Oh yes, just par-a-noid

[Chief Joseph]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/


Proof once again, this admin will use any criminal devious attempt to push their anti gun agenda.

[Markis82]

Typical BS once again!! Funny how anyone in the article who advances the assertion that F & F was going to be used to advance gun regulations is from once side of the isle. Furthermore, they all mention evidence. You'd think if they had evidence they would show that evidence and not just say that there is evidence. They will find the evidence in the same place as the Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. Another GOP smoke screen!

[TheTman]

Well Markis, if you think you know more than the CBS news staff about the deal, why don't you clue us all in as to what they were trying to accomplish with fast and furious? Of course the accusations are going to be from the GOP, you think the democrats are gonna attack their own?
I was a bit surprised to see CBS, one of the liberal lapdog media, put out that story.

[muggsy]

Typical BS once again!! Funny how anyone in the article who advances the assertion that F & F was going to be used to advance gun regulations is from once side of the isle. Furthermore, they all mention evidence. You'd think if they had evidence they would show that evidence and not just say that there is evidence. They will find the evidence in the same place as the Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. Another GOP smoke screen!

Markis,
I suggest that you check the congressional voting record to find out just which side of the aisle has been pushing for restrictive gun control measures from the very beginning. Hint, you don't need to look a the right side of the aisle.
Muggsy

[Markis82]

Well Markis, if you think you know more than the CBS news staff about the deal, why don't you clue us all in as to what they were trying to accomplish with fast and furious? Of course the accusations are going to be from the GOP, you think the democrats are gonna attack their own?
I was a bit surprised to see CBS, one of the liberal lapdog media, put out that story.No, I didn't ay that!! I asked what evidence? If there really was evidence why wouldn't they make the so called evidence public?

[Markis82]

Markis,
I suggest that you check the congressional voting record to find out just which side of the aisle has been pushing for restrictive gun control measures from the very beginning. Hint, you don't need to look a the right side of the aisle.
MuggsyWe all know that there are more Democrats who support gun laws than Republicans. However, I was referring to the article presented here and saying this is nothing more than a political ploy.

[TheTman]

Come on Markis, you think they are going to find a memo saying "To pass more gun control measures, we are going to create a situation on the border bad enough the public will demand stricter gun control laws"? Wake up dude!
These guys know what they are doing and how to cover their tracks and lie to congress.

[Markis82]

Come on Markis, you think they are going to find a memo saying "To pass more gun control measures, we are going to create a situation on the border bad enough the public will demand stricter gun control laws"? Wake up dude!
These guys know what they are doing and how to cover their tracks and lie to congress.Did you read the article posted??? I was referring to statements like, "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals..." Saying OK What evidence? Anyone can make a statement like, "There's plenty of evidence..." However, when asked to produced said evidence, they seem have empty hands.

[TheTman]

My guess is the evidence is pieced together from all the memo's and documents and false testimony given to congress by Holder. No one thing is particularly damning, but taken as a whole the picture becomes clearer to those investigating this disaster. Kind of like putting together a criminal investigation of say a murder, many times no one piece of evidence plays a key role, but all the evidence taken together leads to a either a guilty or not guilty verdict. There are many pages to wade through and I'll leave it to those doing the investigation to wade through all that. I think the charges the congressmen are leveling at the Dept. of (un)Justice are pretty serious and they wouldn't be leveling them if they didn't have documents to back them up.

[Markis82]

My guess is the evidence is pieced together from all the memo's and documents and false testimony given to congress by Holder. No one thing is particularly damning, but taken as a whole the picture becomes clearer to those investigating this disaster. Kind of like putting together a criminal investigation of say a murder, many times no one piece of evidence plays a key role, but all the evidence taken together leads to a either a guilty or not guilty verdict. There are many pages to wade through and I'll leave it to those doing the investigation to wade through all that. I think the charges the congressmen are leveling at the Dept. of (un)Justice are pretty serious and they wouldn't be leveling them if they didn't have documents to back them up.If that were truly the case, they would have said that. It is all just political BS. Just using the F & F situation to forward a political agenda. Oh BTW, where are those weapons of mass destruction that they had all this "evidence" existed?

[TheTman]

What political agenda do you think they are trying to forward? I think they are just trying to get to the bottom of what the hell the DOJ was trying to do with F&F. Nothing much has come from it but a border agent being shot with one of the weapons they let walk. No big mexican cartels have been crippled, in fact they are just better armed than ever.
So was it a ploy to pass more gun control measures? What was the point of all this?
I think those are some good questions that deserve an honest response, and not all the sidestepping and misdirection that the ATF/DOJ et al, are doing. I think the big question is What did they intend to accomplish, and how? Personally I think it was to convince the public stricter gun control laws are needed, even though if they'd followed laws that were in place these guns would never had made it into the hands of the drug cartels. Obama has already admitted his control schemes are "under the radar" and this would seem to fit in that category. If they could dig deep enough this could probably be tied to Obama himself, IMHO.

[Markis82]

What political agenda do you think they are trying to forward? I think they are just trying to get to the bottom of what the hell the DOJ was trying to do with F&F. Nothing much has come from it but a border agent being shot with one of the weapons they let walk. No big mexican cartels have been crippled, in fact they are just better armed than ever.
So was it a ploy to pass more gun control measures? What was the point of all this?
I think those are some good questions that deserve an honest response, and not all the sidestepping and misdirection that the ATF/DOJ et al, are doing. I think the big question is What did they intend to accomplish, and how? Personally I think it was to convince the public stricter gun control laws are needed, even though if they'd followed laws that were in place these guns would never had made it into the hands of the drug cartels. Obama has already admitted his control schemes are "under the radar" and this would seem to fit in that category. If they could dig deep enough this could probably be tied to Obama himself, IMHO.No you've got what I said backwards. I meant, the GOP is exploiting the F & F to forward their Presidential aspirations. Enough said. These topics should be left for other forums. Here we should put aside politics and all talk about our common interest in guns and the like.

[tv_racin_fan]

If that were truly the case, they would have said that. It is all just political BS. Just using the F & F situation to forward a political agenda. Oh BTW, where are those weapons of mass destruction that they had all this "evidence" existed?

You might want to ask President Clinton and the democrats who were in congress during his administration that question.

[Markis82]

You might want to ask President Clinton and the democrats who were in congress during his administration that question.President Clinton didn't use the "evidence" of weapons of mass destruction as a lie to justify the invasion of Iraq!!!!

[O'Dell]

If that were truly the case, they would have said that. It is all just political BS. Just using the F & F situation to forward a political agenda. Oh BTW, where are those weapons of mass destruction that they had all this "evidence" existed?

Other than the few 'chemical' artillery shells we found, the last I heard they were in Syria and Iran.

[tv_racin_fan]

No he used it as justifications for other acts in Iraq. But according to democrats it wasn't a LIE when President Clinton said they had or were seeking to make or aquire WMD. It only became a LIE when President Bush got elected.

[Markis82]

No he used it as justifications for other acts in Iraq. But according to democrats it wasn't a LIE when President Clinton said they had or were seeking to make or aquire WMD. It only became a LIE when President Bush got elected.Things are different when a guy like W. puts American lives on the line for a lie!!!

[Markis82]

You all can justify anything to yourself you what. Go ahead and enjoy patting yourself on the back. It is useless talking to such closed minded people. Enjoy each other's righteous Republicanism!

[LaP]

This discussion went Fast & Furious into the gutter.

[getsome]

Don't be talkin bout ole slick Willy cause remember he took out that plant making asprins of mass destruction and took care of bidness over in Samilia...:bump2:

[TheTman]

I'd say more than half of the things done in D.C. are to further SOMEONE's political aspirations. EVERYONE wants to get re-elected to those cushy jobs.
I agree, this is getting pretty political, and we are definately not going to solve the world's problems here on a gun forum, nor are we going to change anyone's mind about much of anything.

So what gun do does everyone want Santa to bring them for Christmas?
I just ordered my Christmas gift.
S&W 686 6" .357 Deluxe 7 shot "TALO" edition:
http://kartalk.pccomps.com/686Deluxe.jpg

I also sent in my check for my pocket beast, unfortunately it will be a couple months until it's ready to ship: I got on the list early and was about number 180. They have a few hundred left on the preorder list before they can start selling to the public. Everyone that has received one though really loves the way it shoots, very little perceived recoil with the rotating barrel design, and your hand right under the chamber. And it comes with 2 magazines. That's nice as who knows how long before mags. Bobergarms.com has all the info on it if you're curious. It's frame is strong aluminum, which makes it a little heavier than the PM9, but it's 1/3 inch longer barrel is supposed to add more FPS/FPE. It's not a cheap gun by a long shot. I think as he gets to making more of them and selling to the general public his price is going to have to come down to be competive. Although I think he's going to keep making small batches to keep it a rare and therefore pricey item.

http://kartalk.pccomps.com/BobergXR9Sls.jpg

[LaP]

Don't be talkin bout ole slick Willy cause remember he took out that plant making asprins of mass destruction and took care of bidness over in Samilia...:bump2:

Wasn't it a Baby Milk Factory? :rolleyes:

[TheTman]

Don't you hate it when you've blown your years gun money and the year hasn't even started?

[LaP]

Don't you hate it when you've blown your years gun money and the year hasn't even started?


Never been a problem. I'm currently writing checks postdated to August 2016.

[Markis82]

As I said earlier, best to leave the political topics for other forums where it is more appropriate.

[O'Dell]

You all can justify anything to yourself you what. Go ahead and enjoy patting yourself on the back. It is useless talking to such closed minded people. Enjoy each other's righteous Republicanism!

Typically liberal - when you can't win an argument it's on the name calling. BTW, I resigned from the Republican Party in 1995, so you'll have to come up with something else.

[tv_racin_fan]

I aint never been a member of the republican party.. until a couple years ago I was registered as a democrat. I didn't vote for either President Bush but I did vote for President Clinton, once..

Still I love that WMD lie bit. Mention that more or less the same lie was told by President Clinton and the democrats in congress and watch em squirm.

[TheTman]

I consider myself an conservative libertarian independent. Perhaps even a Tea Party supporter. I support conservatives who are for limited federal power, no matter what party they belong too, such as the Dixiecrats from years gone by, but I think most of them have been forced out of the party by the liberal nut jobs that have taken over, so that leaves me supporting Republican candidates 95% of the time. There are a lot of politicians on both sides of the aisle I have issues with. Particularly moderate to liberal politicians masquerading as conservatives, as seems to be the case with the newest front runner in the GOP presidential race. I don't think he is a solid supporter of the 2nd Admendment. And that's one of my biggest concerns about him.

[muggsy]

We all know that there are more Democrats who support gun laws than Republicans. However, I was referring to the article presented here and saying this is nothing more than a political ploy.

The NRA doesn't agree with you. The NRA says that the treaty is a threat to private firearms ownership. Having been a life member of the NRA since 1972, I tend to believe them. You are free to believe what ever you want.

[John222]

I don't understand all the attention F&F is getting. Who care about the guns. They tried to use guns to track bad guys and it didn't work so well. So what if those guns were used to kill some border agents. The bad guys have lots of guns. They could have just as easily used some other guns. By the way, it's republicans doing all the shouting. And I'm surprised since it's the republicans and NRA that preaches "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!". Why aren't they saying that now... They are just looking for anything they to divert Obama's attention to BS accusations.

[John222]

The NRA doesn't agree with you. The NRA says that the treaty is a threat to private firearms ownership. Having been a life member of the NRA since 1972, I tend to believe them. You are free to believe what ever you want.


The NRA is not to be trusted. They have become an integral part of the republican party.

[Bawanna]

Safety cover off, close thread button glowing brightly. I'm using restraint here and gonna stick for a bit but know that I'm here and I'm watching.

Be nice boys and girls, we're all buddies here.

OK?

[muggsy]

The NRA is not to be trusted. They have become an integral part of the republican party.

The NRA has but one ax to grind and that is the second amendment. The NRA endorses candidates from both parties based solely on the candidates position on gun control issues. The fact that the NRA endorses so few democrats speaks volumes about the democrats. The NRA is apolitical and has been since its inception.

[muggsy]

Safety cover off, close thread button glowing brightly. I'm using restraint here and gonna stick for a bit but know that I'm here and I'm watching.

Be nice boys and girls, we're all buddies here.

OK?

Bawanna, rest easy. The truth hurts no one.
Muggsy

[crazymailman]

The NRA has but one ax to grind and that is the second amendment. The NRA endorses candidates from both parties based solely on the candidates position on gun control issues. The fact that the NRA endorses so few democrats speaks volumes about the democrats. The NRA is apolitical and has been since its inception.

This is true.

[Bawanna]

I tell ya what if you guys all send me 25 dollars and promise to be nice I'll reopen the Nano thread and we can argue about gun quality/advantages/disadvantages/personal preference/who knows the most important gun person in the world/you name it.

This RKBA stuff gives me the brain pain.

[Longitude Zero]

The truth hurts no one.

Yuppa. The truth is what it is.

[jeepster09]

Typical BS once again!! Funny how anyone in the article who advances the assertion that F & F was going to be used to advance gun regulations is from once side of the isle. Furthermore, they all mention evidence. You'd think if they had evidence they would show that evidence and not just say that there is evidence. They will find the evidence in the same place as the Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. Another GOP smoke screen!


I know a local dealer here in Minnesota that the ATF tried to set up :eek: on FAST and Furious. He has been working with the NRA on trying to uncover them.
This is no GOP smoke screen.:59:

[MikeyKahr]

The NRA is not to be trusted. They have become an integral part of the republican party.

....that continues to give Harry Reid an A rating. How republican of the NRA.

[TriggerMan]

I know a local dealer here in Minnesota that the ATF tried to set up :eek: on FAST and Furious. He has been working with the NRA on trying to uncover them.
This is no GOP smoke screen.:59:Was that for the Canadian Cartel? I thought F&F was only in border States. Help me out here.

[LMT42]

Other than the few 'chemical' artillery shells we found, the last I heard they were in Syria and Iran.

Got a good laugh from that one! Your clever sarcasm is appreciated.

[jeepster09]

Was that for the Canadian Cartel? I thought F&F was only in border States. Help me out here.

It was off Interstate 35 that runs north and south from Northen Minnesota to Mexico. An alledged agent tried selling a large quanity of guns for dirt cheap to set him up.....this is to hot to say more.:75:

[TheTman]

I heard that too, about the WMD being sent to Syria before the US invaded, They supposedly had some military pilot that was saying how they flew all the chemical warheads to Syria, then I heard nothing more. Nothing explainging it was if the guy was a hoax, or if he'd retracted the story or anything. Just quit hearing about it. Here, I found and old story on it: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in-syria-sada-says/26514/

[Chief Joseph]

I don't understand all the attention F&F is getting. Who care about the guns. They tried to use guns to track bad guys and it didn't work so well. So what if those guns were used to kill some border agents. The bad guys have lots of guns. They could have just as easily used some other guns. By the way, it's republicans doing all the shouting. And I'm surprised since it's the republicans and NRA that preaches "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!". Why aren't they saying that now... They are just looking for anything they to divert Obama's attention to BS accusations.

Simply an amazing view. If you can't see the problem with this whole thing then there would be nothing this CRIME INC. administration could ever do to wake you up. Obviously the most "transparent" administration ever was never required for your vote.

[Chief Joseph]

Typical BS once again!! Funny how anyone in the article who advances the assertion that F & F was going to be used to advance gun regulations is from once side of the isle. Furthermore, they all mention evidence. You'd think if they had evidence they would show that evidence and not just say that there is evidence. They will find the evidence in the same place as the Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. Another GOP smoke screen!

Typical excuse making for CRIME INC.

"On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

More Fast and Furious coverage:
Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico
Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."


I guess the email, in their own words doesn't meet your "evidence" requirement. I'm guessing you get that tingle up your leg too when mr whistle while he talks in chief is talking.


And I just love this from mr transparent in chief's racist doj head.


"On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us."

The "transparency" is just staggering. holder must have been too busy making sure black panthers get their voter intimidation booths set in time for election day.

[muggsy]

When Saddam Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire agreement that ended the Gulf War by evicting the U.N inspectors and failing to account for the destruction of his WMD, that in and of itself was tantamount to a declaration of war. That situation should have been rectified by, "The man from Hot Springs". Bush didn't need any other reason for going to war with Iraq. Whether or not Saddam actually had WMD was of no consequence. He had the means and ability to create WMD and use it at anytime that he wished. He had used WMD against Iran and Kuwait and on his own people in the past. There was nothing but the superior forces of the United States Military to prevent him from using WMD again. The S.O.B. is dead. Long live President George W. Bush. End of story.

[jlottmc]

Things are different when a guy like W. puts American lives on the line for a lie!!!

I keep seeing this and my trip to Bosnia also comes to mind, I can't let that one go. Nevermind the fact that the "reasons" we went there have been happening on all sides for all of history. The real reason we were sent there is just like Somalia it was a distraction technique. Does Lewinski ring any bells? Distraction, plain and simple. Not appreciated. We also had some HORRIBLE ROE's to live with, but no slick willy didn't send anybody anywhere based on a lie.

[muggsy]

Typical BS once again!! Funny how anyone in the article who advances the assertion that F & F was going to be used to advance gun regulations is from once side of the isle. Furthermore, they all mention evidence. You'd think if they had evidence they would show that evidence and not just say that there is evidence. They will find the evidence in the same place as the Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. Another GOP smoke screen!

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7198 You just can't trust that lying NRA.