Look what happened to my $650 PM45 !

[mimi]

I just got my PM45. I cleaned it before going out to shoot the "200 rounds" that Kahr says I need to. Well at round 150 this is what happened. One of the plastic rails on the frame chipped, pics included. And then the mag split causing a terrible jam. I was barely able to get the mag out. Now we all know how much these things cost, and I don't know why. I have heard folks say that Kahr is selling a Keltec quality pistol for a Sig price and I am beginning to think that is true. Of course now I probably will have to send my expensive pistol in for work, being without it for God knows how long. I don't know if there are you that are like me but something is not cool about having to send such a "quality" pistol this early in back to the shop for repair. When I get it back I will always have it in the back of my mind "Will this thing work when I need it?" Not a good thought to have when carrying a pistol.
Am I the only one that has had this issue?

[yqtszhj]

I just got my PM45. I cleaned it before going out to shoot the "200 rounds" that Kahr says I need to. Well at round 150 this is what happened. One of the plastic rails on the frame chipped, pics included. And then the mag split causing a terrible jam. I was barely able to get the mag out. Now we all know how much these things cost, and I don't know why. I have heard folks say that Kahr is selling a Keltec quality pistol for a Sig price and I am beginning to think that is true. Of course now I probably will have to send my expensive pistol in for work, being without it for God knows how long. I don't know if there are you that are like me but something is not cool about having to send such a "quality" pistol this early in back to the shop for repair. When I get it back I will always have it in the back of my mind "Will this thing work when I need it?" Not a good thought to have when carrying a pistol.
Am I the only one that has had this issue?

Don't worry about the Polymer on the frame. The slide doesn't ride that part. It rides the metal at the rear and fromt of the frame. My CM9 and CW9 polymer wore a little bit at first during breakin but now it's smooth as silk. Kahr will send you a new mag too. Just give them a call.

[crazymailman]

What yqtszhj said. The plastic rails are really superficial and will sometimes have some wear on rough edges during break-in. The mags could be better though.

[Ikeo74]

That split could be a drawback to loading a new mag to full capacity before the springs are broken in. That could put extra pressure on the internal seams in the mag. The way to avoid this would be to load 1 less round until the springs limber up. Note: This may not apply to you if you loaded 1 less round already. When you force that last round into the new mag it overworks the whole gun which may have also caused the chip in the frame.:smash:

[yqtszhj]

Kahr will send you a new mag. Fill it up and enjoy shooting that PM45. The frame should be fine.

[JFootin]

Arrange to send them the pictures. If they see something needing further investigation, they can send you a prepaid shipping label by email. Be calm, polite and friendly with them. Their turnaround on it will be quick.

[BuckeyeBlast]

If they're going to do anything about the frame, wouldn't they end up just replacing the whole gun?

[ripley16]

That was just a faulty magazine. Kahr will replace it.

The polymer rails are for ease of assembly, not a functional part of the firing mechanism. Some rails wear, some don't. I wouldn't worry about that.

The bad mag would piss me off too, but Kahr readily and agreeably replaces bad mags. Send them an email with pictures of the failed mag.

[kramm]

I don't think you have any thing abnormal going on with the frame. Mine did about the same thing. I just cleaned it up and it's never given me a problem.
I just looked a a couple of my mags. they look the same as those in your picture. It look like the weld doesn't go all the way to the top. Just the way their made. Mine don't stick,they drop free. You might take some fine sand paper to your mags and kind of hit them lightly. I've read of some even polishing them. Good luck!

[Ikeo74]

You missed the break. it was on the left corner where it makes a 90 deg turn.

[ripley16]

You missed the break. it was on the left corner where it makes a 90 deg turn.

Looks like both sides split. A metal/metal working problem.

[donnyboy108]

I just got my PM45. I cleaned it before going out to shoot the "200 rounds" that Kahr says I need to. Well at round 150 this is what happened. One of the plastic rails on the frame chipped, pics included. And then the mag split causing a terrible jam. I was barely able to get the mag out. Now we all know how much these things cost, and I don't know why. I have heard folks say that Kahr is selling a Keltec quality pistol for a Sig price and I am beginning to think that is true. Of course now I probably will have to send my expensive pistol in for work, being without it for God knows how long. I don't know if there are you that are like me but something is not cool about having to send such a "quality" pistol this early in back to the shop for repair. When I get it back I will always have it in the back of my mind "Will this thing work when I need it?" Not a good thought to have when carrying a pistol.
Am I the only one that has had this issue?

I agree with Kahrs being overpriced... but since they have a pretty much monopoly on pocket sized, single stack, real caliber guns... I guess they can charge whatever they want.:eek:

[John Law]

mimi,
My PM45 has the same wear on the rails, maybe not quite as much as yours but definitely noticable. I have about 350 rounds through the gun and it has not affected performance. Luckily my mags so far are still holding but it is something I'll be watching. I wouldnt think your gun has to go back but if you call Kahr and they want the gun, turnaround time seems to run about 3 weeks, maybe a bit longer now due to the hoildays. JL

[jocko]

lots of other single stack 9's out there today. u can buy a cm9, cw9, cw40 , cw45 for around $400+-, I certainly don't call that over priced either. I don't know to many $400 plus gun that have as smooth a trigger , out of the box our any that can compete yet in the size and weight market either. Must be something kahr did right when we see new 9's coming on the market and ALL ARE HEAVIER AND BIGGER. that design and technology did not come out of a cr-cker box..

wow I can't believe the word cr-cker is a no no word:der:

[TriggerMan]

That split could be a drawback to loading a new mag to full capacity before the springs are broken in. That could put extra pressure on the internal seams in the mag. The way to avoid this would be to load 1 less round until the springs limber up. Note: This may not apply to you if you loaded 1 less round already. When you force that last round into the new mag it overworks the whole gun which may have also caused the chip in the frame.:smash:Do any of the various gun manufacturers support this theory? I'd love to see a source. I have always held that you set the spring by loading a mag to full cap and leave it that way for 48 hours. After that, shoot it like you stole it.

[TriggerMan]

Personally, I don't think $650 is a pricey gun. Check out the price of any highly regarded 1911. Check out the price of any HK. I bought a USED Sig 1911 for $699, I bought a used HK P30 for $799 and a P7 for $875.

If you have been a buyer of Hi-Point or Kel-Tec, YMMV.

[donnyboy108]

Personally, I don't think $650 is a pricey gun. Check out the price of any highly regarded 1911. Check out the price of any HK. I bought a USED Sig 1911 for $699, I bought a used HK P30 for $799 and a P7 for $875.

If you have been a buyer of Hi-Point or Kel-Tec, YMMV.

Glocks are under $500, and go bang every time.... Just sayin..;)

[Bawanna]

Glocks are under $500, and go bang every time.... Just sayin..;)

But, but, but, it's just a gl......naaah I'm not gonna say it. Carry on.

[kramm]

You missed the break. it was on the left corner where it makes a 90 deg turn.
Your right. I missed it. Wow thats not good at all. kahr will replace those, no problem.

[jocko]

mags should never split PERIOD

[Popeye]

Send the whole gun back and let them sort it out. This magazine problem does seem to be getting a little out of hand though. I agree $650 is not particularly a pricey gun, but it's sure not pocket change either for most folks who are expecting more for there money and part of the reason they bought a Kahr in the first place.

I get a kick out of when it a higher priced pistol and it has problems it seems to be no big deal the factory will fix it, but when it's an inexpensive KT it's looked apon as a POS.:confused:
Who's factory also stands behind there product.
I have a P3at that has proven itself to be more reliable than many .380's that cost two to three times as much. Still running all the original parts and mags after 800+rounds and hasn't missed a beat. ;)

[jocko]

I had 3 of them popeye with no luck like u had, nadda, zero, nothing. It is again all in the eyes of the beholder. U should be happy with ur P3AT, it is doing as designed. I wanted my 3 to also be that way but after 17 times back, well, u figure it out.:mad:

We get the same feed back on this forum with kahrs, when they don't work, one just cannot be happy whether he pays 10 bucks for the gun or $1100. Alot of kahr owners walk away from kahr due to issues that pisses them off.

In my case my 3 Kt's were POS:19:

[WMD]

mimi,

Take a look at how you put the slide back on the gun. There is a sharp corner of the slide that digs into that forward right hand rail when you install the slide (as a right handed person). That may be what is causing the scratches on the rail. I noticed that I was doing that on my PM9. Unless I am installing the slide perfectly straight, I would invariably scratch that rail.

In any case, and like others have said, it is no big deal. That rail is only a guide and does not hold the slide on the gun. I was told by Kahr that you could actually cut that piece of the rail off and the gun wouldn't notice it. :D

The rail on my PM9 looks like yours and I have a bunch of rounds through it (although, not near as many as Jocko) :)

[dimden]

The magazine on my CM9 cracked just where yours did; on both sides. I called Kahr and they said to send it in with a short note and they would replace it.

[jocko]

mimi,

Take a look at how you put the slide back on the gun. There is a sharp corner of the slide that digs into that forward right hand rail when you install the slide (as a right handed person). That may be what is causing the scratches on the rail. I noticed that I was doing that on my PM9. Unless I am installing the slide perfectly straight, I would invariably scratch that rail.

In any case, and like others have said, it is no big deal. That rail is only a guide and does not hold the slide on the gun. I was told by Kahr that you could actually cut that piece of the rail off and the gun wouldn't notice it. :D

The rail on my PM9 looks like yours and I have a bunch of rounds through it (although, not near as many as Jocko) :)

my slide polymer grip rails are absolutley perfect. The key is not getting the slide on the lower frame at any other angle than straight, or the steel rails are just gonna cut into the polymer portion on the grip. One can make this mistake one time and the damage as far as looks is done, Other than helping guide the slide on I would also think that top portion rail build up gives some stiffness to the grip also.

[Popeye]

Agree Jocko. The polymer portion of the rails on mine show no wear makes what so ever.

[wyntrout]

It's the upper corners... just the bent metal... no welds. There's something wrong with those mags. MY PM45 had to get a new frame because IT was damaging the mags... causing the upper rears to fail on all magazines... and Kahr duplicated that. Your gun could be like that or it's just the mags. IF any more fail like that, they might want to look at your pistol.
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2952&highlight=PM45+magazines+cracked&page=3

Wynn

[dimden]

The only thing I can think of that might be causing the mag to split like is that is when you have nose dive the mag is stuck in the well with the slide putting pressure on the mag. When I do a tap and rack nothing happens so you have to remove the stuck mag and pull hard to get it out. I learned to rack the slide back and lock it then try to remove the mag, but with the bullet hanging out it still puts a lot of pressure on mag.

[jocko]

Agree Jocko. The polymer portion of the rails on mine show no wear makes what so ever.

ur doing it right. No reral trick to it, other than one just studing it all out before forcing anything.

[CJB]

Do any of the various gun manufacturers support this theory? I'd love to see a source. I have always held that you set the spring by loading a mag to full cap and leave it that way for 48 hours. After that, shoot it like you stole it.

Actually.... springs take their set through continual flexing within the limits of their design criteria. This is exactly why locking a slide back does not really do as much for a spring as racking a slide continuously.

Also to that same point, the US Army has continually tested magazine springs with loaded magazines. To the best of my knowledge, in the mid 1970's they were still getting favorable results on original 1911 production 1911 .45 magazines - loaded since 1911!

[CJB]

Alot of kahr owners walk away from kahr due to issues that pisses them off.

Oh.... c'mon Jocko... a LOT Kahr owners? I think with Kahr support, more end up sticking with Kahr than would otherwise walk away from a similar problem with a less supportive manufacturer.

We do see folks say "I shot 60 rounds through my new Kahr and had three FTE's, so gave up for the day' (or something just as strangely weird). There is a process, a procedure, a protocol, and a precise prescription, but no panacea toward getting utter reliability from any autoloader. The smaller they are, the more narrow the window, the smaller the margin of error, the more more "in tune" the shooter must be with his mechanical device. Even that said, Kahr's run remarkably well with a wide variety of ammo - once broken in (and once having any issues corrected - rare as it is).

Jocko, you and me - fortunately so - are not the same, and neither is anyone else. The ammo that works for ME in MY Kahr may or may not work with you, or someone else, especially someone with less experience, considerably different size and muscle makeup, or with considerably different technique.

Folks just gotta realize you dont put any ol' feed in front of a specialized horse, and expect it to be on its 100 percent. Similarly, those little 150 cubic inch race engines that produce 1100 horsepower, do not do so when running on Val-u-line Easy-Mart gas. Our Kahr's ain't THAT finicky but, the example holds true... we need to keep the performance mindset...in mind!

[jocko]

tell that to a disgrunted kahr owner though. not arguing with your logic. They dohjn'[t expect to buy a kahr and have magazines businting ouot the back. It is not pandemic but it is an issue to many who realy don't see this on other gujn forums, rarely at all.

Jo doubt my wording "alot" might be alittle over done but we seem to belosing some owners due to horse sh-t stuff that shouldnot be present in a $600+ gun..My 2 cents,

User friendly guns are a must, when they get so damn small and so powerful in calibers things happen that is not gun related.Big guns normally don't act like small guns... Again try to tell the owner that it is he and not the gun. I don't want to see any kahr owner disgruntl;ed. Telling owners to clip off a half coil to make the gun work right, now is that "right". That is just not the norm with other gun makers. I think we lost quite afew kahr owners over the P380, I have no doubt about that.

[TriggerMan]

Actually.... springs take their set through continual flexing within the limits of their design criteria. This is exactly why locking a slide back does not really do as much for a spring as racking a slide continuously.

Also to that same point, the US Army has continually tested magazine springs with loaded magazines. To the best of my knowledge, in the mid 1970's they were still getting favorable results on original 1911 production 1911 .45 magazines - loaded since 1911!Not being clear I guess. I was questioning Ikeao7's overall theory about too much pressure.

Your response deserves comment as the FAQ from Wolfe Springs disagrees

They say, "Most new springs will take a set when they are first compressed. That means they will shorten up. This is a normal event and you should not be immediately alarmed. The greater the stress on the spring, generally the more set that will occur. All Wolff springs take this set into consideration. The ratings of the springs you receive are the ratings after the set has occurred. After set has taken place, the spring should remain essentially stable for the life of the spring."

And yes, I was aware of really old mags staying loaded and still working. Seems yet another topic I wasn't addressing.