VA open carry loses gun then loses life

[aray]

Sad story:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/daniel-zimmerman/self-defense-tip-dont-chase-the-guy-who-just-stole-your-gun/

[TriggerMan]

When you have a concealed carry permit, but still Open Carry, I have to assume you are trying to make a political point. There has to be a better way to make that point.

OC is strategically and tactically a mistake. As an honest Citizen, you are always in reactive mode. The one advantage you have is the element of surprise. Why give that up? When you OC, you are making yourself a target. Common sense should tell you to carry a backup gun.

It's a damn shame this teen shooter was walking the streets, given his history.

[tv_racin_fan]

To each his own I suppose.

Care to expound on a better way to make the point that more citizens are out here carrying than the typical sheeple knows of?

There are pros and cons to each style of carry, which one you prefer may not be the same as I do and there is quite obviously not one sure fire best way.

When you get up in the morning you may already be a target...

[TriggerMan]

To each his own I suppose.

Care to expound on a better way to make the point that more citizens are out here carrying than the typical sheeple knows of?

There are pros and cons to each style of carry, which one you prefer may not be the same as I do and there is quite obviously not one sure fire best way.

When you get up in the morning you may already be a target...

I believe the best way to make your points is by educating and influencing legislators. You write them, you call them, you visit in numbers. You even (swallow hard) hire lobbyists. You join organizations who do this political work. OC strikes me as a confrontational approach. I don't see any plusses to it.

OC makes people very nervous and that does NOT promote greater acceptance. I'll concede that varies by State, but then, is there really a political problem in that State?

OC also draws the attention of LEOs. It wastes their time and yours. It can lead to deadly missunderstandings and accidents.

Proponents of OC claim there is a deterence factor. The sad story in front of us says otherwise. With the likelyhood of needing your weapon being extremely small, how big a factor could "deterence" be?

I just don't see OC as smart or necessary. Unfortunately, in some States, it's your only option. That wasn't so in the news item.

I feel strongly about it but everyone has to make their own decision about safety. We can disagree.

[tv_racin_fan]

I believe the best way to make your points is by educating and influencing legislators. You write them, you call them, you visit in numbers. You even (swallow hard) hire lobbyists. You join organizations who do this political work. OC strikes me as a confrontational approach. I don't see any plusses to it.

And this educates the SHEEPLE how exactly? I HIRE the NRA and GA Carry to lobby on my behalf.

OC makes people very nervous and that does NOT promote greater acceptance. I'll concede that varies by State, but then, is there really a political problem in that State?

Not being allowed to carry as I see fit makes me nervous.. it fact it irratates the fool out of me to have anyone try to tell me how I should actmor carry on about MY business. I try very hard not to try to tell others how to do so.

OC also draws the attention of LEOs. It wastes their time and yours. It can lead to deadly missunderstandings and accidents.

Hasn't done so for me or my son. Tho it did get the attention of some store personnel.. The gun shop guy just said "I saw that".. the cops in the store never even said a word... The knotthead at Walmart told me I was not allowed to carry like that unless I was LEO... funny thing he mentioned that he had a permit to carry concealed when our state doesn't issue such a thing.. it issues a permit to carry open or concealed.

Should we force children to keep their toys hidden since it has happened that accidents have occured and children were shot on account of the squirt gun they had?

Proponents of OC claim there is a deterence factor. The sad story in front of us says otherwise. With the likelyhood of needing your weapon being extremely small, how big a factor could "deterence" be?

Wait one such storey and the deterence factor is questioned forever? What if I post a link to story where the bad guys who were caught admitted they didn't committ a crime on that particular day because good ole boys was open carrying in that particular Waffle House on that day? I don't think a Ruger Old Army with a 7 inch barrel nor a Remington 1858 clone with 8 inch barrel nor a Ruger GP 100 with a 6 inch barrel would qualify as small handguns.

I just don't see OC as smart or necessary. Unfortunately, in some States, it's your only option. That wasn't so in the news item.

It isn't neccessary at all, however my son prefers to carry his handgun in a drop rig.. 'bout the only clothing that will cover it is a trenchcoat. On the other hand he doesn't mind a shoulder rig but generally the sheeple look at him kinda strangely when he wears his jacket in July in GA to cover the shoulder rig and a light shirt don't conceal it very well.

I feel strongly about it but everyone has to make their own decision about safety. We can disagree.

I feel strongly about it as well.

You don't think open carry is ok.. what about those who don't believe any carry is ok? Should we allow them to make the rules? Personally I think it should be up to the person who is actually carrying to decide how he wants to do so, not someone else.

[muggsy]

I have no problem with OC provided that you OC properly. This article points out what can happen to you if you don't OC properly.

[Ikeo74]

How many others reading this story want to give their life, just because you "can" open carry? Are you making a point like, I have a gun, see if you can take it? This guy would still be alive if he had concealed his weapon. Don't give your life just to show off your bigger than yours gun.:32:

[ripley16]

My son, who has a concealed permit, used to open carry anyway. It bothered me a great deal because he had no need to do this. An incident such as this is one of the reasons I tried to use to convince him to stop carrying in the open. He eventually stopped. I see very few people that do open carry here in Virginia, but when I do I see the reactions of people they interact with. Too many good reasons not to OC if you don't have to, IMHO.

[Longitude Zero]

I fully support our right to OC but I question the intelligence and tactical education of those who do. I agree you make yourself an automatic target. Many thugs are actually encouraged to act violently when they know a gun, other than their own, is presentt. Kinda like pouring gas on a fire.

Also by open carrying you short circuit the violators OODA loop and make it very easy for him/her. CC is the ONLY WAY for me.

[jimsea]

IMO with respect to OC.........the average gun owner does not have the skills or ability to recognize a situation and subsequently prevent a bad guy from getting the jump on them and relieving them of their advertised, much sought after (by criminals) and highly liquidable noise maker. LE and the like have the training, and special goodies to prevent the scenario that occurred in the news report.

This was a tragic story on many levels, and unfortunately was a lesson learn in blood/loss of life.

[JFootin]

I think OC is OK if you're at home, out in the country or in the woods, especially if you own some acreage with spread out room in the country, or go hiking in bear country. But in the city, in stores where you are brushing up close to some nefarious types, it is not wise at all. Police officers use duty holsters with security features, and they are trained to protect their weapon from unauthorized hands. And most perps know better than to try and grab a police officer's gun.

Most private people who carry guns do so in unsecured holsters, often without even a retention strap. A gun carried in such a manner should always be concealed by clothing. And even with it concealed, the owner should be situationally aware and guarding against any encroachment in his personal space because some BG could perceive that he is carrying and try for the gun.

Carrying a gun, CC or OC, is serious business. I think aray did a good thing to post this as a reminder for all of us to reflect on.

[Popeye]

This has been beath so many times I'm just going to sit it out and watch it come to it's usual ending. Popcorn anyone?http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/Smileys/classic/Popcorn.gif

[JFootin]

This has been beath so many times I'm just going to sit it out and watch it come to it's usual ending. Popcorn anyone?http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/Smileys/classic/Popcorn.gif

Yes! With extra butter, please! :001_tt2:

[muggsy]

Do those of you who think that it is foolish to openly carry a gun also think that it is foolish to openly drive a nice car? After all, you could get car jacked and murdered. Perhaps we shouldn't openly live in nice neighborhoods, or dress well and flaunt the fact that we work hard for a living and are successful. Sorry, but I can't understand that logic. The individual who lost his life was exercising a constitutionally guaranteed God given right. He should have been free to do what ever he pleased within the law without the fear of losing his life. What we really need to do in America is to stop cowering and take out the garbage.

[Popeye]

Yes! With extra butter, please! :001_tt2:

LOL you got it.:) Bottom line is ya take your chances know matter what ya do. I have my opinons on this topic but I'll hold them to myself. Darned shame someone or two had to die though. Nuff said.

[mr surveyor]

I want mine with cajun seasoning:)

[Popeye]

I want mine with cajun seasoning:)

mr surveyor Might have to make a trip to the store for that. LOL

[MLESa7990]

Do those of you who think that it is foolish to openly carry a gun also think that it is foolish to openly drive a nice car? After all, you could get car jacked and murdered. Perhaps we shouldn't openly live in nice neighborhoods, or dress well and flaunt the fact that we work hard for a living and are successful. Sorry, but I can't understand that logic. The individual who lost his life was exercising a constitutionally guaranteed God given right. He should have been free to do what ever he pleased within the law without the fear of losing his life. What we really need to do in America is to stop cowering and take out the garbage.


Sorry, but this is a terrible comparison.


I don't think anyone here is saying you should not be allowed to open carry if it is your right, but I agree with most and think it is a bit unnecessary when you can carry concealed. May I ask why you feel the need to flaunt your weapon? Please don't say "because it's my right" There should be a more valid, well though out reason than that.

Who knows? Could this entire ordeal been avoided had he been carrying concealed? I think so, but that's just my opinion.

Seems a lot safer to carry concealed in MOST scenarios/areas to me and I think this story proves it!

Again, I am not saying you shouldn't be allowed to choose whether you open or conceal carry. I myself do both, but I believe there are appropriate places to do both safely.

[Popeye]

Oh say does.......and the home of the brave. Light the torch and let the games begin. :D http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/Smileys/classic/Popcorn.gif

[DubDubU]

I wouldn't question the mans choice of carry. I cannot say if I would perform any better than he did in that situation. I would question his awareness and training.

[TriggerMan]

I feel strongly about it as well.

You don't think open carry is ok.. what about those who don't believe any carry is ok? Should we allow them to make the rules? Personally I think it should be up to the person who is actually carrying to decide how he wants to do so, not someone else.TV, I didn't say it wasn't OK (or that it should be illegal), I said it has NO plusses and isn't smart. Big difference.

I'm just not hung up on what the "sheeple" think of guns, I do care what are legislators DO about guns and gun laws. It is them I want taking my 2A side.

I hope you'll read the posts after yours and search the web for more information. OC confrontations with LEO are not all like the couple you have had. LEO, when getting a call on "man with gun", must react and confront. It puts everyone at risk NEEDLESSLY. I'd rather my local LEO were pursuing other, real criminal, activity.

Carry on.

[TriggerMan]

Do those of you who think that it is foolish to openly carry a gun also think that it is foolish to openly drive a nice car? After all, you could get car jacked and murdered. Perhaps we shouldn't openly live in nice neighborhoods, or dress well and flaunt the fact that we work hard for a living and are successful. Sorry, but I can't understand that logic. The individual who lost his life was exercising a constitutionally guaranteed God given right. He should have been free to do what ever he pleased within the law without the fear of losing his life. What we really need to do in America is to stop cowering and take out the garbage.I think the debate is is the WISDOM of OC, not of the right to OC. Your car, clothes etc "argument" is a non-starter. When I go help at the urban soup kitchen or volunteer at the Detroit location of the PBS studio, I don't wear my best suit or a Rolex. Wisdom. Why excercise the right to be dead wrong?

Here's a question for you. Do off duty cops OC, generally speaking? Do they OC their BUG?

Carry on

[Ikeo74]

I can't think of anything worse than being shot with your own gun after spending numerious shooting trips to the range to make sure the gun was 100% reliable and more trips to test your carry ammo to ensure you had the most leathal bullet for self defense available. Then to have a couple thugs take it away from me and decide to shoot me just for no reason other than to make sure I couldn't identify them in a line-up. :eek:

[LaP]

I'd like to try this method of open carry. I'll put my handgun in a chest rig... you know, the one's attached to the front of molle vests. It's the perfect way to open carry that big honken' S&W 500. AND, it's assured to get maximum attention from the gawking public.
Top it off with a camo hat that says "I don't call 911" and stroll around the Mall. It should make for an exciting day.:cool:

[TriggerMan]

I can't think of anything worse than being shot with your own gun after spending numerious shooting trips to the range to make sure the gun was 100% reliable and more trips to test your carry ammo to ensure you had the most leathal bullet for self defense available. Then to have a couple thugs take it away from me and decide to shoot me just for no reason other than to make sure I couldn't identify them in a line-up. :eek:Let's not forget the innocents shot later with that same gun.

[TriggerMan]

I'd like to try this method of open carry. I'll put my handgun in a chest rig... you know, the one's attached to the front of molle vests. It's the perfect way to open carry that big honken' S&W 500. AND, it's assured to get maximum attention from the gawking public.
Top it off with a camo hat that says "I don't call 911" and stroll around the Mall. It should make for an exciting day.:cool:
Which Mall, I've got some shopping to do. Let's see, I need a longer sling for my AR, some Gold Dots for my 1911, panties for the G/F,a nd I guess, I'll stop by my bank branch office and get some cash. I should be able to get cash dressed any way I want. I sure am not wearing a long coat to cover the AR.


Last thing, I refuse to let anyone tell me how to get there. I am leaving my driver's license at home and also the cap on my gas tank. Carbon emmisions? F 'em.

Carry on.

[TriggerMan]

Oh say does.......and the home of the brave. Light the torch and let the games begin. :D http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/Smileys/classic/Popcorn.gifIn many forums, after three posts which don't address the topic but serve only to strir the pot, you would be called out for being a TROLL.

[wyntrout]

Since he could have carried concealed and not been a target for theft, I must conclude that he was trying to make a statement... like he was insecure... small package or something like that... and tried to compensate with open display of his "weapon".

Like I always say, it's like the arcade game Whack-a-Mole, when the object is to whack the moles as they pop up. Visible threats are taken care of first. In this case the perp' saw a chance to improve his offensive capability and acquire a valuable tool for his "trade".

Driving a desirable and expensive car can get you the same results... the appearance of flaunting your wealth attracts and invites theft. Check with your insurance company... some car owners have to pay much higher premiums for their desirable "toys" because they have histories of higher theft than less "popular(to thieves)" cars.

This is by no means a unique occurrence since an OC gun was stolen a few months ago, but it didn't end in the demise of the owner. Many kids grow up with video games and spend their days blowing people away... good guys as well as the foes... after all, it depends on your perspective who the enemy is. They don't read books where they can learn empathy and respect for the feelings of others... others are targets and they kill them!

If you have the right to OC, you can do so, but you might as well wear one of those hats with a blinking light on top and put targets on your front and back. Not everyone will be impressed by your macho strutting, nor react in the way you think they should. Even unarmed, not all people who don't OC are sheeple or cowed by the presence of open firearms.

It's a shame that everyone doesn't respect everyone else and their property, but it's a fact of life that there are many dishonest and sneaky people around, looking for opportunities. I'm very aware of my concealed weapon and the responsibility for keeping it that way and in my control. I don't care how much training you've had, there will be lapses in situational awareness. You just can't be on High Alert all of the time and people who care can tell how aware you are and if you look ready to handle yourself if attacked.

I've always tried to look normal and not attract attention, while paying attention to everything going on around me... and developing situations. I try to blend in and not look apprehensive OR threatening.

This was written with some attempt at humor and reflects somewhat my opinions. I'm not trying to inflame the situation or start a fight and won't continue to respond within this thread.

JMOHO... TIC, somewhat.

Wynn:) :popcorn::banplease:

[jlottmc]

I wouldn't question the mans choice of carry. I cannot say if I would perform any better than he did in that situation. I would question his awareness and training.


Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. Look, police open carry, and they are shot more than most other people that do as well. Bottom line this world is not a pleasant or pretty place to be, especially when the excrement hits the rotating air circulation device. Like was said before, "ya pays your money and ya takes your chances". Now back to your regularly scheduled war, I'll be in the back with some popcorn too. :popcorn:

[TriggerMan]

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. Look, police open carry, and they are shot more than most other people that do as well. Bottom line this world is not a pleasant or pretty place to be, especially when the excrement hits the rotating air circulation device. Like was said before, "ya pays your money and ya takes your chances". Now back to your regularly scheduled war, I'll be in the back with some popcorn too. :popcorn:That the deceased OC'd isn't the big mistake. It's that he chased the perp while he, himself, was unarmed. Sounds like big ego was his downfall.

It reads like the compounding failures at the Japanese nuke reactors. First the man Open Carries, next he chooses a non retention holster, next he goes where bad guys hang out, next he loses struggle with the perp, finally he chases perp who is armed when he is not.

P.S. Don't CHASE perp even if armed when you know he is

Carry on

[Bawanna]

I was reluctant to even mention this since it always seems to stir a big ugly debate but this is the place.

Last week we had a "Man with a gun" call. Fella walking down a main road with an AR like rifle on his back and a pistol in a drop leg holster. Multiple officer response of course. Enroute county deputies radioed that they had encountered the same individual earlier and he was just looking for attention.

Officer located the guy and of course he had the prerequisite digital recorder.
One officer thought the guns were airsoft, didn't look real but the guy insisted they were real. Said he was doing nothing wrong and basically tried to insight a argument. Officers told him he was doing nothing wrong but if he caused fear and alarm to an average person that was a crime in itself.
He got huffy and asked why he was being detained. Officers told him he was not being detained and he could leave whenever he wanted but to remember what they said.

One of the detectives started monitoring Open Carry Org and sure enough our hero post there regularly. No mention of the above incident but he attended a National Night Out, he got his years mixed up, I could tell by who was narrating the SWAT demonstration but he obviously got close enough to film and record as much as he could.

So now he has his picture on the wall as a subject to be cautious of. His past record etc. Don't plan on getting anywhere very fast if your open carrying because the calls will come in and the officers are obliged to come chat with you and make sure all is ok. If alarm or panic is observed you'll get a ride in the back seat of a Crown Vic.

I think the guy was genuinely disappointed that the guys didn't make a bigger to do about the whole deal.

Frankly I wasn't even positive we were an open carry state, I thought so but wasn't certain. Comforting in that if I have a wardrobe fox paus and play peek aboo with my CBob it's not game over for me.

I'm not against Open Carry but it seems to be a perpetual test for Law Enforcement which I'm not fond of. We get enough perpetual test all day every day without dealing with Open Carry.

[MLESa7990]

I was reluctant to even mention this since it always seems to stir a big ugly debate but this is the place.

Last week we had a "Man with a gun" call. Fella walking down a main road with an AR like rifle on his back and a pistol in a drop leg holster. Multiple officer response of course. Enroute county deputies radioed that they had encountered the same individual earlier and he was just looking for attention.

Officer located the guy and of course he had the prerequisite digital recorder.
One officer thought the guns were airsoft, didn't look real but the guy insisted they were real. Said he was doing nothing wrong and basically tried to insight a argument. Officers told him he was doing nothing wrong but if he caused fear and alarm to an average person that was a crime in itself.
He got huffy and asked why he was being detained. Officers told him he was not being detained and he could leave whenever he wanted but to remember what they said.

One of the detectives started monitoring Open Carry Org and sure enough our hero post there regularly. No mention of the above incident but he attended a National Night Out, he got his years mixed up, I could tell by who was narrating the SWAT demonstration but he obviously got close enough to film and record as much as he could.

So now he has his picture on the wall as a subject to be cautious of. His past record etc. Don't plan on getting anywhere very fast if your open carrying because the calls will come in and the officers are obliged to come chat with you and make sure all is ok. If alarm or panic is observed you'll get a ride in the back seat of a Crown Vic.

I think the guy was genuinely disappointed that the guys didn't make a bigger to do about the whole deal.

Frankly I wasn't even positive we were an open carry state, I thought so but wasn't certain. Comforting in that if I have a wardrobe fox paus and play peek aboo with my CBob it's not game over for me.

I'm not against Open Carry but it seems to be a perpetual test for Law Enforcement which I'm not fond of. We get enough perpetual test all day every day without dealing with Open Carry.


I've seen multiple videos posted on youtube by people who are open carrying, get the police called on them then tape the whole incident and literally only seem to be doing it to start trouble with the officers. It's pathetic really, and as an LEO myself, annoys the sh*t out of me to watch.

Bottom line, I think, depending on where you live, if you open carry, be prepared to have the authorities called on you and don't be surprised when it happens. Oh yea, and don't be surprised when you are easily disarmed and subsequently murdered because the bad guy saw your weapon.

It is your right to open carry, just be warned of what can and has happened AND what can and has likely been avoided as a result of carrying concealed.

As a law abiding citizen, I know I wouldn't wanna deal with the hassle that would come as a result of having the police called on me for open carrying when I could have easily been carry concealed. Nor would I want my family to have to deal with my death because of something that happened as a result of open carrying.


And that's all you'll hear from me regarding this matter lol

[tv_racin_fan]

TV, I didn't say it wasn't OK (or that it should be illegal), I said it has NO plusses and isn't smart. Big difference.

I'm just not hung up on what the "sheeple" think of guns, I do care what are legislators DO about guns and gun laws. It is them I want taking my 2A side.

AH I believe it is the sheeple you need convince. One voice wont change a congressmans opinion but 10,000 might.

I hope you'll read the posts after yours and search the web for more information. OC confrontations with LEO are not all like the couple you have had. LEO, when getting a call on "man with gun", must react and confront. It puts everyone at risk NEEDLESSLY. I'd rather my local LEO were pursuing other, real criminal, activity.

I have read post after post after post on the topic. Everyone assumes an open gun is a target. YET there are apparently very few instances where someone who is openly carrying has been the target or the first target. I know of two instances, how many do you know of? I know of at least one instance where it deterred a crime.

Carry on.

The guy here was not situationally aware and got his gun jacked, made it worse by going after the guy who took it from him. Seems more a dig on his situational awareness and then his actions than it was a dig on his choice of carry style.

[jlottmc]

I've seen multiple videos posted on youtube by people who are open carrying, get the police called on them then tape the whole incident and literally only seem to be doing it to start trouble with the officers. It's pathetic really, and as an LEO myself, annoys the sh*t out of me to watch.

Bottom line, I think, depending on where you live, if you open carry, be prepared to have the authorities called on you and don't be surprised when it happens. Oh yea, and don't be surprised when you are easily disarmed and subsequently murdered because the bad guy saw your weapon.

It is your right to open carry, just be warned of what can and has happened AND what can and has likely been avoided as a result of carrying concealed.

As a law abiding citizen, I know I wouldn't wanna deal with the hassle that would come as a result of having the police called on me for open carrying when I could have easily been carry concealed. Nor would I want my family to have to deal with my death because of something that happened as a result of open carrying.


And that's all you'll hear from me regarding this matter lol



Here here. As an up and coming LEO, I second this.

Now back to the corner with me and my bucket of popcorn. :popcorn:

[Longitude Zero]

Do those of you who think that it is foolish to openly carry a gun also think that it is foolish to openly drive a nice car? After all, you could get car jacked and murdered. Perhaps we shouldn't openly live in nice neighborhoods, or dress well and flaunt the fact that we work hard for a living and are successful. Sorry, but I can't understand that logic. The individual who lost his life was exercising a constitutionally guaranteed God given right. He should have been free to do what ever he pleased within the law without the fear of losing his life. What we really need to do in America is to stop cowering and take out the garbage.

It is long past time to wake up more than 2 brain cells. Your comparisions are illogical/inadequate/uneducated. There are times when discretion is the better part of valor. Perhaps you mommy and daddy never taught you that just because you can do somehting does not mean it is a good idea to do so. For instance you can drive a car with your feet, that does not mean it is a good idea.

[muggsy]

Sorry, but this is a terrible comparison.


I don't think anyone here is saying you should not be allowed to open carry if it is your right, but I agree with most and think it is a bit unnecessary when you can carry concealed. May I ask why you feel the need to flaunt your weapon? Please don't say "because it's my right" There should be a more valid, well though out reason than that.

Who knows? Could this entire ordeal been avoided had he been carrying concealed? I think so, but that's just my opinion.

Seems a lot safer to carry concealed in MOST scenarios/areas to me and I think this story proves it!

Again, I am not saying you shouldn't be allowed to choose whether you open or conceal carry. I myself do both, but I believe there are appropriate places to do both safely.

I don't feel that I have to flaunt my weapon. I carry concealed. It's my contention that if it's legal to carry openly then one should be able to do so without fear. If our states enforced the laws and punishment of crime were swift and sure then fewer of us would feel the need to carry.

[jocko]

just be prepared to be stopped ALOT and questioned ALOT and more than likely to be invited out of a business/public builiding. It might be ur right to carry but I as a businessman it is also my right to say NOT IN MY BUILDING.

[muggsy]

It is long past time to wake up more than 2 brain cells. Your comparisions are illogical/inadequate/uneducated. There are times when discretion is the better part of valor. Perhaps you mommy and daddy never taught you that just because you can do somehting does not mean it is a good idea to do so. For instance you can drive a car with your feet, that does not mean it is a good idea.

I don't know why you felt it necessary to make a personal attack on me for expressing my opinion, but I'm far from uneducated. Since I managed to survive six years of active duty military service during the height of the Vietnam War
and have attained the age of sixty-five, I believe that I learned how to take care of myself and no longer require the help of my mommy and daddy. Perhaps your mommy and daddy should have taught you as well. Try behaving like an adult on this forum.

[Bawanna]

Well another open carry thread down the drain. Group hug. Lets talk about our wish list or next thing on the want list or pretty girls or good dogs.

I'm closing this one.