Univ Calif Davis protest

[knkali]

Do you think the police were too aggressive in using pepper spray? Did they need to at that juncture?

Thoughts?

I am pro police but, the stuff I saw on TV which probably has been filtered, it did not look like it was needed. From what I saw the kids could have been moved without them resisting.

[Bawanna]

I have to agree with the police chief, the "kids" probably would have been hurt far more without the spray.

I did not like the flamboyant attitude of the officer walking back and forth doing the application. That does nothing to help an already fragile opinion of LE in general.

Pepper spray while painful doesn't leave any permanent damage.

I have to laugh at the media "So shocking":eek: Ok, recall all the officers and send in Dr. Phil.

Remember a law that isn't enforced is merely a suggestion.

[knkali]

"a law that is not enforced is merely a suggestion" great line.

I am sure there are tactical protocols for them to follow--did they? I would have liked to see the police try to remove them. If they resist then spray the heck out of anyone who resists. The others would probably fall in line. If not then it is a spray fest. I think that action would have done more for the police position on this than just cans blaz'n from the get go.

Funny, when I was in school, I didnt have time for such things. Too busy studying and working and trying to get through it to even consider such actions.

Dr. Phil....funny.

[Bawanna]

I'm not arguing or defending the police just carrying on the conversation just for the sake of discussion.

But I imagine the scenario went something like this. Kids, or perhaps Children you are ordered to disperse immediately. They no doubt responded with all kinds of colorful and educational responses, comparing police to swine type animals and no one moved. Stick it to the man, it's our constitutional right defended by brave war hero's while we were cultivating our marijuana and distributing illegal substances. (IE: The college program)

This was undoubtedly repeated at least 3 times. The media of course wouldn't show this because that would spoil their headline grabbing police shocking brutality opening scenes for the news.

Now imagine we eliminate the pepper spray. It's sticks and batons, move em out. That's what the media would really like.

The media has an amazing ability to turn the simplest situation into a major shocking thing. Nobody watches the news to watch the boy scout help grandma across the street, they watch the boy scout take her purse, slit her throat with cops in the donut shop in the background not doing anything.

[Barth]

When I was in high school, freshman and sophomores weren’t allowed to leave campus for lunch.
Everybody did it anyway, whatever.

One day somebody got the bright idea for us to all walk off campus,
in mass, at high noon, right out the front entrance.
My freshman class alone numbered over 1000 students.
Word was spread and stool pigeons squealed.
As the crowd of over 1500 students gathered at the School entrance
a string of patrol cars pulled up.
A line of officers holding billy clubs formed on the other side of the street.
We all looked at the cops, looked at each other and the crowd dissolved.
Separating into small groups, we left the school grounds via various other
exits for lunch - as usual.

That was my first, and last, school protest

[Bawanna]

I never remember seeing a cop at our high school even after some bloody fist fights, dope, cigarettes at that time, never saw one.
Now we got a full time officer at the High School every day. So much as push another kid and the get charged with assault.
It's a different thing now days.
I'm kind of partial to the old days myself.

[getsome]

I have to agree with Bawanna as to how this may have gone down because all we see is a small part of the event so I try to never jump to conclusions with all the U-Tube stuff out there...If the police just started blasting spray without trying other means to disperse the crowd then they may have over reacted but I doubt that was the case but not being there we have no way of knowing....

The Police have a hard enough job already without having to deal with all the Occupy whatever crowd and if they want to peacefully gather and voice their opinion then fine but to have a bunch of people sitting arms locked and refusing to stand up and leave then I think the Police are within their rights to use whatever non lethal tools they have to do their job and remove them...

There was a case here in Atlanta a couple of days ago where 2 DeKalb County Officers arrested a young man on a shoplifting charge and he refused to go quietly and spit in both offcers face as they were putting him in their patrol car so they took him to jail but made a little detour behind the building first and got in the back seat with him and taught him a thing or two about resisting arrest and disrespecting a Police Officer...

Another Officer heard the comotion and came to help but saw what was going on and turned the two officers in and they are currently on unpaid leave pending an Internal Affairs investigation...

Did they overstep their authority? Yes absolutely they did but in my personal opinion if you run from the Police, resist arrest or do something so stupid as to spit in an Officers face I think the Officer should have every right to BEAT THE EVER LOVING CRAP out of you which is how it used to be done back when people respected a Police Officer and his badge!!!

[jeepster09]

Just like in any business, there are good employees and bad employees. Back when I was an officer in Saint Paul, I worked with a total jerk who felt EVERYONE was a "slimeball". Needless to say I dumped him as fast as I could. He always brought out the worst in people he delt with. I agree, the spray was much better than using night sticks. However, perhaps it could of been handled differently, it's easy to be a critic afterwards. Like already said we don't know what led up to it.

[TriggerMan]

I never remember seeing a cop at our high school even after some bloody fist fights, dope, cigarettes at that time, never saw one.
Now we got a full time officer at the High School every day. So much as push another kid and the get charged with assault.
It's a different thing now days.
I'm kind of partial to the old days myself.We didn't need them in my day (Class of 1968) either . My HS had Father Brown, a former boxer, and Father French a sparing partner and hockey coach. I once saw the front of my metal locker from very, very close range. Forgot to say Sir or Father. My bad.

[TriggerMan]

Just like in any business, there are good employees and bad employees. Back when I was an officer in Saint Paul, I worked with a total jerk who felt EVERYONE was a "slimeball". Needless to say I dumped him as fast as I could. He always brought out the worst in people he delt with. I agree, the spray was much better than using night sticks. However, perhaps it could of been handled differently, it's easy to be a critic afterwards. Like already said we don't know what led up to it.I read that everyone was asked to disperse, nearly ALL did. They were given a letter from the University explaining why they could not stay. Some think this is a Free Speech issue. It's not. Civil disobedience can be noble but always has consequences.

[jeepster09]

I have to agree with Bawanna as to how this may have gone down because all we see is a small part of the event so I try to never jump to conclusions with all the U-Tube stuff out there...If the police just started blasting spray without trying other means to disperse the crowd then they may have over reacted but I doubt that was the case but not being there we have no way of knowing....

The Police have a hard enough job already without having to deal with all the Occupy whatever crowd and if they want to peacefully gather and voice their opinion then fine but to have a bunch of people sitting arms locked and refusing to stand up and leave then I think the Police are within their rights to use whatever non lethal tools they have to do their job and remove them...

There was a case here in Atlanta a couple of days ago where 2 DeKalb County Officers arrested a young man on a shoplifting charge and he refused to go quietly and spit in both offcers face as they were putting him in their patrol car so they took him to jail but made a little detour behind the building first and got in the back seat with him and taught him a thing or two about resisting arrest and disrespecting a Police Officer...

Another Officer heard the comotion and came to help but saw what was going on and turned the two officers in and they are currently on unpaid leave pending an Internal Affairs investigation...

Did they overstep their authority? Yes absolutely they did but in my personal opinion if you run from the Police, resist arrest or do something so stupid as to spit in an Officers face I think the Officer should have every right to BEAT THE EVER LOVING CRAP out of you which is how it used to be done back when people respected a Police Officer and his badge!!!


I dissagree, getting spit at unfortunately comes with the territory. If they can't deal with that without beating someone up with club they should not be a cop. Now a blast of mace in the face is a fair exchange for getting spit at if you ask me......I know a few that have ate a fair amount of mace.:D

[Bawanna]

We didn't need them in my day (Class of 1968) either . My HS had Father Brown, a former boxer, and Father French a sparing partner. I once saw the front of my metal locker from very very close range. Forgot to say Sir or Father. My bad.

There ya go. And people for the most part had respect for cops, their badge and other people in general.

Now we have dicipline by positive reinforcement. Thank you junior for not beating the crap out of little Bobby today, I'm so proud.

+1 on Jeepster too, there are alot of badge toters who really shouldn't be toting a badge. Sheep dogs and Wolves look alot alike and a few now and then get through the system and get sheep dog credentials. Not good for everyone else.

[getsome]

Yea Jeep, your'e probably right about the nightsicks but perhaps an accidental taze to the twins might get the point across even better...:eek:

[knkali]

I'm not arguing or defending the police just carrying on the conversation just for the sake of discussion.

But I imagine the scenario went something like this. Kids, or perhaps Children you are ordered to disperse immediately. They no doubt responded with all kinds of colorful and educational responses, comparing police to swine type animals and no one moved. Stick it to the man, it's our constitutional right defended by brave war hero's while we were cultivating our marijuana and distributing illegal substances. (IE: The college program)

This was undoubtedly repeated at least 3 times. The media of course wouldn't show this because that would spoil their headline grabbing police shocking brutality opening scenes for the news.

Now imagine we eliminate the pepper spray. It's sticks and batons, move em out. That's what the media would really like.

The media has an amazing ability to turn the simplest situation into a major shocking thing. Nobody watches the news to watch the boy scout help grandma across the street, they watch the boy scout take her purse, slit her throat with cops in the donut shop in the background not doing anything.

agreed. we only get a what the media wants to sell.

[jeepster09]

Yea Jeep your'e probably right anout the nightsicks but perhaps an accidental taze to the twins might get the point across even better...:eek:

EXCEPT.....tazers have counters and now alot also have cameras on them; taze counts need to be documented and report written. Mace cans do not count number of sprays.:75: Mace REALLY burns!:eek:

[knkali]

There ya go. And people for the most part had respect for cops, their badge and other people in general.

Now we have dicipline by positive reinforcement. Thank you junior for not beating the crap out of little Bobby today, I'm so proud.

+1 on Jeepster too, there are alot of badge toters who really shouldn't be toting a badge. Sheep dogs and Wolves look alot alike and a few now and then get through the system and get sheep dog credentials. Not good for everyone else.

well said by all

[muggsy]

When you are given a lawful order by the police you follow that lawful order or suffer the consequences. We cannot allow anarchy to rein on our streets. My hat is off to the police who showed restraint. Using pepper spray isn't an excessive use of force.

[knkali]

So guys, if we dont have all the facts because the media manipulates the stories to sell ??. Is public opinion for Sudusky(sp), the Penn State guy accused of child molestation a victim of this media manipulation too? How do we know what the truth is when we read or see things in the media? Maybe that is the bigger question here in this thread?

[knkali]

When you are given a lawful order by the police you follow that lawful order or suffer the consequences. We cannot allow anarchy to rein on our streets. My hat is off to the police who showed restraint. Using pepper spray isn't an excessive use of force.

Muggsy, those days are long gone unfortunately. I was raised to do what a LEO tells you. No ifs, ands, or buts

[Bawanna]

I don't think you ever get all the facts and the ones you do get are twisted and manipulated. If Sandusky did half what they accuse him of then I say book him Dano but we'll never get the straight story on the evening news. I'm still a little perplexed at the age level of the guys he allegedly abused. Seems like they were old enough but what do I know, I only see it on the news which I rarely bother to watch.

Same with candidates for election. You hear good things about the ones the media supports and nothing or bad things about everyone else.

[getsome]

Well kenkali you have a good point about not taking the media's opinion without looking into something a little deeper...As for that slime ball Sandusky, he has admitted to taking showers with 8 year old little boys and there was a witness to him abusing a kid which started the whole mess in the first place and now more young men are coming out about him as well so with that much smoke there is definitely some fire there....I have no use and patience at all for pedaphiles and I think they should be shot down like rabid dogs because they is no cure for their so called condition, never has been and never will be except a bullet...I hope he gets whats coming to him in the big boy jails shower!!!....

[Chuck54]

I wonder if all of the protesters were students maybe some were outsiders.



The protesters were resisting ...... interlocking arms and refusing to move!



I think the pepper spray would have been just as effective if it had been dispersed from several yards away .......... at least it would not have looked as shocking to the media. At least they didn't wet them down and cattle prod them.


Wonder if the media would still be pro protester if the protesters had been blocking a major intersection at rush hour.

[Bawanna]

That's actually one of my favorite fantasies. Protesters or Muslims parading out into a main intersection to lock arms or throw down their prayer rugs and I'm the first car in line!:D:rolleyes:

Oh happy day!

[knkali]

is that spray the LEOs were using different from the stuff the public can buy? That cop looked like he was painting a fence orange

[BEARDOG]

What if ?... those college kid's were instead a group of peaceful pro gun activist's holding a completely non-violent pro gun rally, and they were given the same treatment?

[Bawanna]

I suspect that group would find a better way to display their message. I'd never attend a rally and if I did and the police showed up they wouldn't even have to ask me to leave. I'd already be looking for the exit.

[Chuck54]

If told to disperse (stop blocking passage ways) and you don't you should expect the same treatment no matter what your cause is.

[mr surveyor]

personally, I am fed up with the "occupy" crap.... just as I was as a teenager during the late 60's crap. The ignorant college students, with absolutely NO life experiences, have no business making demands on society or anyone. I say, if they get out of line with their silly "civil disobedience", spray 'em all and let God sort them out.

When they have experienced the "real world" for a while, and have enough maturity to actually have earned some semblance of judgement, then protest away. Making a comparison of these nymps to firearms owners is just downright silly.

Just my opinions, and they are pretty set in stone;)

surv

[Chuck54]

Sandusky ? :puke:


When I was involved in team sports I never recall seeing a coach show up in the team shower!

The coaches all had their own locker room and showers.


The coaches in my era would suspend you for snapping each other with towels in they caught you.

[apheod]

why is this the video that shocks and disgusts people? the police have been beating, tasing, and pepper spraying peaceful protestors almost since the beginning of these protests.

you can find at least 15 videos on youtube of people offering no resistance being full on punched in the face, elbows thrown to the heads (of a woman) beaten with batons, having their heads slammed into concrete, fenced in women doing nothing but standing there pepper sprayed by some waffen SS wannabe named tony bologna, (real name) run over and then having motorcycles PARKED on top of them... the list goes on. they've shot a veteran in the face at point blank range with a tear gas canister, almost killing him, he still cannot speak from what i understand. they beat a pregnant 20 yr old and an 83 yr old woman. THIS is the one that gets people's attention?

meanwhile, it seems the majority of people don't care that these people's rights are being violated, because they don't agree with their views, and it doesn't affect them. i don't agree with a lot of their views either, but you can't just pick and choose which rights you will idly stand by and allow to be violated, because sooner or later it comes your turn. same thing happened in germany, when it was just the commies, nobody but the commies cared much. then it was the jews, the gypsies, the homosexuals, the slavs, the mentally handicapped... you either stand for and protect ALL of our rights, or you risk losing all of them.

as far as disobeying a "lawful order," just because a cop tells you to do something, doesn't make it legal or lawful. "i'm sorry, you cannot exercise your first amendment right to assemble today, move or suffer the consequences" IMO is no more lawful an order than "i'm sorry, you no longer have your 2nd amendment right, turn over your weapons or you will be fired upon."

sure they were in the street and these dangerous individuals were a huge threat to the heavily armed/armored officers who had no place else to go (sarcasm), but these people are being told "you've made your point, no more right to assemble for you" no matter where they choose to assemble, in most cities around the country. i wasn't aware the 1st amendment had a statute of limitations attached.

again, i might not agree with everything they're about, but their rights are being violated IMHO. i certainly do agree that big business and bankers are far too involved with todays politics, and that the system has been completely corrupted from what it was intended to be. our rights are mitigated, infringed, and outright denied all the time, and it will only get worse over time.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK

[mr surveyor]

it seems to me that some here would be o.k. with inexperienced, ignorant, 18-22 year olds running the nation.

[Bawanna]

One last installment from me. The police (waffen ss wannabes) were told to go and clear an area. There was no issue of rights or beliefs or rich corporate folks giving their money to occupy folks so we're all equal.

The issue was the gentle peace loving protesters who were all grandmas favorite from what I understand were in an area they were prohibited from occupying, not unlike the occupy folks which I'm sure are all just fine folks as well.

The waffen ss wannabes aren't there to discuss, they are there following orders from city or state leaders to move people along and open the flow to the nasty normal citizen a holes who have business in the area or want to enjoy the park like setting.

Move or be moved. Simple as that.

I'm out of this one but I'll be watching. Don't do me ugly.

[apheod]

if you're referring to me, how did you get that from me saying too many politicians are bought out scum only representing the firm who gives the largest payout, and that people posing no physical threat to anyone should not be beaten, tased, sprayed, and arrested on trumped up charges?

and my issue here is not particularly what happened at davis, it's the way most of these protests are being dealt with now that they've "run their course" according to the powers that be, regardless of whether they are "allowed" to stand in public places.

[O'Dell]

I never remember seeing a cop at our high school even after some bloody fist fights, dope, cigarettes at that time, never saw one.
Now we got a full time officer at the High School every day. So much as push another kid and the get charged with assault.
It's a different thing now days.
I'm kind of partial to the old days myself.

Those days were certainly different. I obviously go back further than you. Police in schools? never happened. The teachers took care of any problem and the problems were few. My HS had about 2000 students. No dope, no drinking, maybe a few smoked, but they were the crowd no one associated with. I never saw a fight at school. I had a couple but they were after school hours and back in the neighborhood.

[knkali]

apheopd makes a great point or two. So the lessons here in this thread are: we only get part of the story, and dont be so quick to thwart the right for people to assemble and protest. Doing so creates a slippery slope for the degradation of other rights we all have here.

[apheod]

another point i'd like to make... it's an EXTREMELY slippery slope to go around saying "don't blame the cops, (or soldiers) they're only following orders."

that implies that no matter what order they're given, up to and including to disarm the populace, start rounding up "dissidents" and "enemy combatants" (people who don't agree with government policies and are outspoken about it) within the US, and putting them into the highly secured, clandestine, guantanamo bay-like camps they have built, ready, and not currently being used for anything all around the country, that anyone resisting them is unpatriotic scum, and an enemy of the country.

those who would disregard the constitution and follow order clearly contradicting that vital document are the enemy of the state. i dont know for certain about police, but i do know that soldiers take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the united states, AND to obey the orders of the president. what about when those two conflict with each other? was the constitution being upheld and defended when national guard fired on students at kent state?

their duty should always be to defend the constitution above all else. too many don't understand that obligation, IMHO.

[getsome]

I can also see aphoedd's point of view on some of the issues and we must never go back to the civil rights movement days where people were firehosed and had attack dogs let loose on them just for standing up for their God given rights....

I can also see some of the occupy movements points such as it makes me angry that the banks and Wall street firms were given big tax payer bailouts and then turned right around and gave out big bonus awards to the executives for screwing up and after they got back on their feet the banks started forclosing on peoples homes that lost their jobs due to the economy being in the tank and got behind on their payments rather than trying to work with them...

The banks were real quick to take the money then raised interest rates out of the blue on customers credit card dept, debit cards and checking fees simply because they could.....That kind of thing ticks me off too but I think if the occupy movement would just do like any other law abiding group and get a city permit to use the parks for a day and make their opinions known and then go home at the end of the day it would do much to further their cause than how they are going about it now...

I see his point on how lobbyists for big business own Congress and to me that practice should be put to a halt...I think you would see a big shake up with career politicians who make millions under the table from lobbyists buying their vote which to me is no different than legalized bribery...

Well I'm going to get off my soap box and say no more on this post but I think it just goes to show what a great forum Kahrtalk is and that we can discuss any subject and behave like ladies and gentlemen and respect each others opinions and even sometimes agree to disagree but in a civilized way...

[Bawanna]

You won't have much of a military or a police force if your people are questioning every order you give because it might not be in the constitution. At least cops can quit, if they don't like the order.

[Chuck54]

Hmmmmm

Just let the protestors set where they want for as long as they want ??

[LMT42]

it seems to me that some here would be o.k. with inexperienced, ignorant, 18-22 year olds running the nation.

No one is advocating that ignorant and inexperienced 18-22 year olds run the country. They're merely pointing out that this is a slippery slope. The kids were engaged in non-violent, peaceful protest and didn't deserve to be maced. You may not agree with them, but try to look past that and remember Americans have the right to freedom of assembly.

I wouldn't mind them running the country though. They couldn't do any worse than the corrupt, egotistical, psychopathic, sorry excuses that have been running the country. Have you noticed that the world's financial system is on the brink of collapse? Ever heard of the unregulated 500 trillion dollar derivatives market? Aware that banks have received over one trillion dollars from taxpayers and they're still technically insolvent? Remember that the Iraq invasion was based on inaccurate, misleading, and false intel? Heard that the super committee has failed to reach an agreement on deficit reduction? I could go on all night. Politicians of both parties are worthless; so these ignorant and inexperienced kids couldn't possibly do any worse.

[ltxi]

No one is advocating that ignorant and inexperienced 18-22 year olds run the country. They're merely pointing out that this is a slippery slope. The kids were engaged in non-violent, peaceful protest and didn't deserve to be maced. You may not agree with them, but try to look past that and remember Americans have the right to freedom of assembly......



Back to the future.....late '60s as I recall.

And, nope, that wasn't me, guys....I was in the military then.

[knkali]

No one is advocating that ignorant and inexperienced 18-22 year olds run the country. They're merely pointing out that this is a slippery slope. The kids were engaged in non-violent, peaceful protest and didn't deserve to be maced. You may not agree with them, but try to look past that and remember Americans have the right to freedom of assembly.

I wouldn't mind them running the country though. They couldn't do any worse than the corrupt, egotistical, psychopathic, sorry excuses that have been running the country. Have you noticed that the world's financial system is on the brink of collapse? Ever heard of the unregulated 500 trillion dollar derivatives market? Aware that banks have received over one trillion dollars from taxpayers and they're still technically insolvent? Remember that the Iraq invasion was based on inaccurate, misleading, and false intel? Heard that the super committee has failed to reach an agreement on deficit reduction? I could go on all night. Politicians of both parties are worthless; so these ignorant and inexperienced kids couldn't possibly do any worse.

wow when itemized like this it is very sad indeed.

[John222]

Civil disobedience is necessary for democracy. Sometimes it's the only way to be heard. Remember the Tea Party going to all the town hall meetings and shouting everyone down. Suppose the the police were called and they told the crowd to shut up and then started peppering spraying anyone who spoke out. Somehow, I don't think Fox News would be siding with the police. But since Occupy does not have a conservative agenda they are vilified.