in the right, you are safe. Sounds to me like there are no legal questions, just tactical/planning ones. Lots of good advise on that on this thread.

[Armybrat]

No, I'm not a woman and he's not gay.

Please lighten up...I was just makin' a joke.

[MO_Soldier]

Please lighten up...I was just makin' a joke.

I was just answering it. No attitude here :)

[MO_Soldier]

Had another close call with a different coworker at the same store.
The other one has gone without a second thought like you all has suggested.
I wear a 3 piece suit at work there. I go deep concealed, tucking my CrossB holster with clips under belt, so even when my suit top is off, I'm concealed. So as we were putting stuff up at the end of the night, I got a bit lax, and took my jacket off, and my clips were over my belt.
My coworker noticed them and literally pointed 2 inches away and asked, "What's that?" lol. I thought real quick and replied that it's a clever device that keeps my shirt tucked in haha. I left out the part about it concealing my death-bringer. He bought it hook line and sinker and I didn't hear another thing about it.

This does leave me with 1 dilemma though. I want to wear my clips under my belt so OTHERS don't notice, just for good measure. But now he may question it if I do that. He's a pretty sharp guy and former Marine. He could eventually put 2 and 2 together if I let him.

I'm not worried, just giving a comical update. Thanks all!

[JFootin]

Do like me and Thunder71 and get a SmartCarry. It will permanently solve your problem.

[Thunder71]

Do like me and Thunder71 and get a SmartCarry. It will permanently solve your problem.

Yep, what he said. That reminds me, I'm wearing mine now.

[CJB]

If anyone asks, tell them its the top pour spout of your colostomy bag. They wont go further.

[Bawanna]

I have to think if he was a pretty sharp guy and a former Marine he would have known what it was and was just letting you know that he knew.

[jeepster09]

The "tell no one" rule is good......my wife does not even know that I carry. One day my son in law [who is a fed] said "hey what are you carrying today?" I blew him off and got a funny look from my wife wondering what he was talking about.
If people know, if something goes bad, they are going to be looking to you for help and it may get you killed.