Proper sight picture on CM9

[markrb]

I have always used 3 dot sights and I am having a bit of trouble adapting to the bar dot style. I never seem to know where to have the dot line up. If I have it touch the bar I seem to shoot to low. It seems that I need it to float, but that just doesn't seem like it's right to me.
I was thinking of getting a laser and getting accurate with that and once that happens I could figure out what my sight picture actually is, but that now seems kind of backwards to me.
At my range I can't get any closer then 25 yards to be able to bench rest it to figure it out and I think 25 yards wouldn't be a good range to figure out the sight picture.
I have searched the internet to find something on this, but I just can't seem to find any reasonable explanation.

Another thing that is happening and I wanted to see if anyone has noticed this or maybe it's just me. The first shot always seems to really be a flier. By that I mean I am not even hitting the target paper. After that it's better. Could something be settling in or is it more likely something I am doing differently on the first shot?

Thanks,
Mark

[Markis82]

Forget about the dots. Just line up the top edge of the front sight with the top edge of the rear sight to make what looks like a flat line across the top. Imagine you could lay a carpenters level across the top.

[John Law]

While I cant help with sight alignment on a CM9 since I never shot the bar dot, I think Markis82 has you on track. Regarding the first shot flier, my guess is you are anticipating the recoil and throwing the shot, trigger control, tightening grip etc. can also affect shot placement. I would bet after that initial shot and recoil you relax a bit and shoot the next rounds better. JL

[Cornhusker]

I'm also a little erratic with the bar/dot sights so I can't offer any advise. I usually set the dot on the bar and and have the POA in the middle of the target. That seems to work best for me but I still do better with what I'm more familiar with.

[Ikeo74]

Stacking the front dot on the rear square doesn't always shoot to point of aim for me. It is usually low. You are on the right track to raise the front dot off the rear white square to raise the point of aim. Trial and error should bring you on target in under 50 shots. I figure the center of the front sight white dot should be "point of impact" on the target. I never use the top of the front dot as my impact point. In plainer words, cover the center of the bull with the white dot.

[Ikeo74]

Forget about the dots. Just line up the top edge of the front sight with the top edge of the rear sight to make what looks like a flat line across the top. Imagine you could lay a carpenters level across the top.

In my opinion only, this sight picture markis is displaying would be a 6 oclock point of aim and I would have to raise the white dot to cover the bullseye as shown. We all see the target different.

[MO_Soldier]

In my opinion only, this sight picture markis is displaying would be a 6 oclock point of aim and I would have to raise the white dot to cover the bullseye as shown. We all see the target different.

FYI - The greatest military in the world is trained as Markis illustrated. That should speak for itself.

[Ikeo74]

Forget about the dots. Just line up the top edge of the front sight with the top edge of the rear sight to make what looks like a flat line across the top. Imagine you could lay a carpenters level across the top.


FYI - The greatest military in the world is trained as Markis illustrated. That should speak for itself.
FYI, military rifles don't have 2 dot sights! By the way I was an expert rifleman in the US Army.

[Markis82]

FYI - The greatest military in the world is trained as Markis illustrated. That should speak for itself.Yup!! Both targets 50 rounds at 15 yards with my CM9. These speak for itself. :D

[MO_Soldier]

FYI, military rifles don't have 2 dot sights! By the way I was an expert rifleman in the US Army.

As am I, currently. I fully aware of the sights that the Beretta has as well. the silhouette of the sight picture is identical, ignore the dots to figure out that alignment. THEN look at the dots and you'll see where exactly you should be "dotting" your "i". :-)

Thanks for serving btw.

[Ikeo74]

As am I, currently. I fully aware of the sights that the Beretta has as well. the silhouette of the sight picture is identical, ignore the dots to figure out that alignment. THEN look at the dots and you'll see where exactly you should be "dotting" your "i". :-)

Thanks for serving btw.
Back in the days when I was in the infantry, mid 50's, they were teaching marksmanship with the M1 Gerand using a 6 oclock hold. I, myself, never used the 6 0'clock hold. I always used the sight picture Markis is displaying. I figured a 6 0clock hold was just lobbing in the bullet and hopping it would hit the center of the bull. Most soilders shot low, not me. Thank you for serving as well!

[OldLincoln]

Thanks for the picture Markis and great shooting. Not bad from 5 yards but something I'll never see from 15! I tried to "barrow" (without any intention of returning :)) your pic but it won't let me. If you have a notion can you share it?

As for laser, RogerDoger told me how his CT laser improves his trigger pull. I haven't told him this, but when shooting his, I found now and then I'd bring the trigger right to the break and my laser would jerk down and right. Oops!! Guess it does and I need to practice the trigger more. For some reason that doesn't happen practicing my laserlite cartridge at home. Might be I know it's not going to go bang - at least it BETTER not go bang!

[Tilos]

OL:

Let RogerDoger load his gun with one round or an empty case while blocking your view of the gun and then you "shoot" it.

This always works for me, not knowing weather it's going to go bang or not will teach trigger control.

I'm always amazed how much hard work goes into proper shooting.

Tilos

[wyntrout]

I have three-dot sights on everything but the P40. I've noticed that the dots can vary quite a bit in how far the top of the dot is from the top of the front sight. That's something you have to adjust for. I always try to aim as the pictures indicate and don't really use the dots. They are there to help find the sights quickly and you have to get used to using your sights with whatever lineup it takes to hit your desired aiming point.

I don't, however, expect to use the sights that much in an SD scenario, so I switch to a combination of point shooting and try to time the trigger pull to fire the gun as it approaches my desired point of impact. I can't move around on the range, so that's still not optimum for practice, but standing still and taking careful aim makes you a still target, too, in SD situations.:eek:

Let me add, also, that videoing your shooting can help you correct problems. When my son was here and we went to the range, I videoed most of his shooting for pictures. When we played the videos back we saw that he was pushing the pistol forward and down on unexpected empty chambers, anticipating the recoil, I guess. He could never get the impacts up to the horizontal line running through the bullseye. This was really an eye-opener since I discovered the rear sight had moved and was shooting 3 or 4" high for me near the end of our shooting! He really has a problem, but at least he knows it now. He really liked that SA Champion, but the Novak adjustable rear sight had gotten loose or something. I had it dead on-sighted and used "Loctite" on the set screws which still seemed to be tight, so I'll have to find a stronger Allen wrench to try to readjust the sight.

Link to video of his "anticipation":

http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Patrick%20shoots/?action=view&current=Patrickclicksonemptychamber.mp4


Wynn:)

[Markis82]

Thanks for the picture Markis and great shooting. Not bad from 5 yards but something I'll never see from 15! I tried to "barrow" (without any intention of returning :)) your pic but it won't let me. If you have a notion can you share it?Thanks!! You can have my pictures. No worries. Just tell me how to post them so you can copy them. I can email them to you directly as an attachment.

[smike308]

New member here. Thought I would add my two cents worth to the discussion. I will back up what a couple of other posters have suggested, that the bar-dot, three dot and similar sight configurations are intended for a "flash" sight picture, as in a self defense scenario. Their purpose is simply to draw your sight/vision to the sights for a crude, but fast, sight alignment. For other uses, use the sights as if there were no bars, dots, etc. Like I said, my two cents worth. YMMV

[Bill K]

New member here. Thought I would add my two cents worth to the discussion. I will back up what a couple of other posters have suggested, that the bar-dot, three dot and similar sight configurations are intended for a "flash" sight picture, as in a self defense scenario. Their purpose is simply to draw your sight/vision to the sights for a crude, but fast, sight alignment. For other uses, use the sights as if there were no bars, dots, etc. Like I said, my two cents worth. YMMV


Welcome to KahrTalk!

Reading your response suggests to me that you're knowledgeable about CQC/SD shooting, not just square range shooting. Would that be correct?

[smike308]

Bill K.-- Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm a retired LEO and was our departments firearms instructor for several years. I have been fortunate to train under a couple of the masters of the art over the years.

[JFootin]

Bill K.-- Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm a retired LEO and was our departments firearms instructor for several years. I have been fortunate to train under a couple of the masters of the art over the years.

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure your knowledge and experience will be much appreciated around here. :yo:

[John Law]

smike308,
Welcome to the forum, I am sure all your years of training and experience will be very helpful. JL

[TheTman]

On that first shot, you're not leaving a lot of oil in the barrel after cleaning it are you? That will make the first stray off some. Make sure you run a patch or 2 up the barrel after oiling it.

Old Lincoln, I'm using Internet Explorer, and when I right click on Markis's picture, I can do a "save as" and then save it to my computer. Should work for you too

[markrb]

Thanks for all the tips. I will be sure to use them on my next range visit.

As for the potential for oil I always run a patch or two through after placing any oil. There is always the odd chance that some was left behind, but I am pretty thorough on my cleaning towards the point of anal.

[TriggerMan]

FYI - The greatest military in the world is trained as Markis illustrated. That should speak for itself.Actually, it doesn't speak to the real issue, which is, what does the manufacturer believe is correct or what do they assume you will be doing. The rub is there is no universal answer and manufacturers may change their mind at some point.

[John222]

Stacking the front dot on the rear square doesn't always shoot to point of aim for me. It is usually low. You are on the right track to raise the front dot off the rear white square to raise the point of aim. Trial and error should bring you on target in under 50 shots. I figure the center of the front sight white dot should be "point of impact" on the target. I never use the top of the front dot as my impact point. In plainer words, cover the center of the bull with the white dot.

That's exactly what I'm experiencing. If I line up the sight as pictured, I'm very low. Greater than several inches over 15 yrs. I have to raise the center white dot up high. If you put a level across the rear sight it would go thru the center of the white dot. And the white dot would be positioned dead on the bulls eye.

[muggsy]

As am I, currently. I fully aware of the sights that the Beretta has as well. the silhouette of the sight picture is identical, ignore the dots to figure out that alignment. THEN look at the dots and you'll see where exactly you should be "dotting" your "i". :-)

Thanks for serving btw.

I liked that answer. :D

[muggsy]

Anticipating recoil and increasing grip pressure just prior to let off can cause a shot to go low. It's generally more noticeable on the first shot than with subsequent shots.

[MO_Soldier]

I liked that answer. :D

Thanks Muggsy!

[jocko]

no doubt we all want to shoot our guns as accurate as we can. IMO kahrs are certainly geared for the defensive type of shooting, not range target type shooting. The looooonbg kahr trigger kinda IMO kills the "target aspect" of the gun. that being said, IMO one should shoot/train the way he feels comforatalbe at doing. POA shooting IMo is for kahrs a very good way to train for defensive skills. This is a close up gun, not IMO a 15-25 yards gun. Get good at 7 yards and under, get fast at 7 yards and under and IMO this can be achived alot easier and alot faster by POA shooting, seeing that front sight clearly and all the rest will fall into place without even thinking about it. Ur not gonna be looking for that back and front sight line up stuff in a defensive situation. U can get very accurate with POA shooting, screw those bulleyes, buy silhouette targets. I don't shoot good groups at all with my PM9 but at 7 yards and under I have no issue keeping every round in the FBI "Q": target silhouette. Its a big target but it is body size, keep um all in there and ur gonna do good in a critical situation...

[JFootin]

That's wise advice, Jocko.

[druryj]

Forget about the dots. Just line up the top edge of the front sight with the top edge of the rear sight to make what looks like a flat line across the top. Imagine you could lay a carpenters level across the top.

Well said. I long ago just blacked out the white bar and dot on my Kahr's front and rear sights. I get proper sight alignment and sight picture, then focus on the front sight. I found I was better off ridding myself of what I thought was more of an annoying distraction, (we don't need no steenkin' white dot...) for me anyway.