Ballistic "Fingerprints"

[MO_Soldier]

Ok, for a couple years now I've been under the impression that they could identify the shooter of a scene by the identifying marks left by the gun on the fired bullet.

It was my impression that during testing of each new firearm in the past couple years, they recover the tested bullet and "finger print" it so that if a gun is ever used in committing a crime, they could recover the bullet and crosscheck that to a reference database of "bullet fingerprints" and to the respective owner of the gun.

Is this true?
How does this affect gun transfers between private individuals?
Is this process any different if you buy a gun as a LEO at LEO pricing, verses normal retail price as a civilian?

[Bawanna]

Ok, for a couple years now I've been under the impression that they could identify the shooter of a scene by the identifying marks left by the gun on the fired bullet.

It was my impression that during testing of each new firearm in the past couple years, they recover the tested bullet and "finger print" it so that if a gun is ever used in committing a crime, they could recover the bullet and crosscheck that to a reference database of "bullet fingerprints" and to the respective owner of the gun.

Is this true?
How does this affect gun transfers between private individuals?
Is this process any different if you buy a gun as a LEO at LEO pricing, verses normal retail price as a civilian?

I believe this is basically true. Not all states require it and usually guns this applies too have a spent case in an envelope in the box. It has no effect on transfers. One should do a basic Bill of Sale including date and time and name of buyer to protect yourself from future misdeeds if they occur.
It also has nothing to do with LEO or LEO pricing. If the state requires it they get it too.
Most of my new guns came with the case but not all. I'm not sure if Wa requires it or not to be honest.
I know California does for sure. (Big surprise there huh?)

[MO_Soldier]

I believe this is basically true. Not all states require it and usually guns this applies too have a spent case in an envelope in the box. It has no effect on transfers. One should do a basic Bill of Sale including date and time and name of buyer to protect yourself from future misdeeds if they occur.
It also has nothing to do with LEO or LEO pricing. If the state requires it they get it too.
Most of my new guns came with the case but not all. I'm not sure if Wa requires it or not to be honest.
I know California does for sure. (Big surprise there huh?)

So that is a state requirement, I always thought it to be federal. I wonder what my instance would be, living in Missouri and ordering from Massachusetts....who's law would apply?

I didn't receive a spent case, but could my FFL have removed that without me knowing possibly?

[MO_Soldier]

So that is a state requirement, I always thought it to be federal.

Not to disagree with you, I humbly accept your facts with no contention.
I just tend to be too detailed is all haha.

[TriggerMan]

So that is a state requirement, I always thought it to be federal. I wonder what my instance would be, living in Missouri and ordering from Massachusetts....who's law would apply?

I didn't receive a spent case, but could my FFL have removed that without me knowing possibly?My understanding is that it is a State requirement. Maryland photographs the spent casing and adds it to a database. Maryland State Police want to end the program as its ineffective and cases are solved at about $2.6M per case. Accuracy of testing can be a low as 40%.

Some manufacturers ship differently based on State, many just simplify and all cases get a spent shell.

When I look at an expanded SD round, it's hard to see how any barrel markings could be left for balistics tests. If you are a crook, just pickup your spent shells.

[Bawanna]

My understanding is that it is a State requirement. Some manufacturers ship differently based on State, many just simplify and all cases get a spent shell.

When I look at an expanded SD round, it's hard to see how any barrel markings could be left for balistics tests.

We got a bingo here. I think most just send the case weather it's required or not. I seriously doubt it has solved a single crime investigation but somebody someplace feels warm and fuzzy about it.

Most distributors would know if the case is required and send accordingly. Kind of like some of the special requirements for CA, safeties and loaded chamber indicators and such. Distributors know all that stuff. I suspect Missouri who's residents seem to have more than average common sense in most things would not require it but I seriously don't know for sure. No reason your dealer would take the case, never heard of that before.

[MO_Soldier]

Ok, well then I never received one and will look further into whether or not Missouri requires it for sure.
Thank you guys! These answers seem quite conclusive.

[getsome]

Not positive about this but I googled polygonal rifling to learn more about it and several of the hits said that ballistic testing can't be done on a bullet fired through a barrel with polygonal rifling....Anybody know if that is true or not?

[Micha2u]

I've read the same thing and believe that polygonal barrels give you a bullet that is useless from a criminal ballistics match standpoint.

[jocko]

getsome: that certainly is a new one to hear. lots of polygonal barrels out there.

[Tilos]

Anyone with a carbide scriber and stone could change the breach face machine marks that a fired case would produce, and even buff the firing pin to change it's "print"
How stupid is all this and this requirement in whatever state it applies too.
Political BS.
MO Soldier, I'm thinking "don't ask" anyone official, within your state government, and let your FFL decide what's required in your state.
He/she will know, as his/her business depends on knowing that stuff.

Tilos

[mr surveyor]

some folks watch too much hollywood t.v.;)

[MO_Soldier]

some folks watch too much hollywood t.v.;)

lol shut up...and I can't accurately defend myself by saying that isn't my source because, well, I don't know what my source is! haha

Being scientifically minded though, I bought into it no matter what the source. It's also valid though, as others on the forum have confirmed state's laws mandating such records.

[lugnut]

MO Soldier, I'm thinking "don't ask" anyone official, within your state government, and let your FFL decide what's required in your state.
He/she will know, as his/her business depends on knowing that stuff.

Tilos

Aint it the truth. I used to be amazed at how little most in the government and law enforcement know about gun law and guns in general. Now if I have a question I ask the people who need to know the right answer to stay in business and out of jail.

[TriggerMan]

lol shut up...and I can't accurately defend myself by saying that isn't my source because, well, I don't know what my source is! haha

Being scientifically minded though, I bought into it no matter what the source. It's also valid though, as others on the forum have confirmed state's laws mandating such records.
Two States, Maryland and New York require guns shipped into the State, to provide a spent shell so an image can be captured for a database.

Connecticut does it for guns used by Police or recovered by Police only,

California uses micro-stamping. Cases get marked upon fire with gun type and serial number!

Everyone else is lots smarter and saved millions $$$$$$

[MO_Soldier]

Two States, Maryland and New York require guns shipped into the State, to provide a spent shell so an image can be captured for a database.

Connecticut does it for guns used by Police or recovered by Police only,

California uses micro-stamping. Cases get marked upon fire with gun type and serial number!

Everyone else is lots smarter and saved millions $$$$$$

Wow great information! Did you find all of this from 1 source? What is it?
California's idea is a cool one(note the differences between cool and smart). A perp could just grind that stamping mechanism down, or buy a new barrel, etc.

[Bawanna]

I've heard of plans to serialize ammunition. Actually stamped into cases. Adding of course millions to the cost of manufacturing ammo. Reloaders would be out of business from what I heard.
Ranges would be called upon to make sure only the serialized ammo was used.

Haven't heard anything about this for a long time so hopefully it all just went away if we're lucky.

MO, don't lose any sleep over the whole case thing. It's not your responsibility. It's a non issue.

[TriggerMan]

Wow great information! Did you find all of this from 1 source? What is it?
California's idea is a cool one(note the differences between cool and smart). A perp could just grind that stamping mechanism down, or buy a new barrel, etc.If I told, I'd have to terminate you with extreme prejudice or at least serialize your butt.

kidding, of course.

It's from a liberal website for lawyers hell bent on finding ways to screw up other states. They love the idea of driving up ammo prices by having serial numbers added and complicating the sales. Idiots.

District of Columbia just added themselves to the micro-stamping camp.

http://www.lcav.org/content/recent_developments_policies.asp#BallisticIdentifi cation

[MO_Soldier]

I've heard of plans to serialize ammunition. Actually stamped into cases. Adding of course millions to the cost of manufacturing ammo. Reloaders would be out of business from what I heard.
Ranges would be called upon to make sure only the serialized ammo was used.

Haven't heard anything about this for a long time so hopefully it all just went away if we're lucky.

MO, don't lose any sleep over the whole case thing. It's not your responsibility. It's a non issue.

Ouch...that's ridiculous! I'm wondering how they could link that serialized ammo to a gun, and then to a shooter though.

Reloading would become like moon shining! haha. If that WERE to happen, whoever teaches me to reload can come to my 100+ acres and shoot any time. Whoever reloads and brings me ammo can come shoot per instance! haha

I'm not losing any sleep. My mind just races and eventually it stumbled upon this. Just another topic to discuss.

BTW Bawanna...I poked fun at you on another thread. Did you happen to see it? Just making sure I didn't offend you.
Post 39 http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9212&page=4

[TriggerMan]

MO Soldier

Just updated post 18 for you with a link

[mr surveyor]

lol shut up...and I can't accurately defend myself by saying that isn't my source because, well, I don't know what my source is! haha

Being scientifically minded though, I bought into it no matter what the source. It's also valid though, as others on the forum have confirmed state's laws mandating such records.



yeah, I used to do the science thinking thing.... then I learned all about Clif Clavin's "Buffalo Theory"....it's much simpler to adhere to when you start getting older;)

[MO_Soldier]

I'm not familiar with that one Mr. Surveyor...enlighten me?

[TriggerMan]

They are opposed to what we believe, BUT, this is a great resource if you dig in

http://www.lcav.org/content/recent_developments_2011.asp

[mr surveyor]

I'm not familiar with that one Mr. Surveyor...enlighten me?



well, it goes back many years from the silly sitcom "Cheers", but it made good sense to me at the time... this is Cliff (the Mailman) talking to his buddy Norm at the bar:

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the heard is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."



Need I say more:D


surv

[Tilos]

Mr.B:
You/we haven't heard much of anything about such things because the Oman is waiting for his 2nd term to unload his arsenal of BS.

He has even directed D senators and most Dems not to bring up anything gun related and said nothing after the Gifford shooting.

We can't let him get in as a lame duck 'cause life as we know it will be over.

Sorry to bring this up but it is relevent here.
Tilos

[MO_Soldier]

well, it goes back many years from the silly sitcom "Cheers", but it made good sense to me at the time... this is Cliff (the Mailman) talking to his buddy Norm at the bar:

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the heard is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."



Need I say more:D


surv

Bravo sir, bravo!

[tv_racin_fan]

Any barrel will leave a mark else the rifling did nothing. Unless of course you are shooting patched ball which then the patch gets the marks...

No matter how hard they try the tools get marks on them when being made.. all the marks are a bit different. Those marks transfer to barrels made with those tools... or chambers or what have you. Those marks transfer to the projectile in some form.

Tho I understand it aint near as simple as they make it look on TV to match gun to projectile.

As I understand it all guns come with the case.. some states require the FFL dealer to collect that case so you might never see it but it was included with the gun from the distributor.

[MO_Soldier]

As I understand it all guns come with the case.. some states require the FFL dealer to collect that case so you might never see it but it was included with the gun from the distributor.

Can you cite sources on this information? As it contradicts everyone else's statements so far.

[kramm]

I've bought new guns that came with a fired case and then bought guns without a fired case. At the same gun store. Asked about that one time and the store owner told me it was up to the manufacturer to send one or not.

[Bawanna]

Same with me. I never had a dealer that kept the spent case in those that came with one. Could just be my state I guess.

I'm finally expecting my 1911G MRI any day now. I'll see if it comes with a spent case or not.

[MO_Soldier]

I've bought new guns that came with a fired case and then bought guns without a fired case. At the same gun store. Asked about that one time and the store owner told me it was up to the manufacturer to send one or not.

So in your case it seems the suppliers used a blanket technique and just sent them to everyone no matter what state. Yet the other supplier didn't. Is that what you gathered?

Obviously it would be the manufacturer's choice to send one, unless state law required it. In that case they would have no choice, right? Or are you implying that they can document the images, and keep the casing?


Same with me. I never had a dealer that kept the spent case in those that came with one. Could just be my state I guess.

I'm finally expecting my 1911G MRI any day now. I'll see if it comes with a spent case or not.

Could they have possibly opened it and kept it without you knowing?

OOOOh nice! I want to look into the 1911's...they seem to be the most versatile and customizable pistols out there from my initial and VERY uneducated impression.

That would be very helpful. Drill the FFL for information on stuff like that! lol.

We have been provided the supporting source as to the laws mandating the casing documentation, but have yet to see a source arguing that all guns come with the casing.

IF that were true, and the cited information stating my state is not one that requires the casing is true, then I should have received a casing with my gun...but I didn't. So one must not be true.

[tv_racin_fan]

I don't think all manufacturers send a case with every gun... Some do some don't apparently. Apparently there are only a couple of states the require this so manufacturers may only ship cases with firearms that are legal to sell in that state.

Every newish firearm I have bought recently has one.

[MO_Soldier]

I don't think all manufacturers send a case with every gun... Some do some don't apparently. Apparently there are only a couple of states the require this so manufacturers may only ship cases with firearms that are legal to sell in that state.

Every newish firearm I have bought recently has one.

If you don't mind me asking;
1) What state do you live in?
2) What state do you order from?
3) Newish? I'm talking about brand spankin new guns from the manufacturer. Still with that new Kahr smell.

[Bawanna]

I just googled spent case with firearms and didn't get any solid answers. Some say they are proof rounds. Many agree with whats been said here and only a few states require them to be turned in by a dealer with additional checks. MA and Maryland I think were a couple.

I still stand by the don't worry on it. Don't matter where you buy it, you don't need it.

It's like the buffaloes that drink to kill off weak brain cells in the herd. Thereby making the herd stronger with or without a silly spent case in a sealed envelope.

One instance I saw in my search, a guy bought a new 1911 45 acp. Had a spent case serial numbered to the gun and signed by a tech. The spent case was a 357. Interesting.

[MO_Soldier]

Funny thing...I stumbled upon this article by the NRA.
Although it doesn't list states that do this, it goes on to say that no federal program will be implemented.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=233

[adam211]

Funny thing...I stumbled upon this article by the NRA.
Although it doesn't list states that do this, it goes on to say that no federal program will be implemented.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=233
that's nice source.

[MO_Soldier]

that's nice source.

Thank you!

[jlottmc]

The only states that I know of that require that stuff are New York, New Jersey, Mass. and South Carolina. SC just scraped theirs as did Maryland. They found it did nothing but waste money, and was too easy to change (just shoot a gun more than a little and the markings will change, or change a part, etc.) The encoded ammunition isn't gaining traction anywhere but CA and NY to my knowledge. All in all another dumb idea. As for makers including a fired case, since they have no idea where a weapon will end up most just include a case as a matter of fact. It is not a federal requirement, and is doubtful to become one. MO does not have anything of the sort and is considered to be a "free state" in regards to gun rights.

ETA guess I should have read the next page (I have my stuff set for mega pages) before I piped up. Going back into hiding now, carry on carry on.

[MO_Soldier]

The only states that I know of that require that stuff are New York, New Jersey, Mass. and South Carolina. SC just scraped theirs as did Maryland. They found it did nothing but waste money, and was too easy to change (just shoot a gun more than a little and the markings will change, or change a part, etc.) The encoded ammunition isn't gaining traction anywhere but CA and NY to my knowledge. All in all another dumb idea. As for makers including a fired case, since they have no idea where a weapon will end up most just include a case as a matter of fact. It is not a federal requirement, and is doubtful to become one. MO does not have anything of the sort and is considered to be a "free state" in regards to gun rights.

ETA guess I should have read the next page (I have my stuff set for mega pages) before I piped up. Going back into hiding now, carry on carry on.

No, that's helpful information. Thanks for the insight!
Do you happen to live in missouri?

[Bawanna]

No, that's helpful information. Thanks for the insight!
Do you happen to live in missouri?

Seek cover pal, you just accused a Texan of living in MO. Not a bad thing to me being born in MO myself but them Texas folks can be testy sometimes.

[MO_Soldier]

Seek cover pal, you just accused a Texan of living in MO. Not a bad thing to me being born in MO myself but them Texas folks can be testy sometimes.

Haha...Missouri has to be the best thing next to Texas as far as heritage and national pride!

As far as Texans bein testy, I won't argue. I've heard they like their Rocky Mountain Oysters....:eek:

[Bawanna]

Haha...Missouri has to be the best thing next to Texas as far as heritage and national pride!

As far as Texans bein testy, I won't argue. I've heard they like their Rocky Mountain Oysters....:eek:

I have to agree. If it wasn't so late in the game I'd relocate back to MO where I really belong. I got lots of people there. Actually my son making two trips (his first) this year have the whole crew considering I thinking. Just a better class of people. And they talk more normal too.
I can't comment on the oysters, I'm told I was partial to them myself in my youth although I seem to have lost the acquired taste. Can't say for sure it's been a long long time since I gave em a try.

[jlottmc]

...
As far as Texans bein testy, I won't argue. I've heard they like their Rocky Mountain Oysters....:eek:

They're best fried.

[tv_racin_fan]

If you don't mind me asking;
1) What state do you live in?
2) What state do you order from?
3) Newish? I'm talking about brand spankin new guns from the manufacturer. Still with that new Kahr smell.

Generally I have bought brand new guns and some barely used ones. In Georgia. As I recall all the "newish" handguns came with the "fired" case.

It's not a federal requirement...

[JohnR]

So if we live in a free state :cool: we can throw away the casing or reload it?

Does this apply to used guns? If I sell my gun to someone in Maryland (privately or via FFL transfer) and I don't have the casing, what happens?

[Bawanna]

So if we live in a free state :cool: we can throw away the casing or reload it?

Does this apply to used guns? If I sell my gun to someone in Maryland (privately or via FFL transfer) and I don't have the casing, what happens?

The envelope with the case is usually the first thing tossed into the trash, usually even before the owners manual and trigger lock.
I usually keep everything just cause I want to keep it all original. I've ordered many guns for the officers here and many just take the gun, extra mags if any and just toss the rest. No love apparently.

No worries on not having the case, the manufacture supplied it, mission accomplished. No responsibility on the owners part. Some states the dealer has to remove the case and turn it in to the state authority. Only a couple require that.

[Barth]

I have multiple barrels for several of my guns and frag ammo.

[tv_racin_fan]

So if we live in a free state :cool: we can throw away the casing or reload it?

Does this apply to used guns? If I sell my gun to someone in Maryland (privately or via FFL transfer) and I don't have the casing, what happens?

That would depend on the state but I believe it only applies to new guns sold in those states... But yes you can reload it or throw it out whatever you please.. You can always make a new one for the state if you need to. Apparently some FFL dealers in those states had to make some before most manufacturers started doing it.

[ltxi]

The envelope with the case is usually the first thing tossed into the trash, usually even before the owners manual and trigger lock.
..................

Certainly in my case for a defense weapon. Why would I want to keep potentially incriminating evidence around? Now, if I could just figure out how to really get rid of those pesky serial numbers on my newer, not cold carry guns.....:cool: